Driving automatic in Manual Mode Better?
 

hey bros, first time poster long time lurker. Just recently picked up a used 06 RX8 automatic GT. Was floored by the test drive. It was like driving a rocket ship! pretty awesome and pretty intense. I'm doing all the right things maintenance-wise but I had a question:

I know everyone hates the automatic RX8 drivers, BUT I really dig driving in manual mode. In fact, for the first few weeks I didn't even know how to drive it in regular auto! haha. I kept messing with the knob shifter trying to find it, until I finally did! haha I know, pretty bad. But basically what I'm curious about is:

1. does driving in manual mode on the automatic, better for the engine than driving in strictly auto? Does it increase the life of the engine?

2. does it yield better gas mileage?

3. does it give you more power than in auto mode?/as much power as a true manual rx8?

4. if I drive it in manual only mode am I still considered a sissy auto owner? hahha.

thanks for any answers, and sorry in advance for the noobish nature of my ?'s Im sure they have been asked many times. InB4 "learn how to use the search bar!"

you sound like a troll but I just think you are too lazy to research.
1. we all said redline a day keeps the carbon away. driving in manual mode has nothing to do with engine life. you still can keep the RPM down if you want to but manual mode does give you ability to keep the rpm up.
2. again, it has nothing to do with what mode you are in. its the way you drive. I dont think lead footing in auto mode will give you better MPG than driving like a granny in manual mode.
3. no. your 06 auto has 210hp where manual version has 232hp. different redline and tune.
4. that would depend on you. you can either dont give a fuck or you can consider its a bit pussy driving an auto. I drive a manual car and an automatic car depending if I am just going to work and buy grocery or hitting the curves and pretend I am a pro driver doing all the heel and toe.

no my question was def legit. no troll. I did do research, but there's not a lot of talk about the manual mode in the auto.

Yeah I definitely noticed that the rpm is higher. I've heard talk that the auto's have more engine trouble than the manuals....thus running an auto in manual mode would logically seem to be alleviate some of this????

same with performance. I've noticed manual mode has noticeably more acceleration. its not just a placebo...there's def more torque.

Older autos were troublesome. And, your logic is flawed. It had nothing to do with the transmission.

It feels more powerful because of the red line. No difference, otherwise

Auto = 4 speed
Manual = 6 speed

What's faster? Get a manual if you want to go fast.

06 has 6 speed auto and 210hp.

Oh...never knew that. lol

1. Nobody knows
2. No
3. No
4. Yes

Ken

1. Yes
2. No
3. No
4. Yes (by most of the people here)

1. Yes, cuz' you rev to higher rpm where the power of the rotary is. In auto mode, it keeps you around 3k or 4k. The peak torque is around 5k, fyi.
2. In auto mode yes, not in manual mode. Really depends on how you drive and your average rpm.
3. More than auto mode, cuz' you can rev much higher at anytime. No point to compare to manual...you know why.
4. You are what you are, not what you drive. lol

Not true. I have an '07 auto, and if I floor it, it won't upshift until it reaches the 7500 rpm redline. Push down 2/3 of the way, and it will always fly past 5k and shift at closer to 6k.

As far as the auto goes, I find myself leaving it in auto mode more often then not, as it definitely shifts a whole lot more then if I were to take over the shifting chores. At 75 mph, pushing to about half throttle, the auto will downshift to fourth, something I probably wouldn't consider while putting it in manual mode. Fifth perhaps, but not down to fourth. This auto shifts a whole lot more then I would be shifting under normal driving. Also, there's a turn onto a wide, seldom used back street I use going to work. It's sort of my redline a day run. I'll make the turn, stomp on the gas, the auto will downshift to second, run to the redline, shift to third, run to the redline where I'll then back off before I start to run out of room before the intersection. When I back off, the trans will not upshift immediately like most autos. I'll wait for about 3-4 seconds as if it's anticipating that I just may want to stomp on it again. I've never experienced such an intuitive auto. The Mazda engineers really thought through the programming of this auto. I find it hard to improve on how they set it up. That's not to mean that I never use the paddle shifters, as they are a lot of fun, but I use them much less then I thought I would when I first got the car.

This is the first sports car I've ever owned with an auto. Besides all of those I've owned in the past, my current other two, the Miata and the '59 TR3, both have manuals. I originally wanted an RX-8 with a manual, but this one with the auto came around, and I was pleasantly surprised when I drove it, so I bought it.

I dont really see the difference in using the manual mode vs driving the manual car. I know the auto is less HP, but unless your commute includes a 120 mph stretch of nurburgring I think the difference is pretty negligible.

Actually, handling is much better when you use manual mode on a AT 8. No joke. That's one fact most don't know.

1. Not all members brag, or even care about the difference between manual/auto.
2. Many users here are young and immature.
3. Up until the part that I quoted as bold, I was kind of agreeing with you.

I'm also on bodybuilding forums. No joke. :evil_laug

manuals are just more fun and more involving. nobody said manuals are better, its all personal opinion. I just like to work with the gearbox and clutch and have fun with heel & toe. I also have an auto BMW just to get grocery and go to work. nothing wrong with it and I like it.

not saying I'm some kind of bad ass bodybuilder, just that I use the forums on bb.com and I think this site should emulate that site. I mean being an rx8 owner is just like being a fitness freak...it makes you a minority. And as members of a minority subculture we should share info and stick together, not be hardcore phaggots. Thats all I'm saying! hhaha. Its an Rx8 bros....not a ferrari...lets be real here...haha.

I still dont understand what you saying.

so you are saying Ferraris are all autos?
I dont get what you saying here. just drive the damn car and be happy about it. no one is judging you only yourself.

Actually, as of 2012, all Ferraris will come equipped only with paddle shifters. The clutch pedal is history. Ferrari click-clack manual transmissions, RIP | Car Blogs | Car Magazine Online

Not exactly an auto (with torque converter) , but clutch work and heel-and-toe have been relegated to the trash bin.

The fact of the matter is that the six speed auto in the RX-8 is an excellent transmission. If you haven't driven one, find an RX-8 with one and give it a go, both in auto and manual mode. Any criticism you had for it previously might just vanish. The only way it could have been made better would have been to make it like the transmission in the Ferraris. It can't be that expensive to do, they had them available in the Toyota MR2's.

I know. its sad. I still prefer a proper manual.:worship:

Enjoy the car man! My last a car was 350Z auto and went up to the Dragon and put that sucker in manuel mode had just as much fun as a Manuel. I almost bought a GT with a Auto but got a better deal on my Sport 6 speed RX-8.

P.S. The Dragon's tail at Deal's Gap is this

I track a 07 6spd auto, and this guy has the best review of the trans that I've heard.

I think it's next to impossible for a person to feel the load better than the car, and I'm too distracted finding the tires limits while I drive.

I just let it shift normally for any driving, and I get best mileage easing around town; not keeping high revs.

When you feel like it just go floor board it a lot to put a heat and rpm load on it to clean carbon.

I autocrossed and drove like I stole a 73 RX3 with 4 speed manual, and this auto is much more fun (I never miss or scratch a syncho either).

With an auto, your left foot will atrophy.

Ahhh... no problem. Adjust your training to compensate for the idle left foot, and you'll be fine. :)

Ken

let me preface by saying that I have never driven a manualmatic car versus a manual car of the same make and model, but I have driven plenty of manual cars, auto cars, and manualmatic cars. The manualmatic cars in manual mode do not feel any where near the same as a manual car. There is no arguement that a manualmatic car in manual mode will most likely shift smoother and faster than a manual car, because of the human factor...but it is the human factor that makes driving fun

do you want to drive a car? or have the car drive you? for me, the less electro-driver-assist-gadget-doodads there is on a car the better. If you flip your car going around a bend because you went in too hot, then too bad for you, learn to drive. Each new generation of cars with its "safety features" that dictates how a driver should drive makes driving less and less fun for me...the thing I hate most about my rx8, besides the fake pieces that do nothing for the car, is the audio controls and cruise controls on the steering wheel...the steering wheel is for steering, not for fumbling around with the audio controls

All from the faq, theres no need for any debate here. It is what it is.

Also from Riwwp and teamrx8..

Why are we so hard / harsh on newbies?

You may notice that many new owners join this forum and promptly create a thread that generates lots of negative feedback from the people already here, the newbie ends up getting butthurt about it and claims it's a "mean forum" or "we are all dicks", etc... Not every newbie of course, and just the fact that you are reading this thread means you probably won't subject yourself to that. But why do we do it?

Here is a fantastic post from TeamRX8 on why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamRX8
This involves several issues. The first being that you can't see beyond your own immediate needs and wants. This is not Wiki8Club. It took many of us years and years of involvement and reading to amass the knowledge.

Imagine somebody coming here daily, in fact it is often multiple people daily, asking if not demanding the same information over and over again. We are not your on demand servants. We are people just like you with other priorities and demands in our lives, limited time, our own personal interests for being here, etc. Why should we spend that time catering to people that come here seeking instant gratification?

That leaves us with two options. We can either ignore you completely or we can tell that the info is here if you bother to make the effort. However, over several years of telling people this you eventually get fed up dealing with the continuous stream of people seeking instant gratification yet you still would rather point them in the right direction so you just bark at them to get the point across. Imagine someone coming to your house, going to your living room, pulling their pants down, and taking a dump right there on the carpet just because they didn't know any better. You might be annoyed and yet also understanding because they didn't know any better. Now imagine this being a different person doing this every day. It wouldn't be long before you just as soon they go away and never come back.

Almost every day there is some clueless dolt posting a tech or troubleshooting question in the DiY area, despite there being a sticky thread at the top saying to only post threads there with DIY instructions and subsequent discussion of same. The real issue is that people think they are free to just come here and do as they damn well please and there's no need for etiquette, rules, structure, or organization unless it serves their own personal interest.

Well guess what? We're not here to cater to new uninformed people that come in here trampling all over everything regardless if they're ignorant, just don't care, or whatever. This is like any social community and so if you make waves you better expect to deal with it. If you don't like it then get the f' out because the established community could care less about some newbie whining about not getting what they want immediately. We do care about you clogging up the search engine with useless threads on already established subjects, which there is a dedicated thread on this very subject in this same forum area no less. It took me 10 minutes to explain this. Now imagine multiple people daily requiring it, so you make a Sticky thread at the top that says "read this first" and yet every single new person just like yourself thinks they are beyond trying to fit in properly so that this forum operates smoothly for all of us.

You probably don't read Japanese, but the line in my sig is a well known Japanese proverb that reads "the nail that sticks out gets hammered". You made yourself that nail.

Most of the people that are being the hammer for those nails use either the New Posts feature (https://www.rx8club.com/search.php?do=getnew) or the Live! feature (RX8 Live!) (both are in your top bar under the banner), and see posts with issues pretty quickly. We do not use these features with the express intention of flaming and bashing. We use them so that when someone posts up an actual issue that needs actual help, we can react quickly to their request.

We do not do this because we are paid to do it, we do it because we believe in our community (at one level or another). We want to improve it and make it better, so as we have time during our normal lives we look for issues we can help with, we look for new ideas, new projects, etc... But, in the process, we see all the garbage that people clutter the forum with because they feel themselves above reading what has already been posted, and that garbage gets to us. So thank you for reading, and your help is certainly appreciated in guiding people this way too.

Yikes! It's not like he asked what kind of oil to use. I thought his first two questions were kind of interesting. Would everyone prefer that a first post be "I just got one...pics to follow?"

Fernando - welcome to the rotary world. And if anyone razzes you about having an auto, remind them of Jim Hall.

Ken

Moderator note:
Since most of the discussion has actually been simply the differences between Auto and Manual, I am leaving the thread open, but have removed large chunks of needless and inflamatory comments about other forums and perception of those people on those forums. If any of that returns or personal attacks are made, the thread will get shut down.

Everyone has their preferences, and it's ok to discuss the differences between them as long as everyone keeps in mind that everyone IS different.



My personal distaste for automatics is the lag. Lag on acceleration before it realizes you want to upshift, but even bigger, the lag on braking when the fluid is momentarily still trying to continue pushing the car forward while you are on the brakes. Just a moment, but a moment in an emergency braking situation can mean the difference between inches from their bumper and a few feet of car trying to make love with the one ahead of you.

Manual transmissions drop acceleration the instant you are off the power, and during the transition from one pedal to the next is already starting deceleration. Automatics are still trying to retain speed or even accelerate still during this. Manual mode doesn't solve this lag when going for the brakes.

I will agree that during deceleration, the auto in most cars don't react as quickly to engine deceleration as a manual, due to the slip in the torque converter . The answer to that is to have a lock-up converter. I had one in the Saturn I owned, and after the engine warmed up and you were driving more then about 15 mph, the converter would lock up. The sensation of engine acceleration and deceleration was just like a manual because there was no converter slip.

As far a autos "even accelerating" when backing off the throttle, I have never experienced that and find it difficult to believe that ever happens. Of course, with throttle by wire, I guess anything is possible. :wallbash:

I think you are mis-applying the description I made.

It's a very momentary sensation, not a run away Toyota. Slush boxes have basically a set of blades on the input shaft side that spin the fluid around, which makes the opposite set of blades turn, producing the force through the transmission gears to the drive axle etc... When the engine side is spinning the fluid faster than the transmission side is currently moving, then even when letting off the gas instantly as you dive for the brakes, the fluid has to decelerate to the speed of the transmission side. It happens very quickly, but for a very brief moment there is still positive force being applied to the transmission side.

Agreed that converter lockup is the correct solution to this.

Between my personal cars, friends and family, and a whole host of rental cars, I have yet to drive a slushbox that did not exhibit this behavior. There is ALWAYS a lag between pedal change and the vehicle responding accordingly, and the lag when going to brakes has always been far more pronounced than the lag for on demand acceleration.

The "autos" of high performance cars like the aforementioned Ferrari don't use this basic concept, and so I don't imagine they would have the same basic complaint.


I would bet that if you took even an RX-8, one auto one manual, had them cruising at 60mph and have a light trigger tell the driver when to brake, the MT will out-brake the AT every time. Because of this lag. Perhaps only a few feet. But those few feet get pretty important when it counts.

Go drive a 99-05 GrandAm Gt Auto, I had one for 5 years it does it a lot, throttle is cable driven. Keeps you on your toes in traffic.

The person who posted the question towards this; Does he mean after having his foot held down quite a bit? Because I actually made a post about this a while ago and I have the same thing happen in my 8 which is a 6 speed manual. But the reason I have it is because a lot of times when you floor it or put your foot down faster than your engine can accelerate, it accelerate quickly once you let your foot off, like its playing a laggy game of catchup. I remember a poster said it might have to do with the way the intake works or to prevent bad things from happening in the motor. You can only shove so much shit inside the cylenders/rotors before you start to have problems. I know because I used to floor my gas pedal a lot, and had the same thing where when I'd let off the gas or back off after the pedal being down, itd pull me.

^ that sounds like a throttle body or throttle position sensor problem. Both rare, and scary. A normal 8 won't do that and will star decelerating instantly when you let off. Might want to look into that.

"This is not Wiki8Club. It took many of us years and years of involvement and reading to amass the knowledge. " quoting Eric B here, quoting someone else.

Yeah I understand your frustration, but I dont think this really has anything to do with lazyness or an inability to research. I read the FaQ, I read the new owners thread, I read all the newbie threads...none REALLY answered my question, but sort of did. I think the above quote about it taking years to acquire this knowledge illustrates how ineffective an inefficient this forum is in providing information. Thats why the majority of people come here.

we need a better FAQ and I think I can help you guys do that. I am an English major (haha yeah I know bad spelling, Ipads were not designed for mens hands!) and I work in Ecommerce on a website you have probably heard of, and we deal with issues of people finding stuff all the time.
Let me help by suggesting this, and anyone who wants to pass this on to Godfather avatar guy who runs this site, that would be appreciated.

1. We need a better FAQ that literally answers frequently asked questions, in a Q and A format.
2. we need a full spec sheet for each car model, including most importantly how much the wheels weigh, and how wide they are and similar specs that people will ask a lot about, i.e. horsepower, mileage etc.
3. A true unbiased "how to" section. Including how to squirt wiper fluid, which I can't figure out how to do! haha, and how to change the time on the dash, which took me a bit of time figuring out how to do.
4. Also meaning of all the controls and what they do, like cruise control, various AC controls, DSC, the accel button, etc. Also I know you guys have a list of Dash and CEL, which I found after some digging, but that list should be front and center at the top heading of the forum.
5. organize all of this noob info at the top header of the forums and you won't have to field any noobish ?s'. simply refer people to the top. You guys made an effort to do that, but it needs to be more streamlined. Someone tell Godfather Avatar guy to read this post, because I'm willing to help do the setup work on this if you gents can provide the info I need, I will help you format the forum so that it is useful to noobs and will keep noob questions from bother you.

-thanks hommies.

basically, my beef isn't so much with your attitude but the way the site is organized. We just need a better orginization of info so people can get what they need more efficiently.

...Also, sorry for the double post, but since everyone is in on this thread I have another related question that goes along with my OP: What gives you better gas mileage: driving an auto in auto mode, or driving the auto in manual mode?

Now I know that higher rpm in all cars equals=worse mileage. Thats why hyper-miler nerds tell people to ease on the gas and slowly accelerate in order to not reach higher RPM's...because according to these hyper-mile junkies high rpms=bad mileage.

Now from that logic, you would think that driving the auto in auto mode, which from my experience barely ever goes above 3k rpm...would be the ticket to better mileage...because it yields lower RPM's than driving in the RPM centric manual mode.

HOWEVER...in most cars, the manual version is EPA rated higher than the auto.

HOWEVER...the RX8 is not most cars! It is, as we all know and love, and RPM centric car. RPM's that almost certainly have to account for the low gas mileage.

So...to sumarize and CLIFFS: Does high RPM manual mode yield better mileage, or low RPM, but constantly shifting auto mode? which is admittedly, very boring to use, but hey, if it saves you gas it would be interesting to know. OR...does it not matter at all?

I tried searching for the answer...couldn't find anyone asking this ?. I think we are breaking new ground here!!! its a ? no one has considered! so give a bro his props man! What do you guys think?

I'm going to play devil's advocate for your suggestions. But keep in mind that I generally agree with you. After all, I'm the one that compiled those newbie threads...

1) An actual Q and A format is very difficult to build because there are so many different ways to approach the same question, and everyone still needs it explained differently. The newbie thread takes a pretty good stab at it with keeping the information updated in the first 9 posts, but it's really the rest of the thread that makes the ACTUAL Q and A. Have a Q? Post it and it will get an A without flaming. The Stupid Questions thread fills this gap very nicely as well. Both are stickies at the top of the subforum to make them easy to find.

2) One of the stickies is also a set of links to the full spec sheet for each year, the changes from year to year, etc...

3) The DIY section is filled with How Tos, from complicated to simple. If there is something missing that you feel should belong there, feel free to contribute and write the DIY! :)

4) I agree that most of this probably doesn't exist on the forum, probably because most of us find the controls intuitive and natural. If you would like to write up a full set of descriptions, we would be more than happy to sticky it.

5) Stickies are at the top, and will remain there. Old info gets taken down periodically, so it's more-or-less current. Each subforum has it's own sticky collection that pertains to the subject matter of that subforum. Miata.net has a full garage section of all the stickies and just the stickies (basically), and I like that, but there isn't much direct chance of that happening here yet.

And, regardless of what we all type up, there is STILL people that won't bother searching or reading, making you wonder why you put the effort into it in the first place. So we end up just holding out hope that what we work on and keep updated is appreciated by the quiet majority, and the irritatingly blind are just the noticed few.


Most of the organization of the site is the same thing that you get when you start out with a lumber mill on a creek in the 1700s that grows to a collection of houses, a street gets worn into the grass, more people show up and it becomes a small village, maybe the road gets some cobblestones, the village grows to a town, gains some sort of governing body and grow increases rapidly through all of the stages until you are trying to figure out how to fit the super highway, the public transit network, and an airport without tearing up anyone's 200 year old home.


But, that's the nature of car forums. Starts out with just a concept from the factory, years of speculation and idle chatter and finally release, and THEN the learning and growing begins, with lots of false steps, lots of resident change over, and at any one point in time the information on hand is the best, the newest, and the most relevant, but it is all largely obsolete within 6 months anyway.

Add in how everyone's different personality and persona mix with friendships, cliques, grudges, bias, wars, fraud, true love (no, really). It becomes quite a wacky monster to try to manage.

I am the newest moderator, and was made a moderator due to my efforts around the forum in peacemaking and compiling information in clear easy to understand ways. If you think you can improve stuff, step up to the plate!

Hi, I'm another newbie and in trying to research gearboxes and type s differences I ended up here. The answers were helping but in a roundabout way. I'm trying to decide which model to buy and must admit that the system makes it awkward to get the answers I want and maybe a more analytical approach to the search feature might help. On the other and, I'm finding out stuff I wouldn't have thought to ask, so thanks, it's really interesting. I assume the models down here in New Zealand are similar if not the same. Cheers, Stephen.

First post to resurrect an old thread on an overly debated topic, watch it or you'll find yourself engulfed in flames ;)

My opinion on this matter. You are buying a SPORTS car and as such it should be a manual. Why bother with an auto that has less HP and eats up some of what it has left with the auto trans. If you're getting a daily driver car then by all means go for ease of driving, but you are not. You are buying an RX8, be a man and sack up to a manual. You will regret not having that shifter. Unless this will be your daily driver, then thats a whole different opinion for a different thread.

I drive my stick daily through traffic. It's not hard.....

Is driving an automatic in manual mode better? Well it depends. It's better than getting kicked in the nuts. It's not better than getting a bj'er while eating a slice of pizza and watching the Super Bowl.

So, after careful consideration of the question i'd have to say... It depends.

All i could say is...it's like operating a joystick...

Most people around here prefer the manual, not only because it has better performance but because we tend to be sports car enthusiasts who enjoy driving a manual more.

But you own an auto and you like it, so you really shouldn't give a fuck what we think about that. You can never be wrong about what you like, and you shouldn't let other people's opinions ruin your fun. If you like your auto, then just enjoy it, it doesn't matter if other people like your car it only matters that you like it.

It's not hard, but it sure ain't fun when traffic is creeping along at 5 mph and your car won't do less than 7 mph in first with the clutch completely engaged. Those are times when I kinda wish I had an auto.

I hear ya. I already know I'm going to be wishing the same thing for the next hurricane evacuation. :lol:

I prefer manuals, and never wish for an auto even when in heavy traffic. The only slush box cars I've owned were beaters, bought strictly for transportation.

But, that said, auto can be fun. All you do is mash the gas and steer. And if I need a fantasy while driving an auto, I just think of Jim Hall.

Ken

Clutch fully engaged in 1st with no throttling is ~4mph...

Manuals are def the most fun but bc of my daily driving in Richmond and having a young child in back, I had to go with auto. My car still looks fucking awesome and stands out even tho I'm lacking in what 20 some HP?
Who cares...as long as you take care of your shit and aren't a total douche, it shouldn't matter what or who anyone drives.
I feel that most of these threads are always trying to stir up petty bs when it's not necessary.

Said like a true automatic driver



sorry could'nt resist, im not really trying to instigate anything.

Yep and all my other cars are manuals...what's your point?

My 8 is automatic, I drive it sometimes manual mode when I feel like it. Sure, I wish it was stick, but it came around at an amazing price, & it's still fun. I like it. If you like it, don't care what anyone else thinks. It would probably be more fun as stick, but it's all preferences.

Might want to research that a bit :)

A clutch should last you at least 60,000 miles, 90,000 miles if you aren't abusive. Even at 60,000 miles, a new OEM clutch kit is $360, installation is DIYable, or pay someone around $300-400 to do it for you. Fluid should be changed every 30,000, which is $40 and insanely easy. Call it $840 every 60,000, or about 1.4 cents per mile.

Automatic transmissions require fluid flushing every 30,000 miles, and part of the "requirement" here is to drop the AT oil pan and change the oil filter. Not a simple DIY at all. You can drain and fill of course, but don't expect to keep your transmission alive. Most AT fluid flush quotes are in the $400-$600 range. Even calling it $400, it's about 1.3 cents per mile.

A more likely comparison would be ~0.9 cents per mile for the MT, ~2 cents per mile for the AT. If you DIY the clutch replacement, this gap opens up to a factor of 4 between them.

Then, have you considered that AT owners could easily trend toward a higher brake pad replacement rate, as ATs don't lend themselves well to decelerating off of engine braking alone. Or that they are heavier, typically are slightly less gas efficient, etc...

I'd call the costs in favor of the MT, but it's still not really enough to be a basis for decision making.

The #1 reason for selecting an Automatic over a Manual is simply driving preference, and this is usually due to EITHER traffic saturation or health. People with bad hips, knees, ankles, etc... gravitate to automatics because of the pain clutches give them.

I thoroughly encourage MT to everyone, as I feel it helps to make them a better driver, even if just slightly, by improving their involvement in the driving process, but there are plenty of reasons out there for people to opt for ATs.