ASH8

VAG board suspends Audi development chief, VW r&d boss and Porsche development head.

ASH8

Mazda Motor Corp, the top seller of diesel cars in Japan, said on Tuesday its vehicles do not feature defeat devices - software Volkswagen AG said it used to skirt U.S. emissions tests - and that they complied with regulations in all its markets.

Mazda says vehicles comply with regulations after Japan orders diesel probe | Reuters

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

It's a mess.

Just save Porsche please.

ASH8

Environmental Protection Agency and Californian Air Resources Board are scrutinising the actions of Volkswagen and may impose hefty fines of about $40K per offending vehicle.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Porsche is unaffected by VW's emissions-cheating scandal - Business Insider

"Unaffected" in that their diesel doesn't have the defeat. But their parent company is going to collapse so it's going to affect them. I wonder about the impact on Porsche Motorsports. LeMans, GT3 Cup, etc... could be huge impact there on the trickle down. That would be really unfortunate.

ASH8

Porsche buys the sole 1.5% of Suzuki's shareholding of VW.

Thanks that the Suzuki/VW fight is finally over for the Suzuki family, what a mess that was with VW reneging on virtually all of their original agreements due to mismanagement and bad feelings between the two car companies.

ASH8

Aussie write up hear on the VW Diesel situation...

Volkswagen - Opinion: Cheats never prosper | GoAuto

What is so wrong about this scandal is there are a lot of livelihoods and a lot of investments by dealers and others who are dependent on the Volkswagen Group worldwide. Through no fault of their own, these livelihoods and investments have been put under a cloud corporate recklessness.

And for Toyota and GM, yes, there is a Santa Claus.

ASH8

When you read all the extra cost and ramifications to VW/Audi Dealers in US, Europe, UK, Oceania, everywhere this is indeed a huge bloody mess for VAG.

I will go as far to say this could bring VW (VAG) to it's knees, the German Government after continuing to the bail out of Greece will be looking to their taxpayers for more cash to bail out VAG.

VW's stupidity really is breathtaking.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yeah. There is going to be a collosal impact to the structure of the company. Anything from selling off brands to survive to complete dissolution to the company.

There have been some equally huge problems in other companies before, but a core distinction here is that VW can't just pay the fines and run and hide like many others before them.

Loki

iTrader: (1)

Keep in mind that the German govt is heavily invested in VAG. I don't think they will let them dissolve any more than US could let GM and Ford die.

IMO, VW will survive this and come out stronger. Possibly with fewer brands (do you really need Skoda/SEAT/VW/Audi to make the same car?). Possibly in platform sharing partnerships. Possibly not in the US (which is not their main market anyway).

But they will come back from this.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

I feel bad for the dealerships, they are screwed.

ASH8

In compliance with the law, Mazda works hard to ensure that every gasoline and diesel engine it makes fully complies with the regulations of the countries in which they are sold. Mazda never uses illegal software or defeat devices. Mazda's customers may rest assured that their vehicles are fully compliant with all regulations.

Now and into the future, Mazda remains committed to improving fuel efficiency and reducing CO2, as well as making exhaust emissions as clean as possible, while continuing to offer driving pleasure. Mazda will continue developing new technologies and working towards achieving “ideal combustion” in the internal combustion engine.

A number of countries around the world are investigating new homologation testing methods based on real driving conditions, such as Worldwide harmonized Light-duty Test Cycles and Real Driving Emissions. Mazda supports these initiatives and will cooperate with any requests from authorities.

###

* Note regarding the term “defeat device”

This illegal software program detects that the vehicle is being tested and controls exhaust emissions in order to meet regulations. However, the control program changes and the exhaust emission reduction effect is reduced during normal driving.

MattMPS

Mazda 2.2 diesel is the only one Euro-6 compliant diesel only using EGR, without SCR or LNT.

firsts real world tests (now in Eu there are tons of papers about this topic) confirm the quality of engineering of Mazda.


http://theicct.org/sites/default/fil...2009152015.pdf

ASH8

Yep Matt.
100% Spot on.

Many in the US still do not understand that Mazda's all new Skyactiv Diesel engines are not required to use SCR/Urea treatment like their old MZD-CD did.

These new SA-D engines were engineered by Mazda to comply with ALL future EPA Regulations worldwide up to and until 2020.
Euro 6 NOx is the tough one and other makers don't like seeing little Mazda pass without the use of Urea/AdBlue.

As usual MAZDA do not do "normal", they are not the same 'sheep'.

MattMPS

Yes, but in today's configuration 2.2 SA D will not meet US most restricted standards for Nox

I suspect that Mazda realized that, made some verify on US-spec VW ,and decide to stop the whole US-Diesel program.

Good decision IMHO.

Remember the fact that i'm one of the few europeans that drives a recent GASOLINE car .....

A friend of mine have an expensive 2013 Audi Q5 2.0 D that is affected by dieselgate, now is envy my choice in some way....:D

Love_Hounds

That's just because our US standards are total BS, but we ship freight everywhere in this country using trailer trucks which for the most part use diesel(as a result in my state we also tax diesel significantly, also BS). It really sucks that the VW scandal happened, I am a big supporter of diesel and have been trying to convince people to buy diesel vehicles. Now it just got that much harder.

GK1707

iTrader: (10)

Sounds like something a rotary owner would do to pass inspection.

MattMPS

here in EU automotive analysts say that diesel in US is probably dead.

I suspect that this scandal will change something also here in the Old Continent.

I'm agnostic about diesel vs gas, but i'm pretty sure here in EU there is some market distortions , i hope that more will be invested in gasoline engines research/hybrids (maybe better than now) and so on.

i suspect also that diesels (even with DPF) are affecting micro climate of ours cities with PM.

Love_Hounds

I hear you. I mean the diesel cycle engine is a better design then the otto cycle in many ways. Additionally, I agree that petroleum diesel will die out, but biodiesel blends(vegetable oils, algae) are pretty damn promising. Or just did what Rudolf Diesel did originally, and run 'em off of peanut oil

EDIT: Also, there is Audi's blue crude and eDiesel, which is made FROM carbon pollution in the air(among other things like water and solar/wind power).

ASH8

SA-D Did make Nox emissions for US.

MikeTyson8MyKids

iTrader: (1)

Correct, but it never met the performance they were looking for. Simpley, to retain performance and reliability, and pass US NOx, there needs to be urea/scr aftertreatment (with current aftertreatment tech).

I think our VW owners are about to find this out the hard way.

ASH8

Again, a red herring to cover up the FACT that the SA-D does not and never did have performance or emissions issues in the USA.
(IMO this engine has structural design flaws which can not be overcome until SKYACTIV II is released in a few years time.)

This is all a smoke screen (excuse) to Stop manufacturing of North American spec SA-D as these engines like in other countries where they had been on sale for over a year, (use exact same engine parts) were failing roadside and curb side, it is called reliability.
1. The 2.2 Turbo's were failing (not supplied or made by Mazda).
2. The Exhaust Camshaft was subject to excessive Cam lobe wear, due to the fact that the engine oil was/is being rapidly diluted with Diesel Fuel, resulting in Engine Oil Level Rising Complaint and Dash warning lights.
3. The Rocker arms were consequently damaged also because of #2.

These Diesel engines were extensively driven and tested in many mules and later in cammo models (closer to production) inside every continent where Mazda sells their product for 11 months before final production had commenced.

North America was allocated room to start production for their specified model range, however, these engines and cars (CX-5 + MZ6) were giving major troubles in UK, Germany, France, Australia and New Zealand, so much so that a stop production and allocation for ANY first of diesel engine supply for the USA.
Mazda Dealers in the USA had ZERO experience in Diesel diagnosis, repair and reporting of these mechanical failures.
There would have been a line up of parked new cars 5 times the size of the RX-8 problems/issues, a public relations nightmare for a brand new product range and a liability repair bill giving MNAO one giant headache.

Even after 3 years of Mazda trying to sort out these known defects in the SA-D 2.2l turbo diesel there is still owner complaint., not about performance, but the persistent dash warning lights, oil level rising, multiple and regular owner Dealer visits changing of oil and filters too regularly, even giving owners full refunds of their purchase...happy days.

MattMPS

gimme some hints, Ash..which ones are you talking about?

the issues you listed can be addressed without a re-engineering, and in some cases there is a recall/changement.

MikeTyson8MyKids

iTrader: (1)

I would call frequent CEL, parts failures, and constant failures by the road performance issues...lol.

Now, you say they are seeing frequent turbo failures, cam wear, and fuel dilution. These are directly related. Turbo bearing systems don't like high levels of fuel soluables, which leads to premature bearing wear. Cams dont like that either, as they are seeing high amounts of wear. That isn't an engine structure problem, that is a fuel dilution problem, but an alteration to the engine may help (more on that in a second).

Where is all the fuel dilution coming from? Without SCR there to sort out the NOx, more fuel needs to be used. And it is just a chain reation from there:

1) More fuel is used to lower NOx
2) To meet particulate matter emisions, they rely on the DPF to capture all those hard particulates.
3) The DPF needs to be cleaned more frequently, with higher amounts being captured.
4) DPF gets cleaned by regens
5) Mazda engines are in-cylinder dosing, so all the extra fuel is pumped through the cyliniders for regen
6) This is where your fuel in oil comes from, along with having to run slightly more during normal operation to meet NOx.

Can you "pass" NOx without SCR? Sure....but this is what you get (especially with in-cylinder dosing).

Now, all those countries you named off, current emisions laws in those contries allow for nearly twice the NOx as current US standards. This stacks the deck even more against non-scr diesels. If they are having all those fuel dilution issues in those countries, it would only be worse in the US.

Now, how to combat those issues?

One method is to move to post cylinder dosing (injector in the exhaust stream) for regens. This removes all that extra doing from the cylinders, and should reduce fuel dilution of the oil significantly.

Next method is SCR. Run the engine for optimal power/mileage, allowing the diesel to shine where it shines...with great efficiency. This would add a bunch of NOx to the exhaust stream, but that's why you have the SCR system on the back end of the aftertreatment to sort that out.

Some more reading:
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...able-exec-says

None of these issues are "new" diesel problems. Its all been seen before, espeically in the heavy duty North American market with the start of EPA07.