Lawsuit?
09-22-2003, 12:33 PM
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Taking action?
Ok, I don't really want to start any **** or be a troll or anything, but I'm a little miffed at Mazda at the moment, and I'm actually very suprised at how little you guys care about this whole power issue.
The only reason I'm a bit upset is because I like the RX8 so much otherwise, but there's no way I'm going to consider buying a car who's manufacturer is outright lying about its power output. I WANT to feel comfortable buying this car, but I just can't with the current news.
I realize you guys who already own one love the cars, because they're an easy car to love. I realize it's natural to want to protect your investment and make yourself feel good about all the money you spent, but seriously, the more and more I read on here, the more and more it seems like mazda just got the best of everyone. The more and more I think people need to stand up a little!
Here's the deal. I see people pull low 15s in the 1/4 mile all the time in a 5th gen honda prelude (just one example, and my current car). the prelude is similar weight (just over 3000 lbs) but it's 195 horsepower, front wheel drive, and no limited slip diff. A car that has better weight balance, limited slip, rear wheel drive (a big advantage) and an extra 40 horsepower should be WAY ahead. Well from what it looks like.. it's only barely ahead. It's looking more and more like the 6sp rx8 only puts out the 208 or so hp that the dynos suggest.
Yes I understand it's still a really great car. But what I'm trying to say is they're CHARGING us for 238 horsepower.. and giving us 30 LESS. if this were a 25 thousand dollar car advertised at 200 horsepower, GREAT. but it's not. They're lying in order to make the car attractive to buyers in a class where the car frankly isn't in. Is it still a great car? YES. But if the pricetag said 31k, and just underneath it was listed 208hp... would their sales have dropped? YES
In general, I really like mazda. They've made some of my favorite cars, but that doesn't give them any right to do what they are doing, and they've made it VERY obvious that they're going to continue what they're doing unless someone teaches them a lesson. They're just seeing how much they can get away with before they get caught. So lets see if we can catch them. At very LEAST we can get some answers.
I want to start compiling all the information I can about all this stuff.. timeslips, dyno charts, research, etc. I've a mind to call the dealers and salesman from the local mazda shops and make sure they're aware of the situation and see what their thoughts are..
Trust me.. the only reason I care is because I think these are really really awesome cars! They're marketing it as a "True sports car" but true sports cars don't lie about their performance! I would LOVE to buy a 238 horsepower rx8 at the current price, and I would even consider a 208 horsepower rx8 at a price that would make it worthwhile, but I CANT deal with lies and misinformation. It's the principal of the thing.
I dunno.. Maybe I'm just ranting and I should just stick with my prelude. I'd love to hear what you guys think... and if my reasoning is WAY off then please let me know, and I apologize. But PLEASE keep comments friendly, intelligent, and constructive. I'm not here to put anyone down.. I just want to know what we're paying for!
Thanks guys :P
-Tresch
The only reason I'm a bit upset is because I like the RX8 so much otherwise, but there's no way I'm going to consider buying a car who's manufacturer is outright lying about its power output. I WANT to feel comfortable buying this car, but I just can't with the current news.
I realize you guys who already own one love the cars, because they're an easy car to love. I realize it's natural to want to protect your investment and make yourself feel good about all the money you spent, but seriously, the more and more I read on here, the more and more it seems like mazda just got the best of everyone. The more and more I think people need to stand up a little!
Here's the deal. I see people pull low 15s in the 1/4 mile all the time in a 5th gen honda prelude (just one example, and my current car). the prelude is similar weight (just over 3000 lbs) but it's 195 horsepower, front wheel drive, and no limited slip diff. A car that has better weight balance, limited slip, rear wheel drive (a big advantage) and an extra 40 horsepower should be WAY ahead. Well from what it looks like.. it's only barely ahead. It's looking more and more like the 6sp rx8 only puts out the 208 or so hp that the dynos suggest.
Yes I understand it's still a really great car. But what I'm trying to say is they're CHARGING us for 238 horsepower.. and giving us 30 LESS. if this were a 25 thousand dollar car advertised at 200 horsepower, GREAT. but it's not. They're lying in order to make the car attractive to buyers in a class where the car frankly isn't in. Is it still a great car? YES. But if the pricetag said 31k, and just underneath it was listed 208hp... would their sales have dropped? YES
In general, I really like mazda. They've made some of my favorite cars, but that doesn't give them any right to do what they are doing, and they've made it VERY obvious that they're going to continue what they're doing unless someone teaches them a lesson. They're just seeing how much they can get away with before they get caught. So lets see if we can catch them. At very LEAST we can get some answers.
I want to start compiling all the information I can about all this stuff.. timeslips, dyno charts, research, etc. I've a mind to call the dealers and salesman from the local mazda shops and make sure they're aware of the situation and see what their thoughts are..
Trust me.. the only reason I care is because I think these are really really awesome cars! They're marketing it as a "True sports car" but true sports cars don't lie about their performance! I would LOVE to buy a 238 horsepower rx8 at the current price, and I would even consider a 208 horsepower rx8 at a price that would make it worthwhile, but I CANT deal with lies and misinformation. It's the principal of the thing.
I dunno.. Maybe I'm just ranting and I should just stick with my prelude. I'd love to hear what you guys think... and if my reasoning is WAY off then please let me know, and I apologize. But PLEASE keep comments friendly, intelligent, and constructive. I'm not here to put anyone down.. I just want to know what we're paying for!
Thanks guys :P
-Tresch
Last edited by Tresch; 09-22-2003 at 04:19 PM.
09-22-2003, 01:00 PM
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Tresch,
I commend you on wanting to take on the "big guys" in this case Mazda. I am concerned though because Mazda, unlike many other companies have at least given us an option. Some have said that it is a way to protect themselves. When the Infinity Q car did not perform as stated and then they said it wouldn't what did they do for their customers? nothing I am told. Is THAT RIGHT - NO.
I agree with you about a company's responsibility to deliver a product as described. A return is about as far as a company can go though. It is also noted that we seem to have an answer here on the forum under RX discussion section. While it is a 9 horsepower falicy, it is not a MAJOR FLAW. I think many people are bothered about it but realizing the effect of the issue and understanding the options puts the consumer back in control of the matter. I can return the car and get something else or keep[ it and get a benefit for doing so.
If you are thinking about buying one, it is as it has been since it arrived. All cars lose some of the power from the crank to the wheels - just at different percentages of loss. There is a thread also here that someone dynoed the car at nearly 200 at the wheel so that is about a 16% loss or so.
Too many companies do get by with wrong doing but, in this case, the company is trying to make it right and that is better than most. IMO
I commend you on wanting to take on the "big guys" in this case Mazda. I am concerned though because Mazda, unlike many other companies have at least given us an option. Some have said that it is a way to protect themselves. When the Infinity Q car did not perform as stated and then they said it wouldn't what did they do for their customers? nothing I am told. Is THAT RIGHT - NO.
I agree with you about a company's responsibility to deliver a product as described. A return is about as far as a company can go though. It is also noted that we seem to have an answer here on the forum under RX discussion section. While it is a 9 horsepower falicy, it is not a MAJOR FLAW. I think many people are bothered about it but realizing the effect of the issue and understanding the options puts the consumer back in control of the matter. I can return the car and get something else or keep[ it and get a benefit for doing so.
If you are thinking about buying one, it is as it has been since it arrived. All cars lose some of the power from the crank to the wheels - just at different percentages of loss. There is a thread also here that someone dynoed the car at nearly 200 at the wheel so that is about a 16% loss or so.
Too many companies do get by with wrong doing but, in this case, the company is trying to make it right and that is better than most. IMO
Last edited by RodsterinFL; 09-22-2003 at 02:51 PM.
09-22-2003, 01:05 PM
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oh god, here we go!
go ahead, get some lawyers involved. tell them that you DESERVE to get more horsepower for your money. Ugh.
just because people are getting certain numbers doesn't mean that it is the end all. It depends on the driver, the conditions, etc. If you did your homework you would see that people HAVE gotten upper-mid 14s on the quarter mile.
i am so sick of hearing person after person complaining that they want to sue Mazda because they think they need more horsepower for their money.
go ahead, get some lawyers involved. tell them that you DESERVE to get more horsepower for your money. Ugh.
just because people are getting certain numbers doesn't mean that it is the end all. It depends on the driver, the conditions, etc. If you did your homework you would see that people HAVE gotten upper-mid 14s on the quarter mile.
i am so sick of hearing person after person complaining that they want to sue Mazda because they think they need more horsepower for their money.
09-22-2003, 01:05 PM
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Well buyers (like me) could give the car back (like canzoomer 
) but mazda can't really give you much MORE than that.
I'm not delusional as some say, I have the option of returning the car, I still have not returned my letter, and therefore STILL have the option. I'm STILL thinking about it.
I LOVE the car, there isn't really much else out there for the price I paid in CDN funds for my car that I can get that will be as appealing to ME.
NOTHING, even if this car only has 200hp it's enough for me, it's more than I had before and the car is comfy and smooth and beautifull.
Only other car I can get in my price range that is close is the TSX....... but it's not nearly as fast.
) but mazda can't really give you much MORE than that.I'm not delusional as some say, I have the option of returning the car, I still have not returned my letter, and therefore STILL have the option. I'm STILL thinking about it.
I LOVE the car, there isn't really much else out there for the price I paid in CDN funds for my car that I can get that will be as appealing to ME.
NOTHING, even if this car only has 200hp it's enough for me, it's more than I had before and the car is comfy and smooth and beautifull.
Only other car I can get in my price range that is close is the TSX....... but it's not nearly as fast.
09-22-2003, 01:06 PM
#5
Momentum Keeps Me Going
You make too much sense IMHO. Just like too many things now-a-days, it seems like there is reality and then there is what you're told to believe. Network TV 'news' is the most obvious example that comes to mind.
I have similar thoughts running threw my mind many times, which generally ends up like this:
1. OK they re-stated 247 hp to 238 hp, now that really made me mad, for YEARS I've dreamed of a 250 HP rotary, now I BUY it, then they tell me WOOPS! WTFs up with that!
1b. In my heart of hearts, I KNOW I am not driving a 238HP car but something less... likely 200-210 hp. Now THAT RALLY PISSES ME OFF. And Mazda just wants to cover there head in the legal sand, and I don't even get 238 hp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2. Well, OK they have these offers, that's sorta fair maybe, but why do I have to decide between two thing that I didn't ask for in the first place? That sucks!
3. So I could give the car back. Wooppee! Now what do I do? I LIKE the car. This really bites.
4. OR I can take the service. Not too shabby actually... BUT WAIT A SEC... I want what I paid for .... 247 hp! The thing has a warranty anyway, so "regularly scheduled maintenance" isn't all that.
5. OK I could say WTH, sue the bastards. Now that's going to make my life fun. Headline "SPIN9K sues Mazda over HP shortage"! And I wanted to lead an uncomplicated life just driving my RX-8 around... so...
6. Go back and start over at step one again, etc., etc.
I don't have a resolution in my head to this, and I haven't sent my letter yet.
I have similar thoughts running threw my mind many times, which generally ends up like this:
1. OK they re-stated 247 hp to 238 hp, now that really made me mad, for YEARS I've dreamed of a 250 HP rotary, now I BUY it, then they tell me WOOPS! WTFs up with that!
1b. In my heart of hearts, I KNOW I am not driving a 238HP car but something less... likely 200-210 hp. Now THAT RALLY PISSES ME OFF. And Mazda just wants to cover there head in the legal sand, and I don't even get 238 hp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2. Well, OK they have these offers, that's sorta fair maybe, but why do I have to decide between two thing that I didn't ask for in the first place? That sucks!
3. So I could give the car back. Wooppee! Now what do I do? I LIKE the car. This really bites.
4. OR I can take the service. Not too shabby actually... BUT WAIT A SEC... I want what I paid for .... 247 hp! The thing has a warranty anyway, so "regularly scheduled maintenance" isn't all that.
5. OK I could say WTH, sue the bastards. Now that's going to make my life fun. Headline "SPIN9K sues Mazda over HP shortage"! And I wanted to lead an uncomplicated life just driving my RX-8 around... so...
6. Go back and start over at step one again, etc., etc.
I don't have a resolution in my head to this, and I haven't sent my letter yet.
Last edited by Spin9k; 09-22-2003 at 01:16 PM.
09-22-2003, 01:15 PM
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Tresch, your not going to get any sympathy from most. Why? Because a lot of people didnt buy this car for numbers. I sure didnt. I test drove the car and decided it was worth my money. I care nothing at all for 1/4 mile times or 0-60. I drive in the streets of a major city and the car is great there. Plenty fun on a autox track too. If your buying the car for racing, then dont! It'snot the fastest car out there.
Anyways, if you searched the forums youd see this has been beaten to death many times. Your not the first to come up with the idea and you probably wont be the last. There's also a lot of other stuff going on including some very interesteing posts by yaw power that I think you should have bothered to read.
Last but not least as I remind people if you have a beef with Mazda, take it to Mazda. This forum is not Mazda and people here have a brain of their own about what they want to do about this issue. I certainly dont need someone else to tell me what I should think about this issue. If you beleive that I am a fool for thinking that way, fine. I'm a fool. I sent my letter in and am certainly keeping the car.
Anyways, if you searched the forums youd see this has been beaten to death many times. Your not the first to come up with the idea and you probably wont be the last. There's also a lot of other stuff going on including some very interesteing posts by yaw power that I think you should have bothered to read.
Last but not least as I remind people if you have a beef with Mazda, take it to Mazda. This forum is not Mazda and people here have a brain of their own about what they want to do about this issue. I certainly dont need someone else to tell me what I should think about this issue. If you beleive that I am a fool for thinking that way, fine. I'm a fool. I sent my letter in and am certainly keeping the car.
09-22-2003, 01:32 PM
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I'm not trying to flame
I wanted to post that by it self in the open so I don't get flamed back. Anyhow....
Being a newbie in the rotary world, I'm not at all a rotary officianato, but I'm learning a lot about cars in General. I'm just starting a new appreciation for rotaries. Being that as it may, I've been reading several topics on this subject. I just wanted to offer an opinon that people may or may not have considered. I'm sure everyone's pissed off because of the first overstatement. 247-238, that's quite a bit of HP for that range. Now people are claming 190hp. I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up, but I think that the numbers Mazda's claiming are on an engine dyno and the numbers people are claming are on a chassis dyno. That would account for the loss of hp in the drivetrain that everyone's experiencing. Also, has anyone ever seen a major automotive manufacturer quote horsepower numbers at the wheels? I'm pretty sure none of them do. Please let me know if I'm wrong. So yes, the first overstatement was wrong of Mazda, and for that, yes I would be getting every fricken thing done by the dealership free. But the second, stating that the Manual cars have like 190hp, unless they've taken the engine out of car and dynoed it, I'm pretty sure that it's a chassis dyno. Again, please let me know if I'm wrong. I was just hoping to put a little bit of a positive spin on this subject. And Sorry for it being a book :p
Chris
I wanted to post that by it self in the open so I don't get flamed back. Anyhow....
Being a newbie in the rotary world, I'm not at all a rotary officianato, but I'm learning a lot about cars in General. I'm just starting a new appreciation for rotaries. Being that as it may, I've been reading several topics on this subject. I just wanted to offer an opinon that people may or may not have considered. I'm sure everyone's pissed off because of the first overstatement. 247-238, that's quite a bit of HP for that range. Now people are claming 190hp. I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up, but I think that the numbers Mazda's claiming are on an engine dyno and the numbers people are claming are on a chassis dyno. That would account for the loss of hp in the drivetrain that everyone's experiencing. Also, has anyone ever seen a major automotive manufacturer quote horsepower numbers at the wheels? I'm pretty sure none of them do. Please let me know if I'm wrong. So yes, the first overstatement was wrong of Mazda, and for that, yes I would be getting every fricken thing done by the dealership free. But the second, stating that the Manual cars have like 190hp, unless they've taken the engine out of car and dynoed it, I'm pretty sure that it's a chassis dyno. Again, please let me know if I'm wrong. I was just hoping to put a little bit of a positive spin on this subject. And Sorry for it being a book :p
Chris
09-22-2003, 01:33 PM
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GET A FOOKIN LIFE. JEEZUS.
If you buy a car for drag racing and are so hung up on 1/4 Mile times, then go buy some big engined American piece of **** with the handling of a turd.
If you have already got the car/ordered when it was 250bhp, you got the option to give it back, or a very generous deal.
If you dont like the car, you can give it back.
Otherwise shut-up!
Some Americans have lost the plot - suing for getting cancer, being fat or falling over your own feet.
Have you seen the film with Billy Connoly Suing God? I assume it's been tried in the US....
If you buy a car for drag racing and are so hung up on 1/4 Mile times, then go buy some big engined American piece of **** with the handling of a turd.
If you have already got the car/ordered when it was 250bhp, you got the option to give it back, or a very generous deal.
If you dont like the car, you can give it back.
Otherwise shut-up!
Some Americans have lost the plot - suing for getting cancer, being fat or falling over your own feet.
Have you seen the film with Billy Connoly Suing God? I assume it's been tried in the US....
09-22-2003, 01:36 PM
#9
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Originally posted by Edo
GET A FOOKIN LIFE. JEEZUS.
GET A FOOKIN LIFE. JEEZUS.
He has stated his well reasoned thoughts and WTF is wrong with that!!
So edo and RX8Lover, why don't you......chill.
09-22-2003, 01:39 PM
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Sue me! ;-)
Sorry, but the whole saw suit thing gets on my nerves. By all means sue if you are being unfairly treated, but I think Mazda have been fair. The whole "how can I get more out of this" thing stinks. All IMHO of course - Freedom of speech and all that....
Sorry, but the whole saw suit thing gets on my nerves. By all means sue if you are being unfairly treated, but I think Mazda have been fair. The whole "how can I get more out of this" thing stinks. All IMHO of course - Freedom of speech and all that....
09-22-2003, 01:41 PM
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Look at least you guys have got your cars. We aint Go for it - sue Mazda see how far it gets you. IMHO they have done alright by all accounts. if you want 230+ bhp buy something else. Personally I cannot wait for my RX8 whether it has 210, 220 or 230 bhp!
Go for it - sue Mazda see how far it gets you. IMHO they have done alright by all accounts. if you want 230+ bhp buy something else. Personally I cannot wait for my RX8 whether it has 210, 220 or 230 bhp!
09-22-2003, 01:45 PM
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no lawsuit necessary
I'm still weighing the two options. It's clear and simple. Keep or sell back. The complicated thing is that some things that should be more or less objective have become subjective. First to address the chassis/engine dyno. Yes, the numbers posted here are all chassis-based and it has been mentioned at least a couple times that doing one on just the engine is much easier said than done. And although most of us may not have bought our RX8s for merely a 1/4 mile time target, getting beaten by lesser cars that are rated at similar or lower HP with similar or heavier weights is not appealing or comforting. And for the poster who said he's seen 14sec 1/4 mile times posted on this forum, I will object. Nobody that I've seen has turned better than 15 - only Mazda has pulled mid 14s. yes, it's a true sports car, it handles great,probably every car in the US will hit 150 if the driver has the road and the guts on which to so. Besides the legal title, the starter of this post has a good point - a Prelude shouldn't come close to our beloved 8s except in cases where the Prelude driver is an expert compared to an inexperienced 8 driver - which is to me the acceptable subjectiveness that will always exist.
09-22-2003, 01:50 PM
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There's is no way you will win a lawsuit like this. The only reason you are thinking about suing is that you are hoping to cash in. I hope you spend a lot of money and get nothing out of it. People that sue over every little thing are sooo annoying, esp since everyone knows that they are doing it for money. Mazda admitted the problem when confronted and retested, and changed the specs. And for those that were unhappy, they were offered a full refund. If you think it's overpriced now since it's rated lower, don't buy it. There's no case here. How about that McDonald's suit that was just thrown out of court. Everyone knows how fatty fastfood is and the nutritional info is posted for all to see. Noone made anyone buy it or eat it. Kudos to the judge for tossing it. This is not like the tobacco industry who knew that tobacco was addictive and hid that fact for years and years insisting that it was not harmful or addictive.
09-22-2003, 01:53 PM
#15
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Originally posted by Edo
The whole "how can I get more out of this" thing stinks.
The whole "how can I get more out of this" thing stinks.
I know you are in the UK and haven't got cars yet, so you are much in the anticipation mode, just as we used to be. But now we do have cars (some of us anyway), and we have to deal with them as they are presented to us.
If anything still bothers me, it is not 'getting more' but back to balance and fairness. You know the old saying, treat others as you wish to be treated. Well, this is where I get thinking about, say, how would I have IDEALLY liked to have been treated in the situation regarding HP and the RX-8?
I DID call Mazda back when this started, and I WAS TOLD 2 days before they released the timing slips that Mazda was NOT going to provide any further explaination or any dyno run figues or ANYTHING ELSE, just take or leave the offer. FULLSTOP!! That was from the higherups at Mazda according to the person I spoke with.
I told them they were treating us like children, not adults, and it was very upsetting. She had no answer to that.
That's where I coming from. Respect and balance. And I am not yet sure we have reached either one of those points, unfortunately.
Last edited by Spin9k; 09-22-2003 at 01:57 PM.
09-22-2003, 02:00 PM
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Is this not a case of having your cake and eating it? It would seem that most think the car:
1. Look great
2. Handles great.
3. Is good value.
the only fly in the ointment is the bhp issue. Mazda said it was going to be that and it turned out like this. What have they done? Offered your money back - seems fair. What would everyone like them to do - raise the bhp free of charge - doubt it will happen - sorry.
1. Look great
2. Handles great.
3. Is good value.
the only fly in the ointment is the bhp issue. Mazda said it was going to be that and it turned out like this. What have they done? Offered your money back - seems fair. What would everyone like them to do - raise the bhp free of charge - doubt it will happen - sorry.
09-22-2003, 02:07 PM
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Ok, some good replies here.
RodsterinFL -
"While it is a 9 horsepower falicy, it is not a MAJOR FLAW"
I actually don't mind the 9 horsepower drop. 238hp is fine. I'm talking about the near 30 hp drop from THAT. That's a big damned drop in power.
"There is a thread also here that someone dynoed the car at nearly 200 at the wheel so that is about a 16% loss or so"
All well and good, but that guy was running race gas. and just because one car makes good numbers doesn't mean much to me. the vast majority are still getting 180 and BELOW. Again, if there's just something weird going on and the drivetrain is just pathetically innefficient, the least mazda could do is PROVE to us their numbers are accurate. but they wont say anything. If they have nothing to hide, why stay shut up about it?
RX8Lover -
"go ahead, get some lawyers involved. tell them that you DESERVE to get more horsepower for your money. Ugh."
I'm sorry you misunderstood me. This has nothing to do with selfishness. I don't deserve anything! If a car puts out a too little horsepower for the price, I'm just wont buy it. This is not the issue. The issue is honesty. Mazda is selling cars and lying to the buyers. it's a simple as that.
"If you did your homework you would see that people HAVE gotten upper-mid 14s on the quarter mile."
I have done my homework, and I have seen this, and I'm unimpressed. Who knows.. maybe we'll know more as we get some really good drivers behind the wheel? Using the prelude as an example again(which are NOT at the top of their class in performance I might add) with around 200whp should be able to get pretty close to 14 flat. that's fwd open diff. I dunno. I guess I'm a little weak in this area, and should do more research. Maybe I'm totally off!
Wing -
"Well buyers (like me) could give the car back (like canzoomer ) but mazda can't really give you much MORE than that."
They could, uhh.. put the right number on the cars in the first place? Or let us know what's actually going on? All I want is the truth. That's it. No special deals or fancy stuff.. I just want to know what I'm buying. That's all!
Spin9k -
"In my heart of hearts, I KNOW I am not driving a 238HP car but something less... likey 200-210 hp. Now THAT RALLY PISSES ME OFF. And Mazda just wants to cover there head in the legal sand, and I don't even get 238 hp!"
This is what I'm talking about. I just want real numbers and real answers before I'll consider buying their product. I really WANT to buy their product, but they gotta prove that they deserve my business.
Ok, so maybe the word "lawsuit" is a little harsh. Maybe "warning" or "demands" would be more appropriate? Again remember, I'm not in this for personal gain. If mazda came out and said "ok everyone, we were wrong, it's actually 210 horsepower" and backed up their numbers.. I would STILL consider buying the car. I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT IM BUYING. I just get curious and frustrated when there are a bunch of questions and no answers is all. Maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe not?
-Tresch
RodsterinFL -
"While it is a 9 horsepower falicy, it is not a MAJOR FLAW"
I actually don't mind the 9 horsepower drop. 238hp is fine. I'm talking about the near 30 hp drop from THAT. That's a big damned drop in power.
"There is a thread also here that someone dynoed the car at nearly 200 at the wheel so that is about a 16% loss or so"
All well and good, but that guy was running race gas. and just because one car makes good numbers doesn't mean much to me. the vast majority are still getting 180 and BELOW. Again, if there's just something weird going on and the drivetrain is just pathetically innefficient, the least mazda could do is PROVE to us their numbers are accurate. but they wont say anything. If they have nothing to hide, why stay shut up about it?
RX8Lover -
"go ahead, get some lawyers involved. tell them that you DESERVE to get more horsepower for your money. Ugh."
I'm sorry you misunderstood me. This has nothing to do with selfishness. I don't deserve anything! If a car puts out a too little horsepower for the price, I'm just wont buy it. This is not the issue. The issue is honesty. Mazda is selling cars and lying to the buyers. it's a simple as that.
"If you did your homework you would see that people HAVE gotten upper-mid 14s on the quarter mile."
I have done my homework, and I have seen this, and I'm unimpressed. Who knows.. maybe we'll know more as we get some really good drivers behind the wheel? Using the prelude as an example again(which are NOT at the top of their class in performance I might add) with around 200whp should be able to get pretty close to 14 flat. that's fwd open diff. I dunno. I guess I'm a little weak in this area, and should do more research. Maybe I'm totally off!
Wing -
"Well buyers (like me) could give the car back (like canzoomer ) but mazda can't really give you much MORE than that."
They could, uhh.. put the right number on the cars in the first place? Or let us know what's actually going on? All I want is the truth. That's it. No special deals or fancy stuff.. I just want to know what I'm buying. That's all!
Spin9k -
"In my heart of hearts, I KNOW I am not driving a 238HP car but something less... likey 200-210 hp. Now THAT RALLY PISSES ME OFF. And Mazda just wants to cover there head in the legal sand, and I don't even get 238 hp!"
This is what I'm talking about. I just want real numbers and real answers before I'll consider buying their product. I really WANT to buy their product, but they gotta prove that they deserve my business.
Ok, so maybe the word "lawsuit" is a little harsh. Maybe "warning" or "demands" would be more appropriate? Again remember, I'm not in this for personal gain. If mazda came out and said "ok everyone, we were wrong, it's actually 210 horsepower" and backed up their numbers.. I would STILL consider buying the car. I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT IM BUYING. I just get curious and frustrated when there are a bunch of questions and no answers is all. Maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe not?
-Tresch
09-22-2003, 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by Tresch
Ok, some good replies here.
Using the prelude as an example again(which are NOT at the top of their class in performance I might add) with around 200whp should be able to get pretty close to 14 flat. that's fwd open diff. I dunno. I guess I'm a little weak in this area, and should do more research. Maybe I'm totally off!
-Tresch
Ok, some good replies here.
Using the prelude as an example again(which are NOT at the top of their class in performance I might add) with around 200whp should be able to get pretty close to 14 flat. that's fwd open diff. I dunno. I guess I'm a little weak in this area, and should do more research. Maybe I'm totally off!
-Tresch
09-22-2003, 02:17 PM
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Whoah! In the time it took me to write that a WHOLE bunch of other people replied! Takes to long to quote them all.. so I'll just summarize.
Once again everyone.. I'm not saying all this to "GET MORE OUT OF MAZDA" or anything selfish like that. I don't even OWN an rx8! I WANT an rx8. I WANT mazda to succeed.
I realize there are many other reasons to buy an rx8 other than pure hp ratings.
None of this changes the facts. None of the numbers the car has been showing support mazda's claims. Just because it's a "nice car" doesn't mean a manufacturer shouldn't be held accountable for their own actions.
Also, I realized people have ranted about this before, and I'm sorry.. I searched to see if there was a similar thread, and couldn't find any, and had a few extra points I wanted to make, so I posted. There's been some very good points made in here.. keep them coming!
-Tresch
Once again everyone.. I'm not saying all this to "GET MORE OUT OF MAZDA" or anything selfish like that. I don't even OWN an rx8! I WANT an rx8. I WANT mazda to succeed.
I realize there are many other reasons to buy an rx8 other than pure hp ratings.
None of this changes the facts. None of the numbers the car has been showing support mazda's claims. Just because it's a "nice car" doesn't mean a manufacturer shouldn't be held accountable for their own actions.
Also, I realized people have ranted about this before, and I'm sorry.. I searched to see if there was a similar thread, and couldn't find any, and had a few extra points I wanted to make, so I posted. There's been some very good points made in here.. keep them coming!
-Tresch
09-22-2003, 02:20 PM
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kazesupra -
"not to be a pest, but I think your answer to the 30hp drop lies in my earlier post."
Noted, but if you look, the chassis dyno numbers most people have been finding are at 180 or less. if you compare that to the engine dyno numbers mazda claims of 238 horsepower, that's over a 25% drop in horsepower, which is bad even for an AWD vehicle. standard loss for a manual, rwd vehicle is around 15%, and the RX8 SHOULD do a pretty good job, what with the carbon fiber driveshaft and all that.
"not to be a pest, but I think your answer to the 30hp drop lies in my earlier post."
Noted, but if you look, the chassis dyno numbers most people have been finding are at 180 or less. if you compare that to the engine dyno numbers mazda claims of 238 horsepower, that's over a 25% drop in horsepower, which is bad even for an AWD vehicle. standard loss for a manual, rwd vehicle is around 15%, and the RX8 SHOULD do a pretty good job, what with the carbon fiber driveshaft and all that.
Last edited by Tresch; 09-22-2003 at 02:25 PM.
09-22-2003, 02:34 PM
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RX8Lover -
"You're totally off."
Thank you for your opinion.
If you don't mind, however.. I'd like to provide some constructive criticism.
When participating in a discussion or a debate, it's common practice so provide facts and examples to back up your statements and opinions. Without any evidence, your points are null, and you wont convince anyone of anything. In fact, instead you generall come across as offensive, which will make other people react DEfensively, causing them to naturally stray further from your side of the argument.
I'm very very curious to see what sort of research you can provide to back up your claims! Hopefully you WILL prove me wrong, and we can drop the whole thing.
-Tresch
"You're totally off."
Thank you for your opinion.
If you don't mind, however.. I'd like to provide some constructive criticism.
When participating in a discussion or a debate, it's common practice so provide facts and examples to back up your statements and opinions. Without any evidence, your points are null, and you wont convince anyone of anything. In fact, instead you generall come across as offensive, which will make other people react DEfensively, causing them to naturally stray further from your side of the argument.
I'm very very curious to see what sort of research you can provide to back up your claims! Hopefully you WILL prove me wrong, and we can drop the whole thing.
-Tresch
09-22-2003, 02:36 PM
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I thought I'd add my 2 cents here cause I'm in the same boat. I have been looking at cars for about 3 months. I test drove tons of cars and I had one last one to test drive before I was gonna make my decision which was the RX-8. They finally got them at the dealer and I went for a drive. I LOVED the car. I was going to buy one in about a months time. Now my wife is pregnant and I can't get one for a while. Then this whole "Mazda made a booboo" comes out and I'm like welllll...crap. When I started looking at this car, it had 250 HP (or so I though). Now, if i really do buy one, i'll be paying the same amount of money that I would have payed for a car with higher output. This just doesn't seem right to me. It is like if someone puts 2 MP3 players in front of you, one with a 10 GB HD and the other with a 40 GB HD, yet, they both cost the same!! hmmm...which one will I buy? they don't differ in any other way...just how much storage they have. Just like the RX8, back in July, i was buying a 250HP rx8 for $33000 (According to Mazda), and today I'd be buying the same RX8 with 238HP for $33000. It just don't add up...
I still can't decide what to do. I might not be buying a car till next year now, so I'll probably have more options by then. But even if I do want to an RX8 i'll still have this thing in the back of my head that doesn't make sense.
So I aggree something should still be done cause it isn't fair to people who investigated and drove an RX8 BEFORE Mazda came out of the closet or for any one in that matter. But now i just have to sign a paper that says, "Yep, i'm a dumbass...i'll pay more for less..."
Well, i think i'm just rambling now...so that's my 2 cents...
serff
I still can't decide what to do. I might not be buying a car till next year now, so I'll probably have more options by then. But even if I do want to an RX8 i'll still have this thing in the back of my head that doesn't make sense.
So I aggree something should still be done cause it isn't fair to people who investigated and drove an RX8 BEFORE Mazda came out of the closet or for any one in that matter. But now i just have to sign a paper that says, "Yep, i'm a dumbass...i'll pay more for less..."
Well, i think i'm just rambling now...so that's my 2 cents...
serff
09-22-2003, 03:06 PM
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serff -
Just to clarify, most of what I'm ranting about is not the drop from 247 to 238. a 9 horsepower drop isn't all that much, and mazda came out and admitted it, and republished all their marketting stuff to match. That's ok. They made a booboo.. now we have to decide if we still want that car, but that's not a problem. Forgiveable.
The problem to me is that they're now listing them at 238 horsepower, but all the research done so far is showing that they really put some something more to the tune of 205-210 horsepower. that's not just a 9 horsepower drop. that's 30. That becomes a big deal. Bigger yet that mazda won't help us out and A) set us straight and give a real explanation or B) put the REAL number on the car.
Also: As far as the "don't worry just about power!" arguments
They're marketting it as a sports car, so OF COURSE people are going to make a big deal about power output. Because it's a SPORTSCAR and a big part of autosports is power!
Example: Honda now has a 6 speed Accord Couple. Honda claims it makes 240 horsepower. If a bunch of people bought the car and realized it only make more like 210 horsepower, there would be an OUTRAGE. Even though it's still a great car.. it's false advertisement. Even offering a buyback is a huge inconvenience on the customer. Say I sold my old, 200hp Accord to buy the new 240 Accord because I wanted more power? Then I get it and it's not any faster. Suddenly I just went through a huge amount of work, spent a lot of money, and gained nothing. So they buy the car back off me, great. Now I have NO CAR at all and I'm still probably down cash from all the fees and junk that come along with buying a new car, not to mention a whole lot of time and faith in the company.
Sorry to keep rambling. I'm just bored at work and as ideas come out I type them. Read if you want! Otherwise ignore. Respond if you have anything to add
I think overall this is a great message board and it's been very helpful to me. Keep the ideas coming!
-Tresch
Just to clarify, most of what I'm ranting about is not the drop from 247 to 238. a 9 horsepower drop isn't all that much, and mazda came out and admitted it, and republished all their marketting stuff to match. That's ok. They made a booboo.. now we have to decide if we still want that car, but that's not a problem. Forgiveable.
The problem to me is that they're now listing them at 238 horsepower, but all the research done so far is showing that they really put some something more to the tune of 205-210 horsepower. that's not just a 9 horsepower drop. that's 30. That becomes a big deal. Bigger yet that mazda won't help us out and A) set us straight and give a real explanation or B) put the REAL number on the car.
Also: As far as the "don't worry just about power!" arguments
They're marketting it as a sports car, so OF COURSE people are going to make a big deal about power output. Because it's a SPORTSCAR and a big part of autosports is power!
Example: Honda now has a 6 speed Accord Couple. Honda claims it makes 240 horsepower. If a bunch of people bought the car and realized it only make more like 210 horsepower, there would be an OUTRAGE. Even though it's still a great car.. it's false advertisement. Even offering a buyback is a huge inconvenience on the customer. Say I sold my old, 200hp Accord to buy the new 240 Accord because I wanted more power? Then I get it and it's not any faster. Suddenly I just went through a huge amount of work, spent a lot of money, and gained nothing. So they buy the car back off me, great. Now I have NO CAR at all and I'm still probably down cash from all the fees and junk that come along with buying a new car, not to mention a whole lot of time and faith in the company.
Sorry to keep rambling. I'm just bored at work and as ideas come out I type them. Read if you want! Otherwise ignore. Respond if you have anything to add
I think overall this is a great message board and it's been very helpful to me. Keep the ideas coming!-Tresch