neit_jnf

I don't know the stock RX-7's acceleration numbers but I went to the track and this brand new EVO (don't know the mileage) came up and burned the quarter mile @ 13.60s first pass and 13.49s second and best pass.

m477

I saw a local FD here run a 13.5 with no mods other than a downpipe. A ~300rwhp FD would be well into the 12s.

Efini 8

Don't get me wrong, the evo8 is a great car, but if I were to get one I dont think I would forgive myself for spending $35000+ on a car that simply looks ugly and the interior looks like ***. It does look like a regular lancer, but handles like a beast! Mad crazy acceleration and with the turbo you are bound to have fun. The lancer evo8 is a performance enthusiasts' car, and sales typically show that people that are into auto performance are getting the lancer because it is a proven winner in rally. However I believe the rx-8 is the best bang for my buck at the current time.

AbusiveWombat

If you look at the power to weight ratios of the two it's pretty close:

EVO8 = 3260/271 = 12.0 #/hp
RX8 = 3029/247 = 12.2 #/hp

But....the EVO8 has a broader power band....but the RX8 is able to hold the gears longer. It's close but only from a roll. From a stop the EVO has the choice of destroying the RX8 (along with clutch or tranny) or keep it close.

As far as a EVO8 being close to the acceleration of a 300 hp FD...no way. The FD is close, if not faster, stock.

revhappy

$35K +???? I got mine for about $31K including tax and tags.

Lethalchem

You need to compare torque numbers though. That and the AWD is where the huge difference is.

AbusiveWombat

You don't need to compare torque numbers because then the RX8 would look really slow. Acceleration always comes down to horsepower and weight. Another way of comparing acceleration is look at 1/4 mile trap speeds. The EVO traps ~100 mph. The RX8 traps around 96 mph.

Ohhh this might also help. I raced a S2000 from a rolling start and it was dead even. It was a hot day (FI cars are hurt more on hot humid days than NA cars) and I don't know if the S2000 had any mods.

S2000= 2800/240 = 11.6 #/hp
EVO8 = 3260/271 = 12.0 #/hp

So basically my broader power band kept up with the peaky powerband of the S2000. In the end we can only get a ballpark figure because truely analizing these cars would be too complicated requiring a dyno graph of each on the same dyno, gear ratio analysis,...blah blah blah...just to find out in the end the EVO8 is faster from a roll. It's close but it's still faster.

AbusiveWombat

Ohhh and I didn't pay $35,000....I walked out with the car a tick under $30,000.

Lethalchem

I'm going to have to disagree with you. The torque is what gets a car moving. If you have a high HP car, but makes lousy torque, you're going to have a hard time getting going. Think of the cars that run at the salt flats. They want high top speed, not acceleration.

At the track, Torque get's you ET's, Horsepower gets you MPH. It's the torque that gives you the "seat of the pants" feel on the street, thereby making the car more or less enjoyable. You are correct about a broad powerband being desirable, but it's a flat torque curve that you want, not HP.

AbusiveWombat

You're right that torque gives you that seat of the pants feeling but how do you explain why and S2000 and a 350z run the same 1/4 mile time when their respective torque values are over 100 ft-lbs different?

S2000:
weight= 2800
hp = 240
tq = 153 ft-lbs
1/4 mile low 14's to high 13's
#/hp = 11.6

350z:
weight = 3225
hp = 287
tq = 274 ft-lbs
1/4 mile low 14's to high 13's
#/hp = 11.2

You're correct that the low torque car will have a harder time launching. I believe that for the S2000 to hit low 14's it has to drop the clutch at 5000-6000 rpms while the 350z only has to drop the clutch around 3000. Now if the S2000 and 350z were to race from a 5 mph roll then the 350z would eat the S2000 up but from a dig, with the proper launch, the S2000 can hang with the 350z. The 350z will also be more consistent from a dig, cause even if you screw up the launch you have the torque to save you. From a 20-30 mph roll the two cars will again be very very close.

So I still say that when comparing acceleration it comes down to horsepower and weight. Torque is a nice bonus (for those that like torquey cars) but is not necessary when just comparing a car's potential acceleration. Again...this is not an exact science...just a ball park figure (it does not compare area under the curve, gear ratios, drivetrain loss...etc.)

Lethalchem

I can't answer that, as I don't have any factual numbers to compare. I can't use magazine stats because they are invariably innacurate, and I've yet to see an S2000 run at the track I frequent. I do know that everyone seems to comment on how much of a dog the S2000 is to drive though.

And what would happen if the 350 dropped at 5-6k as well? The Z would run faster. It's like you're forcing the Z to race in a higher gear by limiting it to a lower RPM.

If the Z starts any of the above races in the proper gear, it will always win, because it's got the torque to get it's heavy *** moving. I will admit though, that if you start the race at a high enough MPH, then torque WILL become a useless factor. I was referring to daily driving though. The torque numbers will cause the car with the more robust torque to be faster around town, which is why I mentioned comparing that number. Surely you wouldn't drive the S2000 @ 6000rpms all day long just to feel as fast

I agree:D

AbusiveWombat

If you drop the clutch at 5-6k with the 350z you'll smoke the tires. It's just like with the '03 Cobra which you launch at like 2000 rpms...anything higher and you sit and spin.


If you start any rolling race while the S2000 is in VTEC then it will be very very close. this includes 1st gear which vtec kicks in somewhere in the 20's maybe. If you start the race at a speed where the S2000 is not in vtec (1-2x mph) then yes, the S2000 will lose some ground initially until vtec kicks in.

You're right that around town the S2000 will feel slower due to the lack of torque but we were talking about racing. But the acceleration is just a downshift or double downshift away. It's the same with the RX8...you use the gears for acceleration...not just the gas pedal. Where as with the 350z you can just mash on the gas.

If you go to the S2000 Forum you will find plenty of time slips and war stories of S2000 vs. 350z. They seem to be arch rivals like the RX8 vs. G35 vs. 350z.

neit_jnf

People keep saying that torque is what gives you acceleration and I believe they are half right. You're missing a very important factor, it's torque AT THE WHEELS and weight what really matters. That's why you have to take gearing into consideration as well as weight. Simple Newton Laws...

Lethalchem

I'm going to have to give in to you at this point. I'm at my limit of knowledge concerning these cars. Having never driven the 350 or the S2000, I don't feel educated enough about them to be able to rebuke, so I defer to your experience.

I'm not sure we were arguing in the same context though. You mentioned we were talking about drag racing, and I thought we were just discussing normal driving conditions. If we're talking drag racing, then everything's changed, because even my Cobra can be launched hard with ET streets.:D

On street tires, I can slip my clutch at 2500rpm and pull 1.93 60' times. Now I wish I would have done a launch with the RX-8 when I test drove it. Are you saying you can dump an S2000 at 5k without traction problems? I've never even ridden in one, so I have no clue. I thought any car on street tires would need AWD to pull that off.

I appreciate the information you gave, it's always good to hear new things about what's out there and what people are doing. This low-torque world is all new to me, so you guys will probably have to put up with a lot of my noob questions. Redirection and clarification is always welcome. Thanks:D.

P.S. I still don't believe you can dismiss torque from any equation involving accelleration:p

OneEvilRx8

in my opinion the evo, is a lot faster than the rx8, I used to work for mitsu, and Mazda and the evo, is a lot faster, than the rx-8 but it req. a lot more to maintained, but is definitely faster....

AbusiveWombat

For any car that has high horsepower and low torque (S2000 or RX8) the key to drag racing is to get to where the car makes the most horsepower. For these cars its above 6000 rpms! These are probably the hardest street cars to launch. The key for the S2000 is to get enough tire spin to get the engine into VTEC but not so much tires spin that you just melt the tires. To little revs and the engine bogs. Bog one of these cars and the race is totally over because then you've got to climb from ~2000 rpms up to where the engine makes power. The reason for the high rpm launch is the engine does not make enough power to spin the tires until around 4-5k rpms (not sure one this one).

You're still right. Torque definately helps. In your Cobra you only need to drop the clutch at 2500. If you bog your car it's easy for it to recover compared to the S2000. That's where torque helps. You are probably much more consistent at launching than an S2000 owner.

Here's a link to an earlier thred where I did the gear ratio calculations between the RX8 and 350z. It gets a little hard to compare these two cars because one redlines at 6500 while the other redlines at 9000. But since both the 350z and the RX8 gears have close to the same max speed in each gear then I would have to say that in each gear the 350z is faster.

My 350z vs RX8 gear ratio analysis

In the end these are all cars with nearly the same power to weight ratios. So they're all very close to one another.

Also...one more thing to remember and why torque at the wheels is not so important.

hp = torque * rpms / 5252

The horsepower at the wheels never changes. The gears will multiply the torque but they also divide the rpms so the horsepower remains the same.

syntrix

That is why all dyno's intersect tq/hp at 5252... easy to spot a fake dyno

Also, check on the board at what some people are weighing in for the rx8 with sport package, there's been 2 or 3 that are just a click over 2900lbs

I have that package, and I really need to hit up the truck scales on the other side of town soon

manbar

uhmmm....................no

lefuton

i don't get it

uhmm...no what?

-=Zeqs=-

180 WHP on the low power engine meaning the A/T? My 8 feels quick and all..but it feels more in the range of...160 WHP...

-=Zeqs=-

Never EVER bone down in your car if you love it...it's a curse. My Civic for instance...my lady and I got busy in it a couple of times...then the engine burnt a valve...started building a race engine. Six months later, the burnt valve was accompanied by a bent rod. The engine is still not complete. NEVER EVER GET BUSY IN A CAR!

-=Zeqs=-

As for torque VS HP from a stand still...

Why is it that of two cars that are extremely similar in all aspects other than the engine will yield roughly the same performance stats?

No idea? Compare an Acura Integra in base trim with a 00 Honda Civic Si. They both weigh in at approxiamently 2700 lbs. Both are FF setups with about the same weight distribution.

Civic Si = 160 BHP & 111 ft-lb.
Integra LS = 140 BHP & 132 ft-lb.

They both run pretty much the same quarter mile. On the 1/8 mile, the LS wins.

NskGenakuDuckie

Hmmm... what kinda car did you guys own/driven before you got in the RX8 and said it's "freakin fast"????

I love the looks of the car but I heard the news that Mazda lied about the HP #'s, and an owner actually dynoed his 6-speed at something like 180 WHP and 117 lb ft of torque.

That made me very curious and I went to the dealership today.... test drove the 6-speed in hopes of not too much disappointment. Well guess what..... the car has no power whatsoever. Comparing it to my car (99' Eclipse GST) this car has no low end torque, and it's nowhere near being "freakin fast" at WOT. I doubt it even produces 200HP using my butt dyno.

Even though I have never driven the EVO, but rated at 280hp, I'd say it's going to be MUCH faster than the RX8... considering that my car at 210hp is already faster.

Everything about the car is great, I just wish it had more torque/power.

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

It all is a package. Power/Weight/Handling/Brakes etc...

I just wish my package had an extra 50HP. Then it would be a real weapon

I have come from a 300+ rwHP LS1 to the RX8. The straight line acceleration is not the same, but that is about the only downside.

I'm still smiling My dealer told me it had the same power as the previous turbo RX though. I never challenged him on that. It is apparent now that that was not exactly true

Cheers,
Hymee.

-=Zeqs=-

Power is relative...because as an advertisement tool, the dealers are quick to point out horsepower, which is fine and dandy and all, but without the low end torque to back it up, the horsepower just feels souless. I agree..I want the extra package that hooked up an extra 50 HP, while they're at it, throw in the missing 30 lbs of torque too