Blackout04RX

I can't understand how some car makers are just ignoring their competition, and putting out car lines that just don't offer what they should. Case and point. Ford, GM, and Chrysler all took interest in what they were each producing, and came out with cars to rival their competition. The battle of muscle cars has made headlines of countless magazines, and lead to increased sales of those cars, simply because they filled a precise need.

Now look at the Japanese car makers. While more efficient, I can't help but notice that noone wants to directly compete with each other. You have the 370Z, and the RX-8, which in price and drivetrain layout are similar, but can't REALLY be compared. Hp, weight, number of seats, are all different. And every time you compare them, that is all you hear about. "Well the RX-8 is more daily driver friendly" "The RX-8 is lighter, with better suspension" It seems to me, that Mazda didn't want to try and REALLY compete with Nissan in the sports car realm, and purposely let the car's power dwindle, to give it something to excuse itself.

But it doesn't stop there. Hyundai just released probably the smartest business plan I have yet seen since the mid 80's. The Genesis, is probably the smartest thing that company could have done. The coupe was designed from the very start, to be a lightweight, dutifully powerful car, with loads of headroom designed into the car, that would allow huge aftermarket support, which always helps boost sales, and keeps resale values high, for leased vehicles. But have any of the companies done anything to combat this? Nissan has indefinately postponed development on the new Silvia they were working on, which would be the most likely candidate in the world to go toe to toe there. Toyota is focused squarely on hybrid technology, and apparently super cars given the new LF-A from Lexus, and a new Supra concept out. Not a word from them about an every mans kind of sporty car. Mazda has the Miata, but that has always and always will be too lowly powered to compete there. The Rotary perfomance (pardon, but I hold no loyalties to any brand) has slacked since Ford stopped letting Mazda put turbo's on them. Anyone with common sense can tell you that turbo technology has made them far more reliable, and avoiding them is inexcusable at this point. The car that is better suited for boost then any other engine on the market, is the one engine not being done so from the factory. REDICULOUS. Honda has also vacated the market of low cost, RWD cars, and puts its entire faith on the back of the Civic, which becomes increasingly expensive and tiresome to modify compared to its predicessors.
In an age where people who worshipped the Fast and Furious franchise, and started seeing Drifting come to American shores, people who are reaching or are already at an age where they are looking to buy a 25k-30k car with good out of the box performance, and has the capability to modify and upgrade later... this is an insane oversight. I am speaking purely from a business perspective, and I favor no car company over an other, but in the very least, these companies should pay attention to the fact that Hyundai used to be a car you bought when you couldn't even afford a Honda, something that only young girls who just got their license drove because it was cheap to fix. Today, they compete with Cadillac, and Acura in the luxury markets, and with the Genesis coupe, is taking all comers in the sports car world. Who can compete? Well power wise, the 370Z, but the price for the Hyundai is lower. The RX-8 is even still over priced, and gets beat in power, and if you order the trak pack on the Hyundai, I hear it even beats the 8 in handling. Honda doesn't have a RWD car to compete directly, I would guess you could put a Civic Si, but that would be a stretch. The WRX, and Lancer Rally are the closest thing, but are AWD.
Am I the only one seeing these holes?

kvndoom

Performance cars are a niche. You can look at the sales numbers, and even in "good months" Z's or RX8's are just selling in the hundreds. Sports cars are a risk, and there's no guarantee that the ROI will be quick or even come at all, for the millions it takes to develop a new car and then bring it to market. Look at how many automakers were promising diesels in 2008, then every ******* one got shelved when the recession hit. We would have seen diesel Acura's and domestic small trucks next year, but now it may never happen. That would have been what this country finally needed to see that hybrids are a joke and you can actually have your cake (mileage) and eat it too (torque) with a diesel. But now I doubt anything will change on these shores. Nobody wants to take a chance anymore, which is why I admire what Hyundai has done, and I hope they succeed.

The FT86 platform will be competing with the Genesis on price and performance. I would love to see the resurrection of low-price sports cars. American cars are just going to be straight-line high-horsepower machines, because Americans want to see big HP numbers and low 0-60 times. The nuances of driving are lost on buyers of those cars. That's why they're called "muscle cars" and not "sports cars." If the Toyota/Subaru project is received well, don't be surprised if Honda starts putting something together very quickly.

Mazda knows the limitations of its engine better than anyone else. They haven't upped the power on the Renesis because they know they can't do it reliably. That engine is at its NA limits fresh off the lot, which is why there are so few power gain mods for it. The rotary will never win the numerical horsepower wars, and numbers on paper are a big selling point in this segment, whether they tell the whole story or not.

zoom44

i have what most would consider a goodly amount of common sense and i can tell you that turbos did NOT make the rotary more reliable.

tubingchamp

iTrader: (3)

Kind of the opposite... Turbos force the engine to run beyond its normal function... Hence "Forced Induction".

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

speaking of Hyundai Genesis, did you know that Hyundai does NOT separate the sales data between the the sedan and the coupe, even though they're completely different vehicles with different customer bases? obfuscating actual sales data FTL.

Alexb

iTrader: (1)

Well. Interestingly enough I've seen about the same number of coupes and sedans in the genesis around here. They aren't even that rare. My father was really looking into them, but i doubt he'll pull the trigger.

kvndoom

Add telescoping steering and the Genny will be a serious contender for my next ride.

What's scary is that I'm actually thinking about getting a Mustang a few years from now.

05rx8mazda

iTrader: (4)

I dnt know about you guys. but i dont think i would like mazda to give us a 180-195 Hp renesis and then let us upgrade and make another 15-20 hp and make us feel like it responded well to mods.. no id rather buy the car and it be efficient right out of the box. modifying is fun though.

Chad D.

iTrader: (19)

Every company is reaching right now.
Personaly I don't see Chrysler doing anything but selling minivans and trucks. GM is doomed. Ford has been impressive. Hyundai is very competitive. Kia is the "generic" brand. Nissan is stylish. Jaguar is Indian owned. Chrysler Italian. Volvo to China?
With such slow car sales throughout the past years there is going to be a boom, and the winner will own marketshare.

I think for the price we pay for cars they are completely ****. Cars are starting to regress in innovation, like real innovation, not a ps2 in the back and a cooler in the seat.

HiFlite999

iTrader: (2)

Have you driven and inspected a Genesis Coupe? Plenty of (rough) power, but a brutal ride and low-frequency booming at highway speed. Still HUyandi is getting results. Overall, I'd say modern cars are absolutely amazing compared to what I grew up with and are relatively speaking cheap. The are vastly safer, fuel efficient, faster, and more reliable. The cars of my youth really needed a tuneup every 3k miles and demanded one by 5k miles. Tires sucked when new and were worn out at 15k miles. For an engine to last 100k miles without extraordinary upkeep was unusual. Count your blessings kid!

getdamafiaonyou

I completly agree with you, and the way things are looking, Ford is going to own the market, toyota sales (at least around here) have gone down so much simply because they dont offer what people want, for still does, and have started putting some really amazing things in their cars, mazda will probably always stay where they are, around the middle. GM is just. dead. because even if they do start making cars that dont fall apart in the parking lot, no one will buy them, for fear that the company will go under. Honda seems to be messing up. when was the last time they came out with something new? the civic? which started it's life being a very very cheap and reliable car, is now more expensive than many others. and all honda's are boring and plain. But as far as sports cars, I think the z is the one that will prevail the test of time. It already has, as have the rx's. I just hope that they continue with the rotary engine and they bring it back to being a direct competitor, but with the economy the way it is, no car makers really have the extra change sitting around to put the R&D required into making a car that might not turn a profit. As for me, my next car will be either the 370, or the new toyota.

Symbioticgenius

Note: Most of what I state here will be directed at the OP.

There was a Muscle car gap, that needed to be filled, and now it is. For quite some time, it was only the Stang, now there is more comp. Definitely agree with you there.

However... If you've ever seen the early 350 commercials, Nissan is targeting Porsche. Even that GTR was lapping with Porsche' at The Ring.
The RX8 has to restrict the exhaust a lot more than a 350 or other piston engined sports cars. So the power is lowered, and the car is detuned. Ever notice how the car was advertised at 250HP and makes about 230? yet with a tune and a midpipe you get that 20 back, that's what last minute changes do for ya.

Hyundai Genesis... Lightweight? Dutifully Powerful? Please, its a rebadged G35 at best. It handles nowhere near as well as the 8 or the Z or the G35.
Hell, its not even faster than the 8
http://www.0-60times.com/mazda.asp RX8 0-60: 5.8
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/10/15/h...mance-numbers/ Genny Coupe V6 0-60: 5.9
so sad...
oh and for the record, Genny owners are having trouble getting the 4 cyl past 350 wheel... boy if that don't sound familiar... lol.
As far as competition goes, that second link states that Hyundai targeted the G37 as its competition. Sounds more like luxury than sport to me.

I'm definitely with you on the scrapping of the S16 Nissan. I was looking forward to that, but I think the main reason its not out is because Nissan doesn't want to cut into 350\370 sales. Not to mention building a new 4 Cyl is just not in their business plan. Milk the hell out of that VQ, its really the way to go.

Miata regularly spanks cars with double its power on road courses, and IMHO is the sole reason Mazda still exists, now that the doublemint Solstice twins are going defunct, the Miata can get their market share back.

Toyota and Subaru are working on a little thing called the FT-86. Looks promising, if it makes it, and personally, I'm hoping Subaru makes a 4WD version.

I'm not exactly sure what you meant by Turbo's adding to Rotary Reliability, but I will state that having a turbo allowed for a lower redline, and maybe less carbon buildup (not sure), and a lowered redline does cause less stress on the drivetrain. As far as I'm concerned though the only weakpoint in the 8 is the Trans, fixed in 09. Thanks Mazda!

Honda is resting their backs on the Civic, but this, like a lot of other companies recent actions, is based on our economy. Only company right now that can afford to gamble on something new would be Toyota, Honda, or Nissan. Nissan already has, and its paying dividends, not so much the new Z and GTR are selling, but Nissans recognition is getting everything else to sell faster. Toyota is already selling, and will continue to do so. You also have to remember, Toyota are good bedfellows with Lotus, so they don't need, nor want to make another 40k-80k sports car, that would cut into Lotus sales, They definitely don't want to do the Mr.2 again due to the similarity there. Honda has to get their head out of their backside, I definitely agree on that.

Hyundai definitely stepped their game up as of late, but you gotta remember, everybody was on the bottom at some point. Soon enough Kia will do something, Geo and Daewoo will make a comeback, meh, who knows, but I know the Genesis Coupe isn't gonna be real competition for cars like the Z, 8, Miata, or most pure sports cars. Its more like a Lexus, Infinity, Mercedes (low end) kind of thing.

Mitsu is making a comeback, and its name is Lancer. I see these things everywhere now, and a few EvoX', STI's... not so much, but they exist.

Its funny, the main reason my post is so long is cause I was gonna make a similar thread, as far as I see right now, the main holes are in the 15k-20k RWD range, and the 20k-40k AWD Coupe (TWO SEATER) range.

With all that said, I have to add this: I don't want fast RWD cars being available to every teen with a part time. The roads are dangerous enough without any F&F posers drifting all over the place.

Chad D.

iTrader: (19)

They have refined ideas..ie. crank start=elecric starter
I would think the last real good innovations were fly by wire, independant suspension, and the wankel engine. All 50+yrs old.


fiat+chrysler=crap

Blackout04RX

you misunderstood what i meant. What I was saying was that the whole reason that turbos were cut out of the design was reliability. RX-7's burnt up turbos alot. With modern advances in turbo technology, this wouldn't still be the case. Look at what subaru, toyota and BMW have all done with turbos. They all have reliable turbo setups that work reliably. (I am also aware that a turbo doesn't increase reliability. I wouldn't work on my own car if I was that thick. thnx )

Blackout04RX

And what everyone seems to say is that because the economy is bad right now, everyone got scared and tucked tail. But if any of you are into business, or take a business course in college, the first thing you learn is that when times are hard, and sales are down, being safe is a bad idea. That was what got all the domestic companies in trouble. Times got bad, and they didnt innovate to match them.

I am not saying that the Genesis is a perfect car, none are. But overall, I have to respect the directors of the company for that. They completely revamped public image with the Coupe, they are attracting alot of young buyers, they are being aggressive and it is paying off. I can appreciate some car companies not wanting to be aggressive, but thats exactly what is needed. GM is being smart right now. They are trimming the fat from their line, cutting out the companies that compete with other brands they own (i.e. Saturn taking sales from Chevy, or Hummer... that was just a bad investment period.). I don't think they are doomed, if they keep up like they are, they stand a good chance. The new Camaro isn't built purely for straight line, which is what I like about it. The challenger was, and it shows. But the skidpad, and braking numbers are quite impressive.

Any good company aims to compete with the car in the next performance bracket, so that it can beat the ones it gets matched with in tests. As someone said, Nissan is great with this. They aimed at competing with a 911 around tracks, so that when they get put against cars priced similarly, they win. That's just smart business. The GTR is just brilliance on four wheels. On paper it is too heavy, and underpowered to compete with the cars it does, and yet it is insanity around tracks, and if you ever watch Jeremy Clarkson's test drive, its just fantastic.

My thing with the sports cars, is that they are never something meant to sell big numbers, that is true. But it is sports cars that sell the sedans and grocery getters. Sports car's and exotics are meant to prove that the company makes great cars, better then the competition. The car that wins at the races on sunday, sells more cars in the dealerships on monday. That is proven timeless. It is the foundation behind companies like Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche. Ever ask yourself why those companies put numbers on their models instead of names? Because you buy the 3 series, because you know that the same company that made you 3 series made that Hot little M5 that is scary fast, and looks good. Sports car's bring in the clients that buy the other cars.
What I don't understand is that the RX-8 has been out since 2003. In all that time, EVERY single test came back saying that the car is underpowered, by a noticable difference. And yet the only development out there is the 16x, which still doesn't break the 300hp club, and seems more on fuel effiency then power. While the fuel economy does need improvement, I personally think that they need to focus less on selling to middle aged men who want a sports car their wife won't wine about, and focus on winning tests around the track, coming in second to the 370Z, no matter how nice the suspension, is going to sell less cars then say... beating it.

Chad D.

iTrader: (19)

/\+1

Red Rex

iTrader: (1)

Idea's are watered down through a corporation. You may start with an idea of a 300 horsepower car that weighs 3300 lbs and has a really cool body and interior design. But when you run it through people at a car company things start to change.

Is this body design safe?
Can we make a practical engine that can make this power?
Does this car represent what the company stands for?

Thats when the whole design of the car gets altered. Your design might have been perfect but then the company has to add their own flare so people recognize it both inside and out. Your car might have had a 300 bhp engine but after all the emission factors are set in turns out the company could only muster about 240. Your car may have only weighed 3300 lbs but after all the safety requirements have been installed it actually weighs more like 3600 lbs.

Eventually ideas are ruined or completely lost because somebody was just following their boss's boss's orders. I hate all this government protocol about safety and emission standards and the whole MPG crisis. Damn I wish I grew up in the 60's

Chad D.

iTrader: (19)

Like how the Volt started as a 2 seater electric only sporty looking machine and it ended up being a boring looking electric malibu.

kersh4w

iTrader: (3)

i guess you forgot about the toyoburu



i'd say its a direct competitor to the 2.0lt version of the coupe.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

It's spelled "ridiculous" Rantboi ....

Red Rex

iTrader: (1)

I hate that concept. Every single car company has that concept. Apparently its the new GT-R, the new Lexus $400,000 super-car, the Hyundai Genesis, AND Toyota's new sports car. Identity crisis?

Chad D.

iTrader: (19)

I hear ya, take a Z idea, smack your own brand on it and voila! another sports car.