Lawsuit?
09-22-2003, 03:11 PM
#26
Registered
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dudes.. that's not necessary. Lets not take this further.. I don't want the thread to turn into country bashing. You guys can work out your differences in e-mail if you feel like it.
09-22-2003, 03:20 PM
#27
Registered
Originally posted by Tresch
kazesupra -
"not to be a pest, but I think your answer to the 30hp drop lies in my earlier post."
Noted, but if you look, the chassis dyno numbers most people have been finding are at 180 or less. if you compare that to the engine dyno numbers mazda claims of 238 horsepower, that's over a 25% drop in horsepower, which is bad even for an AWD vehicle. standard loss for a manual, rwd vehicle is around 15%, and the RX8 SHOULD do a pretty good job, what with the carbon fiber driveshaft and all that.
kazesupra -
"not to be a pest, but I think your answer to the 30hp drop lies in my earlier post."
Noted, but if you look, the chassis dyno numbers most people have been finding are at 180 or less. if you compare that to the engine dyno numbers mazda claims of 238 horsepower, that's over a 25% drop in horsepower, which is bad even for an AWD vehicle. standard loss for a manual, rwd vehicle is around 15%, and the RX8 SHOULD do a pretty good job, what with the carbon fiber driveshaft and all that.
Have you read the threads where it was discovered by Paul Yaw that the RX-8 engine likely falls back to a safe mode (reduced power) at high rpm when it detects that it's running in a stationary vehicle? Have you read the threads where RotaryNews revealed that Mazda had told them about the safe modes preventing accurate power measurements on a stationary chassis dyno? Did you read in that same thread the reason that the HP was downgraded from 247 to 238? (It was due to long-term durability concerns of the catalytic converter, related to US emissions equipment requirements) Have you read the thread where a GTechPro owner matched and beat the 1/4 mi times reported by the magazines in April? (His best was a 14.0 at 101 mph!)
My RX-8 is plenty fast - 95% of the time on a run to redline, I do not feel the power go flat or fall off from 6500 - 9000 rpm. I don't believe that the chassis dyno runs are accurate, and I find the explanations about engine safe modes and reduced power on a dyno entirely plausible and likely - I believe them. Further testing is planned once a code reader is available to read engine codes on a dyno run, which will confirm or reject the safe mode theory. Until then, to my mind all those sub-200 hp chassis dyno runs are invalid and useless.
Regards,
Gordon
09-22-2003, 03:25 PM
#28
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Fort Myers, FL
Posts: 558
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
okay
We are talking 9 hp.
Mazda says the car performance is unchanged.
There isn't a consistent price for per horsepower purchasing on cars in the marketplace.Some cars have 184 HP and cost $36K others have 260 hp and cost $30K.
Anyone who drove the car drove it as a 238hp car. They only THOUGHT they were driving a 247hp car.
If you use the torque/hp calculations posted in the forum that give all that techical data and mulitple formulas, it actually comes out to 237. something in actual horsepower given that all other data is correct.
We now know. We have timeslips.
The value of the car really is unchanged over 9 hp. (see 3rd point)
Does the fact that the rear bumpers on a Mercedes 500S bounce nearly off the car at impact and Mercedes says form is more important than function OR that major damage occurs at rear impact on G35's stop people from buying either of those cars? (source: Dateline NBC the last 2 weekends) These are issues that REALLY bother me and yet people drive them around. It is like a perspective check.
Also, I agree that people are SUE crazy in our country. The state of FL just added hundreds of new lawyers to esquire status (finished the bar). Hmm. They will need work now - what will they do?
It was a shocker for we that OWN the car more than anyone else and WE have been given our CHOICE again. It's over as of Oct 1. The Mazda RX 8 is a 238hp car in the US as per the company. You either accept it or give it back. If you are shopping for a car, compare it to the competition for what it is. It still is a value - I re-shopped and came back to the same conclusion.
IN a perfect world, all of these tests would have to be completed on cars NOT by manufacturers and all data available to us BEFORE the car would be sold - safety, engine, perfomance, etc. Now er only rely on magazines to tell us and who knows what $$$ passed to hands before that. WHen I bought my BMW I received MANY surveys (I lost count) on satisfaction. I recieved one on my Millennia S in 2001. The numbers game? probably. Facts are difficult to get on anything anymore.
We are talking 9 hp.
Mazda says the car performance is unchanged.
There isn't a consistent price for per horsepower purchasing on cars in the marketplace.Some cars have 184 HP and cost $36K others have 260 hp and cost $30K.
Anyone who drove the car drove it as a 238hp car. They only THOUGHT they were driving a 247hp car.
If you use the torque/hp calculations posted in the forum that give all that techical data and mulitple formulas, it actually comes out to 237. something in actual horsepower given that all other data is correct.
We now know. We have timeslips.
The value of the car really is unchanged over 9 hp. (see 3rd point)
Does the fact that the rear bumpers on a Mercedes 500S bounce nearly off the car at impact and Mercedes says form is more important than function OR that major damage occurs at rear impact on G35's stop people from buying either of those cars? (source: Dateline NBC the last 2 weekends) These are issues that REALLY bother me and yet people drive them around. It is like a perspective check.
Also, I agree that people are SUE crazy in our country. The state of FL just added hundreds of new lawyers to esquire status (finished the bar). Hmm. They will need work now - what will they do?
It was a shocker for we that OWN the car more than anyone else and WE have been given our CHOICE again. It's over as of Oct 1. The Mazda RX 8 is a 238hp car in the US as per the company. You either accept it or give it back. If you are shopping for a car, compare it to the competition for what it is. It still is a value - I re-shopped and came back to the same conclusion.
IN a perfect world, all of these tests would have to be completed on cars NOT by manufacturers and all data available to us BEFORE the car would be sold - safety, engine, perfomance, etc. Now er only rely on magazines to tell us and who knows what $$$ passed to hands before that. WHen I bought my BMW I received MANY surveys (I lost count) on satisfaction. I recieved one on my Millennia S in 2001. The numbers game? probably. Facts are difficult to get on anything anymore.
Last edited by RodsterinFL; 09-22-2003 at 03:31 PM.
09-22-2003, 03:25 PM
#29
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: US, Massachusetts
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<p>Having been born in a country far from USA, I generally dislike all this American "I'll sue you for millions" attitude (sorry guys).</p><p>From Tresch messages I did not understand (missed?) whether he even owns RX-8 or not. If he does not, he would probably have to buy the car fist in order to get any standing in such suit.</p><p>I believe that Mazda's response to horse-power debacle was very commendable. The thing that continues to bother many owners as well as potential buyers is the controversy about real life acceleration tests and dynos. We have read on this forum some reports trying to explain how and why the car may deliver less power to the wheels than mere traction losses (DSC, trying to keep optimal combustion modes etc.) Probably, many of us would like that Mazda be more forthcoming with some explanations. I hope it will do this. I understand, that Mazda (or any corporation to this matter) can not (and should not) give any quick comments to avoid any legal pitfalls. On the other hand, the controversy is already out there and Mazda should be interesting in putting it to rest.</p><p>I can view Tresch's move as a valid attempt to press Mazda for some more openness. It might make sense to gather relevant information. I doubt there is any grounds for a lawsuit at this moment however.</p>
09-22-2003, 03:27 PM
#30
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Long Island
Posts: 581
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by Gord96BRG
You haven't done enough reading here - you're presuming that the chassis dyno tests run by owners that achieved +/- 180 hp are accurate and representative of the engine's real output.
Have you read the threads where it was discovered by Paul Yaw that the RX-8 engine likely falls back to a safe mode (reduced power) at high rpm when it detects that it's running in a stationary vehicle? Have you read the threads where RotaryNews revealed that Mazda had told them about the safe modes preventing accurate power measurements on a stationary chassis dyno? Did you read in that same thread the reason that the HP was downgraded from 247 to 238? (It was due to long-term durability concerns of the catalytic converter, related to US emissions equipment requirements) Have you read the thread where a GTechPro owner matched and beat the 1/4 mi times reported by the magazines in April? (His best was a 14.0 at 101 mph!)
My RX-8 is plenty fast - 95% of the time on a run to redline, I do not feel the power go flat or fall off from 6500 - 9000 rpm. I don't believe that the chassis dyno runs are accurate, and I find the explanations about engine safe modes and reduced power on a dyno entirely plausible and likely - I believe them. Further testing is planned once a code reader is available to read engine codes on a dyno run, which will confirm or reject the safe mode theory. Until then, to my mind all those sub-200 hp chassis dyno runs are invalid and useless.
Regards,
Gordon
You haven't done enough reading here - you're presuming that the chassis dyno tests run by owners that achieved +/- 180 hp are accurate and representative of the engine's real output.
Have you read the threads where it was discovered by Paul Yaw that the RX-8 engine likely falls back to a safe mode (reduced power) at high rpm when it detects that it's running in a stationary vehicle? Have you read the threads where RotaryNews revealed that Mazda had told them about the safe modes preventing accurate power measurements on a stationary chassis dyno? Did you read in that same thread the reason that the HP was downgraded from 247 to 238? (It was due to long-term durability concerns of the catalytic converter, related to US emissions equipment requirements) Have you read the thread where a GTechPro owner matched and beat the 1/4 mi times reported by the magazines in April? (His best was a 14.0 at 101 mph!)
My RX-8 is plenty fast - 95% of the time on a run to redline, I do not feel the power go flat or fall off from 6500 - 9000 rpm. I don't believe that the chassis dyno runs are accurate, and I find the explanations about engine safe modes and reduced power on a dyno entirely plausible and likely - I believe them. Further testing is planned once a code reader is available to read engine codes on a dyno run, which will confirm or reject the safe mode theory. Until then, to my mind all those sub-200 hp chassis dyno runs are invalid and useless.
Regards,
Gordon
If you have done some reading, Tresch, you would know that there is this issue about the RX8 bumping into a safe mode. ANd I have read in NUMEROUS places of people getting sub-15 second 1/4 mile times. I will never understand how everyone is so dependent on a friggin' NUMBER. My old Eclipse made only 210 HP at the crank...and that was far from slow. The RX8 holds its own against a turbo Eclipse and is so much more for the money you pay.
Plus most people are dynoing cars on a fresh car, when power gains with miles driven.
But of course you will never see past this. All you see is 238. Then you do your little math equations and think the car makes only 200HP. OK, think that. Best of luck to you.
09-22-2003, 03:47 PM
#32
Registered
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gord96BRG -
Very good points! And yes, I have read these posts and they did provide for glimmers of hope. Though they are, of course, all speculation at the moment. You are correct however in that we really need an engine code reader, or better yet, an accurate engine dyno to get real answers.
What set me back, however, were the 1/4 mile times. Now, before you jump, realize that I know the car is not just made for drag. I don't plan on drag racing my rx8 if I ever get one. I do like to Autocross, but that's another topic.
The truth is that without an accurate dyno reading, all we have to guess the actual power output of the car are through quarter mile times by comparing it to other cars of similar weight. So far, I personally haven't seen any times below 15 seconds by actual owners. I'm not even going to consider mazdas times, or even the pre-production models that magazines have tested. When owners can drive stock rx8s into the mid 14s on a consistant basis I'll start believing more. For now, I see rx8s pulling times not much better than front wheel drive cars with open differentials, worse tires, and 40hp lower hp ratings.
Very good points! And yes, I have read these posts and they did provide for glimmers of hope. Though they are, of course, all speculation at the moment. You are correct however in that we really need an engine code reader, or better yet, an accurate engine dyno to get real answers.
What set me back, however, were the 1/4 mile times. Now, before you jump, realize that I know the car is not just made for drag. I don't plan on drag racing my rx8 if I ever get one. I do like to Autocross, but that's another topic.
The truth is that without an accurate dyno reading, all we have to guess the actual power output of the car are through quarter mile times by comparing it to other cars of similar weight. So far, I personally haven't seen any times below 15 seconds by actual owners. I'm not even going to consider mazdas times, or even the pre-production models that magazines have tested. When owners can drive stock rx8s into the mid 14s on a consistant basis I'll start believing more. For now, I see rx8s pulling times not much better than front wheel drive cars with open differentials, worse tires, and 40hp lower hp ratings.
09-22-2003, 04:01 PM
#34
Registered
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, just a little self defense here..
First off, before you start slandering me, PLEASE take the time to read all my posts. I've said that lawsuit isn't necessarily what I'm trying to push, it was just a topic name (note the question mark). I've said that I'm not so worried about power as I am about honesty and integrity of the manufacturer. And finally I've said over, and over, and over again that I don't care about the 9 horsepower drop. I care about the supposed 30 horsepower drop.
I'm not doing this to be selfish or to pick a fight or to slander or to try to get more power out of the car from mazda or for personal gain. I'm doing this out of curiosity. I'm just asking questions! I'm trying to gather information to get a real answer. Is that so wrong? Do I deserve to be belittled for trying to find the truth?
I'm reading every thread in here and taking everything with an open mind. If you've seen timeslips below 15 seconds... BY ALL MEANS POST THEM! Lets try to gather all the real information we can and come to REAL conclusions, rather than making generalizations and assumptions about each others goals and intents.
And lastly.. pleas please PLEASE.. before you say another negative thing about me or anyone else in the thread. READ EVERY POST CAREFULLY.
Again.. I don't care about 9 horsepower! I'm saying it looks like it's a lot bigger than that. I want someone to proove me wrong, but you're putting all your effort into insulting me instead of coming up with counterpoints! I've been lurking this board for a week scouring all the information I can find, and I've come to certain conclusions. I'm not saying their right. I'm open to new information, but I don't respond well do insults.
Edo: Not necessary either. Flaming a flamer is STILL FLAMING. Kiss and make up.
-Tresch
First off, before you start slandering me, PLEASE take the time to read all my posts. I've said that lawsuit isn't necessarily what I'm trying to push, it was just a topic name (note the question mark). I've said that I'm not so worried about power as I am about honesty and integrity of the manufacturer. And finally I've said over, and over, and over again that I don't care about the 9 horsepower drop. I care about the supposed 30 horsepower drop.
I'm not doing this to be selfish or to pick a fight or to slander or to try to get more power out of the car from mazda or for personal gain. I'm doing this out of curiosity. I'm just asking questions! I'm trying to gather information to get a real answer. Is that so wrong? Do I deserve to be belittled for trying to find the truth?
I'm reading every thread in here and taking everything with an open mind. If you've seen timeslips below 15 seconds... BY ALL MEANS POST THEM! Lets try to gather all the real information we can and come to REAL conclusions, rather than making generalizations and assumptions about each others goals and intents.
And lastly.. pleas please PLEASE.. before you say another negative thing about me or anyone else in the thread. READ EVERY POST CAREFULLY.
Again.. I don't care about 9 horsepower! I'm saying it looks like it's a lot bigger than that. I want someone to proove me wrong, but you're putting all your effort into insulting me instead of coming up with counterpoints! I've been lurking this board for a week scouring all the information I can find, and I've come to certain conclusions. I'm not saying their right. I'm open to new information, but I don't respond well do insults.
Edo: Not necessary either. Flaming a flamer is STILL FLAMING. Kiss and make up.
-Tresch
09-22-2003, 04:10 PM
#37
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: IN
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
..."can't we all just get along?"..snif snif
God, I swear I am so glad i didnt start reading this forum until AFTER I bought the 8. It was memorial day weekend and by then the dealer made me sign a waiver that the horsepower was xxx and I was aware of it.
So, F'n what. Show me where to sign buddy...I drove it and I felt it and I bought it and I love it.
If I had had the misfortune of reading this forum before purchasing the car I would have walked away from the deal just to avoid the association.
If you own it and dont want it. Give it the **** back to someone who does. If your thinking about buying one then it has somewhere between 101 and 601 hp (drive it and use your *** to calculate the price per hp.)
If your looking for a dragster, build one yourself and add solid propellent.
I rarely post as you can see, but I am absolutely sick of reading childish whining BS on this board.
The only thing keeping me around are the owners who post and answer intresting questions or helpful information and share a common bond to a great automobile.
PS. concurrent edit to try and keep from saying SHUT THE **** UP, opps said it.
God, I swear I am so glad i didnt start reading this forum until AFTER I bought the 8. It was memorial day weekend and by then the dealer made me sign a waiver that the horsepower was xxx and I was aware of it.
So, F'n what. Show me where to sign buddy...I drove it and I felt it and I bought it and I love it.
If I had had the misfortune of reading this forum before purchasing the car I would have walked away from the deal just to avoid the association.
If you own it and dont want it. Give it the **** back to someone who does. If your thinking about buying one then it has somewhere between 101 and 601 hp (drive it and use your *** to calculate the price per hp.)
If your looking for a dragster, build one yourself and add solid propellent.
I rarely post as you can see, but I am absolutely sick of reading childish whining BS on this board.
The only thing keeping me around are the owners who post and answer intresting questions or helpful information and share a common bond to a great automobile.
PS. concurrent edit to try and keep from saying SHUT THE **** UP, opps said it.
09-22-2003, 04:18 PM
#38
Registered
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Does it really sound like i'm whining. Did you even read my posts? Once again, I'm just curious. Once again, my only concern is the honesty of mazda. Once again, it's not the amount of power that it make but the possibility that mazda claims a number that isn't true.
Also for your information, I have driven the car. the torque curve was very nice, but yes, i did notice it seemed a bit weak in the top end.
Once again, it's not a matter of whining, or personal gain, or selfishness, it's a matter of curiosity and principal. That's all.
Just like flaming a flamer is still flaming.. whining about a whiner is still whining.
Except.. once again.. I'm not whining. I'm not complaining.. I'm just asking. Thanks for listening.
-Tresch
P.S: "But PLEASE keep comments friendly, intelligent, and constructive. I'm not here to put anyone down.. I just want to know what we're paying for!" I made this request in the first post, it still applies. Thanks.
Also for your information, I have driven the car. the torque curve was very nice, but yes, i did notice it seemed a bit weak in the top end.
Once again, it's not a matter of whining, or personal gain, or selfishness, it's a matter of curiosity and principal. That's all.
Just like flaming a flamer is still flaming.. whining about a whiner is still whining.
Except.. once again.. I'm not whining. I'm not complaining.. I'm just asking. Thanks for listening.
-Tresch
P.S: "But PLEASE keep comments friendly, intelligent, and constructive. I'm not here to put anyone down.. I just want to know what we're paying for!" I made this request in the first post, it still applies. Thanks.
09-22-2003, 04:22 PM
#39
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tresch: welcome to the forum
Originally posted by RX8Lover
You're totally off.
You're totally off.
WARNING: Don't post anything that doesn't say "you love the car" and "you don't care" about the little things (the gap versus advertised power; poor A/C; excessive heat in the cabin; crappy gas mileage; lack of real answers from Mazda, etc.).
...unless you want knee-jerk responses like the one above from RXmasterb8r. You might as well tell everyone how ugly their mother is (regarless, of course, of the fact that you slept with her).
Also, you can ignore most of the people that say "only give me the facts" here, because this board is now 95% emotion anyway.
As for Paul Yaw, he knows a lot about rotaries. Perhaps everyone quoting his recent post as gospel should A) go back and read it again and notice words like "might," "could," "possible," etc. And B) consider any bias (intentional or otherwise) on the part of the author.
09-22-2003, 04:28 PM
#40
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: IN
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tresch:
I wasnt refering specifically to you or your posts. Im just tired of reading the same ol crap. (me included I guess)
I love my car and am ready to read intresting questions or intresting information.
Anybody got an intresting question not related to Mazda corp? Heres an intresting fact:
on average: When I stop my car and get out. I turn around to take a look at her 3.4 times per stop.
PS. You know that 50% of statistics are 80% accruate.
edit: sorry mis-spelled your name
I wasnt refering specifically to you or your posts. Im just tired of reading the same ol crap. (me included I guess)
I love my car and am ready to read intresting questions or intresting information.
Anybody got an intresting question not related to Mazda corp? Heres an intresting fact:
on average: When I stop my car and get out. I turn around to take a look at her 3.4 times per stop.
PS. You know that 50% of statistics are 80% accruate.
edit: sorry mis-spelled your name
09-22-2003, 05:02 PM
#42
Registered
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 4,447
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
beaten to death
Ok, perhaps it's just me, but hasn't all of this BEEN DISCUSSED BEFORE? I'm closing this thread, because, even though you keep saying, Tresch, "I'm not trying to be a troll" you have created a trolling post ("I'm not trying to troll," btw, is often the first sign that you ARE a troll). You apparently have not read, or either don't care to read, all the information on this forum, or you wouldn't have posted this stuff. If you don't want the car, DON'T BUY IT. If you do, BUY IT. Same goes if you trust or don't trust Mazda. But DON'T repeat the same tired arguments over and over and over.
