New RX7 and RX9!
06-01-2010, 02:23 AM
#101
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I havent read all thourgh yet. but.. if you look the 16x up.. you'll find out that it is nothing like the ren in so many ways. he spark plugs are in a diff location and the fuel is deliverd by a direct injection. the Housing is much larger and the housing is also made of aluminum. The wieght is the same if not less then the ren but the power out put is saying about 40 to 80 hp more then the ren. No words on if its turbo yet. But if so.. I'm sure you'll see the tilted front mount. Mazda's listening to all of us.. They know they have almost killed them selves with an underpowered over priced "sports car" dubed the RX8.. We all know the 8 stock is crap.. Fun to drive.. But a B18c swapped EG hatch can kill u..Major mods cost the consumer a lot of green.. Hince the reason they are listening, but not just to us, but to racing drivers. Theres even talk of mazda hopping back into the Le Mans.. the Ren isn't going to deal well in that breed of cars.. but the newly designed from the ground up has takin some of the best from all gens of Rotary powerplants and came up with the 16x. FYI there is a few others out there designing rotary motors.. like the rotary piston engine. trying to use less gas.. We all wish the best to mazda in their quest for power and economy.. But who are we kidding here.. We just want power......
06-01-2010, 04:05 AM
#103
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I've read somewhere that Mazda2 for US are made into upgraded Thai factory ,as the renewed model for you australians.
Here in EU we have not the new slightly modified aussie Mazda2, Ash...same thing in Japan.
Here in EU we expect to get €5 compliant Mazda2 model for 1/1/2011 (mandatory date for €5 cars)
Here in EU we have not the new slightly modified aussie Mazda2, Ash...same thing in Japan.
Here in EU we expect to get €5 compliant Mazda2 model for 1/1/2011 (mandatory date for €5 cars)
1. We have a free trade agreement with Thailand, so the 2's out of there are cheaper than Japan, and MA lowered the price slightly (retail) and added on a few extras.
2. I thought it was also to give capacity over for the USA Mazda 2 from Hiroshima, but if you think it is out of Thailand Matt?, a VIN prefix would tell us.
3. We had the Mazda 2 3Door hatch, but MA discontinued it "because of poor sales", wrong...Thailand Don't make a 3 door, so we Got the Sedan instead, which Japan does not make.
So IF the US later gets a Sedan we will know it is from Thailand.
Matt, your E5 Mazda 2 will have to have the SKY engine..as I see it??
06-01-2010, 04:46 AM
#104
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I havent read all thourgh yet. but.. if you look the 16x up.. you'll find out that it is nothing like the ren in so many ways. he spark plugs are in a diff location and the fuel is deliverd by a direct injection. the Housing is much larger and the housing is also made of aluminum. The wieght is the same if not less then the ren but the power out put is saying about 40 to 80 hp more then the ren. No words on if its turbo yet. But if so.. I'm sure you'll see the tilted front mount. Mazda's listening to all of us.. They know they have almost killed them selves with an underpowered over priced "sports car" dubed the RX8.. We all know the 8 stock is crap.. Fun to drive.. But a B18c swapped EG hatch can kill u..Major mods cost the consumer a lot of green.. Hince the reason they are listening, but not just to us, but to racing drivers. Theres even talk of mazda hopping back into the Le Mans.. the Ren isn't going to deal well in that breed of cars.. but the newly designed from the ground up has takin some of the best from all gens of Rotary powerplants and came up with the 16x. FYI there is a few others out there designing rotary motors.. like the rotary piston engine. trying to use less gas.. We all wish the best to mazda in their quest for power and economy.. But who are we kidding here.. We just want power......
ps. as far as i know, the housing of the 16x is NOT any larger than the renny. Only the internal dimensions is, hence, the dub of "16x" which improved the thermal efficiency.
Why would you compare a b18c honda with a rx8.. if you just wanted power then buy a american muscle.....
Please correct if my info is incorrect.
06-01-2010, 04:57 AM
#105
well, another thread that started out semi-official has turned into pure speculation...I enjoy reading what we all "Think", but until car(s) make it to production we'll never know.
06-01-2010, 06:47 AM
#106
06-01-2010, 08:58 AM
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Fair enough there , Poop.. But if you did a little reading then you'd see I was right..
the housing isn't the part I was meaning when I stated it was bigger.. I meant the inside.. I get some of the info from this guy..
Exclusive to RotaryNews.com
by Edwin Krampitz, Jr. (ekrampitzjr)
"Mazda has been coy about what the 16X rotor dimensions will be. Based on a bunch of detective work from the Mazda website and a recent US patent application, along with a lot of algebra and number crunching, I believe I have determined them:
Rotor radius (R) = 120 mm
Equidistance (a) = 2 mm
R' (R-prime) = R + a = 122 mm
Rotor eccentricity (e) = 18 mm
Rotor width (B or W) = 70 mm
K ratio = R/e = 6.67:1 (using R, not R')
Displacement using R' as Mazda (technically incorrectly) does:
798.8 cc/rotor, 1598 cc/engine
Major axis = 280 mm; minor axis = 208 mm
My confidence in the accuracy of these dimensions is very high, based on information in the patent application in particular. Read on for the technical details explaining how I determined these numbers....
Mazda first displayed prototypes of the new direct-injection 16X rotary in 2007, which will see use in upcoming vehicles and has appeared in recent show cars, but Mazda has so far been coy about its rotor dimensions. I believe I have deduced them; here I present my logic. This is a little long, so bear with me.
We know that the 16X uses a new trochoid with greater rotor radius (R) and eccentricity (e) than those of the 10A/12A/13B/RENESIS family, and its rotor width (B or W) is narrower than that of the 13B/RENESIS. In particular, e is larger for better low-speed torque. The stated displacement is 1600 cm³ (800 cm³/rotor), nearly 300 cm³ larger than that of the 13B/RENESIS, but Mazda has not given specific values for R, e, B, or the trochoid equidistance a, which (roughly speaking) is the allowance for the rotor apex seals.
For public consumption Mazda usually gives R’ (R-prime), or R + a, instead of R, and—though technically not correct—uses R’ in displacement calculations. The reason Mazda uses R’ seems to be that it has always been 105 mm in the 10A/12A/13B family, though R and a individually have changed over 40 years of rotary engine production. Lower values of a are better for technical reasons, and R and a in this engine family went from 101/4 mm until 1973 to 102/3 mm until 1986 to 103/2 mm since 1986.
Here are those figures for the RENESIS:
R = 103 mm
a = 2 mm
R’ = R + a = 105 mm
e = 15 mm
B = 80 mm
K ratio = R/e = 6.87:1 (not using R’)
Displacement using R’ as Mazda does:
654.7 cm³/rotor, 1308 cm³/engine
Mazda has given some clues to the 16X dimensions, both in its online publicity and in a new US patent application, US 20090101103, filed in April 2009. The title of the application is “Rotary piston engine and method for designing the same”, inventors Shimizu and Ueki, assignee Mazda.
To simplify this complex issue a lot: important new in-house combustion research showed that the rotor width B needed reduction for greater efficiency, especially for power generation, but also for improved fuel economy. By treating the face of the rotor as a rectangle, Mazda determined that B should be 76 mm maximum, and 70 mm is even better. Otherwise the burning charge does not reach the full width B, wasting fuel—and note that B for RENESIS exceeds this dimension and a common RX-8 complaint is poor fuel economy.
In a table the patent application gives different dimensions studied for the length of the rectangle, which would be the linear distance from apex to apex including its slight convexity (bulging out in the center). One of these, 182 mm, is clearly that for the RENESIS; two others studied were 208 mm and 222 mm.
On its website Mazda shows an outline of the RENESIS trochoid within a picture of the 16X, which allowed a rough-and-ready measure from the computer screen. The major axis is 2R’ + 2e, so for the RENESIS it is 240 mm (2 × 105 + 2 × 15). Proportionally the 16X major axis comes out to about 280 mm.
Let’s treat the rotor as an equilateral triangle. We know the approximate length of one side from the table in the patent application. We want the rotor radius, which is the distance from the center of the rotor to the apex, so the analogue for the triangle is center to point. This is the same thing as the radius of a circumscribed circle. The formula R = side × tan 30° = side × 0.5774. To check how accurate this is for RENESIS, R is known to be 105 mm and S given in the patent application is 182 mm. 182 × 0.5774 = 105.1 (rounded), so the formula works well and we can ignore the rotor face convexity.
For the new designs investigated in the patent application, S = 208 and 222. The formula gives R of 120 mm and 128.2 mm. The higher figure is unlikely. We know that B will certainly be no more than 76 mm and will be more likely 70 mm at most. The equidistance a has been 2 mm for over 20 years and seems unlikely to change now. It’s logical to figure that the displacement won’t be exactly 1600 cm³, but a little under. It’s also logical to figure that a will change proportionally more than R to improve torque, so the K ratio will be lower.
These points, some algebra, and a bit of number crunching give me the following dimensions for the 16X:
R = 120 mm
a = 2 mm
R’ = R + e = 122 mm
e = 18 mm
B = 70 mm
K = R/e = 6.67:1 (not using R’)
Displacement using R’ as Mazda does:
798.8 cm³/rotor, 1598 cm³/engine
The major axis is 280 mm—in agreement with the proportions measured from the computer screen. The minor axis is 208 mm.
In 2007 a Japanese fan site took a stab in the dark at the rotor dimensions. Its guess was very close, giving R (actually R’) as 122.5 mm and e as 17.5 mm, and agreeing with me for B as 70 mm. Its computations resulted in a rotor displacement of 797 cm³, very close to my deduction. However, my work is clearly not based on that guess.
Hope this helps all you rotorheads."
the housing isn't the part I was meaning when I stated it was bigger.. I meant the inside.. I get some of the info from this guy..
Exclusive to RotaryNews.com
by Edwin Krampitz, Jr. (ekrampitzjr)
"Mazda has been coy about what the 16X rotor dimensions will be. Based on a bunch of detective work from the Mazda website and a recent US patent application, along with a lot of algebra and number crunching, I believe I have determined them:
Rotor radius (R) = 120 mm
Equidistance (a) = 2 mm
R' (R-prime) = R + a = 122 mm
Rotor eccentricity (e) = 18 mm
Rotor width (B or W) = 70 mm
K ratio = R/e = 6.67:1 (using R, not R')
Displacement using R' as Mazda (technically incorrectly) does:
798.8 cc/rotor, 1598 cc/engine
Major axis = 280 mm; minor axis = 208 mm
My confidence in the accuracy of these dimensions is very high, based on information in the patent application in particular. Read on for the technical details explaining how I determined these numbers....
Mazda first displayed prototypes of the new direct-injection 16X rotary in 2007, which will see use in upcoming vehicles and has appeared in recent show cars, but Mazda has so far been coy about its rotor dimensions. I believe I have deduced them; here I present my logic. This is a little long, so bear with me.
We know that the 16X uses a new trochoid with greater rotor radius (R) and eccentricity (e) than those of the 10A/12A/13B/RENESIS family, and its rotor width (B or W) is narrower than that of the 13B/RENESIS. In particular, e is larger for better low-speed torque. The stated displacement is 1600 cm³ (800 cm³/rotor), nearly 300 cm³ larger than that of the 13B/RENESIS, but Mazda has not given specific values for R, e, B, or the trochoid equidistance a, which (roughly speaking) is the allowance for the rotor apex seals.
For public consumption Mazda usually gives R’ (R-prime), or R + a, instead of R, and—though technically not correct—uses R’ in displacement calculations. The reason Mazda uses R’ seems to be that it has always been 105 mm in the 10A/12A/13B family, though R and a individually have changed over 40 years of rotary engine production. Lower values of a are better for technical reasons, and R and a in this engine family went from 101/4 mm until 1973 to 102/3 mm until 1986 to 103/2 mm since 1986.
Here are those figures for the RENESIS:
R = 103 mm
a = 2 mm
R’ = R + a = 105 mm
e = 15 mm
B = 80 mm
K ratio = R/e = 6.87:1 (not using R’)
Displacement using R’ as Mazda does:
654.7 cm³/rotor, 1308 cm³/engine
Mazda has given some clues to the 16X dimensions, both in its online publicity and in a new US patent application, US 20090101103, filed in April 2009. The title of the application is “Rotary piston engine and method for designing the same”, inventors Shimizu and Ueki, assignee Mazda.
To simplify this complex issue a lot: important new in-house combustion research showed that the rotor width B needed reduction for greater efficiency, especially for power generation, but also for improved fuel economy. By treating the face of the rotor as a rectangle, Mazda determined that B should be 76 mm maximum, and 70 mm is even better. Otherwise the burning charge does not reach the full width B, wasting fuel—and note that B for RENESIS exceeds this dimension and a common RX-8 complaint is poor fuel economy.
In a table the patent application gives different dimensions studied for the length of the rectangle, which would be the linear distance from apex to apex including its slight convexity (bulging out in the center). One of these, 182 mm, is clearly that for the RENESIS; two others studied were 208 mm and 222 mm.
On its website Mazda shows an outline of the RENESIS trochoid within a picture of the 16X, which allowed a rough-and-ready measure from the computer screen. The major axis is 2R’ + 2e, so for the RENESIS it is 240 mm (2 × 105 + 2 × 15). Proportionally the 16X major axis comes out to about 280 mm.
Let’s treat the rotor as an equilateral triangle. We know the approximate length of one side from the table in the patent application. We want the rotor radius, which is the distance from the center of the rotor to the apex, so the analogue for the triangle is center to point. This is the same thing as the radius of a circumscribed circle. The formula R = side × tan 30° = side × 0.5774. To check how accurate this is for RENESIS, R is known to be 105 mm and S given in the patent application is 182 mm. 182 × 0.5774 = 105.1 (rounded), so the formula works well and we can ignore the rotor face convexity.
For the new designs investigated in the patent application, S = 208 and 222. The formula gives R of 120 mm and 128.2 mm. The higher figure is unlikely. We know that B will certainly be no more than 76 mm and will be more likely 70 mm at most. The equidistance a has been 2 mm for over 20 years and seems unlikely to change now. It’s logical to figure that the displacement won’t be exactly 1600 cm³, but a little under. It’s also logical to figure that a will change proportionally more than R to improve torque, so the K ratio will be lower.
These points, some algebra, and a bit of number crunching give me the following dimensions for the 16X:
R = 120 mm
a = 2 mm
R’ = R + e = 122 mm
e = 18 mm
B = 70 mm
K = R/e = 6.67:1 (not using R’)
Displacement using R’ as Mazda does:
798.8 cm³/rotor, 1598 cm³/engine
The major axis is 280 mm—in agreement with the proportions measured from the computer screen. The minor axis is 208 mm.
In 2007 a Japanese fan site took a stab in the dark at the rotor dimensions. Its guess was very close, giving R (actually R’) as 122.5 mm and e as 17.5 mm, and agreeing with me for B as 70 mm. Its computations resulted in a rotor displacement of 797 cm³, very close to my deduction. However, my work is clearly not based on that guess.
Hope this helps all you rotorheads."
06-01-2010, 09:08 AM
#111
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Japan Report: Mazda's 16x
Over the past weeks, a lot’s been written about Mazda’s new generation 16X rotary engine, which stars in the Mazda’s fabulously exotic Taiki Tokyo Show concept. But there hasn’t been too much actual sight of the engine itself. So here it is…
Pictured with rotary lead engineer Seiji Tashima at Mazda’s Yokohama R&D center, the bigger capacity two-rotor 16X RENESIS manages to be virtually as light and compact as the current 13B-MSP in the RX-8.
Instead of bolting on a couple of turbos, Mazda’s increased the size of the rotors and housing, giving a longer stroke and new 1600 cc capacity (800cc x 2).
With direct injection also on board, power and torque are both up 20 percent, yet the engine is also cleaner and of course designed to use less oil than today’s 13B.
Rotor housing and side housing are now aluminum and the new chamber design, plus direct injection are keys to improving the rotary’s notorious thirst.
Benchmarked against a conventional 3.0-liter V6, Mazda’s 16X is some ways away and it’s not clear yet whether Mazda will debut it a late version of the current RX-8, or wait for the next RX-8 which on current schedule isn't due until 2011.
( There is also a picture of the new concept motor 16X Renesis.)
From all the info I can gather it doesnt seem a turbo will be added.. But 285hp is 20% over 238hp which the Ren is said to have stock.. Not bad for a N/A..
Pictured with rotary lead engineer Seiji Tashima at Mazda’s Yokohama R&D center, the bigger capacity two-rotor 16X RENESIS manages to be virtually as light and compact as the current 13B-MSP in the RX-8.
Instead of bolting on a couple of turbos, Mazda’s increased the size of the rotors and housing, giving a longer stroke and new 1600 cc capacity (800cc x 2).
With direct injection also on board, power and torque are both up 20 percent, yet the engine is also cleaner and of course designed to use less oil than today’s 13B.
Rotor housing and side housing are now aluminum and the new chamber design, plus direct injection are keys to improving the rotary’s notorious thirst.
Benchmarked against a conventional 3.0-liter V6, Mazda’s 16X is some ways away and it’s not clear yet whether Mazda will debut it a late version of the current RX-8, or wait for the next RX-8 which on current schedule isn't due until 2011.
( There is also a picture of the new concept motor 16X Renesis.)
From all the info I can gather it doesnt seem a turbo will be added.. But 285hp is 20% over 238hp which the Ren is said to have stock.. Not bad for a N/A..
06-01-2010, 09:25 AM
#113
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Futher more.
With no proof of solid infomation there then what can be found on Mazda's web site and car reports, everything is subject to change. If in fact the 16x Ren is N/A we should be seeing that 285hp number but I have read other pages that report from AutoCar that the new Ren will be a 300hp turbo motor. Now as others have stated in this topic. The new car will be about 200lbs lighter then the current 8.. However, there may be a damn good chance we will see the new motor in 2011 as the 2012 model. If this were the case, you talkin to one guy who will be in line for the new Mazda bad boy. Surely If I would assume currectly, Mazda doesn't want to steer away from this amazing road carving design, so be expecting the same 50/50 but the rear end needs to be swapped out for something heavier and the trans gears need to be set better for top speeds as well.. A quick car isnt as much fun as a fast car in the turns.
And to comment on my self when I compared the Honda DOHC GSR 18c to the ren is because.. But engines are made for high rpms and if I were mazda I'd make damn sure no stinkin honda could beat my new sports car.
A friend of mine has a 18c swapped civic and it keeps up for a little bit, but if I were to be stock.. Well I just might be seeing his tail lights. That is embarising to a car that is said to have nearly 45+ hp over that engine.. Figure it out Mazda.. We're waiting for something amazing..
With no proof of solid infomation there then what can be found on Mazda's web site and car reports, everything is subject to change. If in fact the 16x Ren is N/A we should be seeing that 285hp number but I have read other pages that report from AutoCar that the new Ren will be a 300hp turbo motor. Now as others have stated in this topic. The new car will be about 200lbs lighter then the current 8.. However, there may be a damn good chance we will see the new motor in 2011 as the 2012 model. If this were the case, you talkin to one guy who will be in line for the new Mazda bad boy. Surely If I would assume currectly, Mazda doesn't want to steer away from this amazing road carving design, so be expecting the same 50/50 but the rear end needs to be swapped out for something heavier and the trans gears need to be set better for top speeds as well.. A quick car isnt as much fun as a fast car in the turns.
And to comment on my self when I compared the Honda DOHC GSR 18c to the ren is because.. But engines are made for high rpms and if I were mazda I'd make damn sure no stinkin honda could beat my new sports car.
A friend of mine has a 18c swapped civic and it keeps up for a little bit, but if I were to be stock.. Well I just might be seeing his tail lights. That is embarising to a car that is said to have nearly 45+ hp over that engine.. Figure it out Mazda.. We're waiting for something amazing..
06-01-2010, 09:26 AM
#114
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Over the past weeks, a lot’s been written about Mazda’s new generation 16X rotary engine, which stars in the Mazda’s fabulously exotic Taiki Tokyo Show concept. But there hasn’t been too much actual sight of the engine itself. So here it is…
Pictured with rotary lead engineer Seiji Tashima at Mazda’s Yokohama R&D center, the bigger capacity two-rotor 16X RENESIS manages to be virtually as light and compact as the current 13B-MSP in the RX-8.
Instead of bolting on a couple of turbos, Mazda’s increased the size of the rotors and housing, giving a longer stroke and new 1600 cc capacity (800cc x 2).
With direct injection also on board, power and torque are both up 20 percent, yet the engine is also cleaner and of course designed to use less oil than today’s 13B.
Rotor housing and side housing are now aluminum and the new chamber design, plus direct injection are keys to improving the rotary’s notorious thirst.
Benchmarked against a conventional 3.0-liter V6, Mazda’s 16X is some ways away and it’s not clear yet whether Mazda will debut it a late version of the current RX-8, or wait for the next RX-8 which on current schedule isn't due until 2011.
( There is also a picture of the new concept motor 16X Renesis.)
From all the info I can gather it doesnt seem a turbo will be added.. But 285hp is 20% over 238hp which the Ren is said to have stock.. Not bad for a N/A..
Pictured with rotary lead engineer Seiji Tashima at Mazda’s Yokohama R&D center, the bigger capacity two-rotor 16X RENESIS manages to be virtually as light and compact as the current 13B-MSP in the RX-8.
Instead of bolting on a couple of turbos, Mazda’s increased the size of the rotors and housing, giving a longer stroke and new 1600 cc capacity (800cc x 2).
With direct injection also on board, power and torque are both up 20 percent, yet the engine is also cleaner and of course designed to use less oil than today’s 13B.
Rotor housing and side housing are now aluminum and the new chamber design, plus direct injection are keys to improving the rotary’s notorious thirst.
Benchmarked against a conventional 3.0-liter V6, Mazda’s 16X is some ways away and it’s not clear yet whether Mazda will debut it a late version of the current RX-8, or wait for the next RX-8 which on current schedule isn't due until 2011.
( There is also a picture of the new concept motor 16X Renesis.)
From all the info I can gather it doesnt seem a turbo will be added.. But 285hp is 20% over 238hp which the Ren is said to have stock.. Not bad for a N/A..
06-01-2010, 09:31 AM
#115
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06-01-2010, 09:34 AM
#116
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I'm quoting the pages.. I would say it was posted this past month sometime. Just found it.. and there were no dates.. your guess is as good as mine.. I'm just doing the home work for you guys..
06-01-2010, 09:53 AM
#117
Most of us are speculating here but I would warrant a guess that if we get any new rotary car it will be no sooner than 2012 as a 2013 for the US market. If that's the case, expect a lot of action VERY soon. The RX8 was shown at the 01 Detroit Auto show and then Tokyo show of the same year (RX Evolv was shown the previous year). The RX8 was on sale in the US by June of 03 as an 04 car.
Paul.
Paul.
06-01-2010, 09:55 AM
#118
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A friend of mine has a 18c swapped civic and it keeps up for a little bit, but if I were to be stock.. Well I just might be seeing his tail lights. That is embarising to a car that is said to have nearly 45+ hp over that engine.. Figure it out Mazda.. We're waiting for something amazing..
06-01-2010, 10:22 AM
#120
Metatron
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It's a very old report, dated 2007!
http://www.nextautos.com/car-buying/...s-16x-renesis/
Sorry.......
S
http://www.nextautos.com/car-buying/...s-16x-renesis/
Sorry.......
S
06-01-2010, 01:37 PM
#123
Lets do a rehash of some of Mazdas earlier Concept vehicles. I'm putting these out here so you can speculate on Mazda's future styling.
Mazda Ryuga Concept
Mazda Kazamai Concept
Mazda Nagare Concept
Mazda Hakaze Concept
Mazda Kabura Concept
Mazda Kiyora Concept
Mazda MX5 Superlight Concept
Mazda Senku Rotary Hybrid Concept
Mazda Ibuki Hybrid Concept
Mazda Taiki
Mazda Ryuga Concept
Mazda Kazamai Concept
Mazda Nagare Concept
Mazda Hakaze Concept
Mazda Kabura Concept
Mazda Kiyora Concept
Mazda MX5 Superlight Concept
Mazda Senku Rotary Hybrid Concept
Mazda Ibuki Hybrid Concept
Mazda Taiki
Last edited by Easy_E1; 06-01-2010 at 02:28 PM.
06-01-2010, 01:53 PM
#124
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Lets do a rehash of some of Mazdas earlier Concept vehicles. I'm putting these out here so you can speculate on Mazda's future styling.
Mazda Ryuga Concept
Mazda Kazamai Concept
Mazda Nagare Concept
Mazda Hakaze Concept
Mazda Kabura Concept
Mazda Kiyora Concept
Mazda MX5 Superlight Concept
Mazda Senku Rotary Hybrid Concept
Mazda Ibuki Hybrid Concept
Mazda Ryuga Concept
Mazda Kazamai Concept
Mazda Nagare Concept
Mazda Hakaze Concept
Mazda Kabura Concept
Mazda Kiyora Concept
Mazda MX5 Superlight Concept
Mazda Senku Rotary Hybrid Concept
Mazda Ibuki Hybrid Concept
HOLY ****! Those cars are a damn good reason to hold on tight to your current RX8's...
