RX8 VS Mazdaspeed 3
05-18-2007, 01:08 AM
#26
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05-18-2007, 03:10 AM
#28
Ok, let me get this out of the way first 
I currently own both cars so I may be the best qualified to answer this. There is no way in hell a stock RX-8 will walk a stock MS3, if you think so, you are drunk. In fact, I don't think there is anyway any NA RX-8 will walk a Speed3. An RX-8 with a turbo kit running 10+ psi might have a chance. There is a guy on another forum who is running over 300 fwhp and well over 300 fw torque with about $2000 in mods ( Protege Garage TMIC, MS CAI, XEDE, and CP-E exhaust). I don't car how you spend $2000 on an RX-8, you won't get there. The Speed3 is also no slouch in handling either, but won't touch the RX-8 in this category. Stock vs. Stock I think the Speed3 will run away on the track. Now an RX-8 with a turbo kit vs. stock MS3, if the track doesn't have long straights, I take the RX-8. IMHO, the only way an RX-8 will walk a Speed3 (in a straight line) is with a Mazsport Turbo Kit. A properly tuned GReddy kit will take a Speed3 on a twisty track (NHIS, Pacific Raceways).
Now all that being said, which is more fun to drive? Hands down the RX-8. The Speed3 is FWD, and we all know the limitations there. At the track, the Speed3 would just be drag racing between corners, and thats not much fun (if you want to do that, go get a Mustang GT). The RX-8's gearbox is better, handling is better, more sexy, etc etc. I will not be tracking my Speed3 because the 8 is too much fun.
I currently own both cars so I may be the best qualified to answer this. There is no way in hell a stock RX-8 will walk a stock MS3, if you think so, you are drunk. In fact, I don't think there is anyway any NA RX-8 will walk a Speed3. An RX-8 with a turbo kit running 10+ psi might have a chance. There is a guy on another forum who is running over 300 fwhp and well over 300 fw torque with about $2000 in mods ( Protege Garage TMIC, MS CAI, XEDE, and CP-E exhaust). I don't car how you spend $2000 on an RX-8, you won't get there. The Speed3 is also no slouch in handling either, but won't touch the RX-8 in this category. Stock vs. Stock I think the Speed3 will run away on the track. Now an RX-8 with a turbo kit vs. stock MS3, if the track doesn't have long straights, I take the RX-8. IMHO, the only way an RX-8 will walk a Speed3 (in a straight line) is with a Mazsport Turbo Kit. A properly tuned GReddy kit will take a Speed3 on a twisty track (NHIS, Pacific Raceways).
Now all that being said, which is more fun to drive? Hands down the RX-8. The Speed3 is FWD, and we all know the limitations there. At the track, the Speed3 would just be drag racing between corners, and thats not much fun (if you want to do that, go get a Mustang GT). The RX-8's gearbox is better, handling is better, more sexy, etc etc. I will not be tracking my Speed3 because the 8 is too much fun.
The RX-8 can beat MS3s on the track. When the turns come, don't expect the MS3 to hang around unless you've done some serious suspension mods.... The MS3 is still a box when its all said and done.
The MS3 does well in 0-60. But, what a pro driver of a magazine can do and what a guy on the street can do are 2 different things.
I do like that more people realize that the RX-8 has some FI options and more are on the way. If Mazda had a clue, they would pick the Pettit or AFSC supercharger for their Mazdaspeed RX-8. Be that as it may.... People can go FI on their RX-8 and nobody should really have anything bad to say about an FI RX-8.
5.8-6.0 0-60 is nothing to sneeze at. It just that car makers have been focusing on this area while the RX-8 has stayed the same for the last 4 years. Maybe a little too much as 0-60 numbers may be coming at the price of overall performance and quality. Which is still why the RX-8 is rated so highly. Also, I'm sure Mazda will keep those 0-60 numbers in mind for a new 2009-10 RX.
The turbo MS3 is rated in the same 5.8-6.0 0-60 range.
So, I'm confused about how people feel the MS3 is going to "dance all over" the RX-8, when mags are recording close to the same times.
When it comes to mods, lets not forget that RX-8s can go that route too. I would rather be in a 300HP RX-8 than a 300HP MS3 any day.
Last edited by sosonic; 05-18-2007 at 03:14 AM.
05-18-2007, 05:18 AM
#29
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The most recent test of the MS3 had it running 14 flat with a trap speed of 101 mph, 0-130 was 29 seconds. An RX-8 usually runs in the 35 second range 0-130. Now picture this, a car goes by you at 130 mph, count to 6 and see how far it is away from you, we're talking several buslengths. It isn't even close... Yes, the RX-8 handles better, but not so much better that the MS3 can't make up the difference in laptimes with the extra power. That said, laptimes don't make a car any more or les fun to drive.
Lastly, it just cracks me up how so many people here act like slapping a turbo or supercharger on an N/A engine, one that is sensitive to detonation and heat at that, is such a simple solution to getting more power from the RX-8. The other funny one is how many people talk about the handling capabilities of the RX-8 yet they'll never take it to the track and never test its limits on the streets.
They're both fun cars, that go about their fun in very different ways. These MS3 vs. RX-8 threads are just like the old SRT-4 threads, the MS3 is just a little slower and has a prettier interior.
Lastly, it just cracks me up how so many people here act like slapping a turbo or supercharger on an N/A engine, one that is sensitive to detonation and heat at that, is such a simple solution to getting more power from the RX-8. The other funny one is how many people talk about the handling capabilities of the RX-8 yet they'll never take it to the track and never test its limits on the streets.
They're both fun cars, that go about their fun in very different ways. These MS3 vs. RX-8 threads are just like the old SRT-4 threads, the MS3 is just a little slower and has a prettier interior.
05-18-2007, 06:21 AM
#30
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http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re...04/2007.WIN.P1
No one really see my lap times!
I have driven both cars on the track, in the wet! I can tell you RX-8 is much faster on the track.
Power is not everything. I drove a turbo RX-8 recently with 200kW atw and I cannot beat my own times set by my car. And my car's engine is basically stock.
No one really see my lap times!
I have driven both cars on the track, in the wet! I can tell you RX-8 is much faster on the track.
Power is not everything. I drove a turbo RX-8 recently with 200kW atw and I cannot beat my own times set by my car. And my car's engine is basically stock.
05-18-2007, 10:03 AM
#31
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http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/re...04/2007.WIN.P1
No one really see my lap times!
I have driven both cars on the track, in the wet! I can tell you RX-8 is much faster on the track.
Power is not everything. I drove a turbo RX-8 recently with 200kW atw and I cannot beat my own times set by my car. And my car's engine is basically stock.
No one really see my lap times!
I have driven both cars on the track, in the wet! I can tell you RX-8 is much faster on the track.
Power is not everything. I drove a turbo RX-8 recently with 200kW atw and I cannot beat my own times set by my car. And my car's engine is basically stock.
I still find it amusing that the vs. threads always has some schmoe needing to know that car A is faster than car B. And fortunately for them, there always no shortage of schmoe's using stats like 0 to 130 to conclude "it wouldn't even be close" - as if we all go WOT for 40 seconds on our daily commutes!!
How about some logic... assuming equal drivers who nail the throttle at the exact same time on a long enough stretch of road, which is always a large assumption ignored here, the MS should be quicker on a straight line, especially after 80/90 mph. On a track, I'd say it would depend on the track, a tighter one would favor the RX8, a higher speed one would favor the 3.
I've never seen them compared because they ARE apples to oranges. But the trap times from this one test supports what I'd expect both to do on a track...
http://www.wheels.ca/article/26915
05-18-2007, 12:45 PM
#32
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05-18-2007, 06:33 PM
#33
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How about some logic... assuming equal drivers who nail the throttle at the exact same time on a long enough stretch of road, which is always a large assumption ignored here, the MS should be quicker on a straight line, especially after 80/90 mph. On a track, I'd say it would depend on the track, a tighter one would favor the RX8, a higher speed one would favor the 3.
I can tell you autoX will be a killer for a FWD car with that much torque. You can make lots of mistake putting the foot wrong and spin the wheel.
It is much easier to get consistent lap times in the RX-8. A sorted out RX-8 is very hard to beat.
BTW I have not done any form of track driving before the RX-8. RX-8 making the driver that I am now.
05-18-2007, 07:16 PM
#34
The most recent test of the MS3 had it running 14 flat with a trap speed of 101 mph, 0-130 was 29 seconds. An RX-8 usually runs in the 35 second range 0-130. Now picture this, a car goes by you at 130 mph, count to 6 and see how far it is away from you, we're talking several buslengths. It isn't even close... Yes, the RX-8 handles better, but not so much better that the MS3 can't make up the difference in laptimes with the extra power. That said, laptimes don't make a car any more or les fun to drive.
Lastly, it just cracks me up how so many people here act like slapping a turbo or supercharger on an N/A engine, one that is sensitive to detonation and heat at that, is such a simple solution to getting more power from the RX-8. The other funny one is how many people talk about the handling capabilities of the RX-8 yet they'll never take it to the track and never test its limits on the streets.
They're both fun cars, that go about their fun in very different ways. These MS3 vs. RX-8 threads are just like the old SRT-4 threads, the MS3 is just a little slower and has a prettier interior.
Lastly, it just cracks me up how so many people here act like slapping a turbo or supercharger on an N/A engine, one that is sensitive to detonation and heat at that, is such a simple solution to getting more power from the RX-8. The other funny one is how many people talk about the handling capabilities of the RX-8 yet they'll never take it to the track and never test its limits on the streets.
They're both fun cars, that go about their fun in very different ways. These MS3 vs. RX-8 threads are just like the old SRT-4 threads, the MS3 is just a little slower and has a prettier interior.
I also have every confidence that the Pettit SC stage 1 to 3 kits will demonstrate they are easy to put on and last a long time on the cars they are on .
It would be interesting to see how the AFSC will compare, but I bet it will be easy to install and maintain too.
05-18-2007, 10:43 PM
#35
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heres a clip of my rx8 W/cai vs stock ms3. it was pretty damn close!!!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8SCIG_iBqeM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8SCIG_iBqeM
05-19-2007, 04:22 AM
#36
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I wouldn't be so quick to say the Speed3 is faster even in a straight line. I have a buddy with the Speed3 and we've run several times. I don't have any problem pulling him. Of course, I don't mind dumping the clutch at around 6k and I'm not quite stock anymore either (although I am still NA).
With that said, straight line power isn't everything, and the RX8 is a sexy, absolutely fun to drive machine, and the fact that it's not as fast as the Speed 3 doesn't say much to me. There are a lot more things to a car then power and performance.
05-19-2007, 04:45 PM
#37
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There is just such a huge anti-FWD bias areound here that it blows me away. I don't think that there are very many actual racers on this site because anyone who has been to a Road Course or especially an autocross knows that there are plenty of FWD cars that could hand you your a$$ on a silver platter. With the right driver, nearly any POS front-driver can simply dominate people.
Don't forget that in the recent Car & Driver comparison, the RX-8 got beaten by nearly 2 seconds by a stock FWD Audi TT 2.0T.
I usually placed top 10 raw times in my regional SCCA autocrosses with a street-tired SVT Focus, beating many much "faster" cars along the way. A FWD car can handle and be very very fast in the hands of someone who knows how.
Don't forget that in the recent Car & Driver comparison, the RX-8 got beaten by nearly 2 seconds by a stock FWD Audi TT 2.0T.
I usually placed top 10 raw times in my regional SCCA autocrosses with a street-tired SVT Focus, beating many much "faster" cars along the way. A FWD car can handle and be very very fast in the hands of someone who knows how.
05-19-2007, 06:48 PM
#39
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go play need for speed carbon, it has a very realistic portrayal of how the ms3 and the rx8 responds to mods. I believe in the game the rx8 is the best tier one handling car, but the ms3 is quicker in the straights. Both drivers being equal in the game, im sure the rx8 would win.
Now some of you might say that its just a game, its not realistic, but i beg to differ, 1)the rx8 gets slightly better acceleration with turbo and bolt ons and suspension increases greatly with suspension mods. 2) the ms3 responds better to engine mods and has better straight line performance, but suffers on the big turns where it really counts on driver skill.
Now some of you might say that its just a game, its not realistic, but i beg to differ, 1)the rx8 gets slightly better acceleration with turbo and bolt ons and suspension increases greatly with suspension mods. 2) the ms3 responds better to engine mods and has better straight line performance, but suffers on the big turns where it really counts on driver skill.
Last edited by rowteree; 05-19-2007 at 07:20 PM.
05-19-2007, 06:55 PM
#40
Grand Chancellor
Are people that insecure here? That some factory tuned econobox will outrun our precious rx8 that owners have to post all sorts of "if" situations? Geez... when I had my old MZ3, it never bothered me one bit that a Dodge Neon turbo or an EVO will out sprint me. I feel secure about what I purchased then and now with the 8 so what if some souped up hatchback will toast me at the hwy or whatnot.
I bought the 8 after much shopping around and discover overtime that Mazda put heckuva thought into designing this car around the Renesis. Just look at the details put in on the RX-8 vs. the rest of the Mazda lineup and you can easily see why to this date the RX-8 is still Mazda's flagship.
I like the fact that the other day when I pulled into the Mazda dealership that the sales guys or the technician all stopped whatever be it wiping a MSP6 or a mazda3 to look at the 8 and its driver.
Likewise I am sure the 3series coupe owners would be pwned by these crop of hot-boxes, but I doubt any one of 'em would want to trade their 330ci or whatnot for one of those. There's more to life....mmmkay.
I bought the 8 after much shopping around and discover overtime that Mazda put heckuva thought into designing this car around the Renesis. Just look at the details put in on the RX-8 vs. the rest of the Mazda lineup and you can easily see why to this date the RX-8 is still Mazda's flagship.
I like the fact that the other day when I pulled into the Mazda dealership that the sales guys or the technician all stopped whatever be it wiping a MSP6 or a mazda3 to look at the 8 and its driver.
Likewise I am sure the 3series coupe owners would be pwned by these crop of hot-boxes, but I doubt any one of 'em would want to trade their 330ci or whatnot for one of those. There's more to life....mmmkay.
05-20-2007, 02:24 PM
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go play need for speed carbon, it has a very realistic portrayal of how the ms3 and the rx8 responds to mods. I believe in the game the rx8 is the best tier one handling car, but the ms3 is quicker in the straights. Both drivers being equal in the game, im sure the rx8 would win.
Now some of you might say that its just a game, its not realistic, but i beg to differ, 1)the rx8 gets slightly better acceleration with turbo and bolt ons and suspension increases greatly with suspension mods. 2) the ms3 responds better to engine mods and has better straight line performance, but suffers on the big turns where it really counts on driver skill.
Now some of you might say that its just a game, its not realistic, but i beg to differ, 1)the rx8 gets slightly better acceleration with turbo and bolt ons and suspension increases greatly with suspension mods. 2) the ms3 responds better to engine mods and has better straight line performance, but suffers on the big turns where it really counts on driver skill.
05-20-2007, 02:35 PM
#46
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I don't know what people think they are talking about.
There are only 2 categories that the MS3 will out do an RX-8. 0-60 and gas mileage. Even in the 0-60, it's really close and would depend on the driver. Depending on the driver and the RPM he is launching at, the 0-60 can go to the RX-8.
Brakes, turns, handling, etc... go to the RX-8.
Also, there are mods for the RX-8. Has nobody paid attention to the Pettit SC, Greddy Turbo, Mazsport Turbo (versions of the kit can put down 400 HP), etc...??? There are NA mods for the RX-8 like AP pulley, flywheel, exhaust, ram air duct, etc... Now you may question what the gains are for the mods on each car, but don't think the RX-8 can't get improvement from its mods.
Furthermore, the RX-8 can handle the mods in terms of handling of the car. The MS3 is still a box, that with too much power you may "lose control" in the wrong situation.
Lastly, when it comes to looks of the car, there is no comparison. The RX-8 wins hands down.
There are only 2 categories that the MS3 will out do an RX-8. 0-60 and gas mileage. Even in the 0-60, it's really close and would depend on the driver. Depending on the driver and the RPM he is launching at, the 0-60 can go to the RX-8.
Brakes, turns, handling, etc... go to the RX-8.
Also, there are mods for the RX-8. Has nobody paid attention to the Pettit SC, Greddy Turbo, Mazsport Turbo (versions of the kit can put down 400 HP), etc...??? There are NA mods for the RX-8 like AP pulley, flywheel, exhaust, ram air duct, etc... Now you may question what the gains are for the mods on each car, but don't think the RX-8 can't get improvement from its mods.
Furthermore, the RX-8 can handle the mods in terms of handling of the car. The MS3 is still a box, that with too much power you may "lose control" in the wrong situation.
Lastly, when it comes to looks of the car, there is no comparison. The RX-8 wins hands down.
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Mazdaspeed 3
Zero to 60 mph: 5.8 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 14.8 sec
Zero to 120 mph: 21.9 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 6.7 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.4 sec @ 99 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 167 ft
Roadholding, 200-ft-dia skidpad: 0.87 g
RX-8
.92g skidpad (like i said..handling is excellent..as it should be on this car)
Zero to 60 mph: 6.5 sec (not even close to the 3)
Zero to 100 in 18.0 sec (arriving here almost 4 seconds after the 3..are you kidding??)
Braking, 70-0 mph: 163ft (not much diff here i would say..esp. for a car that weighs about 200 lbs less than a speed 3)
1/4 mile in 15 @ 93mph
get my point? i'm not mad at ya! it's just people should be a little more informed when they just start ripping a car...****..it's a mazda! be proud of the sucker!
and as already stated..2 of us that have owned both..spoke up and say the 3 is more performance than 8..period..
even around most tracks..the 3 will still win..no flaming going on as i love the 8..it's just fact. point is..just enjoy your ride..there are always faster cars than you..
05-20-2007, 02:38 PM
#47
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go play need for speed carbon, it has a very realistic portrayal of how the ms3 and the rx8 responds to mods. I believe in the game the rx8 is the best tier one handling car, but the ms3 is quicker in the straights. Both drivers being equal in the game, im sure the rx8 would win.
Now some of you might say that its just a game, its not realistic, but i beg to differ, 1)the rx8 gets slightly better acceleration with turbo and bolt ons and suspension increases greatly with suspension mods. 2) the ms3 responds better to engine mods and has better straight line performance, but suffers on the big turns where it really counts on driver skill.
Now some of you might say that its just a game, its not realistic, but i beg to differ, 1)the rx8 gets slightly better acceleration with turbo and bolt ons and suspension increases greatly with suspension mods. 2) the ms3 responds better to engine mods and has better straight line performance, but suffers on the big turns where it really counts on driver skill.
i have played it..and once again..if you notice in the begining..it even tells you the cars aren't exactly a portrayal of real life cars performance..and it's obvious when in the game..after modding the 3 it hardly gets to 120!!
sorry dude.. but in r/l the thing gets to 120 like a bat out of hell..and then past it...stock. not to mention 155 limited speed where the rx-8 (still seconds from reaching it's top speed) will be dissapearing in the horizon behind you...right now..like it or not the speed 3 is mazdas fastest car.. that may change in 2010 with the supposed new rx-7 coming.. and it should be..shoot..i think mazda messed up not making the 8 (it's top tier car) the fastest one..or at least damn close..edit- the only game i've seen that is almost so accurate you can base your performance by it has been the gran turismo series.. hopefully they'll come out with a new one soon.
Last edited by rx8pilot; 05-20-2007 at 02:47 PM.
05-20-2007, 03:01 PM
#48
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ok dude..i'm telling you from experience of actually owning both cars...as did someone else on this post.. so take it for what you will... and as always..beauty is objective.. i happen to like the way the hatch looks..that's me..i don't care if you do or not.. i also loved the way the 8 looked..which is why i gave it the nod over the 3.. as far as braking..handing..and "handling mods" it's obvious to me you don't really know the speed 3... i don't know where you got your braking bit..but it stops rather well.. in fact it's 60-0 is one foot shy of a brembo equipped EVO...so u tell me if that's bad or not.. and here are direct figures from car and driver for reference.
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Mazdaspeed 3
Zero to 60 mph: 5.8 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 14.8 sec
Zero to 120 mph: 21.9 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 6.7 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.4 sec @ 99 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 167 ft
Roadholding, 200-ft-dia skidpad: 0.87 g
RX-8
.92g skidpad (like i said..handling is excellent..as it should be on this car)
Zero to 60 mph: 6.5 sec (not even close to the 3)
Zero to 100 in 18.0 sec (arriving here almost 4 seconds after the 3..are you kidding??)
Braking, 70-0 mph: 163ft (not much diff here i would say..esp. for a car that weighs about 200 lbs less than a speed 3)
1/4 mile in 15 @ 93mph
get my point? i'm not mad at ya! it's just people should be a little more informed when they just start ripping a car...****..it's a mazda! be proud of the sucker!
and as already stated..2 of us that have owned both..spoke up and say the 3 is more performance than 8..period..
even around most tracks..the 3 will still win..no flaming going on as i love the 8..it's just fact. point is..just enjoy your ride..there are always faster cars than you..
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Mazdaspeed 3
Zero to 60 mph: 5.8 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 14.8 sec
Zero to 120 mph: 21.9 sec
Street start, 5–60 mph: 6.7 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 14.4 sec @ 99 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 167 ft
Roadholding, 200-ft-dia skidpad: 0.87 g
RX-8
.92g skidpad (like i said..handling is excellent..as it should be on this car)
Zero to 60 mph: 6.5 sec (not even close to the 3)
Zero to 100 in 18.0 sec (arriving here almost 4 seconds after the 3..are you kidding??)
Braking, 70-0 mph: 163ft (not much diff here i would say..esp. for a car that weighs about 200 lbs less than a speed 3)
1/4 mile in 15 @ 93mph
get my point? i'm not mad at ya! it's just people should be a little more informed when they just start ripping a car...****..it's a mazda! be proud of the sucker!
and as already stated..2 of us that have owned both..spoke up and say the 3 is more performance than 8..period..
even around most tracks..the 3 will still win..no flaming going on as i love the 8..it's just fact. point is..just enjoy your ride..there are always faster cars than you..
Furthermore, as was stated above, we should all be applauding Mazda for releasing such a great car. Have you seen how much press the MS3 is getting? Its been on the cover of almost every major car mag since it came out. Mazda is getting great coverage. Oh, and guess what.. they are using that coverage to boot strap excitement about the new RX-7, thats good for us!! AAAND, as I've stated before on this forum, where do you think Mazda is getting its $$$ for R&D on the rotary?? Yah, the Mazda3 and Mazda6 sales!! We are all in the same family, grow up and clap, this buds for you.
05-20-2007, 03:13 PM
#49
Registered
OMG i just read this! hahahahahaha
i have played it..and once again..if you notice in the begining..it even tells you the cars aren't exactly a portrayal of real life cars performance..and it's obvious when in the game..after modding the 3 it hardly gets to 120!! sorry dude.. but in r/l the thing gets to 120 like a bat out of hell..and then past it...stock. not to mention 155 limited speed where the rx-8 (still seconds from reaching it's top speed) will be dissapearing in the horizon behind you...right now..like it or not the speed 3 is mazdas fastest car.. that may change in 2010 with the supposed new rx-7 coming.. and it should be..shoot..i think mazda messed up not making the 8 (it's top tier car) the fastest one..or at least damn close..
edit- the only game i've seen that is almost so accurate you can base your performance by it has been the gran turismo series.. hopefully they'll come out with a new one soon.
i have played it..and once again..if you notice in the begining..it even tells you the cars aren't exactly a portrayal of real life cars performance..and it's obvious when in the game..after modding the 3 it hardly gets to 120!!
sorry dude.. but in r/l the thing gets to 120 like a bat out of hell..and then past it...stock. not to mention 155 limited speed where the rx-8 (still seconds from reaching it's top speed) will be dissapearing in the horizon behind you...right now..like it or not the speed 3 is mazdas fastest car.. that may change in 2010 with the supposed new rx-7 coming.. and it should be..shoot..i think mazda messed up not making the 8 (it's top tier car) the fastest one..or at least damn close..edit- the only game i've seen that is almost so accurate you can base your performance by it has been the gran turismo series.. hopefully they'll come out with a new one soon.
05-20-2007, 03:15 PM
#50
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ur right!! except it's not good to be faster through a turn if you don't have the torque to come out of it right?
and the "handling" flag wavers for this car should know that around a track ...where handling should outshine power..or make it equal..the speed 3 is getting around that faster too.....nuff said