ken-x8

Yikes! It's not like he asked what kind of oil to use. I thought his first two questions were kind of interesting. Would everyone prefer that a first post be "I just got one...pics to follow?"

Fernando - welcome to the rotary world. And if anyone razzes you about having an auto, remind them of Jim Hall.

Ken

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Moderator note:
Since most of the discussion has actually been simply the differences between Auto and Manual, I am leaving the thread open, but have removed large chunks of needless and inflamatory comments about other forums and perception of those people on those forums. If any of that returns or personal attacks are made, the thread will get shut down.

Everyone has their preferences, and it's ok to discuss the differences between them as long as everyone keeps in mind that everyone IS different.



My personal distaste for automatics is the lag. Lag on acceleration before it realizes you want to upshift, but even bigger, the lag on braking when the fluid is momentarily still trying to continue pushing the car forward while you are on the brakes. Just a moment, but a moment in an emergency braking situation can mean the difference between inches from their bumper and a few feet of car trying to make love with the one ahead of you.

Manual transmissions drop acceleration the instant you are off the power, and during the transition from one pedal to the next is already starting deceleration. Automatics are still trying to retain speed or even accelerate still during this. Manual mode doesn't solve this lag when going for the brakes.

Art L

I will agree that during deceleration, the auto in most cars don't react as quickly to engine deceleration as a manual, due to the slip in the torque converter . The answer to that is to have a lock-up converter. I had one in the Saturn I owned, and after the engine warmed up and you were driving more then about 15 mph, the converter would lock up. The sensation of engine acceleration and deceleration was just like a manual because there was no converter slip.

As far a autos "even accelerating" when backing off the throttle, I have never experienced that and find it difficult to believe that ever happens. Of course, with throttle by wire, I guess anything is possible.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I think you are mis-applying the description I made.

It's a very momentary sensation, not a run away Toyota. Slush boxes have basically a set of blades on the input shaft side that spin the fluid around, which makes the opposite set of blades turn, producing the force through the transmission gears to the drive axle etc... When the engine side is spinning the fluid faster than the transmission side is currently moving, then even when letting off the gas instantly as you dive for the brakes, the fluid has to decelerate to the speed of the transmission side. It happens very quickly, but for a very brief moment there is still positive force being applied to the transmission side.

Agreed that converter lockup is the correct solution to this.

Between my personal cars, friends and family, and a whole host of rental cars, I have yet to drive a slushbox that did not exhibit this behavior. There is ALWAYS a lag between pedal change and the vehicle responding accordingly, and the lag when going to brakes has always been far more pronounced than the lag for on demand acceleration.

The "autos" of high performance cars like the aforementioned Ferrari don't use this basic concept, and so I don't imagine they would have the same basic complaint.


I would bet that if you took even an RX-8, one auto one manual, had them cruising at 60mph and have a light trigger tell the driver when to brake, the MT will out-brake the AT every time. Because of this lag. Perhaps only a few feet. But those few feet get pretty important when it counts.

1.3_LittersOfFurry

iTrader: (4)

Go drive a 99-05 GrandAm Gt Auto, I had one for 5 years it does it a lot, throttle is cable driven. Keeps you on your toes in traffic.

jamesf

iTrader: (1)

The person who posted the question towards this; Does he mean after having his foot held down quite a bit? Because I actually made a post about this a while ago and I have the same thing happen in my 8 which is a 6 speed manual. But the reason I have it is because a lot of times when you floor it or put your foot down faster than your engine can accelerate, it accelerate quickly once you let your foot off, like its playing a laggy game of catchup. I remember a poster said it might have to do with the way the intake works or to prevent bad things from happening in the motor. You can only shove so much **** inside the cylenders/rotors before you start to have problems. I know because I used to floor my gas pedal a lot, and had the same thing where when I'd let off the gas or back off after the pedal being down, itd pull me.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

^ that sounds like a throttle body or throttle position sensor problem. Both rare, and scary. A normal 8 won't do that and will star decelerating instantly when you let off. Might want to look into that.

FernandoVenezuela

"This is not Wiki8Club. It took many of us years and years of involvement and reading to amass the knowledge. " quoting Eric B here, quoting someone else.

Yeah I understand your frustration, but I dont think this really has anything to do with lazyness or an inability to research. I read the FaQ, I read the new owners thread, I read all the newbie threads...none REALLY answered my question, but sort of did. I think the above quote about it taking years to acquire this knowledge illustrates how ineffective an inefficient this forum is in providing information. Thats why the majority of people come here.

we need a better FAQ and I think I can help you guys do that. I am an English major (haha yeah I know bad spelling, Ipads were not designed for mens hands!) and I work in Ecommerce on a website you have probably heard of, and we deal with issues of people finding stuff all the time.
Let me help by suggesting this, and anyone who wants to pass this on to Godfather avatar guy who runs this site, that would be appreciated.

1. We need a better FAQ that literally answers frequently asked questions, in a Q and A format.
2. we need a full spec sheet for each car model, including most importantly how much the wheels weigh, and how wide they are and similar specs that people will ask a lot about, i.e. horsepower, mileage etc.
3. A true unbiased "how to" section. Including how to squirt wiper fluid, which I can't figure out how to do! haha, and how to change the time on the dash, which took me a bit of time figuring out how to do.
4. Also meaning of all the controls and what they do, like cruise control, various AC controls, DSC, the accel button, etc. Also I know you guys have a list of Dash and CEL, which I found after some digging, but that list should be front and center at the top heading of the forum.
5. organize all of this noob info at the top header of the forums and you won't have to field any noobish ?s'. simply refer people to the top. You guys made an effort to do that, but it needs to be more streamlined. Someone tell Godfather Avatar guy to read this post, because I'm willing to help do the setup work on this if you gents can provide the info I need, I will help you format the forum so that it is useful to noobs and will keep noob questions from bother you.

-thanks hommies.

basically, my beef isn't so much with your attitude but the way the site is organized. We just need a better orginization of info so people can get what they need more efficiently.

FernandoVenezuela

...Also, sorry for the double post, but since everyone is in on this thread I have another related question that goes along with my OP: What gives you better gas mileage: driving an auto in auto mode, or driving the auto in manual mode?

Now I know that higher rpm in all cars equals=worse mileage. Thats why hyper-miler nerds tell people to ease on the gas and slowly accelerate in order to not reach higher RPM's...because according to these hyper-mile junkies high rpms=bad mileage.

Now from that logic, you would think that driving the auto in auto mode, which from my experience barely ever goes above 3k rpm...would be the ticket to better mileage...because it yields lower RPM's than driving in the RPM centric manual mode.

HOWEVER...in most cars, the manual version is EPA rated higher than the auto.

HOWEVER...the RX8 is not most cars! It is, as we all know and love, and RPM centric car. RPM's that almost certainly have to account for the low gas mileage.

So...to sumarize and CLIFFS: Does high RPM manual mode yield better mileage, or low RPM, but constantly shifting auto mode? which is admittedly, very boring to use, but hey, if it saves you gas it would be interesting to know. OR...does it not matter at all?

I tried searching for the answer...couldn't find anyone asking this ?. I think we are breaking new ground here!!! its a ? no one has considered! so give a bro his props man! What do you guys think?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I'm going to play devil's advocate for your suggestions. But keep in mind that I generally agree with you. After all, I'm the one that compiled those newbie threads...

1) An actual Q and A format is very difficult to build because there are so many different ways to approach the same question, and everyone still needs it explained differently. The newbie thread takes a pretty good stab at it with keeping the information updated in the first 9 posts, but it's really the rest of the thread that makes the ACTUAL Q and A. Have a Q? Post it and it will get an A without flaming. The Stupid Questions thread fills this gap very nicely as well. Both are stickies at the top of the subforum to make them easy to find.

2) One of the stickies is also a set of links to the full spec sheet for each year, the changes from year to year, etc...

3) The DIY section is filled with How Tos, from complicated to simple. If there is something missing that you feel should belong there, feel free to contribute and write the DIY!

4) I agree that most of this probably doesn't exist on the forum, probably because most of us find the controls intuitive and natural. If you would like to write up a full set of descriptions, we would be more than happy to sticky it.

5) Stickies are at the top, and will remain there. Old info gets taken down periodically, so it's more-or-less current. Each subforum has it's own sticky collection that pertains to the subject matter of that subforum. Miata.net has a full garage section of all the stickies and just the stickies (basically), and I like that, but there isn't much direct chance of that happening here yet.

And, regardless of what we all type up, there is STILL people that won't bother searching or reading, making you wonder why you put the effort into it in the first place. So we end up just holding out hope that what we work on and keep updated is appreciated by the quiet majority, and the irritatingly blind are just the noticed few.


Most of the organization of the site is the same thing that you get when you start out with a lumber mill on a creek in the 1700s that grows to a collection of houses, a street gets worn into the grass, more people show up and it becomes a small village, maybe the road gets some cobblestones, the village grows to a town, gains some sort of governing body and grow increases rapidly through all of the stages until you are trying to figure out how to fit the super highway, the public transit network, and an airport without tearing up anyone's 200 year old home.


But, that's the nature of car forums. Starts out with just a concept from the factory, years of speculation and idle chatter and finally release, and THEN the learning and growing begins, with lots of false steps, lots of resident change over, and at any one point in time the information on hand is the best, the newest, and the most relevant, but it is all largely obsolete within 6 months anyway.

Add in how everyone's different personality and persona mix with friendships, cliques, grudges, bias, wars, fraud, true love (no, really). It becomes quite a wacky monster to try to manage.

I am the newest moderator, and was made a moderator due to my efforts around the forum in peacemaking and compiling information in clear easy to understand ways. If you think you can improve stuff, step up to the plate!

Stephen T

Hi, I'm another newbie and in trying to research gearboxes and type s differences I ended up here. The answers were helping but in a roundabout way. I'm trying to decide which model to buy and must admit that the system makes it awkward to get the answers I want and maybe a more analytical approach to the search feature might help. On the other and, I'm finding out stuff I wouldn't have thought to ask, so thanks, it's really interesting. I assume the models down here in New Zealand are similar if not the same. Cheers, Stephen.

nogoer

First post to resurrect an old thread on an overly debated topic, watch it or you'll find yourself engulfed in flames

My opinion on this matter. You are buying a SPORTS car and as such it should be a manual. Why bother with an auto that has less HP and eats up some of what it has left with the auto trans. If you're getting a daily driver car then by all means go for ease of driving, but you are not. You are buying an RX8, be a man and sack up to a manual. You will regret not having that shifter. Unless this will be your daily driver, then thats a whole different opinion for a different thread.

1.3_LittersOfFurry

iTrader: (4)

I drive my stick daily through traffic. It's not hard.....

RadRedR3

Is driving an automatic in manual mode better? Well it depends. It's better than getting kicked in the nuts. It's not better than getting a bj'er while eating a slice of pizza and watching the Super Bowl.

So, after careful consideration of the question i'd have to say... It depends.

monchie

All i could say is...it's like operating a joystick...

Marklar

Most people around here prefer the manual, not only because it has better performance but because we tend to be sports car enthusiasts who enjoy driving a manual more.

But you own an auto and you like it, so you really shouldn't give a **** what we think about that. You can never be wrong about what you like, and you shouldn't let other people's opinions ruin your fun. If you like your auto, then just enjoy it, it doesn't matter if other people like your car it only matters that you like it.

Marklar

It's not hard, but it sure ain't fun when traffic is creeping along at 5 mph and your car won't do less than 7 mph in first with the clutch completely engaged. Those are times when I kinda wish I had an auto.

1.3_LittersOfFurry

iTrader: (4)

I hear ya. I already know I'm going to be wishing the same thing for the next hurricane evacuation.

ken-x8

I prefer manuals, and never wish for an auto even when in heavy traffic. The only slush box cars I've owned were beaters, bought strictly for transportation.

But, that said, auto can be fun. All you do is mash the gas and steer. And if I need a fantasy while driving an auto, I just think of Jim Hall.

Ken

SayNoToPistons

iTrader: (8)

Clutch fully engaged in 1st with no throttling is ~4mph...

Sway

Manuals are def the most fun but bc of my daily driving in Richmond and having a young child in back, I had to go with auto. My car still looks ******* awesome and stands out even tho I'm lacking in what 20 some HP?
Who cares...as long as you take care of your **** and aren't a total douche, it shouldn't matter what or who anyone drives.
I feel that most of these threads are always trying to stir up petty bs when it's not necessary.

nogoer

Said like a true automatic driver



sorry could'nt resist, im not really trying to instigate anything.

Sway

Yep and all my other cars are manuals...what's your point?

thebetteryou

My 8 is automatic, I drive it sometimes manual mode when I feel like it. Sure, I wish it was stick, but it came around at an amazing price, & it's still fun. I like it. If you like it, don't care what anyone else thinks. It would probably be more fun as stick, but it's all preferences.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Might want to research that a bit

A clutch should last you at least 60,000 miles, 90,000 miles if you aren't abusive. Even at 60,000 miles, a new OEM clutch kit is $360, installation is DIYable, or pay someone around $300-400 to do it for you. Fluid should be changed every 30,000, which is $40 and insanely easy. Call it $840 every 60,000, or about 1.4 cents per mile.

Automatic transmissions require fluid flushing every 30,000 miles, and part of the "requirement" here is to drop the AT oil pan and change the oil filter. Not a simple DIY at all. You can drain and fill of course, but don't expect to keep your transmission alive. Most AT fluid flush quotes are in the $400-$600 range. Even calling it $400, it's about 1.3 cents per mile.

A more likely comparison would be ~0.9 cents per mile for the MT, ~2 cents per mile for the AT. If you DIY the clutch replacement, this gap opens up to a factor of 4 between them.

Then, have you considered that AT owners could easily trend toward a higher brake pad replacement rate, as ATs don't lend themselves well to decelerating off of engine braking alone. Or that they are heavier, typically are slightly less gas efficient, etc...

I'd call the costs in favor of the MT, but it's still not really enough to be a basis for decision making.

The #1 reason for selecting an Automatic over a Manual is simply driving preference, and this is usually due to EITHER traffic saturation or health. People with bad hips, knees, ankles, etc... gravitate to automatics because of the pain clutches give them.

I thoroughly encourage MT to everyone, as I feel it helps to make them a better driver, even if just slightly, by improving their involvement in the driving process, but there are plenty of reasons out there for people to opt for ATs.