mushkid

iTrader: (6)

even if a new RX isn't released, someone will find a way to make the Renny badass, and be awesomely tuned.

it could be Jeff (More refined tune), BHR, Racing beat, Turblown( already did lol) ... someone will find an awesome way to make people believe in the Renny again, and start using it in more applications.

I'm impressed on how much HP was squeezed out of the renny without TT'S

and i thank the individuals i mentioned for all the awesome work that they have put, to make the most out of the renny.

Speed_8

yeah if you mean low power and mpg and had pistons then yeah FAIL.. personally you know as much as teh rest of us whats coming.. alot of companies have products that really do not make them money and they use them to make money on other products.. if anyone ever mentions rotary all they think of is mazda.. when the rx8 gets reviewed and people like it they go to the dealer and recommend another car and so on.. the rotary will not die. i'll only get better.. they killed it for a few years back in 97 and it came back. 9k has a point why would mazda waste money and travel promoting stuff if they will not build it. If you think they are dumb for doing that, then i guess they are stupid enough to build another rotary.. so yey for us. its unique they will continue it...

77mjd

I'm in the same boat. I'm ready to move on/upgrade from my '04 that I bought new. Probably deciding between the 3.8 Genesis Coupe and the 370z. I would have hoped a new rotary car would have been here by now, but obviously it isn't and probably won't be anytime soon. Hopefully in a few years we will have something concrete from Mazda as to what is happening and I can come back to the rotary.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I am willing to bet that everyone with this sentiment also believes in god or some version of religion.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

you dont believe in God Jeff?

I can understand that. I too had doubts at one time, but I had an "experience" that left no doubt for me. One day I hope you too will have one.
Dont get me wrong--I dont mean to preach or try to convince anyone.
Now again to me, religion and God are two complete different things. IMHO there is too much man in religion.

Sorry for the highjack.

Car companies have to sell cars. They do not have a totally logical business plan. Passion has to be part of it as well as an image. Mazda's image in America consists of the Miata, the rotary and mazdaspeed. The mazdaspeed 3 is starting to be noticed also. Everything else--although they sell well and are good cars are just out there.
Passion is a big driving force in the motor vehicle industry. Look at Fords decision in bring in Carol Shelby and look at Harley Davidson's come back. Passion driven goals are the ones that will have a better than average chance of succeeding.
Mazda definitely has a passion for the rotary

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Of course not.

Any experience that might cause one to abandon reason to such a great extent is one to be avoided.

I think you are confusing "passion" on the part of the manufacturer and passion on the part of the customer.

Giving the impression that the product is subsumed with passion so that the customer's passions would seem to be aligned with the product is purely shrewd capitalism at its finest.

Flashwing

Anyone who has worked on any product understands the moment you become emotionally attached to it then you lose your competitive edge. Working for a social media company for a short time I saw graduate students who were brought to tears when projects they tried to bring to reality were shot down by the executive staff because the money simply wasn't there.

I have no doubt there are people within Mazda that have passion and a love of the rotary engine but these are not the people driving market decisions. If they were they would drive the company right into the ground. They have to be rational about the products they put their resources behind. The Miata is a huge seller, always has been as well as the Mazda 3. Realize the Mazda 3 just had I believe the 3 millionth car produced and it's been around maybe a decade. The Rotary engine has been around 4 times that long and has produced 1/3 of the same amount. Which would you support if your job is to turn a profit?

All I can say is don't discount the crazy factor. I think Mazda was nuts for making the RX8 in the first place because it was a huge long shot. The next generation would be a hail mary to save a niche of a niche market.

I'd say don't count on it but it would be cool to see it happen.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

reason is always related to the reality the person accepts. Thats cool, but i have always acknowledged that there are more than one reality. Just ask my left brain to confirm.

The rotary in America has never been about profit. Although profit is nice, there actually is more to a successful business than just profit.

Flashwing

There are other dynamics but the bottom line is unless you can make enough to stay in business then no amount of passion will pay the bills or keep the lights on.

CrazyJek

All this talk about non profiting from a rotary powered sports car...

Didnt Mazda sell more RX8's then any of the RX7's? To me that sounds like an improvement in sales.. The RX8 didnt even have a specific market to cater to.

Of course if im wrong then that whole argument is useless. But even then, every rotary engine is a huge improvement over the previous.




The Japs are crazy. History shows it. I firmly believe they will produce another rotary car. Maybe not right away... but they will. I wont take that bet MM... but there is definitely a good chance you will see another car with the heart of a new rotor.

You dont need to believe in God to have faith.

Flashwing

They might have but that was due to a more competitive pricing for the RX8 where as the FD was priced to compete with Porsche.

That being said, the thousands or perhaps 10,000+ engine replacements that have been done because of the recall was sure to destroy any profitability for Mazda and tarnish the reputation of the motor for future builds.

So Mazda not only would have to produce something that competes with today's market expectations but do it with a smile while saying "This time it will be different..."

CrazyJek

Double post FTL

CrazyJek

I do see your point. The first few years of the RX8 really did kind of "screw" things up a bit.



But in terms of profit... not every car has to be a Mazda 3 that sells millions. Their line up of SKY cars will be huge profit for them. Mazda will need (or at least should have) a sports car in a specific category other then the MX-5... one that has the heart of a rotor. If it dont generate a ton of money then so what... if it covers R&D costs, manufacture costs... then what's the problem? People WILL buy it and Mazda WILL profit. The only problem right now is R&D cuz of emissions and that ******* earthquake.

77mjd

With the new V-6 Mustang, Camaro and the Genesis Coupe 3.8, the bar has now been set for what people are going to be looking for in an affordable sports car. 300hp and near 30mpg highway. That's the new standard weather you like it or not. Mazda could probably get away with less hp given they would likely produce the lightest car of the bunch, but they have to figure out the mpg issue and I'd be willing to bet that is the biggest remaining sticking point to move this thing forward.

CrazyJek

The MPG is not the biggest sticking point. Its the damn emissions. Its kinda pissing me off. They make such a huge deal about cars and the exhaust and pollution... yet cars cause the least amount of global pollution... Its big factories and several other things that cause most of the pollution.

I guarantee the 16X (whether its used or not) could put out 28mpg highway and 20+/- 2mpg city right now... on a car weighing 3k pounds. Stick it in a lighter car and.. well.. u know..

Are those real time numbers? Most likely not. But there are many cars out there that get similar numbers like Audi, VW, BMW, Mercedes... etc... In my opinion, 20/28 city/highway is awesome.

They need it to pass emissions, find a market to cater to, build a body, figure out the costs and what to put in it, then find a price hopefully within the 30k range.

Putting it on the MX-5 platform will most likely drop manufacturing costs making the car potentially cheaper.

All in due time. Hopefully.

reddozen

iTrader: (1)

I'm going to have to join the camp of "it will happen at some point". People have been preaching the death of rotary engines since the 80's, which is as long as I have been alive, and they're still being produced. The day Mazda publicly renounces all future rotary development is the last day I consider them for a new car purchase.

I'm with CrazyJek. If they can do it, and at least break even on the investment, they will do it, because it's part of Mazda's image.

j_tso

There were over 400,000 first gen RX-7s sold and that was because they filled a gap in the market for an affordable 2-seater, light weight coupe. Kinda like there is now- Nissan is stalling on a new Silvia and we're waiting for the FT-86. Only MX-5 fits the gap, but some people don't want a convertible and it has the "chick car" stigma all the retards can't get over.

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

Exactly. Of course passion for a product and a marketing 'hook' (such as the "halo" RX-8) are important, but the bottom line is the bottom line.

BHR is passionate about their products and as any good company has probably considered some nifty products that ultimately didn't pass the ROI test.

btw: I hold a patent on an elegant high altitude RF repeater for [principally Gov't] telecomm, but the ROI numbers just weren't there. Sometimes you just have to move on.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Not sure if it's still true, but Google acknowledged publicly that it held and managed YouTube even though it had a running net loss year after year.

I'm sure they believe they can turn it to a profit at some point, or maybe it's that they have some other goal that they see the cost as justifiable. But it's an example of things a business may do willingly that don't turn a profit.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Do yall think GM is making a profit on the Corvette? Did Ford make a profit on the GT?
Does Chrysler make a profit on the Prowler or the Viper? Do you think the Mazda Mazdaspeed program makes a profit? So on and so forth.
Limited production cars never make a profit, but the exposure that these cars bring to the company is measured in more than dollars. The rotory engine is a big part of Mazda and is the only manufactor of the automotive rotary IN THE WORLD.

MPG--heck with my little taller gearing (09 trans in the S1 chassis)my supercharged approx 300rwhp RX8 gets 25 mpg on the interstate running the a/c, stero and lights. Around town driving within the law I can get 16-17mpg. Thats as good as a lot of performance cars out there.
Emissions is needed but not to the extent the damn Government says. Its just another way business can make money.

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

I don't think anyone's arguing that a company can't have a non-profitable asset in its overall portfolio, provided that asset does indeed attract customers to the brand at large and thereby facilitate an overall profit. Unfortunately the RX-8 is no longer competitive in its niche and therefore no longer the 'halo' car needed. Just the fact that it's a rotary isn't enough.

Here's hoping the 16X can see the light of day, even if in a modified Miata chassis.

btw: let's not forget that Audi, et all are looking at a single rotor as a hybrid power generator in its future electric vehicles.

mushkid

iTrader: (6)

i can't find the interview, where the Mazda rep admits that "the rotary doesn't bring in that much money, but it's their signature car; and as long as they are around the rotary will be the heart of their company".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cST7atvUrrw

(i know it's a repost)

i would actually take that bet MM, but i would like to wait a bit after it comes out; just to avoid any issues like the rx8, i should be done with my 20b FB project by then.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

most of the people with a 8 never had any experience with the older gen Rotary engines.

I know I did.

for the past 2 years (almost 3) I've been researching the FC I got and I found a lot of history about it (and everything Rotary engine related)

This is NOT the first time Mazda facing Emission problems, but every single time Mazda was be able to figure "something" out, sometimes it might be something really silly.

like the early Thermo Reactor. That thing weights like 5 tons (its at least 50 lbs), it's a nice way to waste gas, it's a huge heating bomb in the engine bay, it robs all the hp, but from an pollution control point of view it works perfectly fine.

redesigning the basic Rotor Geometry, width, weight reduction, etc. oh speaking of weight reduction, if you look at a rotor that has been cut in 1/2 and compare it to the older version. u be like wow they went this far to try to save another 0.1 lbs of weight.

like CrazyJek said, the Japanese are crazy sometimes, so crazy that you won't even believe it. but when it comes to Rotary Engine, you better believe it. This is how Side Exhaust port/13B-MSP was born in the first place.

I'm in the bet, cuz I really have nothing to lose LOL !

RX"whatever" comes out, I buy it. no problem
If its dead, I still need to buy a car. so LOL

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Somewhere else, I found a discussion about the mentality of 'east' vs 'west' (geopolitically that is).

The 'west' mentality is very very heavily focused on logic and reason for why they do something.

However, the 'east' mentality is very much based on 'reasonableness', rather than logic. They have logic, don't get me wrong, but it's a different mind set that heavily affects everything they do, from the bottom of any structure to the top. They have a noticablely heavier trend of mentality this way.

When you take that and add it to Mazda's own history, THAT'S where the possibility exists, and is real. You can't discount Mazda's own history unless you believe that the Japanese people only marginal regard at best for their history, their ancestors, tradition, and legacy. Which is a really far stretch. History and legacy is ingrained in their culture.

And Mazda's history of being the upstart, the outsider, the rebel, even from the very first Mr. Mazda. They cling to that. Call it stupidity if you want, but calling it stupidity won't change it.

Economics is economics. You have to make money to survive. But that doesn't mean that every product has to be a money maker, and that doesn't mean that every corporate mentality or structure is the same in every culture of the world.

MM's strict and unbending view of business is fine and acceptable. Would fit right in with any US financial institution. But that doesn't make it accurate for every company in the world. There ARE exceptions. Granted, most exceptions fall by the wayside and die. But there are exceptions to that rule too...

Look at Chik Fil A. No company business on sundays. No locations opened on Sunday. That is at least a profit cut of 1/7th, if not more. But they stick to it, and for reasons that don't have any place in MM's reasoning. They are still surviving, and thriving though.

And then there is classifications of costs. I personally wouldn't be surprised if the upper corporate structure of Mazda considered the rotary development and program in the same cost bucket as the marketing. By itself, a net loss, but is used to attract people to a company and products that do make them money.

There are alot of ways to come up with a reason on why Mazda will still develop the rotary. There are also alot of ways to show why they shouldn't. Both sets of reasons have been in existence since they started this whole spinning triangle thing. The simple fact that they still have, even in face of why they shouldn't, tells me that they aren't giving up now.

Until Mazda releases an official company statement that they will no longer develop or produce a rotary, no amount of argument against it will make be believe that it is truly done.

I don't take offense at someone calling me an idiot for it, but it also won't change my mind.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Mazda has to operate by world rules, not Japanese rules.
They sell cars to a world market.
The invest in projects with money from other companies around the world.

The Corvette is profitable. The Prowler and the Viper were "break-even" projects. Are you saying a $60k - $90k RX-x is a realistic goal? How about a $200k "LFA style" RX-7?

Chik-fil-A's business model is predicated on religious beliefs. So is the general retail model in this country that "respects the sabbath", for that matter. So, Sunday is traditionally the slowest day for all fast-food retailers, anyway.

So, I suppose that if you want to postulate that a company which is already at the very edge of profitability should, for "religious" reasons, continue to dedicate resources to a losing endeavor, then I guess I can't argue with that sort of complete irrationality.

But, I can assure you that the RX-8 was NOT borne out of such stupidity. It was allowed to see the light of day because of some very calculated risks based on the market at the time.
That market opportunity is long gone.