In market but nervous
11-26-2003, 11:52 AM
#26
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As for Ike, I think he's contributed useful comments in the past, but I think he's simplifying a bit too much. I mean, saying something like "last time I checked engines of all types make heat" is a bit much. Come on, Ike, but whatever the problem, it was fixed in the last few years in the Japanese models, so it was not the direct fault of the engine itself.
Still, I think it's useful to have a devil's advocate around to keep us honest
Still, I think it's useful to have a devil's advocate around to keep us honest
11-26-2003, 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by IkeWRX
Maybe you could find some way to combat my arguments and prove me wrong rather than taking the easy way out?
For instance, I'll start to prove myself wrong... :p
It's not the last 2K that's the problem it's somewhere in the middle that the car felt flat.
So what's the use of a higher redline if the car doesn't make good use of every a portion of the curve?
Find out how much a renesis weighs compared to the similar hp Honda, Subaru, Nissan, Dodge, whatever 4 cylinder engines.
Prove to me 1.3L of displacement is the same as 1.3L of displacement in a cylinder engine.
Ike
Maybe you could find some way to combat my arguments and prove me wrong rather than taking the easy way out?
For instance, I'll start to prove myself wrong... :p
It's not the last 2K that's the problem it's somewhere in the middle that the car felt flat.
So what's the use of a higher redline if the car doesn't make good use of every a portion of the curve?
Find out how much a renesis weighs compared to the similar hp Honda, Subaru, Nissan, Dodge, whatever 4 cylinder engines.
Prove to me 1.3L of displacement is the same as 1.3L of displacement in a cylinder engine.
Ike
As for a Nissan, the USDM 240's feel slug slow with their truck tranny's, even with a force induction kit added. It takes a JDM SR20DET kit to make them move.
Dodge better move with 2.4 liters of displacement.
As for the B18C5, those weight in slightly over 250 lbs...engine alone, not counting the intake manifold, exhaust manifold, alternator, and all of the goodies. I used that engine to compare because it makes close to 200 horses, just like the A/T Renesis without the extra power ports.
11-26-2003, 11:59 AM
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Originally posted by IkeWRX
Call me slanted all you like, but I agree with your points and have said the very same things many times. However I still fail to see the benefit of the rotary over a high output lightweight 4 cylinder. Which I believe is what we were discussing.
Call me slanted all you like, but I agree with your points and have said the very same things many times. However I still fail to see the benefit of the rotary over a high output lightweight 4 cylinder. Which I believe is what we were discussing.
The Silvia's in Japan yes...there are some that had 2000 cc's without a turbocharger. AE86, but that's from the mid eighty's...the old RX-7's...but we are talking about contemporary times and what is available new...
11-26-2003, 12:20 PM
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Why does it have to be N/A and RWD? I'm just curious of the actuall engine weights of 4 cylinders that are comparable in power, not the application it's used in. But even that aside, the 13B weight I found was 288 for the engine alone, it should be pretty close even though there were a few changes due to the application.
If anyone is really curious to see the difference in weight I'll do someresearch and find the weight of the engine in the S2K and a 4 cylinder boxer engine. Those should be pretty good comparisons since the boxer also has a low center of gravity and the S2K is about the same output and used in a similar RWD application. But someone needs to figure out how much a renesis weighs, because I sure as hell can't find it.
Ike
If anyone is really curious to see the difference in weight I'll do someresearch and find the weight of the engine in the S2K and a 4 cylinder boxer engine. Those should be pretty good comparisons since the boxer also has a low center of gravity and the S2K is about the same output and used in a similar RWD application. But someone needs to figure out how much a renesis weighs, because I sure as hell can't find it.
Ike
11-26-2003, 12:47 PM
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Originally posted by -=Zeqs=-
Aside from the S2k, how many other N/A 4 cylinder engines can you name off the top of your head that are used in a FR sports car with a 50/50 weight distribution and is available readily in the United States?
Aside from the S2k, how many other N/A 4 cylinder engines can you name off the top of your head that are used in a FR sports car with a 50/50 weight distribution and is available readily in the United States?
11-26-2003, 01:15 PM
#31
Pro Audentius
The RX8 presskit states the weight of the Renesis to be comparable to an all-aluminum inline 4-cylinder. Of course, they don't state what size 4-cylinder.
I'm not sure what the normal dimensions for an engine are, but one other thing to note is that the Renesis is no taller than the tranny -- it's only 338mm in height; additionally, the tranny is mounted behind the engine, well amidships.
I'm also in the market (timeframe for purchase a few months from now). I continue to be impressed with the design characteristics of the RX8, compared to the conventional designs that define the current offerings from other makes. Everything about the design seems much more optimal, either for interior space and utility, or for the sportscar handling and performance. To say nothing of the unique styling. The only other vehicle I currently see making as bold a statement is perhaps the Infiniti FX. Everything else seems pretty boring...
I'm not too concerned with the first-year model issues noted above. I don't see them precluding my picking one up in a few months.
Ciao!
Darren
I'm not sure what the normal dimensions for an engine are, but one other thing to note is that the Renesis is no taller than the tranny -- it's only 338mm in height; additionally, the tranny is mounted behind the engine, well amidships.
I'm also in the market (timeframe for purchase a few months from now). I continue to be impressed with the design characteristics of the RX8, compared to the conventional designs that define the current offerings from other makes. Everything about the design seems much more optimal, either for interior space and utility, or for the sportscar handling and performance. To say nothing of the unique styling. The only other vehicle I currently see making as bold a statement is perhaps the Infiniti FX. Everything else seems pretty boring...
I'm not too concerned with the first-year model issues noted above. I don't see them precluding my picking one up in a few months.
Ciao!
Darren
11-26-2003, 01:25 PM
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I guess I am to the point of purchase as well. The deal at my dealership is 29,500 for 6spd, grand touring, spoiler, rotary package. Seems like a pretty good deal. The winter weather scares me more than anything else.
11-26-2003, 01:33 PM
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Re: In market but nervous
Originally posted by GiantXTC
I am in the market for getting an RX8. I was really impressed with the looks, performance, price and the practicality. I test drove it and loved it even more. What makes me nervous is the fact that I have spent over 10 total hours looking threw these threads and overall have seen many problems associated with the new 30k dollar car. Rough cold starts, really bad mpg, rare but still happening blown engines, flooding engines, sucking too much oil.
Someone tell me that these things are not happening. Maybe I am reading this wrong and there are 2 people on this forum giving a sour taste in my mouth. Believe me I dont want to believe that this is happening. I want this car very bad but I dont want to take my car in the shop every week b/c my car floods or i am getting 12 mpg. The mpg alone would **** me off. I have a 2002 accord coupe 5 spd and it says 26- 33 and when i drive it hard i get 28 mpg. If a car says 18- 24 then by God I should be able to drive in at 8 rpms and still get maybe 15 mpg. You are right when you say that people complaining scares people like me. The last thing you want to hear about a sexy sports car with practicality is that it is riddled with problems.
Like I said, maybe im mistaken. what i do like is that most the people who have problems still stand by their baby. that has to mean something. And dont chew me out for simply making my observations. Im not bashing anyones ride. I might just wait till the 05 but who knows.
I am in the market for getting an RX8. I was really impressed with the looks, performance, price and the practicality. I test drove it and loved it even more. What makes me nervous is the fact that I have spent over 10 total hours looking threw these threads and overall have seen many problems associated with the new 30k dollar car. Rough cold starts, really bad mpg, rare but still happening blown engines, flooding engines, sucking too much oil.
Someone tell me that these things are not happening. Maybe I am reading this wrong and there are 2 people on this forum giving a sour taste in my mouth. Believe me I dont want to believe that this is happening. I want this car very bad but I dont want to take my car in the shop every week b/c my car floods or i am getting 12 mpg. The mpg alone would **** me off. I have a 2002 accord coupe 5 spd and it says 26- 33 and when i drive it hard i get 28 mpg. If a car says 18- 24 then by God I should be able to drive in at 8 rpms and still get maybe 15 mpg. You are right when you say that people complaining scares people like me. The last thing you want to hear about a sexy sports car with practicality is that it is riddled with problems.
Like I said, maybe im mistaken. what i do like is that most the people who have problems still stand by their baby. that has to mean something. And dont chew me out for simply making my observations. Im not bashing anyones ride. I might just wait till the 05 but who knows.
GIANT: I think its all about expectations:
w/ the RX8:
Do expect:
Good quality / Looks, inside and out
Great Handling / Steering, Braking, all well balanced.
Some conveneience, 4 door/4 seat sports car.
pecularities of the rotary
DONT Expect:
247/250 hp
over 20mpg consistently
mainetnace free
11-26-2003, 01:33 PM
#34
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O.R.A.,
I think Zeqs meant to say, "How many other N/A 4 cylinder engines with the same HP as the Hi-power Renesis can you name off the top of your head that are used in a FR sports car with a 50/50 weight distribution and is available readily in the United States?"
I think Zeqs meant to say, "How many other N/A 4 cylinder engines with the same HP as the Hi-power Renesis can you name off the top of your head that are used in a FR sports car with a 50/50 weight distribution and is available readily in the United States?"
11-26-2003, 01:46 PM
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I guessed as much...
By the way, I've always equated the 1.3 rotaries to 2.6 liter 6-cylinder engines, since each rotor has three combustions per revolution.
The power output of the Renesis is about right for a 2.6 liter 6-cyl motor, but in a much smaller (and I guess lighter) package.
By the way, I've always equated the 1.3 rotaries to 2.6 liter 6-cylinder engines, since each rotor has three combustions per revolution.
The power output of the Renesis is about right for a 2.6 liter 6-cyl motor, but in a much smaller (and I guess lighter) package.
11-26-2003, 02:51 PM
#36
Pro Audentius
One data point I remember but cannot find (I believe it may have been one of the articles or Mazda press releases from early-Spring 03) noted that the Renesis was approximately 100 pounds lighter than an "all-aluminum V6 of similar power output". I always took that to mean the VQ35 series from Nissan, but that's just conjecture on my part.
11-26-2003, 02:55 PM
#37
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Originally posted by cardinal35
The winter weather scares me more than anything else.
The winter weather scares me more than anything else.
Regards,
Gordon
11-26-2003, 02:58 PM
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Re: In market but nervous
Originally posted by GiantXTC
I am in the market for getting an RX8. I was really impressed with the looks, performance, price and the practicality. I test drove it and loved it even more. What makes me nervous is the fact that I have spent over 10 total hours looking threw these threads and overall have seen many problems associated with the new 30k dollar car. Rough cold starts, really bad mpg, rare but still happening blown engines, flooding engines, sucking too much oil.
Someone tell me that these things are not happening. Maybe I am reading this wrong and there are 2 people on this forum giving a sour taste in my mouth. Believe me I dont want to believe that this is happening. I want this car very bad but I dont want to take my car in the shop every week b/c my car floods or i am getting 12 mpg. The mpg alone would **** me off. I have a 2002 accord coupe 5 spd and it says 26- 33 and when i drive it hard i get 28 mpg. If a car says 18- 24 then by God I should be able to drive in at 8 rpms and still get maybe 15 mpg. You are right when you say that people complaining scares people like me. The last thing you want to hear about a sexy sports car with practicality is that it is riddled with problems.
Like I said, maybe im mistaken. what i do like is that most the people who have problems still stand by their baby. that has to mean something. And dont chew me out for simply making my observations. Im not bashing anyones ride. I might just wait till the 05 but who knows.
I am in the market for getting an RX8. I was really impressed with the looks, performance, price and the practicality. I test drove it and loved it even more. What makes me nervous is the fact that I have spent over 10 total hours looking threw these threads and overall have seen many problems associated with the new 30k dollar car. Rough cold starts, really bad mpg, rare but still happening blown engines, flooding engines, sucking too much oil.
Someone tell me that these things are not happening. Maybe I am reading this wrong and there are 2 people on this forum giving a sour taste in my mouth. Believe me I dont want to believe that this is happening. I want this car very bad but I dont want to take my car in the shop every week b/c my car floods or i am getting 12 mpg. The mpg alone would **** me off. I have a 2002 accord coupe 5 spd and it says 26- 33 and when i drive it hard i get 28 mpg. If a car says 18- 24 then by God I should be able to drive in at 8 rpms and still get maybe 15 mpg. You are right when you say that people complaining scares people like me. The last thing you want to hear about a sexy sports car with practicality is that it is riddled with problems.
Like I said, maybe im mistaken. what i do like is that most the people who have problems still stand by their baby. that has to mean something. And dont chew me out for simply making my observations. Im not bashing anyones ride. I might just wait till the 05 but who knows.
Here it is folks...
Every new car has problems. This one will have more because of how innovative it is, ie. the engine and concept.
The Rx-8 is worth every dollar, and I believe it is the best deal of the year as far as cars go. The only other car I would consider for this price is an Infiniti G35.
11-26-2003, 05:48 PM
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Originally posted by IkeWRX
1.) As far as I know a 1.3L Rotary translates into a 2.6 liter for a piston engine which makes it so so in the HP per liter department.
2.) Prove it, because I just don't buy it, my car with 4 doors, and a heavy AWD system weighs about the same as an RX-8. Balance maybe, weight I have yet to see anyone prove the renesis weighs less than a high output 4 cylinder.
3.) Maybe a little too comfortable, the car doesn't pull that hard and seems to start falling short 2k before redline. (just observed in my testdrive)
4.) Sounds good, however those far less moving parts have had far more problems throughtout the years than most of the high output piston engines that weigh about the same, or less.
1.) As far as I know a 1.3L Rotary translates into a 2.6 liter for a piston engine which makes it so so in the HP per liter department.
2.) Prove it, because I just don't buy it, my car with 4 doors, and a heavy AWD system weighs about the same as an RX-8. Balance maybe, weight I have yet to see anyone prove the renesis weighs less than a high output 4 cylinder.
3.) Maybe a little too comfortable, the car doesn't pull that hard and seems to start falling short 2k before redline. (just observed in my testdrive)
4.) Sounds good, however those far less moving parts have had far more problems throughtout the years than most of the high output piston engines that weigh about the same, or less.
Why do you post in this forum, do you have nothing better to do? You don't own the car, you're not interested in buying the car, you're not interested in rotary engines (at least not in a positive way) - and all that wouldn't be a problem, except for the fact that you're so negative about the car. So what's the point?
11-27-2003, 02:39 AM
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Originally posted by IkeWRX
Why does it have to be N/A and RWD? I'm just curious of the actuall engine weights of 4 cylinders that are comparable in power, not the application it's used in. But even that aside, the 13B weight I found was 288 for the engine alone, it should be pretty close even though there were a few changes due to the application.
Why does it have to be N/A and RWD? I'm just curious of the actuall engine weights of 4 cylinders that are comparable in power, not the application it's used in. But even that aside, the 13B weight I found was 288 for the engine alone, it should be pretty close even though there were a few changes due to the application.
11-27-2003, 02:41 AM
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Originally posted by O.R.A.
Miata
Miata
11-27-2003, 02:43 AM
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Originally posted by Speed Racer
O.R.A.,
I think Zeqs meant to say, "How many other N/A 4 cylinder engines with the same HP as the Hi-power Renesis can you name off the top of your head that are used in a FR sports car with a 50/50 weight distribution and is available readily in the United States?"
O.R.A.,
I think Zeqs meant to say, "How many other N/A 4 cylinder engines with the same HP as the Hi-power Renesis can you name off the top of your head that are used in a FR sports car with a 50/50 weight distribution and is available readily in the United States?"
11-27-2003, 02:46 AM
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Originally posted by noahprtlnd
Why do you post in this forum, do you have nothing better to do? You don't own the car, you're not interested in buying the car, you're not interested in rotary engines (at least not in a positive way) - and all that wouldn't be a problem, except for the fact that you're so negative about the car. So what's the point?
Why do you post in this forum, do you have nothing better to do? You don't own the car, you're not interested in buying the car, you're not interested in rotary engines (at least not in a positive way) - and all that wouldn't be a problem, except for the fact that you're so negative about the car. So what's the point?
He does help provide a wider perspective though, which is hard for me to swollow my pride and admit. If only the Mazda engineers were reading some of the posts...
11-27-2003, 03:29 AM
#44
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Originally posted by -=Zeqs=-
Some say he's jealous...other's say he's being realistic...most feel that the way he expresses his point of view is very rude, condescending, and obnoxious...for the most part though, anytime someone has a conflicting view, it does seem obnoxious.
He does help provide a wider perspective though, which is hard for me to swollow my pride and admit. If only the Mazda engineers were reading some of the posts...
Some say he's jealous...other's say he's being realistic...most feel that the way he expresses his point of view is very rude, condescending, and obnoxious...for the most part though, anytime someone has a conflicting view, it does seem obnoxious.
He does help provide a wider perspective though, which is hard for me to swollow my pride and admit. If only the Mazda engineers were reading some of the posts...
I guess you guys can add the Elise that will soon be on US shores. We're talking less than a ton and about the size of a Miata, and it will strike fear in the hearts of all but the most highly modded cars on the roads and tracks (unless you drive an Enzo or a select few other supercars). I would imagine the toyota/yamaha 2ZZ-GE engine they are using in the USDM car is lighter than the renesis but it will be putting out 190bhp so not quite up to the numbers of the renesis. Why is it so freaking hard to find engine weights, for any engine??? Hopefully I'll be able to have some legitimate numbers soon enough.
Ike
11-27-2003, 04:15 AM
#45
Engin weights (in llb) :
K20A:________RSX Type-R__275
F20A:________S2000______281 (don't know if this is diff from the F20C)
Rover K Series:_OG Elise____189
Rover K VVTA:__Elise 111S__206 ? unofficial based on the head weight delta
2ZZ-GE:_______Celica GTS__246 (Toyota headers and intake)
Renesis:_______RX8_______275
Orig S1 Elise was < 750kg. US elise will be > 950kg.
K20A:________RSX Type-R__275
F20A:________S2000______281 (don't know if this is diff from the F20C)
Rover K Series:_OG Elise____189
Rover K VVTA:__Elise 111S__206 ? unofficial based on the head weight delta
2ZZ-GE:_______Celica GTS__246 (Toyota headers and intake)
Renesis:_______RX8_______275
Orig S1 Elise was < 750kg. US elise will be > 950kg.
Last edited by RobDickinson; 11-27-2003 at 06:26 AM.
11-27-2003, 06:03 AM
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The F20A was used in JDM preludes and some accords I believe and it's a SOHC, the F20C (S2000 engine) is a DOHC. Good info Rob, hopefully I'll be able to dig up the F20C and Boxer info.
Ike
Ike
11-27-2003, 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by -=Zeqs=-
Perfect example. The Miata also weighs under 2600 lbs, has damn good weight distribution, RWD, and exceptional handling characteristics. So we have the S2K, Miata, and Boxter?
Perfect example. The Miata also weighs under 2600 lbs, has damn good weight distribution, RWD, and exceptional handling characteristics. So we have the S2K, Miata, and Boxter?
The Miata comes under 2400 pounds and the Toyota under 2300.
I heard that the Mazdaspeed Miata will have about 180hp (with a turbo)
11-27-2003, 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by O.R.A.
The Boxster is not FR. If mid-engines count, then there's also the Toyota Spyder.
The Miata comes under 2400 pounds and the Toyota under 2300.
I heard that the Mazdaspeed Miata will have about 180hp (with a turbo)
The Boxster is not FR. If mid-engines count, then there's also the Toyota Spyder.
The Miata comes under 2400 pounds and the Toyota under 2300.
I heard that the Mazdaspeed Miata will have about 180hp (with a turbo)
11-27-2003, 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by IkeWRX
Thanks Zeqs, I was just going to ignore it because I was so tired of answering
I would imagine the toyota/yamaha 2ZZ-GE engine they are using in the USDM car is lighter than the renesis but it will be putting out 190bhp so not quite up to the numbers of the renesis. Why is it so freaking hard to find engine weights, for any engine??? Hopefully I'll be able to have some legitimate numbers soon enough.
Ike
Thanks Zeqs, I was just going to ignore it because I was so tired of answering
I would imagine the toyota/yamaha 2ZZ-GE engine they are using in the USDM car is lighter than the renesis but it will be putting out 190bhp so not quite up to the numbers of the renesis. Why is it so freaking hard to find engine weights, for any engine??? Hopefully I'll be able to have some legitimate numbers soon enough.
Ike
11-27-2003, 10:58 PM
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Originally posted by IkeWRX
The older MR2 is probably a better comparison than the Spyder. It at least had some guts, and damn they handled nice.
The older MR2 is probably a better comparison than the Spyder. It at least had some guts, and damn they handled nice.