NO RX-9, slight chance for RX-7
07-12-2011, 03:02 PM
#227
I agree with you mm, finacial stuff aside,
I was just stating that a car manufacture can sell an eco box and a supercar just fine.
I didnt relize mazda made such little profit, are car sales figures availible?
mazda and honda dont have a solid truck line up, to contribute like the others.
I was just stating that a car manufacture can sell an eco box and a supercar just fine.
I didnt relize mazda made such little profit, are car sales figures availible?
mazda and honda dont have a solid truck line up, to contribute like the others.
07-12-2011, 03:08 PM
#228
This has always been the problem for Mazda, to convince Ford so they are allowed to build another rotary. If they can convince them that they need to get status as a Real Serious Sports Car Builder and not the whimpy performance compared with Porsche whereas in the early 80's Rx-3 and Rx-7's smoked Porsches and others so bad they had to penalize them with restrictions and even sanctioned to race at all.
Now if it's a matter of a new rotary with less cost and of not take sales away from Ford Mustang,
they could get rid of the back doors of the Rx-8, lighten the car as much as possible, try to flow the exhaust flow an extra HP, a big front spoiler, a retro look to revive it into the New Rx-3 with an optional Rx-3 SP Model (famous in 1977-78) to have the 16X version currently in development, as the car already has a similar resemblance to the 1973 Rx-3.
And for the new Rx-7, then add 5 inches to the wheelbase of the new Miata in development for 2013 -which is announced to be bigger and lighter- with a wide Body Kit, all glass hatch and 1st Gen Rx-7 retro look with the Renesis engine. Then add a GSL-SE Edition with the newly developed 300HP 16X engine.
This formula worked for the Camaro, was an absolute success for the Mustang, Same hit with the Beetle, Mini, and others.
Then get at least one Furai available for purchase as a production exotic with an exorbitant price just for the eccentric and unveil it in strategically located dealers on a customer appreciation events. This will give high recognition to Mazda as a serious sport car, like putting a WOW! on the ZOOM ZOOM!
Now if it's a matter of a new rotary with less cost and of not take sales away from Ford Mustang,
they could get rid of the back doors of the Rx-8, lighten the car as much as possible, try to flow the exhaust flow an extra HP, a big front spoiler, a retro look to revive it into the New Rx-3 with an optional Rx-3 SP Model (famous in 1977-78) to have the 16X version currently in development, as the car already has a similar resemblance to the 1973 Rx-3.
And for the new Rx-7, then add 5 inches to the wheelbase of the new Miata in development for 2013 -which is announced to be bigger and lighter- with a wide Body Kit, all glass hatch and 1st Gen Rx-7 retro look with the Renesis engine. Then add a GSL-SE Edition with the newly developed 300HP 16X engine.
This formula worked for the Camaro, was an absolute success for the Mustang, Same hit with the Beetle, Mini, and others.
Then get at least one Furai available for purchase as a production exotic with an exorbitant price just for the eccentric and unveil it in strategically located dealers on a customer appreciation events. This will give high recognition to Mazda as a serious sport car, like putting a WOW! on the ZOOM ZOOM!
07-12-2011, 03:39 PM
#230
Quite depressing for rotary engine lovers. Base on your answers, you guys are certain that: Mazda will not have operating income to produce any more rotary sport cars.
The only super car Mazda will ever have in the future is the Mazdaspeed Miata.
The Miata is a Serious sport car and putting a rotary engine on it is a mistake.
The Rx-3, Rx-7 and the rotary engine will never come back once they stop the Rx-8 in 2012 and they will just be a piece of history, because the retro formula will not work for Mazda.
I had owned 2 Rx-3's, 22 1st gen Rx-7, 25 2nd Gen Rx-7's, 15 3rd Gen Rx-7, 6 Miata's and was in the process of build an Rx-8 with a Hybrid Ren/13B on it. I'm still going to do it, because I have a passion for these cars.
If Mazda does bring the Rx-7 or Rx-3 back, I will be lining up for one with the 16X engine on it, to modify it as well.
Maybe what it needs to happen it that Mazda let go the Rotary rights so some other company with plenty of cash might take over rotary to a new dimmension.
The only super car Mazda will ever have in the future is the Mazdaspeed Miata.
The Miata is a Serious sport car and putting a rotary engine on it is a mistake.
The Rx-3, Rx-7 and the rotary engine will never come back once they stop the Rx-8 in 2012 and they will just be a piece of history, because the retro formula will not work for Mazda.
I had owned 2 Rx-3's, 22 1st gen Rx-7, 25 2nd Gen Rx-7's, 15 3rd Gen Rx-7, 6 Miata's and was in the process of build an Rx-8 with a Hybrid Ren/13B on it. I'm still going to do it, because I have a passion for these cars.
If Mazda does bring the Rx-7 or Rx-3 back, I will be lining up for one with the 16X engine on it, to modify it as well.
Maybe what it needs to happen it that Mazda let go the Rotary rights so some other company with plenty of cash might take over rotary to a new dimmension.
07-12-2011, 10:45 PM
#231
Super Moderator
So what does that tell you about the "marketing expertise" at MNAO...
Every other Mazda nation has been going gangbusters 'sales wise' except USA.
Even Mexico (very new) has a higher Mazda vehicle park % than the US.
Having said that North and South America are distributed by MNAO.
Exclusive (sole) stand alone Dealerships are part of the key...
FFS, how do you get retail brand loyalty when you have mechanics working on brand new Mazda's, VW's, Fords and any other marque under the same dealership roof.
Let alone being Tech savvy on just one brand.
Every other Mazda nation has been going gangbusters 'sales wise' except USA.
Even Mexico (very new) has a higher Mazda vehicle park % than the US.
Having said that North and South America are distributed by MNAO.
Exclusive (sole) stand alone Dealerships are part of the key...
FFS, how do you get retail brand loyalty when you have mechanics working on brand new Mazda's, VW's, Fords and any other marque under the same dealership roof.
Let alone being Tech savvy on just one brand.
07-12-2011, 10:55 PM
#232
Super Moderator
Scion, Mitsubishi and Mazda top brands among Gen Y buyers
Scion, Mitsubishi and Mazda top brands among Gen Y buyers
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/12/s...-gen-y-buyers/
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/07/12/s...-gen-y-buyers/
07-13-2011, 03:09 AM
#234
Take every rotary enthusiast you know, have heard about or imagined existed. Now, take that list and cross off all the people that you know are not in the position to purchase a brand new car right now.
Pretty f-ing short list, isn't it?
Even if you multiply that list by 50, it still isn't enough reason to lure a manufacturer into diverting funds from known money-making platforms into one that will destroy the CAFE numbers, skew the fleet EPA ratings, skew the collision and resale value numbers, screw-up the Edmunds and CR fleet reliability ratings and generally only lose money in an economy where there is no longer any serious brand loyalty, especially from new-car-buying individuals.
Rotary car owners want old cars. They want cheap cars. They want magic cars.
But they wont drop cash on new cars in the volume that makes it practical for a manufacturer - especially in the contemporary market where a specialty sports car must have near-30 MPG and over 300 HP while being essentially ZLEV and under $30k.
Pretty f-ing short list, isn't it?
Even if you multiply that list by 50, it still isn't enough reason to lure a manufacturer into diverting funds from known money-making platforms into one that will destroy the CAFE numbers, skew the fleet EPA ratings, skew the collision and resale value numbers, screw-up the Edmunds and CR fleet reliability ratings and generally only lose money in an economy where there is no longer any serious brand loyalty, especially from new-car-buying individuals.
Rotary car owners want old cars. They want cheap cars. They want magic cars.
But they wont drop cash on new cars in the volume that makes it practical for a manufacturer - especially in the contemporary market where a specialty sports car must have near-30 MPG and over 300 HP while being essentially ZLEV and under $30k.
07-14-2011, 07:46 AM
#236
Originally Posted by MazdaManiac
Take every rotary enthusiast you know, have heard about or imagined existed. Now, take that list and cross off all the people that you know are not in the position to purchase a brand new car right now.
Take every rotary enthusiast you know, have heard about or imagined existed. Now, take that list and cross off all the people that you know are not in the position to purchase a brand new car right now.
When I bought my first 3rd Gen Rx-7 in 1994 I got compliments every way I go... girls, guys, cops, firemen, doctors.... It was nice to go over the car wash and receive compliments from a brand new Porsche 911 Owner. Then I went ti the Pettit Racing events and notice some of the new Rx-7 owners were Porsche owners, some BMW, some Nissan and a few Mazda pre-owners.
Can somebody explain me exactly how is that the retro formula does not work for Mazda while it
does work for everybody else? ie..Ford Fiesta(back since 1981), VW Rabbit & Beetle, Mini, etc.
It woul be nice if some company, maybe Tada motors will put some interest in Mazda and revive the rotary again.
07-14-2011, 08:26 AM
#237
Quite negativa statement. I was a Toyota Guy, then turn into Nissan, but ended with Rotaries. A new Rotary buyer does not need to Pre-own a Mazda to be a prospective buyer.
When I bought my first 3rd Gen Rx-7 in 1994 I got compliments every way I go... girls, guys, cops, firemen, doctors.... It was nice to go over the car wash and receive compliments from a brand new Porsche 911 Owner. Then I went ti the Pettit Racing events and notice some of the new Rx-7 owners were Porsche owners, some BMW, some Nissan and a few Mazda pre-owners.
Can somebody explain me exactly how is that the retro formula does not work for Mazda while it
does work for everybody else? ie..Ford Fiesta(back since 1981), VW Rabbit & Beetle, Mini, etc.
It woul be nice if some company, maybe Tada motors will put some interest in Mazda and revive the rotary again.
When I bought my first 3rd Gen Rx-7 in 1994 I got compliments every way I go... girls, guys, cops, firemen, doctors.... It was nice to go over the car wash and receive compliments from a brand new Porsche 911 Owner. Then I went ti the Pettit Racing events and notice some of the new Rx-7 owners were Porsche owners, some BMW, some Nissan and a few Mazda pre-owners.
Can somebody explain me exactly how is that the retro formula does not work for Mazda while it
does work for everybody else? ie..Ford Fiesta(back since 1981), VW Rabbit & Beetle, Mini, etc.
It woul be nice if some company, maybe Tada motors will put some interest in Mazda and revive the rotary again.
As for the retro thing; A brand would have to be VERY popular with a VERY popular model from the past to create a retro version of a former model. If the Miata ever goes away for example, Mazda could effectively start it up again and even make the new one copy former designs to a greater extent than they do today. I love RX-2s and RX-3s but it does not begin to make financial sense to make retro versions of them.
I pray 'Tata' Motors does not buy Mazda even though they are doing okay with Jaguar.
Paul.
07-14-2011, 08:49 AM
#238
i dont understand why it is so hard for some people to understand that a small lightweight rwd sports car (with SOME functionally--like a hatchback or small rear seats like the 911) would not sale enough to make a profit. Mazda's present focus of lightweight--fits right into the plan.
The S2 engine design is on the right track for dependability and the 16X may even be better?
Mazda would be foolish not to offer the 16X in a miata like car. My personnel belief is they want too, but the only stumbling block I can see is emissions? I dont know enough about that to speak about it.
The S2 engine design is on the right track for dependability and the 16X may even be better?
Mazda would be foolish not to offer the 16X in a miata like car. My personnel belief is they want too, but the only stumbling block I can see is emissions? I dont know enough about that to speak about it.
07-14-2011, 08:55 AM
#239
Emissions and HP figures.
We're used to momentum cars, the general public isn't. Many, many, many and many more customers are interested in "numbers", not "mere" performance.
A 500hp gas guzzling rustang will sell more than a 280rwhp powered rotary there,Same goes for any ///M or Rs car here.
We're used to momentum cars, the general public isn't. Many, many, many and many more customers are interested in "numbers", not "mere" performance.
A 500hp gas guzzling rustang will sell more than a 280rwhp powered rotary there,Same goes for any ///M or Rs car here.
07-14-2011, 08:58 AM
#240
i dont understand why it is so hard for some people to understand that a small lightweight rwd sports car (with SOME functionally--like a hatchback or small rear seats like the 911) would not sale enough to make a profit. Mazda's present focus of lightweight--fits right into the plan.
The S2 engine design is on the right track for dependability and the 16X may even be better?
Mazda would be foolish not to offer the 16X in a miata like car. My personnel belief is they want too, but the only stumbling block I can see is emissions? I dont know enough about that to speak about it.
The S2 engine design is on the right track for dependability and the 16X may even be better?
Mazda would be foolish not to offer the 16X in a miata like car. My personnel belief is they want too, but the only stumbling block I can see is emissions? I dont know enough about that to speak about it.
Slow down. You're typing too fast.
Paul.
07-14-2011, 09:10 AM
#241
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I got it. OD is having trouble understanding why the people in the thread fail to see that the combination works, and will work.
I also think that when people talk about "people want power numbers", they are only talking about people that frequent forum boards. But that isn't even a large percentage of the buying pool. Look at the Miata. I'd bet that over half of the Miata owners, if not closer to 75%, have never considered power as a statistic of value for their purchase. Just happy with a little convertible to drive around in.
THIS is why the formula would work. Not because of the enthusiasts, but because 99% of cars sold in the world are less than 200hp. Non-enthusiasts don't buy cars for power, and non-enthusiasts make up the large majority of RX-8 and Miata buyers. Buying the car has turned many many many of these into enthusiasts, but they weren't at purchase, and that is the key point.
07-14-2011, 12:13 PM
#242
[QUOTE]OD says:
small lightweight rwd sports car (with SOME functionally--like a hatchback or small rear seats like the 911) would not sale enough to make a profit. [/[QUOTE]
Porsche 2010 sales:
Boxter = 2,177.
911 = 2,735
source : http://press.porsche.com/news/release.php?id=602
small lightweight rwd sports car (with SOME functionally--like a hatchback or small rear seats like the 911) would not sale enough to make a profit. [/[QUOTE]
Porsche 2010 sales:
Boxter = 2,177.
911 = 2,735
source : http://press.porsche.com/news/release.php?id=602
07-14-2011, 12:53 PM
#246
Equally well said. The Cayman/Boxter as mid-engine 2-seaters could easily be superior to the 911, but Porsche purposely underpowers them so as not to compete with their flagship 911 (and its ludicrous small back seats and antiquated engine placement).
As the Top Gear guys said, would you [a car guy] buy a Porsche that you knew was purposely under-designed?
To bring this discussion back to the OP's intended, it just shows that even Porsche, who tauts their "Excellence", makes some inane [to me] marketing decisions.
As the Top Gear guys said, would you [a car guy] buy a Porsche that you knew was purposely under-designed?
To bring this discussion back to the OP's intended, it just shows that even Porsche, who tauts their "Excellence", makes some inane [to me] marketing decisions.
Last edited by Huey52; 07-14-2011 at 01:03 PM.
07-14-2011, 01:05 PM
#247
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I think that most people that buy a car, buy a car for what it IS. They do not buy a car for what it ISN'T
The reason people buy a Miata isn't because it isn't powerful enough. It isn't because it isn't roomy enough. It isn't because it isn't good enough at hauling stuff around.
Manufacturers target a market when they make the vehicle, a market that will buy a car for what it IS. If people want the high horsepower sports cars or muscle cars, they are going to go buy those for what they are. But to ignore that there is a gap between 99% of cars that exist (that are under 200hp), and 300hp+ sports cars, is to ignore a market that exists and that a profit can be made off of.
I don't know where I'm going with that. My fingers led me down the path. My brain might catch up.
The reason people buy a Miata isn't because it isn't powerful enough. It isn't because it isn't roomy enough. It isn't because it isn't good enough at hauling stuff around.
Manufacturers target a market when they make the vehicle, a market that will buy a car for what it IS. If people want the high horsepower sports cars or muscle cars, they are going to go buy those for what they are. But to ignore that there is a gap between 99% of cars that exist (that are under 200hp), and 300hp+ sports cars, is to ignore a market that exists and that a profit can be made off of.
I don't know where I'm going with that. My fingers led me down the path. My brain might catch up.
07-14-2011, 01:25 PM
#248
Total 2010 US Miata sales for the US were approximately 6400 units. However you have to sell at least 3 times more Miatas to generate the revenue of the 911 sold. That means Miata got short for 19,200 units.
Maserati sold 1,717 Gran Turismos.... That equals 38,400 Miatas.
Maserati sold 1,717 Gran Turismos.... That equals 38,400 Miatas.
07-14-2011, 02:04 PM
#250
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SaveTheRotary, I agree with your general purpose and goal, but you come up with the strangest methods of trying to advocate it. Most of what you post has plenty of incorrect or misinterpreted information, and it isn't helping your cause at all.
For example, units * Sale price isn't really an important number. Sure, it's useful, but only to get to a more important number, the profit.
For example, What if you take the Lexus LFA and apply your logic? Each one of those is produced and sold at a LOSS. How many Miata's does that equal? A negative value?
For example, units * Sale price isn't really an important number. Sure, it's useful, but only to get to a more important number, the profit.
For example, What if you take the Lexus LFA and apply your logic? Each one of those is produced and sold at a LOSS. How many Miata's does that equal? A negative value?