dannobre

iTrader: (3)

I have no issue with what you are talking about...being in the proper gear is a given...and that means you need to up and downshift as appropriate. That is just good driving technique.
Problem with a lot of new drivers that hit the track is that they are used to using the engine/clutch brake that they use on the street. At track speeds what tends to happen is that they miss shifts..release the clutch when the revs are not proper...pop the clutch and loose control of the rear end of the car.

It is often easier to teach ex auto drivers to heal toe than old MT drivers because they often dont have that habit

bse50

Then if you get really good at that "mistake" you can use it to your advantage, to enter slow corners with the proper slip angle, without having to brake too much.

I don't really get how even shifting can be a source of debate. Perhaps some people find it too hard to use 2 feet for 3 pedals?

1.3L

I'll wager a guess. They learned to drive in an automatic transmission car and were never given proper instruction on how to handle a manual transmission. They might possibly have been given some instruction with a manual, but not the real sports car oriented nitty gritty.

It would be easy for me to believe that properly stirring gears with a sports car is a dying art.

bse50

I agree, at least we don't see as many autotragics as you do there.

1.3L

A popular automotive magazine had a catchy slogan many years ago. I think it was Road & Track. That slogan was:

"Ban low performance drivers, not high performance cars"

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

That's my biggest beef with North American drivers poor skill levels and low licencing requirements. The move to graduatef licencing in a lot of places is helping. ... but the bar is so low

Fencig

I don't know...between my 3 vehicles I have over 500k miles driven. Those being a 91 escort gt, 79 jeep cj-5 and 06 CR Shinka. There are NO clutch replacements on any of them (or even repairs). I use my engine to slow me all the time. Actually the escort got it's 1 break pad change at about 125k and the 8 is still on the originals @75K (Don't know the jeep...I've never had to change them).

The clutch is a transition tool, nothing more. It does not slow you. nor does it speed you...it changes the gear that speed you or sloe you. They act as a team. If you want proof, take the clutch out and try to go beyond the gear you're in...then take the transmission out and try the go anywhere. Can't do it...well that is because even though they are separate they have to work together.

So...does the clutch slow you down? Only when you're burning it. Does the transmission slow you down? Yes if you are in a lower gear than optimum for your speed. Which leads to when are breaks needed...as a last resort or ending to a transition. Any more often and you will be inviting a crash on the hyway or the track.

You try to talk the talk but leave a bit behind. I doubt you've come down a mountain much less hit a track. After all you keep mixing up what a clutch, transmission and engine do in deceleration.

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bse50

You only use the engine to slow you down when going downhill. Otherwise you have to brake.

As for the going downhill\hitting a track part... you're wrong.

Fencig

If you really believe that then there is no hope for you. Have you ever noticed a sign as you enter a flat and level city that warns that an "engine break ordinance" is in effect? This isn't for the trucker safety...it's due to the noise of a semi engine breaking. They have to post it because the "professionals" would be using engine breaks if they didn't.

Go ask a grand Prix car driver if they use breaks at the outside of a turn or leave the them for the inside. Those that want breaks at the end use them less.

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bse50

Most trucks (diesels here) have exhaust valves to maximise engine braking to avoid overheating the brakes when all they have to do is slow down.
There's a difference between braking and slowing down, to slow down there's no problem in letting off the gas and then downshifting. To actually brake you have to use the brakes.

Ask any racer when to brake and he'll tell you "as late as possible". To brake late you have to brake hard, good luck doing that with engine braking. First you brake, then you're on the gass. There's no in between where you have time to passively slow down.
What do i know though, i only cover around 4k miles a year running around a track.

Anyway you're talking about a subject you can't even spell right, there's no point in arguing any further.

Fencig

ok let's go one step more. watch any racing event this year from start to end. pick your favorite car/team and count the clutch and break pad changes. i'm gonna say there will be 0/0...even in Daytona 500 and the 24hour at Le Mans.

So...coincidence these teams go that hard for that long without burning up a clutch or break pad...or could it be they use something you don't...say engine breaking?


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bse50

endurance teams use carbon brakes because regular ones wouldn't last 2 hours.

Sequential gearboxes (like theirs or mine) also like clutchless upshifting.

Fencig

Heh, didn't see your failed insult till now...did I hit a nerve? You can talk all night about how bad it is but I can post pics of original break pads and milage at the drop of a hat (serial numbers and all).

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Fencig

clutch less upshifting. now that is funny...there has to be a transition somewhere. I guess "if you can't find them...grind them" is now a racing term lol. Sadly every driver cam I see either uses a clutch or paddle auto.

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bse50

honestly i don't care.
If i were to save the pads i'd be replacing the car after every event. Actually... during every event.

Are you dumb or what? I don't hear any grinding in this vid... and I never use the clutch to upshift:

Fencig

yep hit a nerve, you start with an attempt to insult my IQ (again). I'm not going to watch a video posted by some no name that started with an insult...and you think I'm dumb or what? BTW...I'm a tad more intelligent than I let you think.

Even if a single word you have said is true for you, you have already stated that you do not have a stock drive train. So...by that fact alone we can all discount any comment you have made since the thread was about a stock automatic.

Have a good day, thanks for playing!

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bse50

Well, you started talking about endurance cars and their brakes and clutches. I told you a couple of things you didn't consider and showed an example of a car with a similar drivetrain (inline engine, rwd, sequential gearbox) to show you how it's done. That's pretty much it.

On my car the clutch lasts 7\8k miles, the brake pads 3k. Just saying.

Again, engine braking is good for coasting or slowing down and may be of some help to step the tail out when trailbraking but that's pretty much.

Fencig

see post above...

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dannobre

iTrader: (3)

You actually think you can drive at track speed and pace.... and use your engine to slow down. .....you are highly deluded

bse50

shhh, he knows more!

RastaRx-8

sorry gonna have to say you are fishing for a reason here.. a few other more experienced members here have tried to prove you otherwise and you keep arguing

good luck on the track.

@BSE50- i know you got some drivetrain swap but less than 10k per tranny/brakes seems like yer doin somethin wrong or only drag racing like an idiot

1.3L

So you're driving down a level street and you take your foot off the gas pedal. What happens?

bse50

My car has a bike engine and transmission. The clutch doesn't like the extra grip that 2 wheels with sticky tyres offer. The brakes... well they're brakes. I treat both the clutch and the brake pads as consumables being the miles i'm talking about are track miles
If I only drove on b roads they'd last 4 times as much

That's part of what I elaborated on later: coasting and slowing down

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

You slow down ....relatively slowly in a slowing down sense though...and no where near fast enough for slowing down at the track.

There are too many generalizations on both sides here. My bias as you have seen is track and high performance driving.....and you need to use the brakes.


Cruising around on the street you can let off and coast to a stop if everything else is equal.....but it is hugely more boring

Fencig

Either way, track or street, you use both engine breaks and break pads. To say otherwise means you have no clue about physics or how an ICE works. Unless you keep it at steady or increasing throttle through the entire drive and the hit a mountainside to stop you use engine breaking...or you're tossing it in neutral which wastes gas, energy and is just plan foolish. Just like you cannot come to a complete stop using engine breaking alone without a long runway or another immovable object.

However, you do remind me of why I walked away from this forum for so many years. Too much cranial **** inversion. Most of the vocal ones have a fixed view and just do the echo chamber method till everyone else gives up. I have had a good snicker about this thread though. Sometimes it's nice to see some things don't change.

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