I've Had It!
03-10-2007, 12:08 AM
#101
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Bold comments are me.
Originally Posted by T-von
The reality here is your assumptions are completely wrong about my Fd. Do you actually realize the very small percentage of Fd's that actually have original engines that have over 100k? Were talking in the single digit percentage. It's probably less than 2%. My turbo's are perfectly fine and don't leak any oil. My coolant seals are in perfect working order. Absolutely zero leaks. I understand how to properly maintaine my car. Period!
I don't care how well you know how to maintain a car. The fact of the matter is that Mazda placed the factory twins TOO CLOSE to the engine block, with not enough heat shielding. You can change your oil, coolant, and spark plugs all you want - you aren't going to stop heat from pouring off of those turbos, and baking the coolant seals in your block.
Pressurize your 100k+ mile FD's coolant system. Leave it pressurized at 13psi for 2-3 weeks. Sound like a plan? If it's as healthy as you say, you shouldn't be down even a little bit of coolant. My guess is, you will have at least a few drops in your engine..
I do believe my compression was lowering a bit. I already said earlier that 87 helped me out due to my higher mileage. Tell me something I don't already know!
You are hear giving advice to others that 87 octane is FINE to run, just because on your personal car (oh, and a few of your friends) which you admit you think the compression is down on..does that sound stupid to you?
Also the reality is 87 is safe in the Rx8 whether you want to believe that or not. The higher than normal A/F ratios of the engine tuning plus the knock sensors will more than compensate for the lower octane. No one has yet to prove me wrong.
Prove you wrong?! Are you JOKING? Knock sensors will do JUST THAT - sense knock, sense detonation, sense misfire, whatever you want it to do!! A "misfire" on a rotary engines is DEADLY! It only takes ONE small off-set fire to SHATTER an apex seal! What about this do you not comprehend?? Prove you wrong?! - come take a look at my RX7 buddy!!
Higher A/F ratio will not compensate for the lower octane. 2 oz 87 != 1 oz 91. It is not better. More of a lower octane fuel will not compensate for running a higher octane. That is retarded to try and argue!
I don't care how well you know how to maintain a car. The fact of the matter is that Mazda placed the factory twins TOO CLOSE to the engine block, with not enough heat shielding. You can change your oil, coolant, and spark plugs all you want - you aren't going to stop heat from pouring off of those turbos, and baking the coolant seals in your block.
Pressurize your 100k+ mile FD's coolant system. Leave it pressurized at 13psi for 2-3 weeks. Sound like a plan? If it's as healthy as you say, you shouldn't be down even a little bit of coolant. My guess is, you will have at least a few drops in your engine..
I do believe my compression was lowering a bit. I already said earlier that 87 helped me out due to my higher mileage. Tell me something I don't already know!
You are hear giving advice to others that 87 octane is FINE to run, just because on your personal car (oh, and a few of your friends) which you admit you think the compression is down on..does that sound stupid to you?
Also the reality is 87 is safe in the Rx8 whether you want to believe that or not. The higher than normal A/F ratios of the engine tuning plus the knock sensors will more than compensate for the lower octane. No one has yet to prove me wrong.
Prove you wrong?! Are you JOKING? Knock sensors will do JUST THAT - sense knock, sense detonation, sense misfire, whatever you want it to do!! A "misfire" on a rotary engines is DEADLY! It only takes ONE small off-set fire to SHATTER an apex seal! What about this do you not comprehend?? Prove you wrong?! - come take a look at my RX7 buddy!!
Higher A/F ratio will not compensate for the lower octane. 2 oz 87 != 1 oz 91. It is not better. More of a lower octane fuel will not compensate for running a higher octane. That is retarded to try and argue!
03-10-2007, 12:23 PM
#103
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Originally Posted by T-von
I'm aware of the change in the casting between those models however, I guess the engine in my 91 vert is a freak of nature. I pulled that engine apart at 146k and my rotor to apex seal grooves where perfectly in spec. I've put nothing but 87 in that car. So why is mine not expanding?
I've also bought a total of 6 S5 NA 9.7 compression rotors (3 of which im putting in my 20b) and not one of them has had this expansion you are talking about. The only expansion I've ever seen with any rotor is with the 1st gens (12A and possibly 13b) with the heavier 3mm apex seals.
Again, the 9.7 compression rotors are fine to use 87 octane in a non boosted application. Its the 10.0:1 and above that I would not. Compression is just too great.
Of course pre-mix can also cause issues, as typically levels of pre-mix above 150:1 can lower the octane a point or two (depending on the quality and RON of the gas in the first place)>
And remember that S4-S6 knock sensors (and I am unsure about FE) all dropped knock sensor input in the stock ECU when there was WOT.
Last edited by Icemark; 03-10-2007 at 12:25 PM.
03-10-2007, 12:39 PM
#104
Originally Posted by bottoms up
i have a 1994 4runner over 200k miles and toyota did alot of recall and warranty work...i didnt even have to pull the bitch card they were very helpful. i love my rx8 but ill swear by toyota for reliabilty (sp?) as well as service. i havent had to deal to much with mazda yet and hopefully wont have to but not alot to go by to compare the two. just gotta put my .02 in for toyota 
03-14-2007, 10:24 PM
#105
Originally Posted by AdRoCK3217
I don't care how well you know how to maintain a car. The fact of the matter is that Mazda placed the factory twins TOO CLOSE to the engine block, with not enough heat shielding. You can change your oil, coolant, and spark plugs all you want - you aren't going to stop heat from pouring off of those turbos, and baking the coolant seals in your block.
Pressurize your 100k+ mile FD's coolant system. Leave it pressurized at 13psi for 2-3 weeks. Sound like a plan? If it's as healthy as you say, you shouldn't be down even a little bit of coolant. My guess is, you will have at least a few drops in your engine..
With my mileage your probably right but considering the fact that I do the water steam clean method, do you really think I would care about a few drops?
You are hear giving advice to others that 87 octane is FINE to run, just because on your personal car (oh, and a few of your friends) which you admit you think the compression is down on..does that sound stupid to you?
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.ph...ghlight=octane
Prove you wrong?! Are you JOKING? Knock sensors will do JUST THAT - sense knock, sense detonation, sense misfire, whatever you want it to do!! A "misfire" on a rotary engines is DEADLY! It only takes ONE small off-set fire to SHATTER an apex seal! What about this do you not comprehend?? Prove you wrong?! - come take a look at my RX7 buddy!!
I understand the effects of detonation perfectly in a rotary. I also understand how Mazda tuned the factory ecu and that my total compression ratio in my Fd is much higher than what people are getting in the Rx8 due to forced induction. The fact is with both engines having the same displacement, and my car making way more hp & torque, the internal pressures and stress levels in my Fd engine making 11psi boost (rougly 265hp with my mods) is alot higher than the NA Renesis period. There is no comparison but yet I can safely run 87 in my more over stressed engine. So why can't YOU comprehend that? 87 is safe in a stock Renesis. That's all I've been saying. Prove to me that 87 will cause detonation high enough that rotary's will blow apex seals in a COMPLETELY STOCK CAR with stock tuning. I have yet in all my years to hear of that happening.
Higher A/F ratio will not compensate for the lower octane. 2 oz 87 != 1 oz 91. It is not better. More of a lower octane fuel will not compensate for running a higher octane. That is retarded to try and argue!
Last edited by T-von; 03-14-2007 at 11:59 PM.
03-14-2007, 10:50 PM
#106
Originally Posted by Icemark
why would it be expanding if you ran the correct grade of gas. All S4 and S5 RX-7 models were designed to run on 87 octane.
Rob at pineapple and Dave Atkins both can back me on this. We talked about it last year at 7 stock and all agree about the issue. I can show you a half dozen rotors sitting in my garage, all with the widened seal groove, all from engines with known knocking or boosted issues and from S4 and up motors.
Again, the 9.7 compression rotors are fine to use 87 octane in a non boosted application. Its the 10.0:1 and above that I would not. Compression is just too great.
.3 differance do you see your paranoya? See my above post about the internal pressures of my fd engine being far greater than the renesis. 87 is fine in stock NA Rx8.
03-15-2007, 12:35 AM
#107
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Originally Posted by T-von
You claimed this expansion was due to not running the correct octane in the second gens. I responded with my own experience with my NA S5.
My experience doesn't include boosted 2nd gens. You never clarified about which models you were talking about b4 when making the expansion claims on the rotors. All that time I was clearly talking about NA S5 rotors.
.3 differance do you see your paranoya? See my above post about the internal pressures of my fd engine being far greater than the renesis. 87 is fine in stock NA Rx8.
My experience doesn't include boosted 2nd gens. You never clarified about which models you were talking about b4 when making the expansion claims on the rotors. All that time I was clearly talking about NA S5 rotors.
.3 differance do you see your paranoya? See my above post about the internal pressures of my fd engine being far greater than the renesis. 87 is fine in stock NA Rx8.
So I am not gonna post on this anymore. Figure it out yourself.
03-15-2007, 10:24 PM
#108
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Bold.
Originally Posted by T-von
Let me guess, your thinking I may be loosing compression cause of this right? Wrong! Any heat pouring off the turbos will only bake the coolant seals on the NON compression side of the engine. I've personally assembled engines with scorched housings on the exhaust side of the engine and had great compression. Regardless, my coolant seals are fine. I properly cool my car down with light driving b4 shutdown. This basically makes my car NA and cools everything. I also run filtered/distilled water in my cooling system which is far less corrosive than tap water. Trust me I know I little something.
What happens when you heat up rubber? Or burn it, melt it...and end up with it being brittle? It shrinks. It cracks, and eventually just doesn't exist anymore (flows away with the coolant). Almost all rotor housings will have a blackened surface from the leading spark plug down. Nothing special here. A proper cool down will help immensely, but it does not change the fact that you have 2 extremely hot turbos boiling away at your coolant and coolant seals, so no, this does not basically make your car NA, that's stupid to think.
With my mileage your probably right but considering the fact that I do the water steam clean method, do you really think I would care about a few drops?
Nope! Not when someones been doing it much much longer than me. Also check out post number 33. This proves my point about 87 being more explosive and why my car starts better with 87 than 91.
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.ph...ghlight=octane
Again, these are far and few in between. Until you show me a vast majority of owners (1/4, 1/3 maybe?) using 87 safely, your point does not work. Again, octane rating is not how explosive the gas is, but rather, at what point it will explode when you don't want it to. If your car, on stock tuning, starts better with 87 than it does 91, then you have an odd car. I'm still not quite sure how you and these other "selected ones" can defy chemistry and physics, they must be some really amazing FD's.
I understand the effects of detonation perfectly in a rotary. I also understand how Mazda tuned the factory ecu and that my total compression ratio in my Fd is much higher than what people are getting in the Rx8 due to forced induction. The fact is with both engines having the same displacement, and my car making way more hp & torque, the internal pressures and stress levels in my Fd engine making 11psi boost (rougly 265hp with my mods) is alot higher than the NA Renesis period. There is no comparison but yet I can safely run 87 in my more over stressed engine. So why can't YOU comprehend that? 87 is safe in a stock Renesis. That's all I've been saying. Prove to me that 87 will cause detonation high enough that rotary's will blow apex seals in a COMPLETELY STOCK CAR with stock tuning. I have yet in all my years to hear of that happening.
Do you run your car up to 9300 rpm? Can you stay at that RPM for an extended period of time, or close (7500+ rpm)? I'm talking minutes. 5, 10, 15 minutes. Can you do that on 87? Go to a road course. I want someone to be there to document the octane of the fuel in your car, and I would like to see your car perform flawlessly (bar driver skill) throughout the entire event. Would you be afraid to do that?
There is no reason to prove to you anything - you simply aren't comprehending. "detonation high enough" - by this I assume you mean a big enough knock. Even a small, very insignificant amount of detonation is enough to pop a seal, man...these aren't piston rings. There is no head gasket to take the blow here. Nothing but apex seal.
You have yet in all your years to hear that happening? The RX8 has only been out since 2003, and most owners aren't stupid enough to run 87. The ones that do, run it in automatics, or don't do extended amounts of high-RPM racing. Sure, 87 will work just fine in an RX8 that is daily driven, and will never see the view of 8000+rpm. But honestly, who with a 6 speed RX8 will not want to run it up to red line, often, at that? 87 octane is not the proper fuel of choice for ALL scenarios, 91 is.
Who's arguing? Yes it will compensate in some degree. It's harder for fuel to pre-ignite if you have to much dumped in. Ecu's can be tuned richer to compensate for a lack of octane. I told you before...this is why the fd has such a rich 10.1 A/F ratio under full load. Mazda knew not everyone would use their recommended fuel grade so they had to compensate for that lower grade by running richer. Even tuning experts know this. The Fd can even run up to 11.5 and be safe under boost at 10psi. There is plenty of margin there. Same goes for the NA Rx8. If you still don't believe me about the compensation, I'll get proof from a rotary tuning expert who has all the respect and trust if you want.
I'd like to see this from Steve Kan, and whoever does the tuning at Mazsport. I'd like them to state specifically that running 87 octane is completely safe for all kinds of driving (cruising, highway pulls, drag strip, road course, auto-x, drift, etc), for use in the RX8, and FD with mods. On the stock tune, no piggybacks, different injectors, etc. Stock amount fuel being injected.
Oh and by the way, Mazda tunes their EMS's to run rich for government-mandated catalytic converter life, and for general precaution. A car that blow's up before the warranty is up (due to a variety of things which cause too little fuel to be injected - clogged fuel sock, dirty filter, dirty injectors, etc) is not something a company strives for.
What happens when you heat up rubber? Or burn it, melt it...and end up with it being brittle? It shrinks. It cracks, and eventually just doesn't exist anymore (flows away with the coolant). Almost all rotor housings will have a blackened surface from the leading spark plug down. Nothing special here. A proper cool down will help immensely, but it does not change the fact that you have 2 extremely hot turbos boiling away at your coolant and coolant seals, so no, this does not basically make your car NA, that's stupid to think.
With my mileage your probably right but considering the fact that I do the water steam clean method, do you really think I would care about a few drops?
Nope! Not when someones been doing it much much longer than me. Also check out post number 33. This proves my point about 87 being more explosive and why my car starts better with 87 than 91.
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.ph...ghlight=octane
Again, these are far and few in between. Until you show me a vast majority of owners (1/4, 1/3 maybe?) using 87 safely, your point does not work. Again, octane rating is not how explosive the gas is, but rather, at what point it will explode when you don't want it to. If your car, on stock tuning, starts better with 87 than it does 91, then you have an odd car. I'm still not quite sure how you and these other "selected ones" can defy chemistry and physics, they must be some really amazing FD's.
I understand the effects of detonation perfectly in a rotary. I also understand how Mazda tuned the factory ecu and that my total compression ratio in my Fd is much higher than what people are getting in the Rx8 due to forced induction. The fact is with both engines having the same displacement, and my car making way more hp & torque, the internal pressures and stress levels in my Fd engine making 11psi boost (rougly 265hp with my mods) is alot higher than the NA Renesis period. There is no comparison but yet I can safely run 87 in my more over stressed engine. So why can't YOU comprehend that? 87 is safe in a stock Renesis. That's all I've been saying. Prove to me that 87 will cause detonation high enough that rotary's will blow apex seals in a COMPLETELY STOCK CAR with stock tuning. I have yet in all my years to hear of that happening.
Do you run your car up to 9300 rpm? Can you stay at that RPM for an extended period of time, or close (7500+ rpm)? I'm talking minutes. 5, 10, 15 minutes. Can you do that on 87? Go to a road course. I want someone to be there to document the octane of the fuel in your car, and I would like to see your car perform flawlessly (bar driver skill) throughout the entire event. Would you be afraid to do that?
There is no reason to prove to you anything - you simply aren't comprehending. "detonation high enough" - by this I assume you mean a big enough knock. Even a small, very insignificant amount of detonation is enough to pop a seal, man...these aren't piston rings. There is no head gasket to take the blow here. Nothing but apex seal.
You have yet in all your years to hear that happening? The RX8 has only been out since 2003, and most owners aren't stupid enough to run 87. The ones that do, run it in automatics, or don't do extended amounts of high-RPM racing. Sure, 87 will work just fine in an RX8 that is daily driven, and will never see the view of 8000+rpm. But honestly, who with a 6 speed RX8 will not want to run it up to red line, often, at that? 87 octane is not the proper fuel of choice for ALL scenarios, 91 is.
Who's arguing? Yes it will compensate in some degree. It's harder for fuel to pre-ignite if you have to much dumped in. Ecu's can be tuned richer to compensate for a lack of octane. I told you before...this is why the fd has such a rich 10.1 A/F ratio under full load. Mazda knew not everyone would use their recommended fuel grade so they had to compensate for that lower grade by running richer. Even tuning experts know this. The Fd can even run up to 11.5 and be safe under boost at 10psi. There is plenty of margin there. Same goes for the NA Rx8. If you still don't believe me about the compensation, I'll get proof from a rotary tuning expert who has all the respect and trust if you want.
I'd like to see this from Steve Kan, and whoever does the tuning at Mazsport. I'd like them to state specifically that running 87 octane is completely safe for all kinds of driving (cruising, highway pulls, drag strip, road course, auto-x, drift, etc), for use in the RX8, and FD with mods. On the stock tune, no piggybacks, different injectors, etc. Stock amount fuel being injected.
Oh and by the way, Mazda tunes their EMS's to run rich for government-mandated catalytic converter life, and for general precaution. A car that blow's up before the warranty is up (due to a variety of things which cause too little fuel to be injected - clogged fuel sock, dirty filter, dirty injectors, etc) is not something a company strives for.
03-16-2007, 10:25 PM
#110
Originally Posted by Icemark
Not gonna argue or even discuss this anymore. Do what you want. You don't understand, and fail to understand or read my posts and instead read what you want into them.
So I am not gonna post on this anymore. Figure it out yourself.
So I am not gonna post on this anymore. Figure it out yourself.
Figure what out? I understand plenty. I know for a fact that 87 is safe in the Rx8. That's what I'm trying to get some of you to understand.
03-16-2007, 11:23 PM
#111
Originally Posted by AdRoCK3217
A proper cool down will help immensely, but it does not change the fact that you have 2 extremely hot turbos boiling away at your coolant and coolant seals, so no, this does not basically make your car NA, that's stupid to think.
There is nothing stupid about the fact that my original engine has lasted much longer than a huge percentage of other Fd owners. Any turbo charged engine that's being operated in a vacuum state is NA. As long as you are not on the throttle hard enough to spool the turbo's (which is exactly what a cool down is used 4) there's no reason for them to heat excessively. It's those people who stupidly shut down their engines after a hard run or think that idling is the best way to cool the car down. Hell that just generates even more heat cause now you don't have any air flow through your radiator or oil coolers. This is exactly why I think turbo timers are useless. Either way my coolant seals and my turbo's are fine cause I do a proper cool down that's beneficial in removing heat. Though my turbo's may still be hot cause of their close proxemity to the engine, they cool down faster cause I shut my engine down at a decent engine temp. Get it?
If your car, on stock tuning, starts better with 87 than it does 91, then you have an odd car. I'm still not quite sure how you and these other "selected ones" can defy chemistry and physics, they must be some really amazing FD's.
If you don't understand it's because your not reading the facts. That link and post number 33 proved my point about 87 having more heat engery. Did you not read it? Here's the quote for you:
Octane rating is the ratio of Octane to Heptane in gasoline, with higher octane gas having more octane (who would have guessed?) However:
Heat of Combustion for heptane: 44.752 MJ/kg
Heat of Combustion for octane: 44.427 MJ/kg
from the wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_of_combustion
So the more Octane you have, the less energy you get when you burn it.
This chemistry lesson brought to you by the letter O.
Notice the highlighted red statement. Why do you think race fuel needs more spark to ignite fully? Same goes for E/ethanol. Lower octane gas gives you more energy but less knock protection. Higher octane gives you more knock protection but less heat energy. The extra heat energy of 87 is why my car starts better.
Again, these are far and few in between. Until you show me a vast majority of owners (1/4, 1/3 maybe?) using 87 safely, your point does not work
Do you run your car up to 9300 rpm? Can you stay at that RPM for an extended period of time, or close (7500+ rpm)? I'm talking minutes. 5, 10, 15 minutes. Can you do that on 87? Go to a road course. I want someone to be there to document the octane of the fuel in your car, and I would like to see your car perform flawlessly (bar driver skill) throughout the entire event. Would you be afraid to do that?
There is no reason to prove to you anything - you simply aren't comprehending. "detonation high enough" - by this I assume you mean a big enough knock. Even a small, very insignificant amount of detonation is enough to pop a seal, man...these aren't piston rings. There is no head gasket to take the blow here. Nothing but apex seal.
You have yet in all your years to hear that happening? The RX8 has only been out since 2003, and most owners aren't stupid enough to run 87. The ones that do, run it in automatics, or don't do extended amounts of high-RPM racing. Sure, 87 will work just fine in an RX8 that is daily driven, and will never see the view of 8000+rpm. But honestly, who with a 6 speed RX8 will not want to run it up to red line, often, at that? 87 octane is not the proper fuel of choice for ALL scenarios, 91 is.
There is no reason to prove to you anything - you simply aren't comprehending. "detonation high enough" - by this I assume you mean a big enough knock. Even a small, very insignificant amount of detonation is enough to pop a seal, man...these aren't piston rings. There is no head gasket to take the blow here. Nothing but apex seal.
You have yet in all your years to hear that happening? The RX8 has only been out since 2003, and most owners aren't stupid enough to run 87. The ones that do, run it in automatics, or don't do extended amounts of high-RPM racing. Sure, 87 will work just fine in an RX8 that is daily driven, and will never see the view of 8000+rpm. But honestly, who with a 6 speed RX8 will not want to run it up to red line, often, at that? 87 octane is not the proper fuel of choice for ALL scenarios, 91 is.
You don't pay much attention to my post do you. Old quote form this thread:
Yes depending on your driving habits. If you run the engine as it was intended & and use the full rpm range all the time, then 91 octane is the best fuel choice. If you granny drive around all the time, it's better to run the lower octane. Rotary's knock mainly happens in the upper rpm ranges under load (6k and up). If your not driving your car to it's potential, then it's pointless to run the 91. That's all I'm saying. Think about this, why run a race fuel if your just cruising on the highway? You would actually have less power because race fuel takes more spark to burn. That's a fact.
I understand fully. Your the one that doesn't comprehend what I'm saying or pay attention to what I've already posted.
I'd like to see this from Steve Kan, and whoever does the tuning at Mazsport. I'd like them to state specifically that running 87 octane is completely safe for all kinds of driving (cruising, highway pulls, drag strip, road course, auto-x, drift, etc), for use in the RX8, and FD with mods.
Oh and by the way, Mazda tunes their EMS's to run rich for government-mandated catalytic converter life, and for general precaution. A car that blow's up before the warranty is up (due to a variety of things which cause too little fuel to be injected - clogged fuel sock, dirty filter, dirty injectors, etc) is not something a company strives for.
Uhhh I knew about that when the 8's were 1st held up at port (look at my registration date). So tell my something I don't already know. That extra fuel is why the 8 can safely run 87.
03-17-2007, 01:42 PM
#114
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I never knew we were talking about anything but stock tune? You said a few times that you knew how rich the stock tune was on your FD, so you knew your margin of error. I dunno, that implies to me that you were talking about a stock tuned FD . . . .
03-17-2007, 02:01 PM
#115
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03-17-2007, 02:16 PM
#116
Originally Posted by AdRoCK3217
I never knew we were talking about anything but stock tune? You said a few times that you knew how rich the stock tune was on your FD, so you knew your margin of error. I dunno, that implies to me that you were talking about a stock tuned FD . . . .
All I was talking about was stock tuning on stock Fd's. Not stock tuning on Fd's that have mods. If that were the case then yes, it would be totally stupid to run 87 under those conditions. All Fd's are tuned excessively rich from the factory. Mine is no different than anyone elses. If you through in some modifications in then all bets are off and you quickly loss that margin. I can now see where some of the confusion was coming from. I'm not trying to be at odds with anyone here. Just trying to help and state some fact as I know it and clear up some well known paranoia with-in the rotary community. With your ownership experience, I thought you were completely aware of how rich all Fd's were tuned. So obviously were both at fault for assuming each others thoughts. That tuning is why I understand the margin of error. Same goes for the Rx8.
Peace!
Last edited by T-von; 03-17-2007 at 02:19 PM.
