There has to be a better way....
10-29-2006, 09:11 AM
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There has to be a better way....
I began negotiating for an RX-8 last week. And so, the stupid mating ritual of buying a car begins, with all of the feints and acting, the shell games, the whole bit.
One day, the current dealership system will be blown to bits. You'll go to Costco, pick out what you want, and for a straight markup, with everything included, you'll get the car you want delivered to the store for pick up. No kabuki dance.
This is bullshit. I know what I want- I don't need to buy from an actor.
One day, the current dealership system will be blown to bits. You'll go to Costco, pick out what you want, and for a straight markup, with everything included, you'll get the car you want delivered to the store for pick up. No kabuki dance.
This is bullshit. I know what I want- I don't need to buy from an actor.
11-01-2006, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MP3Guy
I began negotiating for an RX-8 last week. And so, the stupid mating ritual of buying a car begins, with all of the feints and acting, the shell games, the whole bit.
One day, the current dealership system will be blown to bits. You'll go to Costco, pick out what you want, and for a straight markup, with everything included, you'll get the car you want delivered to the store for pick up. No kabuki dance.
This is bullshit. I know what I want- I don't need to buy from an actor.
One day, the current dealership system will be blown to bits. You'll go to Costco, pick out what you want, and for a straight markup, with everything included, you'll get the car you want delivered to the store for pick up. No kabuki dance.
This is bullshit. I know what I want- I don't need to buy from an actor.
The current system is flawed and the whole process is tedious and pointless, but if one price for all is what you want then there's always saturn and scion. I prefer this system to that one because I can get a great deal on my car from a dealer because the dealer can just make up the difference from a sucker. If it was one price for all, the sucker would probably pay less, but those who are we.lll informed about the worth of cars, etc. will have to pay more regardless. In the end, the dealers will always get their money.
I just don't like it when even if you walk in their well informed and with a ton of research, dealers will still try to lie to you. One dealer I spoke to tried to say he was selling his 2006 at a loss to me since they can afford to do that since they sell so many. I knew for a fact his price still netted him a sizable profit, but I refused to deal with him after that. I don't mind the dealer making some money, but when they try to maximize every deal, it gets annoying. Accept some people are born suckers and some aren't!
11-03-2006, 05:32 PM
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Just my two bits.
Research the car you want, decide on a fair price (don’t insult the dealer; it doesn’t say Mazda charitable sales). I think 500 over invoice is a fair deal for both parties on a current year model. Model year ending, or last year new, dip lower. Don’t monthly payment shop, tell them exactly the price you want to pay total, and be polite. Don’t let the salesman take control of the conversation. "This is the model I want, this is what I would like to pay, can you do that?"
Research the car you want, decide on a fair price (don’t insult the dealer; it doesn’t say Mazda charitable sales). I think 500 over invoice is a fair deal for both parties on a current year model. Model year ending, or last year new, dip lower. Don’t monthly payment shop, tell them exactly the price you want to pay total, and be polite. Don’t let the salesman take control of the conversation. "This is the model I want, this is what I would like to pay, can you do that?"
11-04-2006, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by filthyfish
Just my two bits.
Research the car you want, decide on a fair price (don’t insult the dealer; it doesn’t say Mazda charitable sales). I think 500 over invoice is a fair deal for both parties on a current year model. Model year ending, or last year new, dip lower. Don’t monthly payment shop, tell them exactly the price you want to pay total, and be polite. Don’t let the salesman take control of the conversation. "This is the model I want, this is what I would like to pay, can you do that?"
Research the car you want, decide on a fair price (don’t insult the dealer; it doesn’t say Mazda charitable sales). I think 500 over invoice is a fair deal for both parties on a current year model. Model year ending, or last year new, dip lower. Don’t monthly payment shop, tell them exactly the price you want to pay total, and be polite. Don’t let the salesman take control of the conversation. "This is the model I want, this is what I would like to pay, can you do that?"
Salesmen who lie don't get any respect from me. If they're going to go and try to tell me they're selling me the car at a loss already because they are so big, they can afford to do that. Umm, ok.
They're making a profit regardless of what happens, but I'm going to to pay the least amount they're willing to sell a car for.
11-04-2006, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by ello13
They're making a profit regardless of what happens, but I'm going to to pay the least amount they're willing to sell a car for.
You’re absolutely right. Two things were driven into my head when I first started selling cars, "it’s all about perception" and "the customer is capable of making the decision". Meaning, if the customer perceived it to be a good deal, they were happy, and they are always able to say 'no'. Point being, now that I don’t sell for a living, the flip side is, the salesman is fully capable of saying 'no' when you or I drive a hard bargain.
11-04-2006, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by no dice
a print out of edmunds invoice pricing wouldnt hurt either..
Coupla' points.
First, I see no reason why buying a car still has to be a shell game. The price the manufacturer sets is about as useful as an EPA mileage rating, and deliberately overbaked. A car should be sold like any other item is sold- the process is a joke.
Second, I'm not sure Edmunds has the "real" invoice pricing.
11-04-2006, 08:53 PM
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are you a young guy??? when i bought the car they tried every trick possible, even had me sit and wait while they "talked about it in the back." total BS, but its expected.
11-04-2006, 09:46 PM
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Use the internet sales manager. IMO, the ISM people are probably better than your average sales floor guy who is there primarily to get the most profit of each vehicle whereas an ISM may have a different goal, move X amount of cars = bonus for him, profit may be a 2nd thing to him. Plus, in my experience the ISM usually gives you out a better quote from the start than your average sales person.
Another thing, be ready to walk if you feel uncomfortable through the sales process. you should always feel that you have control of what you're about to sign or the numbers thrown at you. Also it doesn't hurt to be professional with them, as it may surpise them when you're cool, calm, and collected. Aggressiveness doesn't always work in your favor sometimes. Make them feel unstable of the sale by not showing so much passion and extreme towards the car. (I usually go in thinking, i dont care if i get this car today or not, there another car like this at some other dealer). In the end, only you truly know what a fair price is because that price is the one you're willing to pay. What seems fair price to you, may seem high to someone else. It's a buyer market after all. Good luck!
Another thing, be ready to walk if you feel uncomfortable through the sales process. you should always feel that you have control of what you're about to sign or the numbers thrown at you. Also it doesn't hurt to be professional with them, as it may surpise them when you're cool, calm, and collected. Aggressiveness doesn't always work in your favor sometimes. Make them feel unstable of the sale by not showing so much passion and extreme towards the car. (I usually go in thinking, i dont care if i get this car today or not, there another car like this at some other dealer). In the end, only you truly know what a fair price is because that price is the one you're willing to pay. What seems fair price to you, may seem high to someone else. It's a buyer market after all. Good luck!
11-06-2006, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dillsrotary
are you a young guy??? when i bought the car they tried every trick possible, even had me sit and wait while they "talked about it in the back." total BS, but its expected.
Actually, I am an older guy, and the little dance you described is EXACTLY what I hate about buying a car.
I want to buy a car like I buy anything else- a suit, a refrigerator, a big screen TV....whatever.
11-06-2006, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by MP3Guy
I want to buy a car like I buy anything else- a suit, a refrigerator, a big screen TV....whatever.
Also the young guy comment was towards mid twenties to 30's (my age), i wasn't assuming you were a late teen.
11-08-2006, 06:13 AM
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Too many dealership customers are either totally insincere about purchasing, habitual last-minute mind changers, or expert hagglers out for dealership blood. Thus, smoke and mirrors had to be developed.
If however you approach a car purchase like most of your other purchases, you'll find there's no "game" to be played. Know what you want, have the money, go in and pay for it. Mine was a two-day ordeal. I walked in and ordered the colors/options on their computer. They drove it in the next day. I was driving it tomorrow after signing for it. Much like purchasing a couch. The salesman knew I was serious; we got down to the formality paperwork right away.
Imagine what would happen if everyone in the supermarket, furniture store, electronics shop, brought along their dealership mindset and behavior. They think they are wise with purchasing a carton of eggs, came loaded with information on what the grocery "actually paid" for the eggs, and had a hard-line attitude to boot. Now, there are people who actually do that. It's called Walmart, and the reason I can't stand the lines there. "No, ma'am, I'm sorry, I'll have to contact the manager, I'm just a cashier, I can't give you that price".
Know what you want, have the money, pay for it. What's there to talk about?
I do understand. You want to get the lowest price possible and save money on the car purchase. Fine. But you see, there's no reason to be surprised or upset at the chaos that follows now. Negotiating is what it is.
In the tourist marketplaces of many countries, every single inconsequential purchase is a huge play by the script. You, as a shopper, are supposed to bargain the price down, only to walk out on every single merchant that you encounter. Then, the merchant is supposed to run after you, and finally offer you your lowest bid. This is after much feigned anger and desperation. But no one is actually angry. Everything that happened was expected.
I began negotiating a fair price for three onions last week. I'm still starving.
If however you approach a car purchase like most of your other purchases, you'll find there's no "game" to be played. Know what you want, have the money, go in and pay for it. Mine was a two-day ordeal. I walked in and ordered the colors/options on their computer. They drove it in the next day. I was driving it tomorrow after signing for it. Much like purchasing a couch. The salesman knew I was serious; we got down to the formality paperwork right away.
Imagine what would happen if everyone in the supermarket, furniture store, electronics shop, brought along their dealership mindset and behavior. They think they are wise with purchasing a carton of eggs, came loaded with information on what the grocery "actually paid" for the eggs, and had a hard-line attitude to boot. Now, there are people who actually do that. It's called Walmart, and the reason I can't stand the lines there. "No, ma'am, I'm sorry, I'll have to contact the manager, I'm just a cashier, I can't give you that price".
Know what you want, have the money, pay for it. What's there to talk about?
I do understand. You want to get the lowest price possible and save money on the car purchase. Fine. But you see, there's no reason to be surprised or upset at the chaos that follows now. Negotiating is what it is.
In the tourist marketplaces of many countries, every single inconsequential purchase is a huge play by the script. You, as a shopper, are supposed to bargain the price down, only to walk out on every single merchant that you encounter. Then, the merchant is supposed to run after you, and finally offer you your lowest bid. This is after much feigned anger and desperation. But no one is actually angry. Everything that happened was expected.
I began negotiating for an RX-8 last week.
11-08-2006, 06:42 AM
#15
Originally Posted by abbid
Edmunds has the exact dealer invoice. I know, i have a copy of MNAO invoice pricing :]
11-08-2006, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by dillsrotary
are you a young guy??? when i bought the car they tried every trick possible, even had me sit and wait while they "talked about it in the back." total BS, but its expected.
Although, at the end of it, I went with a slightly more expensive car because the dealership was a lot more respectable / nice / experienced and stayed away from the somewhat cheaper car at the sleezy dealership.
11-08-2006, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Mugatu
one thing that i ran into with my wife's Mazda 3 was when I was comparing my Edmunds prices to Mazda's prices, they had one fee that Edmunds didn't...a "dealer fee" that the dealer proceeded to tell me was something that could not be waived because they have to pay it on every car. I remember asking why I had to pay their fees, since they are already making money on the car I am trying to buy. In the end, I wound up getting a fair deal, but to this day I still couldn't get him to come clean what those fees were or if in fact they were bullshit.
11-08-2006, 08:14 PM
#18
I agree, the whole system is complete garbage. No other industry haggles like that. I love the fact how they name the dealerships after themselves like, "Ray Dakota's" or something to that effect. Then you have to check 3 other dealers to make sure your not getting scamed, only to find out they trade vehicles with each other. I knew what I was getting into but I planned on a new 8 for a year. Never again. There are way too many good used cars out there.
11-09-2006, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mugatu
...but to this day I still couldn't get him to come clean what those fees were or if in fact they were bullshit.
That's the "paperwork" fee, a scam that dealerships oozed into the system.
It used to be that you'd buy a car, then take the bill of sale to DMV to register and title the car. At some point dealerships started to take care of the DMV run, just adding the tag and title fee to what you paid them. I remember buying a car in 1974 where they did that. Free service - not bad.
When I bought a car in 1980, it was the same thing but the dealer added a $10 service fee. Annoying that they charged something, but it was optional and pretty much a fair price to avoid going to DMV.
In 1987, a dealer wanted $100 to do the DMV run. I was able to decline that.
In 1993, it was now a paperwork fee of $100 and there was no declining it.
Now it's everywhere, no declining it, $300 this year on my 8, and they claim they have lots of paperwork to do. IMHO it simply replaces the old dealer-added pinstripe and polyglycoat scam to net an extra few hundred on each sale.
Ken
11-13-2006, 07:35 PM
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Got to be a better way
Just have to vent. 
I've finally gotten to the point where I'm ready to buy an RX8 (sold my car). I have a pretty good price from a dealer out of the area but I want to see if I can find something closer.
So I print out what I want from the Mazda inventory site and call the dealer. I ask if they have an internet sales division or just general sales? Reception says "General Sales - transfering".
So a guy comes on and we introduce ourselves. I explain that I'm interested in PUCHASING a 2006 RX8. I proceed to tell him that I researched the Mazda site and see that they have several 2006's left. There is one that I would like to get a qoute on. What is their price?"
Dealer: "Well upfront we'd be looking for the full price. It's up to you to make an offer. When can you come by?"
Me: That's the problem. I can't get by while you are open. I don't have a chance to review stuff until late in the evening. I am calling on my lunch break but can't get away."
D: "Well we like to SELL our cars. It is against policy to talk pricing over the phone."
Me: "So I can't buy a car from you using the convenince and ease of the telephone and internet?"
D: "Yes"
Me: "OK - good bye".
This is how it's been trying to get pricing. The "Get qoute"button results in phone calls of "So when would it be convenient to come in so WE can sell YOU a car?" or the email "We need to match the car to your needs".
Sorry and thanks.
I've finally gotten to the point where I'm ready to buy an RX8 (sold my car). I have a pretty good price from a dealer out of the area but I want to see if I can find something closer.
So I print out what I want from the Mazda inventory site and call the dealer. I ask if they have an internet sales division or just general sales? Reception says "General Sales - transfering".
So a guy comes on and we introduce ourselves. I explain that I'm interested in PUCHASING a 2006 RX8. I proceed to tell him that I researched the Mazda site and see that they have several 2006's left. There is one that I would like to get a qoute on. What is their price?"
Dealer: "Well upfront we'd be looking for the full price. It's up to you to make an offer. When can you come by?"
Me: That's the problem. I can't get by while you are open. I don't have a chance to review stuff until late in the evening. I am calling on my lunch break but can't get away."
D: "Well we like to SELL our cars. It is against policy to talk pricing over the phone."
Me: "So I can't buy a car from you using the convenince and ease of the telephone and internet?"
D: "Yes"
Me: "OK - good bye".
This is how it's been trying to get pricing. The "Get qoute"button results in phone calls of "So when would it be convenient to come in so WE can sell YOU a car?" or the email "We need to match the car to your needs".
Sorry and thanks.
Last edited by jimbo99; 11-13-2006 at 07:54 PM.
11-13-2006, 08:22 PM
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Want to change the system? Don't buy from the predatory dealerships. I turned my nose up at over a dozen dealerships that employed walking, talking slime in a cheap suit. I bought my car and my wife's car from dealerships where I spoke with straight-forward, genuine people who didn't use cheap tactics or switching stories.
It was $5318 off invoice of a 2004, but $9,370 below the dealer's retail selling price. The sales manager down in MD faxed to me said "$4,000 Dealer Cash" and "$534 Dealer Holdback". In person he didn't really explain the additional discounts - maybe he said "trunk money", maybe I just heard that from someone else, maybe the $534 wasn't *all* of the trunk money.
I itemized the invoice for giraffe a while back -
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=15
I wouldn't bother with that unless that dealer is more than 400 miles away.
That's fair warning they want to play games. Good enough reason to hang up on him if you have a good offer in hand or just Strike 1 if you're willing to invest more time.
Strikes 2 and 3. I'll bet they like to *sell* them. 
Yeah, often it does. However, they're there and you're not, right? I claim if you're trying to buy a car from a distance you *find* the car using the internet, but you *negotiate* the deal over the phone (e-bay being one clear exception), then *buy* the car in person. Three distinct steps.
I sympathize jimbo99 - to summarize; it blows. I must have talked to dozens of scammers last fall while trying to buy my RX-8, then repeated the whole process buying a car for my wife this summer.
Here's my RX-8 specific tip - these aren't flying off the lots. They're sitting, they're ageing, dealers are hating it. You have the high ground so stand your ground. Wait for the right car at the right price.
Getting back to the 'games'. It wouldn't hurt to get a notepad and keep a log of your 'leads' so you can keep the myriad of possibilities the internet will show you in some order without losing your mind. I kept my 'rx-8 search' notebook as a souvenier along with the 'magic fax' from the dealership in MD who finally sold me my RX-8. I drove over 250 miles for the purchase and it was worth every inch.
Originally Posted by jimbo99
Is this the infamous "dealer hold-back"? That mysterious amount that the manufacturer's keep until the dealer actually sells the car? Isn't this how the $6,000 - $9,000 discounts were being made on the 'ol 2005's?
I itemized the invoice for giraffe a while back -
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=15
Originally Posted by jimbo99
I've finally gotten to the point where I'm ready to buy an RX8 (sold my car). I have a pretty good price from a dealer out of the area but I want to see if I can find something closer.
Originally Posted by jimbo99
So a guy comes on and we introduce ourselves. I explain that I'm interested in PUCHASING a 2006 RX8. I proceed to tell him that I researched the Mazda site and see that they have several 2006's left. There is one that I would like to get a qoute on. What is their price?"
Dealer: "Well upfront we'd be looking for the full price. It's up to you to make an offer. When can you come by?"
Dealer: "Well upfront we'd be looking for the full price. It's up to you to make an offer. When can you come by?"
Originally Posted by jimbo99
Me: That's the problem. I can't get by while you are open. I don't have a chance to review stuff until late in the evening. I am calling on my lunch break but can't get away."
D: "Well we like to SELL our cars. It is against policy to talk pricing over the phone."
D: "Well we like to SELL our cars. It is against policy to talk pricing over the phone."
Originally Posted by jimbo99
This is how it's been trying to get pricing. The "Get qoute"button results in phone calls of "So when would it be convenient to come in so WE can sell YOU a car?" or the email "We need to match the car to your needs".
I sympathize jimbo99 - to summarize; it blows. I must have talked to dozens of scammers last fall while trying to buy my RX-8, then repeated the whole process buying a car for my wife this summer.
Here's my RX-8 specific tip - these aren't flying off the lots. They're sitting, they're ageing, dealers are hating it. You have the high ground so stand your ground. Wait for the right car at the right price.
Getting back to the 'games'. It wouldn't hurt to get a notepad and keep a log of your 'leads' so you can keep the myriad of possibilities the internet will show you in some order without losing your mind. I kept my 'rx-8 search' notebook as a souvenier along with the 'magic fax' from the dealership in MD who finally sold me my RX-8. I drove over 250 miles for the purchase and it was worth every inch.
11-13-2006, 08:49 PM
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The last 2 cars I bought were all negociated through email first. I would log onto mazdausa.com and search a dealer's inventory. I would then email the manager for the cars invoice price and to make me an offer off of the vin numbers I emailed him. I did it for all of the mazda dealers in my area.
I would state that I have a preapproved letter and I needed a serious offer on this vin etc...
The ones that gave me their msrp as a quote went directly to my trash and I would get really good offers from at least 3 dealers. I would let each one know what the other was offering.
when it was all said and done I'd print out the email and bring it in.
It saves a hell of a lot of time wasted at the dealers and you have their word in writing.
The last 2 cars I bought were done in about 2 hrs.
I would state that I have a preapproved letter and I needed a serious offer on this vin etc...
The ones that gave me their msrp as a quote went directly to my trash and I would get really good offers from at least 3 dealers. I would let each one know what the other was offering.
when it was all said and done I'd print out the email and bring it in.
It saves a hell of a lot of time wasted at the dealers and you have their word in writing.
The last 2 cars I bought were done in about 2 hrs.
11-13-2006, 11:18 PM
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That's what I've been trying to do but the dealers around Sacramento seem to be in the dark ages. I'm not too picky about the car except not wanting a black one due to the hot central valley summers.
I've had another local dealer email back to me "Why do you want to buy? You should just lease one." There are really slim pickings right now in Northern California for 2007's let alone 2006's. A lot of the dealers have 1 or 2. Some have no 2007 RX8's.
I've even heard of a few 2005's left unsold. What are the dealers waiting for - classic car pricing? They only sold 700+ last month nationwide. Following the MNAO inventory site for a couple months shows just how slow the cars are moving.
I've had another local dealer email back to me "Why do you want to buy? You should just lease one." There are really slim pickings right now in Northern California for 2007's let alone 2006's. A lot of the dealers have 1 or 2. Some have no 2007 RX8's.
I've even heard of a few 2005's left unsold. What are the dealers waiting for - classic car pricing? They only sold 700+ last month nationwide. Following the MNAO inventory site for a couple months shows just how slow the cars are moving.
11-14-2006, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jimbo99
Is this the infamous "dealer hold-back"? That mysterious amount that the manufacturer's keep until the dealer actually sells the car? Isn't this how the $6,000 - $9,000 discounts were being made on the 'ol 2005's?
11-14-2006, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by jimbo99
I've even heard of a few 2005's left unsold. What are the dealers waiting for - classic car pricing? They only sold 700+ last month nationwide. Following the MNAO inventory site for a couple months shows just how slow the cars are moving.
If you put a few minutes into phone calls every day you'll make steady progress running down leads. My search took a total of 6 weeks, but I was glad I didn't leap at earlier offers.
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