RotaryRider

DISCLAIMER:
First of all, don't even dare to ask me to search. I searched the website very well and read a lot. Nothing seems to match the symptoms I am seeing on my Baby RX8.

PROBLEM:
I use my 8 as a DD and made it through the harsh Canadian winters. Recently it has started acting weird at start-ups.

SYMPTOMS:
As, I fire-up the engine it will struggle to hold the idle and probably die 6 out of 10 times. If I blip the gas a little bit on startup and to push the RPM above 2K it will return to a normal idle at approx 750 RPM. Sometimes, if I mis-time the gas pedal blip a couple of times, it refuses to start, probably light flooding (my guess).

It Drives fine, never stalls at stoplights, accelerates as normal, the problem is just during the start-ups.

QUESTION:
Has anyone ever had this problem ? If yes, what was your solution ? Is it the dreaded Compression loss ?

MY EFFORTS:
I replaced the spark plugs last weekend, wll do the coils and cables this weekend.

GETTING TOWED STORY:
The other day, I was driving back from work, stopped over at Starbucks, returned, mis-timed the blip and the m*********r refused to start. Tried Mazda deflooding procedure, didn't work. So towed it home that night. Tried firing it up after 2 days , it was roaring in the first go like nothing happened.

SPECS:
RX8 GT, 6 Speed MT, Tien Coilovers, Aftermarket Cat/catback, 100k Kms

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

I would be tempted to check the fuel pressure/fuel pump with that # of KM.

Other thing....did you maybe get a bad tank of gas? Canadian winters and gas in the fuel system don't mix well. Try some methyl hydrate in the gas and it might help

RotaryRider

First of all thankyou so much for the quick reply dude. one particular things that i did before the problem started occurring was that I filled up a tank of 93 Octane (instead of the usual 91 from Shell) from Esso. I read that higher octane fuels have higher flashing points as they burn much slower.
Can this high flash point coupled with a weak ignition system be a problem ? When i removed the Sparkplugs, I noticed that one trailing was covered in carbon deposits while the other one was broken on the outside. Maybe the previous owner did not have proper swivel sockets to remove the spark plugs and broke that particular one in the upper corner.

Also, I took a quick look at the coils the other day. They DO NOT have that 'white spot' on them. Does it mean they are good ? Or can the absence of white spot be misleading ?

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

If you had a broken plug it is likely that coil isn't working correctly any more

The white spot has nothing to do with the coils operational status. It is an old wives tale that doesn't want to die

Often the high octane gas is the oldest in the tanks...and so more likely to have water in it than the more commonly used lower octanes

Remember that the engine idles on the trailing coils.....and runs on the leading coils after that...so bummed trailing ignition will result in crappy idle before any other problems are noticed

RotaryRider

That's what I thought too. I will post the results after replacing coils+wires, refilling 91 Octane and replacing the rear O2 sensor (Coz the car has been randomly throwing P2096 for about 2 months). Not to mention, i want to get that concern out of the way. i understand that P2096 is a tricky one. Cleaning the MAF did not work for me, no noticeable vacuum leaks in the engine bay.

Hmmm... Excessive water in the 93 gas might explain the excessive foam on dipstick this time around.

04Green

iTrader: (1)

If you think you have water in the tank, get some gas treatment that sucks up water in it soonest. In a pinch, throw a pint of rubbing alcohol in.

And, in my opinion, any coil I did not install is "old".

Good luck, let us know what happens with new coils. While you are in there, clean the ESS (spray with brake cleaner, you can see it from the wheel well) while doing the plugs.

RotaryRider

Guys, filled up about half a tank of 91, I felt like the there has been a slight improvement in startup.
1st try: Fired up after about 2 seconds of cranking, drove it around for 30 minutes to speeds of upto 90 km/h to drive the engine temp up.
2nd try: Stopped, and tried firing up right after, it took about 3-4 seconds this time. drove around for another 30 mins. It was fine.

Note: The hesitation at startup was still there until i blip the gas pedal.

I wanna see what happens after all the 93 is drained, of which I have approximately half a tank in there mixed with 91. But then again, it might be just a placebo effect. Getting the ignition done anyway over the weekend.

@dannobre: If my trailing ignition was screwed, wouldn't it idle rough at stop lights and elsewhere ? The idle is bad only at startups, after the blip, its gone.

RotaryRider

Hello again.
The coils and plugs are replaced. On the upside, there has been a definite increase in power and responsiveness. the car sounds a lot smoother.
On the downside, the starting issues still persist. The car drives absolutely fine but struggles to fire up, I can hear the starter working its *** up. The rpms move a little but it doesn't fire up or takes a long time and gas pedal blips.
Got P0171 and P2096 before the repair. Cleared. CEL did not come on till now. Usually it comes on after 2 drive cycles.
Help me out here guys, can't see my baby sick !!!

poacherinthezoo

Check your fuel pressure ASAP.

RotaryRider

Guys, I conected by OBD scanner which shows C (catalytic converter) and (EV) Evaporation system I/M monitors not ready (flashing). The oxygen sensor monitor is ready and the CEL hasn't shown up yet.

The car is refusing to start, it is cranking but not firing up. And after every crank I can hear the sound of a fan coming on which switches off after 2 seconds. Anyone knows what this is ?

BigCajun

iTrader: (1)

Not sure about the fan question.
Mine wouldn't start once because of flooding from a bad coil, but I don't remember if the fans ran after start attempts.
What was your cat code, was it the PO420 below efficiency threshold?
That means a bad cat.
Or is that description one code?
A clogged cat could prevent starting.
Good luck!

RotaryRider

At the moment I dont have any codes. I deleted them when I replaced my coils and cables. I have had about 5-6 drive cycles on the PCM and they haven't shown up again. Usually they returned after 2 drive cycles. They were P2096 and P0171 (both lean codes).

This fan like sound comes from the front end of the car. Somewhere, under the shifter may be. Its like a small Computer fan running and goes off after cranking (the car doesn't start up, of course). I noticed it the last time when I had to get the car towed. I tried Mazda deflooding procedure a number of times and then this sound started after the cranks and I kinda freaked out and towed it home coz I didn't wanna damage the engine.

My CAT and EV system montiors are flashing on the OBD scanner, can that have something to do with it ? The dealer I bought it from said he had to replaced the CAT to get it pass the emission tests. That was 2 months ago.

Also when I turn the key in on position there is barely any sound, all i can hear is stereo moving discs or something. Should I hear fuel pump priming sound when I turn the key to on position ?

BigCajun

iTrader: (1)

I don't hear mine when I turn the key on.
I like to turn my key on while fastening my seat belt to give it a moment to prime.
Not familiar with the codes.
You should research those and find out if they could be causing your issue.
I would start with cleaning the ESS & MAF sensor, then getting the battery checked, be sure terminals are clean and tight.
Check that grounds are not corroded, especially the starter if you drive in winter crud.
Then get the starter checked, then the fuel pump pressure.
Good luck!

Loki

iTrader: (1)

The fan, would that be your cabin ventilation fan? Or the air pump that's used to help emissions at start.

RotaryRider

Guys, as expected, the fan like noise disappeared the next morning. The car currently is non responsive to the cranks. i can hear the starter but nothing else.
This is driving me nuts, the symptoms do not match any of the previous posts on this site.

@Loki: If I had to pick, I would say it was the air pump, definitely not the cabin ventilation system.

I have a video of the failed start-up attempts, how can I post it on here so you guys can take a look ?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I wonder if the 'fan' you are hearing is the fuel pump priming.


Have you confirmed whether or not the engine is actually rotating? As in, while you hold the key to 'start', have someone look at the pulley belts to see if they are also turning.


Upload the video to youtube or photobucket and post the link here.

RotaryRider

Thanks for the suggestion RIWWP. I will check that out once I get home.

Also, Dannobre suggested (through PM) to jump the fuel pump relay by connecting the pins in the fuse box. I wil try that as well this evening.
I was reading on fuel pump relays and how they function and was able to make a little bit of sense out of it.

If the FP relay is faulty, it will struggle to prime the FP and build pressure for the start. Once the engine manages to fire-up and is running, the signal to the FP is driven by the fuel pressure itself as the FP relay goes out of the picture after the cranking is done; so the car keeps running as normal after that. Does that make any sense to you guys ?

Also, things i need to be careful of or any recommendations ? I've never jumped the FP before.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

At the moment it is unclear where the starting process breakdown is.

If the engine isn't turning, it could be a carbon locked engine (really bad), or even a flywheel ring gear separating from the flywheel (annoying but not crazy expensive).

If the engine IS turning, then I would most likely suspect a fuel problem due to the noises you say you hear. If you DO have a fuel pump problem, then I strongly strongly urge you to not drive it until you get the pump replaced if you do manage to find a way to get it started anyway. A failing fuel pump can indeed destroy your engine on a lean spike due to a pressure drop at the wrong moment.

RotaryRider

The pulley belts are spinning.
Here is a video of the startup attempts. The audio quality on the video is pretty good so you should be able to listen to the sounds in the engine bay clearly. At 00:16 secs you can hear the sound of electronics.
The mysterious 'fan like' sound is clearly heard at the end of each crank. Is it the alternator or something else ? I dont remember hearing this sound before this problem started. Lemme know what you guys think.

Any directions or do'd and don'ts for jumping the fuel relay ?

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYye...ature=youtu.be

Also, do you guys mind moving this thread out of newbie to the discussions so that more people can take a look at it.

Loki

iTrader: (1)

I think the fan and whatnot after cranking sounds normal. What's not normal is that high-pitched sound before you start cranking. What the heck is that? Are you putting the key into ON and waiting a bit?

Also you might want to replace that belt at some point soon.

RotaryRider

Yes, I usually put the key in and switch it to ON position (electronics) and give it 5-10 seconds (until the beeps stop) before I crank. Is the sound before cranking not normal ?

I know about the belts, gonna get them replaced straight after I get this resolved.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

The 'fan' noise isn't the fuel pump, definitely engine bay, probably the air pump.

The electronic noise is normal for quite a lot of cars.


Next step, verify fuel and verify spark.

Fuel is easiest with pulling the plugs, spark is easiest with a timing light or spark tester, though you only get spark during cranking on the leading plugs (lower pair)

RotaryRider

What do you mean by pulling the plugs for fuel ? Spark plugs ?
And that sound only started with this problem.

Also, what do you think about the starter, does it look good enuf ?

gwilliams6

Another voice on checking your fuel pump. If your series 1 has 60,000 miles (converted to km 100,000km) or more the pump could certainly be bad. They can go out as early as 50,000 miles or anywhere from 60,000 miles and up. Guys here, advise him on the safest way to check the fuel pressure at the engine on an RX8. I have never had to do that on my RX8, even though over the years I did it many times on my three RX7s.

RotaryRider

If you guys can help me narrow down on the issue, thats good enuf for me. What I don't fancy doin is going to mechanics and paying them 100's of dollars to just find out the problem. Or even worse, pay 100's and get the standard answer in the end "it MIGHT be the compression."

When it runs, i absolutely love this genius of a machine. But when it doesn't it makes my eyes bleed.

Any advice on jumping fuel relay ? I know what it is, but how does it work ? Should I try it ?