Best turbo for DD
08-06-2013, 09:55 AM
#2
FULLY SEMI AUTOMATIC
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please do yourself a favor and read every sticky and all of the major hp threads. when your done in 6 months please come back with a different question before the flame war
08-06-2013, 10:04 AM
#4
FULLY SEMI AUTOMATIC
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op please re read my first post. there is tons of info here that noboby wants to spoon feed you. turbo on a renny is not easy. you should budget 10k to do it right. what year, trans, mileage, mods, ect?
read the major hp section after reading the rx8 stickies
read the major hp section after reading the rx8 stickies
08-06-2013, 10:04 AM
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The Blue Blur
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there's not going to be one answer that's better then another 
what are you looking to do with the turbo? ideal what range hp are you hoping for, for DD I would use around 6-8psi
08-06-2013, 10:14 AM
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wouldn't you want a Daily Driver (DD) to be reliable?? , if the 8 is your only car leave it alone and just maintain it
08-06-2013, 10:29 AM
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08-06-2013, 10:36 AM
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zkert,
Here is the spoon-fed answer, and I'm only doing this because it's the new member section and without a clear answer for you members are going to start crossing the line and I don't want to have to start handing out penalties to them.
The RX-8's engine is inherently fragile. People fight to get naturally aspirated engines to last 60,000, 70,000, 100,000 miles. Some only last 10,000 to 30,000 miles.
Adding a turbocharger to this engine makes it insanely unreliable. Even if you spend the $10,000 to $15,000 for a brand new engine rebuild, turbo kit, all the custom modifications of that turbo kit, and engine tuning... you will be incredibly lucky to get more than 20,000 to 30,000 miles out of the engine. That's if everything is PERFECT. If you make even the slightest tiny mistake, boom, your engine is gone. The mistake could be anything from a flaw in the engine, to a flaw in the turbo to a flaw in the tune, to trying to cheap out on any one component, to not torquing a bolt right, etc... You will be paying MORE than the value of the car and you have to have every single item dead on perfect the FIRST time, or your motor goes boom.
So the answer is, NO turbo is good for DD. Turbocharging is the WORST thing you can do to a daily. If you have a turbocharged 8, you better have another car to DD.
If you want to actually discuss which turbo's fit the engine well, that is a different story. Be prepared to discuss compressor maps, flow rates, VE tables, MAF scaling, etc... to have even a hint of understanding what someone is telling you.
Here are some exerpts from my newbie threads that people keep trying to point you to:
================================================== ==============================================
from https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...4/#post3663969
Power Modifications:
Newbie's Guide to Modding the RX-8: https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...rx-8-a-233937/ (I wrote that one too!)
2004-2008 Power Modifications subforum: Series I Aftermarket Performance Modifications - RX8Club.com
2009+ Power Modifications subforum: Series II Aftermarket Performance Modifications - RX8Club.com
From the factory, the 8 is VERY well tuned (mechanically). There are only 2 things you can do for easy power:
- Custom tune to remove some of the "safe" parts of the tune (AccessPORT is the historical standard, however MazdaEdit and one other is gaining momentum. The AccessPORT can't tune 2009+, the other two can)
- Removing the naturally restrictive catalytic converter.
Doing the rest of the common upgrades piston cars get (intake, exhaust, pulleys, etc...) nets you MAYBE 5hp. MAYBE. Depending on the brand, alot of them are inferior to the OEM stock system, and plenty cause you to lose power.
If you want power, you have to go forced induction, turbo or supercharger. And you need a starting amount of about $8,000 to $10,000 for a complete set up. If you find what you think is a "deal", please don't get fooled. If you spent $1,500 on your turbo system, you will still spend $8,000 to $10,000 in modifications, errors, swapping parts, getting stuff to finally work right, and probably an engine replacement along the way. If you dont have an AccessPORT, you have very little chance in making it work.
If you don't go that route, then the most you can expect is about 200 whp without a custom engine rebuild, which can run you $5,000+ once you factor in the labor of pulling and reinstalling the engine and the shipping. The advancements in porting work have been slow coming, but they are still moving the needle upwards.
BDC has taken the new top N/A dyno (non-race team funded) posted on 5/16/2011 here: BDC Street port vs. stock port dyno comparison - RX8Club.com 223whp:
Please note that "heavy" has not been defined as of this edit. The gains are from more than 1 source. Likely full 3 inch headers to tips on the exhaust, entirely unknown what the intake is. The porting work above was mostly on the intake ports rather than the exhaust ports. There was also likely significant improvement in the seal tolerances over factory specs.
Eric Meyer posted his 233hp dyno sheet here: 233 rwhp dyno sheet - RX8Club.com
But keep in mind that it's likely his team invested $100,000+ (just a guess) into the R+D of the engine and drivetrain to get it there (including special treatments of the transmission and diff to reduce drivetrain loss)
Don't get fooled by any "chips", ebay or otherwise. There is no "chip" for the RX-8 that will do anything beneficial. The best you can hope for is nothing at all...a costly metallic sticker on your ECU. You can easily fry your ECU with one though, and that is $1,600+. The only flawless method of improving the ECU is through an AccessPORT. Hymee's ProTuner software and brick is also capable, but there are still bugs at the time of this post, hard to come by, and it is possible to wipe your ECU accidently. The piggybacks such as Interceptor-X and GReddy's E-Manager are terrible for the RX-8. You can get it to run, kinda. But you won't be making more power than stock.
If you think you want to go turbocharging or supercharging your engine, start here: Series I Major Horsepower Upgrades - RX8Club.com and keep reading thread after thread. Get to know the issues people have had, read their responses, their solutions, their frustrations.
What about other engines?
Don't even think about posting a question about an engine swap. Please. Do yourself a favor and just avoid clicking the "new thread" button. 20B (3 rotor engines) have been done, but they cost $20,000+ just for the swap itself. 4-rotor swaps have been completed I think twice. They run $100,000+. There have been a few swaps with the older 13Bs from RX-7s. They are cheaper, but still alot of work.
There have been a few other successful swaps, including a couple of LSx engines and at least one 2jz engine. More have been started than have been completed, as they usually run out of money, out of patience, or out of desire. Does it mean these other swaps can't be done? Not at all. It just means that you will have all of the pain, frustration, lack of answers, and lack of support.. And if successful, you would have the glory from a few, the hatred of some, and the lack of notice or caring from the rest.
================================================== ==============================================
https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...7/#post4275583
Guideline: The relative "high power" limitations to the Renesis are largely due to the exhaust ports. They can not be increased in size by much since they are run through the side plates, between the oil and coolant passages, and the studs, etc... Prior RX-7s had the entire end of the rotor housing to work with for exhaust dumping. Adding exhaust ports to the housing is viable, though imperfect and makes the engine no longer a Renesis, rendering this point moot. Any high power goals will have to take this fact into account with some serious consideration. There are some methods of increased exhaust porting, though none known have performed flawlessly, usually introducing different issues that have to be addressed. There are also other points that produce capping effects on power, but the exhaust port size is the the one that people run into first and is the hardest to get around.
Guideline: The more power you are making, the more heat you are pushing through the exhaust ports. Consistently high EGTs (exhaust gas temperature) have been shown to cause problems with the side seals and side seal springs. There are resolutions to this, if you are having the engine rebuilt. High power cars with a reliable and stable tune and fueling will likely have their side seals fail before the apex seals, however when a side seal fails, it's because of the spring deforming, pushing the seal out until it clips the exhaust port, shattering it and the seal fragments then destroy the apex seals, so most people might assume apex seal failure when it's actually the side seals that went first. High power with an unstable tune or fueling moves the likely failure point to a detonation that destroys the apex seals first. As far as the engine is concerned, the results are the same between these.
================================================== ==============================================
from https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...7/#post4275584
Turbocharging
(will void engine and drivetrain warranties, and likely bumper to bumper as well)
There are no complete "kits" for turbocharging. Some kits get closer than others, but all require modifications. The most popular is variations on the GReddy kit using a 3071R turbine. These kits are for sale regularly and often cheaply. Even if the kit is cheap, you should expect to have a cash pool on hand of $10,000 before you start buying parts, and if you can get a 2nd engine as well, it's recommended, since you will probably be using it.
This thread is mandatory reading: Power Adders (FI) For Dummies (Turbo, Supercharger, Nitrous)
Here is the spoon-fed answer, and I'm only doing this because it's the new member section and without a clear answer for you members are going to start crossing the line and I don't want to have to start handing out penalties to them.
The RX-8's engine is inherently fragile. People fight to get naturally aspirated engines to last 60,000, 70,000, 100,000 miles. Some only last 10,000 to 30,000 miles.
Adding a turbocharger to this engine makes it insanely unreliable. Even if you spend the $10,000 to $15,000 for a brand new engine rebuild, turbo kit, all the custom modifications of that turbo kit, and engine tuning... you will be incredibly lucky to get more than 20,000 to 30,000 miles out of the engine. That's if everything is PERFECT. If you make even the slightest tiny mistake, boom, your engine is gone. The mistake could be anything from a flaw in the engine, to a flaw in the turbo to a flaw in the tune, to trying to cheap out on any one component, to not torquing a bolt right, etc... You will be paying MORE than the value of the car and you have to have every single item dead on perfect the FIRST time, or your motor goes boom.
So the answer is, NO turbo is good for DD. Turbocharging is the WORST thing you can do to a daily. If you have a turbocharged 8, you better have another car to DD.
If you want to actually discuss which turbo's fit the engine well, that is a different story. Be prepared to discuss compressor maps, flow rates, VE tables, MAF scaling, etc... to have even a hint of understanding what someone is telling you.
Here are some exerpts from my newbie threads that people keep trying to point you to:
================================================== ==============================================
from https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...4/#post3663969
Power Modifications:
Newbie's Guide to Modding the RX-8: https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...rx-8-a-233937/ (I wrote that one too!)
2004-2008 Power Modifications subforum: Series I Aftermarket Performance Modifications - RX8Club.com
2009+ Power Modifications subforum: Series II Aftermarket Performance Modifications - RX8Club.com
From the factory, the 8 is VERY well tuned (mechanically). There are only 2 things you can do for easy power:
- Custom tune to remove some of the "safe" parts of the tune (AccessPORT is the historical standard, however MazdaEdit and one other is gaining momentum. The AccessPORT can't tune 2009+, the other two can)
- Removing the naturally restrictive catalytic converter.
Doing the rest of the common upgrades piston cars get (intake, exhaust, pulleys, etc...) nets you MAYBE 5hp. MAYBE. Depending on the brand, alot of them are inferior to the OEM stock system, and plenty cause you to lose power.
If you want power, you have to go forced induction, turbo or supercharger. And you need a starting amount of about $8,000 to $10,000 for a complete set up. If you find what you think is a "deal", please don't get fooled. If you spent $1,500 on your turbo system, you will still spend $8,000 to $10,000 in modifications, errors, swapping parts, getting stuff to finally work right, and probably an engine replacement along the way. If you dont have an AccessPORT, you have very little chance in making it work.
If you don't go that route, then the most you can expect is about 200 whp without a custom engine rebuild, which can run you $5,000+ once you factor in the labor of pulling and reinstalling the engine and the shipping. The advancements in porting work have been slow coming, but they are still moving the needle upwards.
BDC has taken the new top N/A dyno (non-race team funded) posted on 5/16/2011 here: BDC Street port vs. stock port dyno comparison - RX8Club.com 223whp:
The first car was done in 2007 and was stock engine (fresh), stock ECU, with an AEM intake setup, catalytic convertor deletion, and all else stock. Basically a base mod car plopped on the dyno.
The second car, done more recently, is my porting job and heavy intake/exhaust mods.
The second car, done more recently, is my porting job and heavy intake/exhaust mods.
Eric Meyer posted his 233hp dyno sheet here: 233 rwhp dyno sheet - RX8Club.com
But keep in mind that it's likely his team invested $100,000+ (just a guess) into the R+D of the engine and drivetrain to get it there (including special treatments of the transmission and diff to reduce drivetrain loss)
Don't get fooled by any "chips", ebay or otherwise. There is no "chip" for the RX-8 that will do anything beneficial. The best you can hope for is nothing at all...a costly metallic sticker on your ECU. You can easily fry your ECU with one though, and that is $1,600+. The only flawless method of improving the ECU is through an AccessPORT. Hymee's ProTuner software and brick is also capable, but there are still bugs at the time of this post, hard to come by, and it is possible to wipe your ECU accidently. The piggybacks such as Interceptor-X and GReddy's E-Manager are terrible for the RX-8. You can get it to run, kinda. But you won't be making more power than stock.
If you think you want to go turbocharging or supercharging your engine, start here: Series I Major Horsepower Upgrades - RX8Club.com and keep reading thread after thread. Get to know the issues people have had, read their responses, their solutions, their frustrations.
What about other engines?
Don't even think about posting a question about an engine swap. Please. Do yourself a favor and just avoid clicking the "new thread" button. 20B (3 rotor engines) have been done, but they cost $20,000+ just for the swap itself. 4-rotor swaps have been completed I think twice. They run $100,000+. There have been a few swaps with the older 13Bs from RX-7s. They are cheaper, but still alot of work.There have been a few other successful swaps, including a couple of LSx engines and at least one 2jz engine. More have been started than have been completed, as they usually run out of money, out of patience, or out of desire. Does it mean these other swaps can't be done? Not at all. It just means that you will have all of the pain, frustration, lack of answers, and lack of support.. And if successful, you would have the glory from a few, the hatred of some, and the lack of notice or caring from the rest.
================================================== ==============================================
https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...7/#post4275583
Guideline: The relative "high power" limitations to the Renesis are largely due to the exhaust ports. They can not be increased in size by much since they are run through the side plates, between the oil and coolant passages, and the studs, etc... Prior RX-7s had the entire end of the rotor housing to work with for exhaust dumping. Adding exhaust ports to the housing is viable, though imperfect and makes the engine no longer a Renesis, rendering this point moot. Any high power goals will have to take this fact into account with some serious consideration. There are some methods of increased exhaust porting, though none known have performed flawlessly, usually introducing different issues that have to be addressed. There are also other points that produce capping effects on power, but the exhaust port size is the the one that people run into first and is the hardest to get around.
Guideline: The more power you are making, the more heat you are pushing through the exhaust ports. Consistently high EGTs (exhaust gas temperature) have been shown to cause problems with the side seals and side seal springs. There are resolutions to this, if you are having the engine rebuilt. High power cars with a reliable and stable tune and fueling will likely have their side seals fail before the apex seals, however when a side seal fails, it's because of the spring deforming, pushing the seal out until it clips the exhaust port, shattering it and the seal fragments then destroy the apex seals, so most people might assume apex seal failure when it's actually the side seals that went first. High power with an unstable tune or fueling moves the likely failure point to a detonation that destroys the apex seals first. As far as the engine is concerned, the results are the same between these.
================================================== ==============================================
from https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...7/#post4275584
Turbocharging
(will void engine and drivetrain warranties, and likely bumper to bumper as well)
There are no complete "kits" for turbocharging. Some kits get closer than others, but all require modifications. The most popular is variations on the GReddy kit using a 3071R turbine. These kits are for sale regularly and often cheaply. Even if the kit is cheap, you should expect to have a cash pool on hand of $10,000 before you start buying parts, and if you can get a 2nd engine as well, it's recommended, since you will probably be using it.
This thread is mandatory reading: Power Adders (FI) For Dummies (Turbo, Supercharger, Nitrous)
Last edited by RIWWP; 08-06-2013 at 10:40 AM.
08-06-2013, 10:39 AM
#15
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Note to everyone else:
I deleted some posts toward the beginning of the thread. Keep it civil and on-topic or refrain from posting
No bumping, thread crapping, posting "in before the lock" pics or posts with similar intent.
I deleted some posts toward the beginning of the thread. Keep it civil and on-topic or refrain from posting
No bumping, thread crapping, posting "in before the lock" pics or posts with similar intent.
08-06-2013, 10:50 AM
#17
Rotary Evolution
the better question is: which earlier model RX7 engine is the best and most reliable to turbo your 8. the problem isn't the car it is the combination of the extreme compression ratio along with the side port exhaust, which make those 2 words(reliability and turbo) in the same sentence move to almost completely separate sides of the page.
most will say the 13B-REW, which is one of the best answers. a PP exhaust engine with good peak compression ratio suitable for a turbo with a stout framed block.
most will say the 13B-REW, which is one of the best answers. a PP exhaust engine with good peak compression ratio suitable for a turbo with a stout framed block.
Last edited by Karack; 08-06-2013 at 10:54 AM.
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