Deadly crash in Chicago!
03-14-2007, 01:14 PM
#26
Bruce Van
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Regardless of whether the driver was at fault or not, it was a tragic accident and a horrible way to die for all parties involved.
Whenever I have people in the car, I'm a safe driver. Being responsible for people's lives is a very serious matter.
Wreckless driving is solo driving.
Whenever I have people in the car, I'm a safe driver. Being responsible for people's lives is a very serious matter.
Wreckless driving is solo driving.
03-14-2007, 01:28 PM
#27
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I never push my 8 with passengers. I feel for the families involved. I have lost friends due to these sort of accidents. This is why I pay $200 a month for insurance.
03-14-2007, 01:30 PM
#28
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Detrich, the guy died, you don't have to call him a ********. A lot of people screw around in their cars, some people mess up.
we started following this this morning on the chicago forum...a friend of theirs joined and posted. I thought you guys should read it too.
we started following this this morning on the chicago forum...a friend of theirs joined and posted. I thought you guys should read it too.
Originally Posted by Japican
PLease guys do not jump to any conclusions...2 of the 3 killed were my best friends and I knew them very well. The reporters were hunting us like meat looking for answers and stories and we told them nothing. Anything they say is based on speculation...I was with them jus hours before they crashed and there was no alcohol involved. The way they died was horrifying and all I ask is that u keep them in your prayers.
I was the reason my friend bought this RX8...i was there the day he bought it and he fell in love with it the moment he got in it. He was an extreme rotary enthusiast jus like many of u but most of all he was a good person. Please pary for him and the 2 others involved.
I was the reason my friend bought this RX8...i was there the day he bought it and he fell in love with it the moment he got in it. He was an extreme rotary enthusiast jus like many of u but most of all he was a good person. Please pary for him and the 2 others involved.
03-14-2007, 01:36 PM
#29
The Big kahuna
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Another tragedy in an 8
03-14-2007, 01:46 PM
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What bugs me is the reporting... One eyewitness says they though the car was "going as fast as possible from the last stoplight". I know my car can hit about 80 mph between my complex exit and the nearest intersection, which is almost the distance I can through a baseball! Whether or not this car, with 3 people in it, could hit that speed is subject to debate. My question is, if it's a 2004 RX-8, were those stock rear tires. If so, I'll bet they were bald.
Second point of contention, the video shot by the news looks like the street is mostly straight there. They crashed an RX-8 in a straight line? Hopped a curb and slammed into a pole sideways? The only photo I can see shows skid marks in the foreground (the photo posted at the beginning of this thread). This means not only did they skid around backwards, but slid through one lane before going over the curb and slamming into that massive overpass support (technically, that's not a "pole" but a big-*** piece of iron and concrete!). That car has massive structural damage (the video shows the roof is crumpled all the way over to the driver's side). Folks, I'm going to say this car was FLYING!
I'm puzzled by the spinout and loss of control with available DSC and the helical LSD in the back. There's no mention of a puddle, or hydroplaning in the police quote. The police begin their quote with "The vehicle...", which is like saying "The gun went off while in the criminal's hand..." Even the closing, tear-jerking comment by one of the deceased victims' friends blames the car... "It was just wet, and with that type of car..."
Yes folks, the verdict is in in the media. Our gas-guzzling, CO2-emitting RX-8s are dangerous irresponsible vehicles, more likely to launch us off straight roads sideways, into massive "poles", resulting in a fiery deaths (unfortunately for the two passengers. Don't get me wrong. This IS a tragedy for the families involved, even the driver's.
But... could the people following not have helped? Did they just stand around and watch? The quoted eyewitness said he was "several cars back" at the stoplight, which indicates there were more cars, and thus possibly more people who could have gotten involved. That driver's door looks like it was opened without any force, despite the damage to the car. If the movie companies would stop showing car "explosions" more people would know that gasoline simply burns, and they might have been able to help those poor students out by wrapping a shirt over their hands before yanking on the door handle. Yeah, you might get a little scaling from it, but isn't that better than watching people die. That's what truly makes me sick and mad!
Second point of contention, the video shot by the news looks like the street is mostly straight there. They crashed an RX-8 in a straight line? Hopped a curb and slammed into a pole sideways? The only photo I can see shows skid marks in the foreground (the photo posted at the beginning of this thread). This means not only did they skid around backwards, but slid through one lane before going over the curb and slamming into that massive overpass support (technically, that's not a "pole" but a big-*** piece of iron and concrete!). That car has massive structural damage (the video shows the roof is crumpled all the way over to the driver's side). Folks, I'm going to say this car was FLYING!
I'm puzzled by the spinout and loss of control with available DSC and the helical LSD in the back. There's no mention of a puddle, or hydroplaning in the police quote. The police begin their quote with "The vehicle...", which is like saying "The gun went off while in the criminal's hand..." Even the closing, tear-jerking comment by one of the deceased victims' friends blames the car... "It was just wet, and with that type of car..."
Yes folks, the verdict is in in the media. Our gas-guzzling, CO2-emitting RX-8s are dangerous irresponsible vehicles, more likely to launch us off straight roads sideways, into massive "poles", resulting in a fiery deaths (unfortunately for the two passengers. Don't get me wrong. This IS a tragedy for the families involved, even the driver's.
But... could the people following not have helped? Did they just stand around and watch? The quoted eyewitness said he was "several cars back" at the stoplight, which indicates there were more cars, and thus possibly more people who could have gotten involved. That driver's door looks like it was opened without any force, despite the damage to the car. If the movie companies would stop showing car "explosions" more people would know that gasoline simply burns, and they might have been able to help those poor students out by wrapping a shirt over their hands before yanking on the door handle. Yeah, you might get a little scaling from it, but isn't that better than watching people die. That's what truly makes me sick and mad!
03-14-2007, 01:57 PM
#32
Extraordinary Engineering
I can tell you from personal experience that DSC will not help you on wet cold pavement with stock summer tires. Winter road salt, melting snow and a lack of sunshine only make things worse.
DSC needs some grip to work with and at some point the inertia of the car overwhelms the available grip and control is lost.
This tragedy, like so many others, was completely avoidable.
DSC needs some grip to work with and at some point the inertia of the car overwhelms the available grip and control is lost.
This tragedy, like so many others, was completely avoidable.
03-14-2007, 02:01 PM
#33
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^ Actually thinking about it hoping a curb on wacker would take some serious speed. Majority fo the curbs down there are 6". As mentioned earlier in this thread though there are sections with a lot of pot holes and hitting one in the wet at speed could make ANY car lose traction (even around slight turns).I have felt the back end move around on me down there(I have a base model with no DSC) so it is possible but you woudl have to be going REALLY fast (110+).
In terms of the reporting the news likes to make a "story" which may or may not involve all of the facts. A buddy of mine was in a miata going about 70(common for the highways around Chicago) when he got cut off by an H2 driven by a mindless person jabering on their phone. He went off road rolled the car(he was fine). The eye witnesses said he was driving irresponsibly, and as you had stated the police report started with "the vehical went off road....." reporting a "story" instead of facts ticks me off.
In terms of the reporting the news likes to make a "story" which may or may not involve all of the facts. A buddy of mine was in a miata going about 70(common for the highways around Chicago) when he got cut off by an H2 driven by a mindless person jabering on their phone. He went off road rolled the car(he was fine). The eye witnesses said he was driving irresponsibly, and as you had stated the police report started with "the vehical went off road....." reporting a "story" instead of facts ticks me off.
03-14-2007, 02:04 PM
#34
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I really feel for the families. It was just a big mistake that costed him his life and 2 others. My guess he was showing off. I've been there and the dsc/tc is a burden when you try and burn out with 2 cuties in the back.
But if it makes anyone feel any better the whole article is FAKE. Did anyone catch the "It took off real fast from the stoplight after revving its engine". Gimme a break, our cars couldn't do that, especially with 2 passengers.
But if it makes anyone feel any better the whole article is FAKE. Did anyone catch the "It took off real fast from the stoplight after revving its engine". Gimme a break, our cars couldn't do that, especially with 2 passengers.
03-14-2007, 02:11 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by GT34
I really feel for the families. It was just a big mistake that costed him his life and 2 others. My guess he was showing off. I've been there and the dsc/tc is a burden when you try and burn out with 2 cuties in the back.
But if it makes anyone feel any better the whole article is FAKE. Did anyone catch the "It took off real fast from the stoplight after revving its engine". Gimme a break, our cars couldn't do that, especially with 2 passengers.
But if it makes anyone feel any better the whole article is FAKE. Did anyone catch the "It took off real fast from the stoplight after revving its engine". Gimme a break, our cars couldn't do that, especially with 2 passengers.
03-14-2007, 02:19 PM
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+1 I never drive fast with passengers. It'd be the worst thing to kill your passenger than have to live the rest of your life knowing you killed someone while showing off
03-14-2007, 02:24 PM
#39
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It makes me kinda sick that someone was alive and suffocated in the back because someone wouldn't go in there to pull the door open, or break the back window to pull them out.
The fire damage doesn't look very bad from the pic at all. The radiator is fully intact so that right there says that either the fire wasn't in the engine compartment or wasn't that hot...
The fire damage doesn't look very bad from the pic at all. The radiator is fully intact so that right there says that either the fire wasn't in the engine compartment or wasn't that hot...
03-14-2007, 02:24 PM
#40
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I don't know the road at all, nor do I know the driver, but I think its safe to say that this could have happened to anyone on these forums, so there's no need to be so damn critical.
Let's assume that he was on the right tires, he had DSC, he was saftey-conscious, he wasn't driving as fast as the media is leading us to beleive, and he was a pretty damn decent driver. Like anyone here, he loves the sound of his engine, and was trying to show it off a little to his passengers. He revs at the light, but that fails to satisfy, so he quickly gets off the line and shows off the sound whilst in motion. Shifting @ 9k from 1st to 2nd was smooth as glass, which he wasn't expecting due to the wet condidtions. Misled by this moment of unexpected traction, he gives it a more agressive shift from 2nd to 3rd...
...Back end slips...
Stunned by this sudden slip, he quickly counter-steers, lets off the throttle, and proceeds to put his driving experience to good use and SAFELY recover the car. However, being an experienced driver, he almost always drives with his DSC off, but tonight, given the weather and the additional passengers, decided to turn it on for this particular trip.
Well, in that instant of slip, insticts took over, and he found himself severely over-correcting as the DSC jumped in. With computers botching up his finely-tuned reflexes, he finds his car sliding sideways @ 60+mph. He tries his best to recover, but it's too late...
Now be honest - anyone here is guilty of speeding. We've all shown off, we've all reved for the sake of hearing our engines, we've all had fun droping the jaws of RX-virgins, and we've all lost control for a second or two while just having a little fun. You don't have to be doing something outrageously stupid to wreck your car, and not all crashes involving speeding vehicles are the result of inexperience.
Yeah, it's possible that this guy could have been carelessly and recklessly driving beyond his ability. But there's also a chance that he could have been an intelligent, curteous, cautious guy who knew his limits, but was just unfortuneate enough to take a small chance at the worst possible moment in time.
Let's assume that he was on the right tires, he had DSC, he was saftey-conscious, he wasn't driving as fast as the media is leading us to beleive, and he was a pretty damn decent driver. Like anyone here, he loves the sound of his engine, and was trying to show it off a little to his passengers. He revs at the light, but that fails to satisfy, so he quickly gets off the line and shows off the sound whilst in motion. Shifting @ 9k from 1st to 2nd was smooth as glass, which he wasn't expecting due to the wet condidtions. Misled by this moment of unexpected traction, he gives it a more agressive shift from 2nd to 3rd...
...Back end slips...
Stunned by this sudden slip, he quickly counter-steers, lets off the throttle, and proceeds to put his driving experience to good use and SAFELY recover the car. However, being an experienced driver, he almost always drives with his DSC off, but tonight, given the weather and the additional passengers, decided to turn it on for this particular trip.
Well, in that instant of slip, insticts took over, and he found himself severely over-correcting as the DSC jumped in. With computers botching up his finely-tuned reflexes, he finds his car sliding sideways @ 60+mph. He tries his best to recover, but it's too late...
Now be honest - anyone here is guilty of speeding. We've all shown off, we've all reved for the sake of hearing our engines, we've all had fun droping the jaws of RX-virgins, and we've all lost control for a second or two while just having a little fun. You don't have to be doing something outrageously stupid to wreck your car, and not all crashes involving speeding vehicles are the result of inexperience.
Yeah, it's possible that this guy could have been carelessly and recklessly driving beyond his ability. But there's also a chance that he could have been an intelligent, curteous, cautious guy who knew his limits, but was just unfortuneate enough to take a small chance at the worst possible moment in time.
03-14-2007, 02:28 PM
#41
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Horrified. I feel for their suffering and now their families as well.
+1 to fast being relative - w/o trying to push my 8, I generally leave all the other cars at a stoplight behind quickly. When trying they become specs even quicker.
+1 to turbo - that was the first thing I though - or perhaps a wet shot.
+1 to not taking risks w/passengers. I've always felt that it's my choice to f8ck around when it will only be me who pays the price.
My .02 on the fire - the article sounded like it was a fast and very intense fire. Not really the kind anyone (including the firefighters) could get through safely.
+1 to fast being relative - w/o trying to push my 8, I generally leave all the other cars at a stoplight behind quickly. When trying they become specs even quicker.
+1 to turbo - that was the first thing I though - or perhaps a wet shot.
+1 to not taking risks w/passengers. I've always felt that it's my choice to f8ck around when it will only be me who pays the price.
My .02 on the fire - the article sounded like it was a fast and very intense fire. Not really the kind anyone (including the firefighters) could get through safely.
Last edited by dmc27; 03-14-2007 at 02:33 PM.
03-14-2007, 02:30 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by QBallz
The fire damage doesn't look very bad from the pic at all. The radiator is fully intact so that right there says that either the fire wasn't in the engine compartment or wasn't that hot...
03-14-2007, 02:36 PM
#44
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Wow... I just bought my 8 less than a week ago... this is a chilling story. I suppose the only thing I could really say is, take this as a lesson that we are not invincible, even in our really great cars. It's like Uncle Ben said, with great powers, comes great responsibility.
It's tough to hold back when you've got more power than 90% of the folks around you. We can only speculate on what happened, but deep down we all know this could have happened to any of us.
My prayers to the families & friends whom lost their loved ones.... and to all my fellow 8 drivers on this forum.
I'm trying to learning all the mechanics of my car before I really take her out for a drive... Like G.I. Joe said, "Knowing is half the battle.." Until then, I'll be taking baby steps to get to know the car.
Alas, no one can defeat the forces of nature... RESPECT her or be owned...
It's tough to hold back when you've got more power than 90% of the folks around you. We can only speculate on what happened, but deep down we all know this could have happened to any of us.
My prayers to the families & friends whom lost their loved ones.... and to all my fellow 8 drivers on this forum.
I'm trying to learning all the mechanics of my car before I really take her out for a drive... Like G.I. Joe said, "Knowing is half the battle.." Until then, I'll be taking baby steps to get to know the car.
Alas, no one can defeat the forces of nature... RESPECT her or be owned...
03-14-2007, 02:38 PM
#45
It is sad that this happened.
The two females weren't drinking but it wasn't reported if the driver was. One of the friends that wasn't with stated that they weren't speeding, drinking, or doing anything wrong.
How can they say that if they weren't there? 
The coverage seemed very improv.
03-14-2007, 02:39 PM
#46
Super Moderator
Very sad for the families and ALL concerned, I would imagine the firefighters would be impacted also..
Please have some respect, as Zoom said in another thread this could be a forum member.
Please have some respect, as Zoom said in another thread this could be a forum member.
03-14-2007, 02:41 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by ½mv²
I don't know the road at all, nor do I know the driver, but I think its safe to say that this could have happened to anyone on these forums, so there's no need to be so damn critical.
Let's assume that he was on the right tires, he had DSC, he was saftey-conscious, he wasn't driving as fast as the media is leading us to beleive, and he was a pretty damn decent driver. Like anyone here, he loves the sound of his engine, and was trying to show it off a little to his passengers. He revs at the light, but that fails to satisfy, so he quickly gets off the line and shows off the sound whilst in motion. Shifting @ 9k from 1st to 2nd was smooth as glass, which he wasn't expecting due to the wet condidtions. Misled by this moment of unexpected traction, he gives it a more agressive shift from 2nd to 3rd...
...Back end slips...
Stunned by this sudden slip, he quickly counter-steers, lets off the throttle, and proceeds to put his driving experience to good use and SAFELY recover the car. However, being an experienced driver, he almost always drives with his DSC off, but tonight, given the weather and the additional passengers, decided to turn it on for this particular trip.
Well, in that instant of slip, insticts took over, and he found himself severely over-correcting as the DSC jumped in. With computers botching up his finely-tuned reflexes, he finds his car sliding sideways @ 60+mph. He tries his best to recover, but it's too late...
Now be honest - anyone here is guilty of speeding. We've all shown off, we've all reved for the sake of hearing our engines, we've all had fun droping the jaws of RX-virgins, and we've all lost control for a second or two while just having a little fun. You don't have to be doing something outrageously stupid to wreck your car, and not all crashes involving speeding vehicles are the result of inexperience.
Yeah, it's possible that this guy could have been carelessly and recklessly driving beyond his ability. But there's also a chance that he could have been an intelligent, curteous, cautious guy who knew his limits, but was just unfortuneate enough to take a small chance at the worst possible moment in time.
Let's assume that he was on the right tires, he had DSC, he was saftey-conscious, he wasn't driving as fast as the media is leading us to beleive, and he was a pretty damn decent driver. Like anyone here, he loves the sound of his engine, and was trying to show it off a little to his passengers. He revs at the light, but that fails to satisfy, so he quickly gets off the line and shows off the sound whilst in motion. Shifting @ 9k from 1st to 2nd was smooth as glass, which he wasn't expecting due to the wet condidtions. Misled by this moment of unexpected traction, he gives it a more agressive shift from 2nd to 3rd...
...Back end slips...
Stunned by this sudden slip, he quickly counter-steers, lets off the throttle, and proceeds to put his driving experience to good use and SAFELY recover the car. However, being an experienced driver, he almost always drives with his DSC off, but tonight, given the weather and the additional passengers, decided to turn it on for this particular trip.
Well, in that instant of slip, insticts took over, and he found himself severely over-correcting as the DSC jumped in. With computers botching up his finely-tuned reflexes, he finds his car sliding sideways @ 60+mph. He tries his best to recover, but it's too late...
Now be honest - anyone here is guilty of speeding. We've all shown off, we've all reved for the sake of hearing our engines, we've all had fun droping the jaws of RX-virgins, and we've all lost control for a second or two while just having a little fun. You don't have to be doing something outrageously stupid to wreck your car, and not all crashes involving speeding vehicles are the result of inexperience.
Yeah, it's possible that this guy could have been carelessly and recklessly driving beyond his ability. But there's also a chance that he could have been an intelligent, curteous, cautious guy who knew his limits, but was just unfortuneate enough to take a small chance at the worst possible moment in time.
I have done stupid ****, typically without people in the car, but I am guilty of doing certain dumb things with people in the car. And guilty of losing control with someone in the car when I was doing something I have done safely dozens of times in the past. I was able to control it enough for nothing bad to happen, but some times you just aren't expecting things to go wrong.
03-14-2007, 02:48 PM
#48
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Wait until it's picked up by the MSM... the story will shift to "Dangerous Sport Car Causes Fiery Deaths".
My .02... there's some other cause of the spin up the road from the crash. Pot hole or puddle. An RX-8 with a 15% increase in rear weight bias (two passengers) will not "just fishtail and lose control", DSC or no DSC! If the car didn't spin the tires during the 1st to 2nd shift, it's not going to do it at the 2-3 upshift (all conditions being the same). A pothole, mid-corner while accelerating would do it. The question I have for Chicagoans is: Is there a turn to the left or the right preceeding the crash site on Lower ****** Road?
My .02... there's some other cause of the spin up the road from the crash. Pot hole or puddle. An RX-8 with a 15% increase in rear weight bias (two passengers) will not "just fishtail and lose control", DSC or no DSC! If the car didn't spin the tires during the 1st to 2nd shift, it's not going to do it at the 2-3 upshift (all conditions being the same). A pothole, mid-corner while accelerating would do it. The question I have for Chicagoans is: Is there a turn to the left or the right preceeding the crash site on Lower ****** Road?
03-14-2007, 02:50 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by QBallz
The fire damage doesn't look very bad from the pic at all. The radiator is fully intact so that right there says that either the fire wasn't in the engine compartment or wasn't that hot...
The article doesn't say that the passenger in the back died from being burned alive - it says she died of smoke inhalation. The gas tank could have ruptured & ignited UNDER and AROUND the vehicle. If there are flames coming up from the gasoline-soaked concrete by the doors, no wrapping of shirts around your hands is going to make opening the door possible. The intense heat from the fire outside of the vehicle would be enough to cause all the interior plastic, rubber, and leather to melt, bubble, and smoke. All of those materials emit toxic vapors when heated.
Fill a compartment as small as an RX8 interior with 3 types of toxic gases + gasoline vapors and you've got a lethal mixture. Put someone inside that compartment who's hyperventilating from fear/injury/fighting to get out/screaming for help, and within 60 seconds their bloodstream will be filled with enough toxins to cause them to black-out.
Based on the picture & video provided, I don't think there was anything witnesses could have done to help, nor do I think the passengers were fully concious/aware enough to "suffer" much before they died.
Why does everyone on these boards have to be so damn critical and negative about the human race? Seriously, I don't understand how someone can live assuming that everything written between the lines is just pure & rotten miserable human stupidity and arrogance.
03-14-2007, 02:56 PM
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Very sad for the families. Not for me to criticize, God knows I've done way more than my share of dumb **** over the past 50 years. I've just been luckier than some other people.
I don't know if it's a factor in this crash, but leave your DSC on when you're on the street! It is absolutely the best part of this car. I know I'll get arguments, but if you pay attention, the DSC will certainly help you avoid these situations. Just a word to the wise.
I don't know if it's a factor in this crash, but leave your DSC on when you're on the street! It is absolutely the best part of this car. I know I'll get arguments, but if you pay attention, the DSC will certainly help you avoid these situations. Just a word to the wise.