Vtec/Variocam/Vanos
12-13-2005, 03:55 PM
#1
Kaiten Kenbu Rokuren
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Vtec/Variocam/Vanos
Out of all of these kinds of systems, who was first? I am being badgered by someone because I was under the impression that Honda developed this kind of system first. He says Ferrari but I can't find any information telling me that. Can someone maybe fill me in and tell me where I can see this information? Thanks a lot.
12-13-2005, 04:01 PM
#3
Kaiten Kenbu Rokuren
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by BlueEyes
NSX had the first variable valve timing on a production car.
12-13-2005, 04:09 PM
#5
Ferrari is most certainly a production car. Anyway, I don't know what the ferrari version is called, I know it works similar to Vanos, using cam phasing. Though, I believe they did it before Vanos.
I looked for a timeline, but couldn't find one. Everything I see says NSX was the first, however.
I looked for a timeline, but couldn't find one. Everything I see says NSX was the first, however.
12-13-2005, 04:10 PM
#6
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Originally Posted by Aoshi Shinomori
Out of all of these kinds of systems, who was first? I am being badgered by someone because I was under the impression that Honda developed this kind of system first. He says Ferrari but I can't find any information telling me that. Can someone maybe fill me in and tell me where I can see this information? Thanks a lot.
The first experimentation with variable valve timing and lift was performed by General Motors. GM was actually interested in throttling the intake valves in order to reduce emissions. This was done by minimizing the amount of lift at low load to keep the intake velocity higher, thereby atomizing the intake charge. GM encountered problems running at very low lift, and abandoned the project.
The first functional variable valve timing system, including variable lift, was developed at Fiat. Developed by Giovanni Torazza in the 1970s, the system used hydraulic pressure to vary the fulcrum of the cam followers. The hydraulic pressure changed according to engine speed and intake pressure. The typical opening variation was 37%.
The next big step was taken by Honda in the late 1980s and 90s, where Honda began by experimenting with variable valve lift. Pleased with the results, engineers took the knowledge and applied it to the B16A engine, fitted to the 1989 EF9 Honda Civic. From there it has been used in a variety of applications, from sport to utility, by many different auto makers.
In the year 1992, BMW introduced VANOS, their version of a variable valve timing system, on the BMW M50 engine used in the 3 Series. VANOS significantly enhances emission management, increases output and torque, and offers better idling quality and fuel economy. The latest version of VANOS is double-VANOS, used in the new M3. Double-VANOS adds an adjustment of the intake and outlet camshafts.
Variable valve timing was the sole domain of overhead cam engines until the 2005, when General Motors began offering the LZE and LZ4, pushrod V6 engines with VVT. For the 2006 model year, General Motors will introduce the Vortec 6200, the first mass-produced pushrod engine with variable valve timing.
The first functional variable valve timing system, including variable lift, was developed at Fiat. Developed by Giovanni Torazza in the 1970s, the system used hydraulic pressure to vary the fulcrum of the cam followers. The hydraulic pressure changed according to engine speed and intake pressure. The typical opening variation was 37%.
The next big step was taken by Honda in the late 1980s and 90s, where Honda began by experimenting with variable valve lift. Pleased with the results, engineers took the knowledge and applied it to the B16A engine, fitted to the 1989 EF9 Honda Civic. From there it has been used in a variety of applications, from sport to utility, by many different auto makers.
In the year 1992, BMW introduced VANOS, their version of a variable valve timing system, on the BMW M50 engine used in the 3 Series. VANOS significantly enhances emission management, increases output and torque, and offers better idling quality and fuel economy. The latest version of VANOS is double-VANOS, used in the new M3. Double-VANOS adds an adjustment of the intake and outlet camshafts.
Variable valve timing was the sole domain of overhead cam engines until the 2005, when General Motors began offering the LZE and LZ4, pushrod V6 engines with VVT. For the 2006 model year, General Motors will introduce the Vortec 6200, the first mass-produced pushrod engine with variable valve timing.
12-13-2005, 04:36 PM
#8
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Originally Posted by BlueEyes
So, what the hell. Is the EF9 civic a production car? Anyhow, seems as if Honda was the first to put it into production.
12-13-2005, 05:13 PM
#10
Bummed, but bring on OU!
Mazda had its first variable intake timing system on the '81 JDM 6port 12A motor, if I remember reading correctly. Not entirely the same, but without camshafts it's the closest thing.
12-13-2005, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by brillo
I don't count Ferrari as they are not really a production car.
Honda is likely the first, with Porsche right behind it.
Honda is likely the first, with Porsche right behind it.
12-13-2005, 06:05 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by therm8
Mazda had its first variable intake timing system on the '81 JDM 6port 12A motor, if I remember reading correctly. Not entirely the same, but without camshafts it's the closest thing.
12-13-2005, 07:35 PM
#14
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Originally Posted by rotarygod
Correct! I was going to say this but you beat me to it. Mazda was first to do variable timing on a production car and it was first used on a rotary! If you want to go even farther back, they first tried the "combo port" back in the very early 70's which was a combination side and peripheral port that was controlled by opening additional butterflies on a carb.
Did this "combo port" (70's) make it into production?, if so what model, I am trying to recall, or was it only JDM.
I think this set up was in the JDM 'Luce' 4 Door in 1981.
Here, the piston model was the 929, 2 and 4 door hardtop...Luce rotary was never exported to.AU
As dealers we thought that this was coming to Australia as an RX-6, I recall looking at the car in Mazda's reception in Hiroshima...it was a deep blue 4 door hardtop.,,and yes 12A(B).
Last edited by ASH8; 12-13-2005 at 07:46 PM.
12-14-2005, 01:15 PM
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Ferrari and NSX are hardly mass-production vehicles.
I'd still probably consider the B16A-powered Civics to be the first incarnation (haha, I made a funny) of true variable valve timing technology on a mass-production scheme. Agreeably, Mazda, Fiat, and Ferrari all probably 'did it' first, but mass-production is where it counts...
I'd still probably consider the B16A-powered Civics to be the first incarnation (haha, I made a funny) of true variable valve timing technology on a mass-production scheme. Agreeably, Mazda, Fiat, and Ferrari all probably 'did it' first, but mass-production is where it counts...
12-14-2005, 01:19 PM
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Ferrari also made a version of variable lift that was continuously variable, rather than the two-lobe vtec system. Basically the lobe was a smooth taper between low and high lift, and the follower was at an angle, thus varying the lift as the cam slid.
12-14-2005, 01:35 PM
#18
Originally Posted by YT1300
Ferrari and NSX are hardly mass-production vehicles.
I'd still probably consider the B16A-powered Civics to be the first incarnation (haha, I made a funny) of true variable valve timing technology on a mass-production scheme. Agreeably, Mazda, Fiat, and Ferrari all probably 'did it' first, but mass-production is where it counts...
I'd still probably consider the B16A-powered Civics to be the first incarnation (haha, I made a funny) of true variable valve timing technology on a mass-production scheme. Agreeably, Mazda, Fiat, and Ferrari all probably 'did it' first, but mass-production is where it counts...
If we're talking about dabbled in it first, then GM seems to be the answer. If we're talking who put it on a production car first, it seems to be Honda. Over in NA, the first car would be the NSX, in '91. I fail to see how being mass produced changes the fact that is was produced.
12-14-2005, 01:36 PM
#19
Originally Posted by tuj
Ferrari also made a version of variable lift that was continuously variable, rather than the two-lobe vtec system. Basically the lobe was a smooth taper between low and high lift, and the follower was at an angle, thus varying the lift as the cam slid.
12-14-2005, 05:05 PM
#20
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Originally Posted by ASH8
Did this "combo port" (70's) make it into production?, if so what model, I am trying to recall, or was it only JDM.
12-14-2005, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueEyes
NSX had the first variable valve timing on a production car.
Nope. The civic si or sir (can't remember) technically had it before the NSX.
12-14-2005, 10:16 PM
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The cynical reply: mass production counts in that a manufacturer thinks that they can actually put the engine into a car, and provide a standard warranty, and still make money.
The more-likely reason: mass production counts in that a manufacturer thinks that there are enough people stupid enough to buy a car with finicky technology and questionable reliability, and, despite a few trying to make warranty claims, still make money.
Oops. Maybe the "cynical" and "more-likely" labels are switched there...
The more-likely reason: mass production counts in that a manufacturer thinks that there are enough people stupid enough to buy a car with finicky technology and questionable reliability, and, despite a few trying to make warranty claims, still make money.
Oops. Maybe the "cynical" and "more-likely" labels are switched there...
12-14-2005, 10:21 PM
#24
That's nonsense. What was the first car with a gasoline engine? The one that sold X number of units, or the first car that had a gasoline engine in it?
Similarily, what was the first production car with a gasoline engine? the one that sold X number of units, or the first gasoline engine car sold to the public?
Similarily, what was the first production car with a gasoline engine? the one that sold X number of units, or the first gasoline engine car sold to the public?