renesis in elise?
10-13-2007, 01:33 PM
#76
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I still don't get why anyone would do this...... I'd rather put in a honda motor that can achieve better fuel mileage and put out the same numbers than the renesis.
10-13-2007, 04:48 PM
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I really don't see a point in swapping a 13B into an Elise. It'd be like swapping a Subaru H4 into a RX-8. Utterly pointless.
10-13-2007, 04:53 PM
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You don't know that it would be more centered. You also don't know that centered would be better, you're doing nothing but making assumptions... There's also no way the Renesis is 180 lbs. dry, I guarantee that is not a dressed weight (with accessories).
Lastly, I don't know where you come up with this nonsense. Show me one single source that shows the federal elise as having a 7800rpm redline. That's where it makes peak power, that's NOT redline. I believe I've pointed out the same mistake on other cars to you before, but seemingly you still don't get it. Some sources list the redline at 8k, others at 8300 or 8350 because I believe that's where fuel cut becomes a factor and it will go beyond 8500 for a small amount of time.
Lastly, I don't know where you come up with this nonsense. Show me one single source that shows the federal elise as having a 7800rpm redline. That's where it makes peak power, that's NOT redline. I believe I've pointed out the same mistake on other cars to you before, but seemingly you still don't get it. Some sources list the redline at 8k, others at 8300 or 8350 because I believe that's where fuel cut becomes a factor and it will go beyond 8500 for a small amount of time.
1. It's a significantly smaller engine, therefore it can be placed lower and more centered than a conventional piston engine. Do you realize how far back and low it is in the 8? Its mass is just beyond my right foot! My BMW flat twin is physically bigger! Sometimes it takes a swap to realize it; a friend I knew who ran an MG in solo 2 swapped his 4 for a rotary and it looked like a freak'n tiny tumour off the tranny. Of course it wouldn't benefit the Elise as much as an MG, but to argue that it would have no benefit defies reason.
2. I never said 180 is a dressed weight (I said 260 dressed w/flywheel), 180 is engine only.
3. The Exige redlines at peak power (8000rpm), so I assumed the Elise redlines at its 7800 power peak too.
http://www.carpages.ca/go/roadtest/2...rack_test.aspx
Regardless, the reason we're talking about redlines is obviously we're debating which engines characteristics would best fit a car like the Elise. A renesis seems to pick up power right up to cut off (which I still don't know if its 9300 or 9500) but you can hold it there smoothly all day. In the lotus, as this link suggests, it starts to ebb off at 7000rpm and can only hold its overrev for 1.5 sec. I'll take the rotary thank you.
I don't care that you're not impressed by the renesis, but thinking you can come on here and suggest that it's no better than a 1800cc 4cyl. Toyota needs some better arguements than what you've provided.
What I do agree with what others have said is swapping a renesis with a 2ZZ is not worth the time and effort compared to other mods that they can do. That said, someone has yet to convince me or any other reasonable person that a stock Elise is better off with a 2ZZ vs. a renesis.
Last edited by 9291150; 10-13-2007 at 05:03 PM.
10-13-2007, 05:04 PM
#79
10-13-2007, 05:21 PM
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Your a goof, but I love to argue:
1. It's a significantly smaller engine, therefore it can be placed lower and more centered than a conventional piston engine. Do you realize how far back and low it is in the 8? Its mass is just beyond my right foot! My BMW flat twin is physically bigger! Sometimes it takes a swap to realize it; a friend I knew who ran an MG in solo 2 swapped his 4 for a rotary and it looked like a freak'n tiny tumour off the tranny. Of course it wouldn't benefit the Elise as much as an MG, but to argue that it would have no benefit defies reason.
2. I never said 180 is a dressed weight (I said 260 dressed w/flywheel), 180 is engine only.
3. The Exige redlines at peak power (8000rpm), so I assumed the Elise redlines at its 7800 power peak too.
http://www.carpages.ca/go/roadtest/2...rack_test.aspx
Regardless, the reason we're talking about redlines is obviously we're debating which engine's characteristics would best fit a car like the Elise. A renesis seems to pick up power right up to cut off (which I still don't know if its 9300 or 9500) but you can hold it there smoothly all day. In the lotus, as this link suggests, it starts to ebb off at 7000rpm and can only hold its overrev for 1.5 sec. I'll take the rotary thank you.
I don't care that you're not impressed by the renesis, but thinking you can come on here and suggest that it's no better than a 1800cc 4cyl. Toyota needs some better arguements than what you've provided.
What I do agree with what others have said is swapping a renesis with a 2ZZ is not worth the time and effort compared to other mods that they can do. That said, someone has yet to convince me or any other reasonable person that a stock Elise is better off with a 2ZZ vs. a renesis.
1. It's a significantly smaller engine, therefore it can be placed lower and more centered than a conventional piston engine. Do you realize how far back and low it is in the 8? Its mass is just beyond my right foot! My BMW flat twin is physically bigger! Sometimes it takes a swap to realize it; a friend I knew who ran an MG in solo 2 swapped his 4 for a rotary and it looked like a freak'n tiny tumour off the tranny. Of course it wouldn't benefit the Elise as much as an MG, but to argue that it would have no benefit defies reason.
2. I never said 180 is a dressed weight (I said 260 dressed w/flywheel), 180 is engine only.
3. The Exige redlines at peak power (8000rpm), so I assumed the Elise redlines at its 7800 power peak too.
http://www.carpages.ca/go/roadtest/2...rack_test.aspx
Regardless, the reason we're talking about redlines is obviously we're debating which engine's characteristics would best fit a car like the Elise. A renesis seems to pick up power right up to cut off (which I still don't know if its 9300 or 9500) but you can hold it there smoothly all day. In the lotus, as this link suggests, it starts to ebb off at 7000rpm and can only hold its overrev for 1.5 sec. I'll take the rotary thank you.
I don't care that you're not impressed by the renesis, but thinking you can come on here and suggest that it's no better than a 1800cc 4cyl. Toyota needs some better arguements than what you've provided.
What I do agree with what others have said is swapping a renesis with a 2ZZ is not worth the time and effort compared to other mods that they can do. That said, someone has yet to convince me or any other reasonable person that a stock Elise is better off with a 2ZZ vs. a renesis.
2.) I've come up with several number that lead to the belief that the 2ZZ is lighter than the Renesis, you haven't shown a freaking thing to support your claims.
3.) WTF are you talking about? That's an Exige S and it's peak horsepower is lower in the rev range than the Elise and Exige, yet just like those cars it redlines at 8k. It starts to "eb" because it's a supercharged version of the engine, and that's how supercharges work... At no point was anyone in this thread talking about the supercharged Exige S.
Stop posting, you're making yourself look like an idiot.
.
10-13-2007, 09:46 PM
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Yeah, I’m an idiot for arguing with you; king of all idiots. Guilty!
So let’s wrap this up sparky…
Which is lighter? Neither one of us can prove it, though I’m certain you’re wrong. If you doubt my numbers than search the site.
Which is smaller? No question, the renesis. If you don’t think this makes a difference (or just a tiny difference) then maybe you can tell every automotive or motorcycle engineer who spends every waking moment trying to shave grams or millimeters off their performance engine designs. Yaw, pitch, inertia, CG…my *** says the mighty Ike. Couldn’t feel a difference in a 1900 pound that could tell you the year of the dime it rolled over, eh Ike?
Which is more powerful? Again, the renesis. The 2ZZ may be the only engine that would make the renesis feel torquey.
Which is more reliable? You say the 2ZZ, but I’ve heard of some oil pressure problems at constant high RPMs. On a track day tool like an Elise, a rotary would fare much better.
Which has better fuel economy? The 2ZZ, like that matters on a freak’n $60000.00 sportscar.
Which has a more fitting character for a sportscar? How ‘bout an engine with the smoothness of a V12 and can happily shriek right up to 9500rpm.
So, you tell me which is the better engine for an Elise – the renesis or the 2ZZ? If it’s the 2ZZ, then tell us why. If it’s the renesis, then shut up.
So let’s wrap this up sparky…
Which is lighter? Neither one of us can prove it, though I’m certain you’re wrong. If you doubt my numbers than search the site.
Which is smaller? No question, the renesis. If you don’t think this makes a difference (or just a tiny difference) then maybe you can tell every automotive or motorcycle engineer who spends every waking moment trying to shave grams or millimeters off their performance engine designs. Yaw, pitch, inertia, CG…my *** says the mighty Ike. Couldn’t feel a difference in a 1900 pound that could tell you the year of the dime it rolled over, eh Ike?
Which is more powerful? Again, the renesis. The 2ZZ may be the only engine that would make the renesis feel torquey.
Which is more reliable? You say the 2ZZ, but I’ve heard of some oil pressure problems at constant high RPMs. On a track day tool like an Elise, a rotary would fare much better.
Which has better fuel economy? The 2ZZ, like that matters on a freak’n $60000.00 sportscar.
Which has a more fitting character for a sportscar? How ‘bout an engine with the smoothness of a V12 and can happily shriek right up to 9500rpm.
So, you tell me which is the better engine for an Elise – the renesis or the 2ZZ? If it’s the 2ZZ, then tell us why. If it’s the renesis, then shut up.
10-13-2007, 10:44 PM
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Yeah, I’m an idiot for arguing with you; king of all idiots. Guilty!
So let’s wrap this up sparky…
Which is lighter? Neither one of us can prove it, though I’m certain you’re wrong. If you doubt my numbers than search the site.
Which is smaller? No question, the renesis. If you don’t think this makes a difference (or just a tiny difference) then maybe you can tell every automotive or motorcycle engineer who spends every waking moment trying to shave grams or millimeters off their performance engine designs. Yaw, pitch, inertia, CG…my *** says the mighty Ike. Couldn’t feel a difference in a 1900 pound that could tell you the year of the dime it rolled over, eh Ike?
Which is more powerful? Again, the renesis. The 2ZZ may be the only engine that would make the renesis feel torquey.
Which is more reliable? You say the 2ZZ, but I’ve heard of some oil pressure problems at constant high RPMs. On a track day tool like an Elise, a rotary would fare much better.
Which has better fuel economy? The 2ZZ, like that matters on a freak’n $60000.00 sportscar.
Which has a more fitting character for a sportscar? How ‘bout an engine with the smoothness of a V12 and can happily shriek right up to 9500rpm.
So, you tell me which is the better engine for an Elise – the renesis or the 2ZZ? If it’s the 2ZZ, then tell us why. If it’s the renesis, then shut up.
So let’s wrap this up sparky…
Which is lighter? Neither one of us can prove it, though I’m certain you’re wrong. If you doubt my numbers than search the site.
Which is smaller? No question, the renesis. If you don’t think this makes a difference (or just a tiny difference) then maybe you can tell every automotive or motorcycle engineer who spends every waking moment trying to shave grams or millimeters off their performance engine designs. Yaw, pitch, inertia, CG…my *** says the mighty Ike. Couldn’t feel a difference in a 1900 pound that could tell you the year of the dime it rolled over, eh Ike?
Which is more powerful? Again, the renesis. The 2ZZ may be the only engine that would make the renesis feel torquey.
Which is more reliable? You say the 2ZZ, but I’ve heard of some oil pressure problems at constant high RPMs. On a track day tool like an Elise, a rotary would fare much better.
Which has better fuel economy? The 2ZZ, like that matters on a freak’n $60000.00 sportscar.
Which has a more fitting character for a sportscar? How ‘bout an engine with the smoothness of a V12 and can happily shriek right up to 9500rpm.
So, you tell me which is the better engine for an Elise – the renesis or the 2ZZ? If it’s the 2ZZ, then tell us why. If it’s the renesis, then shut up.
If it makes such a difference then how come Mazda is the only company still even bothering with the rotary engine? If the rotary is so superior why are those engineers doing all that hard work instead of just popping in a rotary? Oh, that's right, because for most people the negatives outweigh the postitives.
Again, the renesis is only more powerful by a small amount. Unless you use Mazda math and then it's a 42hp difference, aka about 10-15whp.
Find me the drama about all the replaced 2ZZ engines in various cars and I'll listen to your argument, until then the 2ZZ is more reliable.
It does matter, there's only about a 10k difference between a fully loaded RX-8 and an Elise. Yes, different price categories, but just because someone had 45k to spend on an Elise doesn't mean they don't appreciate the car getting decent gas mileage. I would imagine they also appreciate the fact that every Toyota tech on the planet knows their engine inside and out.
Since when does a higher redline for an engine indicate it's more fitting for a sportscar?
I think I've already made it quite clear which engine I feel is best for the Elise. The F20C... errr K20A... errr I mean 2ZZGE.
Why, because of all the reasons I already pointed out, and most of all because it's already in the freaking car. A car that is one of the best handling cars in the world, despite it's, according to you, inferior engine.Hell, why don't we stop this nonsense and find out what the Elise/Exige owners would rather have in their cars. Care to place some money on how they feel?
Last edited by Ike; 10-13-2007 at 10:49 PM.
10-13-2007, 11:13 PM
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10-14-2007, 11:39 AM
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I've searched the site, and I was around participating in this discusion the first 5 times it came up. All the info available suggest the 2ZZ is lighter.
If it makes such a difference then how come Mazda is the only company still even bothering with the rotary engine? If the rotary is so superior why are those engineers doing all that hard work instead of just popping in a rotary? Oh, that's right, because for most people the negatives outweigh the postitives.
Again, the renesis is only more powerful by a small amount. Unless you use Mazda math and then it's a 42hp difference, aka about 10-15whp.
Find me the drama about all the replaced 2ZZ engines in various cars and I'll listen to your argument, until then the 2ZZ is more reliable.
It does matter, there's only about a 10k difference between a fully loaded RX-8 and an Elise. Yes, different price categories, but just because someone had 45k to spend on an Elise doesn't mean they don't appreciate the car getting decent gas mileage. I would imagine they also appreciate the fact that every Toyota tech on the planet knows their engine inside and out.
Since when does a higher redline for an engine indicate it's more fitting for a sportscar?
I think I've already made it quite clear which engine I feel is best for the Elise. The F20C... errr K20A... errr I mean 2ZZGE. Why, because of all the reasons I already pointed out, and most of all because it's already in the freaking car. A car that is one of the best handling cars in the world, despite it's, according to you, inferior engine.
Hell, why don't we stop this nonsense and find out what the Elise/Exige owners would rather have in their cars. Care to place some money on how they feel?
If it makes such a difference then how come Mazda is the only company still even bothering with the rotary engine? If the rotary is so superior why are those engineers doing all that hard work instead of just popping in a rotary? Oh, that's right, because for most people the negatives outweigh the postitives.
Again, the renesis is only more powerful by a small amount. Unless you use Mazda math and then it's a 42hp difference, aka about 10-15whp.
Find me the drama about all the replaced 2ZZ engines in various cars and I'll listen to your argument, until then the 2ZZ is more reliable.
It does matter, there's only about a 10k difference between a fully loaded RX-8 and an Elise. Yes, different price categories, but just because someone had 45k to spend on an Elise doesn't mean they don't appreciate the car getting decent gas mileage. I would imagine they also appreciate the fact that every Toyota tech on the planet knows their engine inside and out.
Since when does a higher redline for an engine indicate it's more fitting for a sportscar?
I think I've already made it quite clear which engine I feel is best for the Elise. The F20C... errr K20A... errr I mean 2ZZGE.
Why, because of all the reasons I already pointed out, and most of all because it's already in the freaking car. A car that is one of the best handling cars in the world, despite it's, according to you, inferior engine.Hell, why don't we stop this nonsense and find out what the Elise/Exige owners would rather have in their cars. Care to place some money on how they feel?
2. You may think Mazda shouldn’t bother building the renesis, so what? 90% of people on this site think they should.
3. It’s more like a 20hp average advantage, not small on 1900 pounds. Actually, dyno issues aside, I never seen a stock Elise measured at more the 166hp, but we’ve seen a stock renesis show close to 200hp.
4. Ask Car & Driver about the 2ZZ problems;
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...tus-elise.html
5. Yeah, as if gas mileage is such a popular discussion on Lotus forums.
6. A higher redline, a smoother engine, a more linear power curve is ALWAYS preferred, not to mention more torque and hp – 5 things the renesis has all over the 2ZZ.
7. You not giving the renesis any props doesn’t do much for your credibility, maybe the reason why most here don’t even bother to challenge you...actually why do I care???
Also, remember the Lotus is not without flaws handling wise, actually it was the 2nd hardest car to drive of the eight sportscars that Motortrend recently tested, with no shortage of comments about its twitchy back end. No surprise the Porsches won that tests with their flat sixes…oh, but engine configuration has little to no bearing on handling dynamics, so says you.
8. The rotary actually comes up often on Lotus forums, several suggesting it would be the better engine, though several others suggesting it wouldn’t work including my fav. who said the iron rotary weighs “483 pounds” – proving again that for every reasonably intelligent guy there’s 20 retards in close proximity.
That’s it for me.
10-14-2007, 03:10 PM
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I've searched the site, and I was around participating in this discusion the first 5 times it came up. All the info available suggest the 2ZZ is lighter.
If it makes such a difference then how come Mazda is the only company still even bothering with the rotary engine? If the rotary is so superior why are those engineers doing all that hard work instead of just popping in a rotary? Oh, that's right, because for most people the negatives outweigh the postitives.
Again, the renesis is only more powerful by a small amount. Unless you use Mazda math and then it's a 42hp difference, aka about 10-15whp.
Find me the drama about all the replaced 2ZZ engines in various cars and I'll listen to your argument, until then the 2ZZ is more reliable.
It does matter, there's only about a 10k difference between a fully loaded RX-8 and an Elise. Yes, different price categories, but just because someone had 45k to spend on an Elise doesn't mean they don't appreciate the car getting decent gas mileage. I would imagine they also appreciate the fact that every Toyota tech on the planet knows their engine inside and out.
Since when does a higher redline for an engine indicate it's more fitting for a sportscar?
I think I've already made it quite clear which engine I feel is best for the Elise. The F20C... errr K20A... errr I mean 2ZZGE. Why, because of all the reasons I already pointed out, and most of all because it's already in the freaking car. A car that is one of the best handling cars in the world, despite it's, according to you, inferior engine.
Hell, why don't we stop this nonsense and find out what the Elise/Exige owners would rather have in their cars. Care to place some money on how they feel?
If it makes such a difference then how come Mazda is the only company still even bothering with the rotary engine? If the rotary is so superior why are those engineers doing all that hard work instead of just popping in a rotary? Oh, that's right, because for most people the negatives outweigh the postitives.
Again, the renesis is only more powerful by a small amount. Unless you use Mazda math and then it's a 42hp difference, aka about 10-15whp.
Find me the drama about all the replaced 2ZZ engines in various cars and I'll listen to your argument, until then the 2ZZ is more reliable.
It does matter, there's only about a 10k difference between a fully loaded RX-8 and an Elise. Yes, different price categories, but just because someone had 45k to spend on an Elise doesn't mean they don't appreciate the car getting decent gas mileage. I would imagine they also appreciate the fact that every Toyota tech on the planet knows their engine inside and out.
Since when does a higher redline for an engine indicate it's more fitting for a sportscar?
I think I've already made it quite clear which engine I feel is best for the Elise. The F20C... errr K20A... errr I mean 2ZZGE.
Why, because of all the reasons I already pointed out, and most of all because it's already in the freaking car. A car that is one of the best handling cars in the world, despite it's, according to you, inferior engine.Hell, why don't we stop this nonsense and find out what the Elise/Exige owners would rather have in their cars. Care to place some money on how they feel?
The difference between the 2 engines is drastic whether you like it or not (In favor of the rotary). The 40+ horses are real.
Seal.
10-14-2007, 06:18 PM
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I'm no fan of Mazda's disproven hp figures but apparently you have a problem with the new SAE standards. The current Mazda is proven to make 232 horse flywheel. Have you ever seen the RX8 gearbox or diff out of the chassis? If you have you may inderstand why it makes what it makes, say vs, the S2000 on a chassis dyno. You might try running an Elise with the relatively heavy RX8 wheels and see what happens to it's whp.
The difference between the 2 engines is drastic whether you like it or not (In favor of the rotary). The 40+ horses are real.
Seal.
The difference between the 2 engines is drastic whether you like it or not (In favor of the rotary). The 40+ horses are real.
Seal.
Want to know what's drastic, a drastically good, the fact that the 2ZZ works in the Elise. The Renesis won't without a lot of custom fabrication. It would be VERY difficult to try to mate the Renesis up to the transaxle of the Elise. Also, proper cooling might be a bit of an issue with the configuration of the Elise. But, we'll never know because no one will ever be stupid enough to even try making a Renesis work in an Elise.
P.S. No 903563, that weight is for fully dressed, but dry, just like the 130kg per Mazda.
10-14-2007, 06:28 PM
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1. Poorcollegekid is right, there is no standard way of measuring engine weight. But again, I bet the 253 pounds quoted for a 2ZZ is the undressed dry weight (vs. 180 dry and undressed for the renesis). Neither one of us has proof, don’t act like you do.
2. You may think Mazda shouldn’t bother building the renesis, so what? 90% of people on this site think they should.
3. It’s more like a 20hp average advantage, not small on 1900 pounds. Actually, dyno issues aside, I never seen a stock Elise measured at more the 166hp, but we’ve seen a stock renesis show close to 200hp.
4. Ask Car & Driver about the 2ZZ problems;
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...tus-elise.html
5. Yeah, as if gas mileage is such a popular discussion on Lotus forums.
6. A higher redline, a smoother engine, a more linear power curve is ALWAYS preferred, not to mention more torque and hp – 5 things the renesis has all over the 2ZZ.
7. You not giving the renesis any props doesn’t do much for your credibility, maybe the reason why most here don’t even bother to challenge you...actually why do I care???
Also, remember the Lotus is not without flaws handling wise, actually it was the 2nd hardest car to drive of the eight sportscars that Motortrend recently tested, with no shortage of comments about its twitchy back end. No surprise the Porsches won that tests with their flat sixes…oh, but engine configuration has little to no bearing on handling dynamics, so says you.
8. The rotary actually comes up often on Lotus forums, several suggesting it would be the better engine, though several others suggesting it wouldn’t work including my fav. who said the iron rotary weighs “483 pounds” – proving again that for every reasonably intelligent guy there’s 20 retards in close proximity.
That’s it for me.
2. You may think Mazda shouldn’t bother building the renesis, so what? 90% of people on this site think they should.
3. It’s more like a 20hp average advantage, not small on 1900 pounds. Actually, dyno issues aside, I never seen a stock Elise measured at more the 166hp, but we’ve seen a stock renesis show close to 200hp.
4. Ask Car & Driver about the 2ZZ problems;
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...tus-elise.html
5. Yeah, as if gas mileage is such a popular discussion on Lotus forums.
6. A higher redline, a smoother engine, a more linear power curve is ALWAYS preferred, not to mention more torque and hp – 5 things the renesis has all over the 2ZZ.
7. You not giving the renesis any props doesn’t do much for your credibility, maybe the reason why most here don’t even bother to challenge you...actually why do I care???
Also, remember the Lotus is not without flaws handling wise, actually it was the 2nd hardest car to drive of the eight sportscars that Motortrend recently tested, with no shortage of comments about its twitchy back end. No surprise the Porsches won that tests with their flat sixes…oh, but engine configuration has little to no bearing on handling dynamics, so says you.
8. The rotary actually comes up often on Lotus forums, several suggesting it would be the better engine, though several others suggesting it wouldn’t work including my fav. who said the iron rotary weighs “483 pounds” – proving again that for every reasonably intelligent guy there’s 20 retards in close proximity.
That’s it for me.
3.) Clicky. They range from the low 160s to just over 170 rwhp, for the most part. No big surprises there.
5.) Surprisingly enough, it is. For the most part, it seems that they're quite happy that their cars achieve decent gas mileage relative to others of equivalent performance, even at the track. It's not a huge topic of conversation, but it is something that's mentioned every so often.
7.) One of the Elise's "problems" is that it has a very substantial weight bias to the rear. A Renesis, being more compact than the 2ZZ, would be mounted closer to the rear of the car, increasing this rear bias and increasing the "twitchiness" that you mentioned. This actually has come up over there when engine swaps are discussed, how a slightly larger engine that mounts slightly more forward in the engine bay may be a side benefit of some engine swaps.
The 911 was horrendously twitchy and difficult to drive until more recent iterations, and it is still not quite as stable or predictable as a front or mid-engined car. However, this is not due to engine design or cylinder layout, but rather it's location in the chassis of the vehicle. Even if the car had a I6, or I4/F4, or V8, its handling characteristics would not greatly change assuming engine weight and Cg stayed about the same. Even an unbalanced design like an I4 doesn't run rough enough to affect the motions of a 2000lb vehicle. So, I'm not sure what kind of point you were trying to make with that comment...
8.) Very true, it's debated both here and there, with some people coming down on either side. I do believe that a 13B-REW was quite a porker of an engine (somewhere north of 400lbs), which might be what they're thinking of.
10-14-2007, 06:38 PM
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1.) A completely assembled 2ZZ-GE including the transaxle weighs in at 386 lbs. How much does a 4 cylinder Toyota (or even a Honda/GM) transaxle weigh? Anyone know? Edit: Link.
3.) Clicky. They range from the low 160s to just over 170 rwhp, for the most part. No big surprises there.
5.) Surprisingly enough, it is. For the most part, it seems that they're quite happy that their cars achieve decent gas mileage relative to others of equivalent performance, even at the track. It's not a huge topic of conversation, but it is something that's mentioned every so often.
7.) One of the Elise's "problems" is that it has a very substantial weight bias to the rear. A Renesis, being more compact than the 2ZZ, would be mounted closer to the rear of the car, increasing this rear bias and increasing the "twitchiness" that you mentioned. This actually has come up over there when engine swaps are discussed, how a slightly larger engine that mounts slightly more forward in the engine bay may be a side benefit of some engine swaps.
The 911 was horrendously twitchy and difficult to drive until more recent iterations, and it is still not quite as stable or predictable as a front or mid-engined car. However, this is not due to engine design or cylinder layout, but rather it's location in the chassis of the vehicle. Even if the car had a I6, or I4/F4, or V8, its handling characteristics would not greatly change assuming engine weight and Cg stayed about the same. Even an unbalanced design like an I4 doesn't run rough enough to affect the motions of a 2000lb vehicle. So, I'm not sure what kind of point you were trying to make with that comment...
8.) Very true, it's debated both here and there, with some people coming down on either side. I do believe that a 13B-REW was quite a porker of an engine (somewhere north of 400lbs), which might be what they're thinking of.
3.) Clicky. They range from the low 160s to just over 170 rwhp, for the most part. No big surprises there.
5.) Surprisingly enough, it is. For the most part, it seems that they're quite happy that their cars achieve decent gas mileage relative to others of equivalent performance, even at the track. It's not a huge topic of conversation, but it is something that's mentioned every so often.
7.) One of the Elise's "problems" is that it has a very substantial weight bias to the rear. A Renesis, being more compact than the 2ZZ, would be mounted closer to the rear of the car, increasing this rear bias and increasing the "twitchiness" that you mentioned. This actually has come up over there when engine swaps are discussed, how a slightly larger engine that mounts slightly more forward in the engine bay may be a side benefit of some engine swaps.
The 911 was horrendously twitchy and difficult to drive until more recent iterations, and it is still not quite as stable or predictable as a front or mid-engined car. However, this is not due to engine design or cylinder layout, but rather it's location in the chassis of the vehicle. Even if the car had a I6, or I4/F4, or V8, its handling characteristics would not greatly change assuming engine weight and Cg stayed about the same. Even an unbalanced design like an I4 doesn't run rough enough to affect the motions of a 2000lb vehicle. So, I'm not sure what kind of point you were trying to make with that comment...
8.) Very true, it's debated both here and there, with some people coming down on either side. I do believe that a 13B-REW was quite a porker of an engine (somewhere north of 400lbs), which might be what they're thinking of.
10-14-2007, 06:52 PM
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I have an Elise but instead of changing it over to a Renesis, I opted for putting a turbo on it and not having to change the transaxle and engine.. Hewland transaxles have to have the ring and pinion changed out - at the most - every 3000 miles!
I have a Renesis in my other car, clearly, a much faster car, but at a price. It requires a lot more maintainence but is well worth it.
The Diasio D962-R is so much faster than anything else out there that it's ridiculous. We humble 911 GT3 and RSR's and Radical's are no match. The only cars that are competitive at our home track are a ProMazda and an unrestricted C6-R World Challenge car.
The Renesis is a real work horse and so far has been fairly reliable. I had it gone through by A-Spec and they did a great job. I highly recommend them if you need a good shop. Pineapple Racing is another good engine builder.
The Elise has been reliable once I got it sorted. I'm pushing 10# boost with 325 HP at the crank with a full Carbon Fiber body!
I have a Renesis in my other car, clearly, a much faster car, but at a price. It requires a lot more maintainence but is well worth it.
The Diasio D962-R is so much faster than anything else out there that it's ridiculous. We humble 911 GT3 and RSR's and Radical's are no match. The only cars that are competitive at our home track are a ProMazda and an unrestricted C6-R World Challenge car.
The Renesis is a real work horse and so far has been fairly reliable. I had it gone through by A-Spec and they did a great job. I highly recommend them if you need a good shop. Pineapple Racing is another good engine builder.
The Elise has been reliable once I got it sorted. I'm pushing 10# boost with 325 HP at the crank with a full Carbon Fiber body!
Last edited by dpmdc; 10-14-2007 at 06:56 PM.
10-14-2007, 07:02 PM
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8.) It's clear what most of them really want besides the 2ZZ is the K20A. Yeah, the rotary comes up, but I guarantee you a poll would show that most of them don't want to deal with the rotary and don't think the postitives outweigh the negatives. When the roatary comes up it's usually some noob bringing it up and then the guys that know what they're talking about point out why it's not worth the hassle.
10-14-2007, 07:06 PM
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I have an Elise but instead of changing it over to a Renesis, I opted for putting a turbo on it and not having to change the transaxle and engine.. Hewland transaxles have to have the ring and pinion changed out - at the most - every 3000 miles!
I have a Renesis in my other car, clearly, a much faster car, but at a price. It requires a lot more maintainence but is well worth it.
The Diasio D962-R is so much faster than anything else out there that it's ridiculous. We humble 911 GT3 and RSR's and Radical's are no match. The only cars that are competitive at our home track are a ProMazda and an unrestricted C6-R World Challenge car.
The Renesis is a real work horse and so far has been fairly reliable. I had it gone through by A-Spec and they did a great job. I highly recommend them if you need a good shop. Pineapple Racing is another good engine builder.
The Elise has been reliable once I got it sorted. I'm pushing 10# boost with 325 HP at the crank with a full Carbon Fiber body!
I have a Renesis in my other car, clearly, a much faster car, but at a price. It requires a lot more maintainence but is well worth it.
The Diasio D962-R is so much faster than anything else out there that it's ridiculous. We humble 911 GT3 and RSR's and Radical's are no match. The only cars that are competitive at our home track are a ProMazda and an unrestricted C6-R World Challenge car.
The Renesis is a real work horse and so far has been fairly reliable. I had it gone through by A-Spec and they did a great job. I highly recommend them if you need a good shop. Pineapple Racing is another good engine builder.
The Elise has been reliable once I got it sorted. I'm pushing 10# boost with 325 HP at the crank with a full Carbon Fiber body!
10-14-2007, 07:20 PM
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10-14-2007, 09:09 PM
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I don't have a problem with the SAE testing, nor did I the old testing. The current system is still far from perfect though. If you honestly think on average the F22C is making only 5hp more than the Renesis you're a fool. FYI, the tranny in the RX-8and S2000 are made by the same people and are the same unit. So, that must be one hell of a diff, or maybe it's the CF driveshaft that eats up that 20 extra horsepower
Want to know what's drastic, a drastically good, the fact that the 2ZZ works in the Elise. The Renesis won't without a lot of custom fabrication. It would be VERY difficult to try to mate the Renesis up to the transaxle of the Elise. Also, proper cooling might be a bit of an issue with the configuration of the Elise. But, we'll never know because no one will ever be stupid enough to even try making a Renesis work in an Elise.
P.S. No 903563, that weight is for fully dressed, but dry, just like the 130kg per Mazda.
Want to know what's drastic, a drastically good, the fact that the 2ZZ works in the Elise. The Renesis won't without a lot of custom fabrication. It would be VERY difficult to try to mate the Renesis up to the transaxle of the Elise. Also, proper cooling might be a bit of an issue with the configuration of the Elise. But, we'll never know because no one will ever be stupid enough to even try making a Renesis work in an Elise.
P.S. No 903563, that weight is for fully dressed, but dry, just like the 130kg per Mazda.
You're a rather sharp cat and I would like to retain some respect for you but please keep it technical and understand that you don't have the monopoly on automotive facts.
I'm not your average internet guy and I don't pull my info out of thin air (Or other places).
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10-14-2007, 10:03 PM
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I appreciate you calling me a fool in a discussion of things technical regarding a hypothetical that I could give a damn about (Whether a rotary Elise makes sense) but I have seen more than one Renesis on an engine dyno, have you? I'm aware of the multiple vehicles that Aisin makes gearboxes for, does that make them the same? Even amongst same types there are huge differences. I've dealt with dozens of RX8 diffs and gearboxes and the RX8 diff is considerably bigger than the S2000's.
You're a rather sharp cat and I would like to retain some respect for you but please keep it technical and understand that you don't have the monopoly on automotive facts.
I'm not your average internet guy and I don't pull my info out of thin air (Or other places).
Seal.
You're a rather sharp cat and I would like to retain some respect for you but please keep it technical and understand that you don't have the monopoly on automotive facts.
I'm not your average internet guy and I don't pull my info out of thin air (Or other places).
Seal.
The original premise of this thread was whether or not it would be difficult and was a good idea to do a Renesis swap on an Elise. When it comes down to it there's absolutely no strong argument in favor of the Renesis. It would simply be too costly and too difficult for very minimal benefits. You could have a 400hp 2ZZ in the car for cheaper than it would be to swap in a basic Renesis. There would also be far fewer concerns due to the cooling and transaxle issues. It would be cheaper to convert the Elise to FWD and put the Renesis in it. That would be loads of fun...
10-14-2007, 11:06 PM
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C'mon, don't get all dramatic on me. I wasn't directly calling you a fool, I was just strongly making my point, but perhaps I snapped back as if I were talking to my buddy 9237356 and for that I'm sorry. The fact remains that the gearbox is the same other than a slight gear ratio difference. There's no way in hell the the diff leeches that much horsepower compared to a S2K diff. A strong argument could be made that the RX-8 should have less parasitic loss due to the CF driveshaft as well, so even if the diff is less efficient it's probably a wash.
The original premise of this thread was whether or not it would be difficult and was a good idea to do a Renesis swap on an Elise. When it comes down to it there's absolutely no strong argument in favor of the Renesis. It would simply be too costly and too difficult for very minimal benefits. You could have a 400hp 2ZZ in the car for cheaper than it would be to swap in a basic Renesis. There would also be far fewer concerns due to the cooling and transaxle issues. It would be cheaper to convert the Elise to FWD and put the Renesis in it. That would be loads of fun...
The original premise of this thread was whether or not it would be difficult and was a good idea to do a Renesis swap on an Elise. When it comes down to it there's absolutely no strong argument in favor of the Renesis. It would simply be too costly and too difficult for very minimal benefits. You could have a 400hp 2ZZ in the car for cheaper than it would be to swap in a basic Renesis. There would also be far fewer concerns due to the cooling and transaxle issues. It would be cheaper to convert the Elise to FWD and put the Renesis in it. That would be loads of fun...
Seal.
10-15-2007, 09:32 AM
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1.)
7.) One of the Elise's "problems" is that it has a very substantial weight bias to the rear. A Renesis, being more compact than the 2ZZ, would be mounted closer to the rear of the car, increasing this rear bias and increasing the "twitchiness" that you mentioned. This actually has come up over there when engine swaps are discussed, how a slightly larger engine that mounts slightly more forward in the engine bay may be a side benefit of some engine swaps.
The 911 was horrendously twitchy and difficult to drive until more recent iterations, and it is still not quite as stable or predictable as a front or mid-engined car. However, this is not due to engine design or cylinder layout, but rather it's location in the chassis of the vehicle. Even if the car had a I6, or I4/F4, or V8, its handling characteristics would not greatly change assuming engine weight and Cg stayed about the same. Even an unbalanced design like an I4 doesn't run rough enough to affect the motions of a 2000lb vehicle. So, I'm not sure what kind of point you were trying to make with that comment...
7.) One of the Elise's "problems" is that it has a very substantial weight bias to the rear. A Renesis, being more compact than the 2ZZ, would be mounted closer to the rear of the car, increasing this rear bias and increasing the "twitchiness" that you mentioned. This actually has come up over there when engine swaps are discussed, how a slightly larger engine that mounts slightly more forward in the engine bay may be a side benefit of some engine swaps.
The 911 was horrendously twitchy and difficult to drive until more recent iterations, and it is still not quite as stable or predictable as a front or mid-engined car. However, this is not due to engine design or cylinder layout, but rather it's location in the chassis of the vehicle. Even if the car had a I6, or I4/F4, or V8, its handling characteristics would not greatly change assuming engine weight and Cg stayed about the same. Even an unbalanced design like an I4 doesn't run rough enough to affect the motions of a 2000lb vehicle. So, I'm not sure what kind of point you were trying to make with that comment...
Point 2: No question the placement of an engine has the most direct correlation to the handling of a vehicle, as does a million other things. But so does its configuration, a 911 wouldn’t be such a great handling car with a rear engine layout if it were a V8, which was my point. My BMW flat twin bike is a perfect example, a heavy bike that handles beautifully. If I swaped a conventional V-twin or upright 4, it would be a pig.
Your other point: I think I get what you were getting at with the forces different engines can extract on a chassis - the same forces that will get a 600cc bike to always turn in better than 1000cc, even if they weighed the same and had identical chassis specs. How this all affects car engines and handling, I don’t think anyone here can talk to it with any merit.