The new Lotus
02-26-2005, 04:23 PM
#152
Thats the Sport Exige model. Doesn't get much better.
That roof scoop feeds the engine in a similar manner to an f1 car.
photos and article:
http://www.exoticcarsite.com/pages/l...port_exige.htm
That roof scoop feeds the engine in a similar manner to an f1 car.
photos and article:
http://www.exoticcarsite.com/pages/l...port_exige.htm
02-26-2005, 04:24 PM
#153
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Originally Posted by truemagellen
which one is that?
The Lotus Sport Exige, developed by Lotus Sport is a direct motorsport derivative of the successful Lotus Exige.
The Lotus designed and engineered racecar uses the latest motorsport techniques and procedures to produce a lightweight yet strong carbon-fibre bodywork structure around the standard road-going Lotus Exige Aluminium extruded and bonded chassis.
Lotus Sport designed a fully adjustable suspension system with double wishbones all round. Power is provided by a 400hp, 3 litre, V6 racing engine linked to sequential six-speed gearbox.
As the Lotus Sport Exige is, at present, a one-off racecar, a price cannot be given for the racecar package.
02-26-2005, 04:49 PM
#156
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Originally Posted by BlueEyes
My favourite are the front engined cars with roof scoops on them that don't go anywhere.
Someone should get this for their 8, it would make a lot of sense.
Someone should get this for their 8, it would make a lot of sense.
02-26-2005, 08:21 PM
#157
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A car club friend has an elise. I could barely get into it, and getting out of the thing was rather comical. I think I pulled a neck muscle contorting myself so I could climb out. Definitely not the car for me. Guy with the Elise loved my new RX8 and marvelled at all of the interior room.
02-27-2005, 12:55 PM
#158
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Originally Posted by IkeWRX
The toyota engine weighs less than the renesis, also, when dynoed they're making about the same amount of hp to the wheels as RX-8s are.
First, how do you know how much the RX-8's engine or the Celica/Elise’s engine weighs to know one is lighter than the other?
Second, your statement would imply that the Celica & Elise have almost zero drivetrain loss in putting power to the wheels. The 1.8L Toyota engine is rated at 180hp in the Celica and 190 hp in the Elise. RX-8s are rated at 238 hp (US)/250 ps (JDM) and most US models dyno stock at the wheels between 180-190hp. There’s now a post of a stock 8's documented dyno run of 206 hp at the wheels. Unhindered by the ECU, we know the RENESIS can put out the power, as it does in the Star Mazda series.
Finally, the Celica GTS weighs 500 lbs less than the RX-8, but takes over 7 seconds to hit 0-60, while the RX-8 has been tested at 5.9-6.1 secs. (And before you think about mentioning pre-production cars tests, the most current tests in MT and R&T were done with full production vehicles.)
So your math just doesn't seem to add up.
02-27-2005, 01:15 PM
#159
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The elise is a gorgeous sports car. My only complaint about the elise is actually more circumstantial than anything. I have size 12-13 feet. I cannot drive that car with my shoes on because the footwell is so small and the pedals are so close together.. yea.. I have big feet, but they could've designed it just slightly larger so I could fit my shoes in there :b
I guess I'll have to invest in some driving shoes.
I guess I'll have to invest in some driving shoes.
02-27-2005, 01:34 PM
#160
very good point...ike just loves to **** and moan
Originally Posted by RX-Hachi
Ike - your posts are becoming so predictable. You never miss a chance to try and slam the RENESIS’s hp. But this time, your statements are unfounded.
First, how do you know how much the RX-8's engine or the Celica/Elise’s engine weighs to know one is lighter than the other?
Second, your statement would imply that the Celica & Elise have almost zero drivetrain loss in putting power to the wheels. The 1.8L Toyota engine is rated at 180hp in the Celica and 190 hp in the Elise. RX-8s are rated at 238 hp (US)/250 ps (JDM) and most US models dyno stock at the wheels between 180-190hp. There’s now a post of a stock 8's documented dyno run of 206 hp at the wheels. Unhindered by the ECU, we know the RENESIS can put out the power, as it does in the Star Mazda series.
Finally, the Celica GTS weighs 500 lbs less than the RX-8, but takes over 7 seconds to hit 0-60, while the RX-8 has been tested at 5.9-6.1 secs. (And before you think about mentioning pre-production cars tests, the most current tests in MT and R&T were done with full production vehicles.)
So your math just doesn't seem to add up.
First, how do you know how much the RX-8's engine or the Celica/Elise’s engine weighs to know one is lighter than the other?
Second, your statement would imply that the Celica & Elise have almost zero drivetrain loss in putting power to the wheels. The 1.8L Toyota engine is rated at 180hp in the Celica and 190 hp in the Elise. RX-8s are rated at 238 hp (US)/250 ps (JDM) and most US models dyno stock at the wheels between 180-190hp. There’s now a post of a stock 8's documented dyno run of 206 hp at the wheels. Unhindered by the ECU, we know the RENESIS can put out the power, as it does in the Star Mazda series.
Finally, the Celica GTS weighs 500 lbs less than the RX-8, but takes over 7 seconds to hit 0-60, while the RX-8 has been tested at 5.9-6.1 secs. (And before you think about mentioning pre-production cars tests, the most current tests in MT and R&T were done with full production vehicles.)
So your math just doesn't seem to add up.
02-27-2005, 01:41 PM
#161
I know that the 2zz-ge engine is one of the lightest out there, ~120kg I think. I can't for the life of me find a renesis engine weight, or any 13B for that matter. As well, the GT-S' engine has 180 hp vs the 190 being made in the lotus. Also, the lotus got rid of the power dip at cam changeover and strengthened the torque curve of the engine. I wish I could find some info on the renisis weight, why is this so hard!!
EDIT: Reading through this thread I found a couple instances where the renesis was claimed to weight ~130 kg and 115kg for the elise engine.
EDIT: Reading through this thread I found a couple instances where the renesis was claimed to weight ~130 kg and 115kg for the elise engine.
Last edited by BlueEyes; 02-27-2005 at 02:35 PM.
02-27-2005, 03:06 PM
#162
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Originally Posted by BlueEyes
I know that the 2zz-ge engine is one of the lightest out there, ~120kg I think. I can't for the life of me find a renesis engine weight, or any 13B for that matter. As well, the GT-S' engine has 180 hp vs the 190 being made in the lotus. Also, the lotus got rid of the power dip at cam changeover and strengthened the torque curve of the engine. I wish I could find some info on the renisis weight, why is this so hard!!
EDIT: Reading through this thread I found a couple instances where the renesis was claimed to weight ~130 kg and 115kg for the elise engine.
EDIT: Reading through this thread I found a couple instances where the renesis was claimed to weight ~130 kg and 115kg for the elise engine.
02-27-2005, 03:10 PM
#163
Originally Posted by babylou
I am quite sure the 115 kg weight of the Toyota 2zz-ge engine is without ancillaries. This 115 kg weight was mentioned in an SAE paper that I cannot find at the moment. Fully dressed the 2zz-ge would be ~130 kg. The 130 kg for the Renesis is fully dressed.
the renesis would be the much better choice in the vehicle...ESPECIALLY with some basic tuning since several 8s dyno much higher than 190whp
in fact some do over 200whp...without tuning just simple variations, imagine with tuning
the lotus would kick *** with the renesis in it
02-27-2005, 06:54 PM
#164
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Originally Posted by RX-Hachi
Ike - your posts are becoming so predictable. You never miss a chance to try and slam the RENESIS’s hp. But this time, your statements are unfounded.
First, how do you know how much the RX-8's engine or the Celica/Elise’s engine weighs to know one is lighter than the other?
Second, your statement would imply that the Celica & Elise have almost zero drivetrain loss in putting power to the wheels. The 1.8L Toyota engine is rated at 180hp in the Celica and 190 hp in the Elise. RX-8s are rated at 238 hp (US)/250 ps (JDM) and most US models dyno stock at the wheels between 180-190hp. There’s now a post of a stock 8's documented dyno run of 206 hp at the wheels. Unhindered by the ECU, we know the RENESIS can put out the power, as it does in the Star Mazda series.
Finally, the Celica GTS weighs 500 lbs less than the RX-8, but takes over 7 seconds to hit 0-60, while the RX-8 has been tested at 5.9-6.1 secs. (And before you think about mentioning pre-production cars tests, the most current tests in MT and R&T were done with full production vehicles.)
So your math just doesn't seem to add up.
First, how do you know how much the RX-8's engine or the Celica/Elise’s engine weighs to know one is lighter than the other?
Second, your statement would imply that the Celica & Elise have almost zero drivetrain loss in putting power to the wheels. The 1.8L Toyota engine is rated at 180hp in the Celica and 190 hp in the Elise. RX-8s are rated at 238 hp (US)/250 ps (JDM) and most US models dyno stock at the wheels between 180-190hp. There’s now a post of a stock 8's documented dyno run of 206 hp at the wheels. Unhindered by the ECU, we know the RENESIS can put out the power, as it does in the Star Mazda series.
Finally, the Celica GTS weighs 500 lbs less than the RX-8, but takes over 7 seconds to hit 0-60, while the RX-8 has been tested at 5.9-6.1 secs. (And before you think about mentioning pre-production cars tests, the most current tests in MT and R&T were done with full production vehicles.)
So your math just doesn't seem to add up.
1.) There was a thread a while back and the numbers we came up with showed the Renesis being a little heavier than the 2ZZ. In fact it was discussed earlier in this thread and there are a few articles that claim the Celica engine to be anywhere from 246-253lbs, whereas the Renesis numbers I've seen range from 275-302lbs, the difference in numbers is probably a the difference of some fluids.
2.) The few Elise dynoes I have seen put the Elise at 165-170whp which is about the same as the RX-8, just like I said. My statement hardly implies that there is nearly zero drivetrain loss in the Elise, but does imply that the Elise is a little underrated and the RX-8 a little overrated. Keep in mind the Elise dynos are on brand new cars and are also most of the ones I've seen were Cali cars done with 91 octane (not sure if it would really make a difference). Many of the first RX-8 dynos runs were in the 160-175 range. Sure, one guy with a freak car just broke 200whp on a dyno but that's the only time anyone has even come close to doing so let alone actually doing it. Disclaimer: yes I think the Renesis puts out more power than the Elise engine, but it's not much more.
3.) The Celica GTS is very capable of running mid 6s 0-60 and very low 15s in the 1/4 while trapping NEARLY what an RX-8 can. Most of the faster ones are the MY00 due to a few minor tweaks they made later in the Celicas life. You're also comparing FWD and RWD cars 0-60 times which is pretty useless for determining power.
4.) The point of this is the the 2ZZ is a very good engine for the Elise and I don't see how a Renesis would be any better. Did I forget to mention you can get 30+mpg with the 2ZZ, plus the reliability of a Toyota engine in addition to it being much easier to find someone experienced with the innerworkings of the engine? I was hardly slamming the Renesis, simple pointing out that the Elise doesn't necessarily become a better car once you put a Renesis in it.
5.) Truemagellen, easy with the exagerations there man. Show me more than one RX-8 that has dynoed over 200whp, or even more than a couple that have dynoed over 190whp in stock form.
02-27-2005, 08:16 PM
#165
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I personally think Ike's posts are for the most part accurate and truthful. They can also be debateable at times as well. I understand though that many people on here take it as bashing, and do not want to hear it. It's good to have an objective view on cars that Ike brings to table, even if many of us can't handle the objective criticism. Just my .02
02-28-2005, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by IkeWRX
I'm hardly slamming the renesis, so stop being so damn sensitive.
1.) There was a thread a while back and the numbers we came up with showed the Renesis being a little heavier than the 2ZZ. In fact it was discussed earlier in this thread and there are a few articles that claim the Celica engine to be anywhere from 246-253lbs, whereas the Renesis numbers I've seen range from 275-302lbs, the difference in numbers is probably a the difference of some fluids.
2.) The few Elise dynoes I have seen put the Elise at 165-170whp which is about the same as the RX-8, just like I said. My statement hardly implies that there is nearly zero drivetrain loss in the Elise, but does imply that the Elise is a little underrated and the RX-8 a little overrated. Keep in mind the Elise dynos are on brand new cars and are also most of the ones I've seen were Cali cars done with 91 octane (not sure if it would really make a difference). Many of the first RX-8 dynos runs were in the 160-175 range. Sure, one guy with a freak car just broke 200whp on a dyno but that's the only time anyone has even come close to doing so let alone actually doing it. Disclaimer: yes I think the Renesis puts out more power than the Elise engine, but it's not much more.
3.) The Celica GTS is very capable of running mid 6s 0-60 and very low 15s in the 1/4 while trapping NEARLY what an RX-8 can. Most of the faster ones are the MY00 due to a few minor tweaks they made later in the Celicas life. You're also comparing FWD and RWD cars 0-60 times which is pretty useless for determining power.
4.) The point of this is the the 2ZZ is a very good engine for the Elise and I don't see how a Renesis would be any better. Did I forget to mention you can get 30+mpg with the 2ZZ, plus the reliability of a Toyota engine in addition to it being much easier to find someone experienced with the innerworkings of the engine? I was hardly slamming the Renesis, simple pointing out that the Elise doesn't necessarily become a better car once you put a Renesis in it.
5.) Truemagellen, easy with the exagerations there man. Show me more than one RX-8 that has dynoed over 200whp, or even more than a couple that have dynoed over 190whp in stock form.
1.) There was a thread a while back and the numbers we came up with showed the Renesis being a little heavier than the 2ZZ. In fact it was discussed earlier in this thread and there are a few articles that claim the Celica engine to be anywhere from 246-253lbs, whereas the Renesis numbers I've seen range from 275-302lbs, the difference in numbers is probably a the difference of some fluids.
2.) The few Elise dynoes I have seen put the Elise at 165-170whp which is about the same as the RX-8, just like I said. My statement hardly implies that there is nearly zero drivetrain loss in the Elise, but does imply that the Elise is a little underrated and the RX-8 a little overrated. Keep in mind the Elise dynos are on brand new cars and are also most of the ones I've seen were Cali cars done with 91 octane (not sure if it would really make a difference). Many of the first RX-8 dynos runs were in the 160-175 range. Sure, one guy with a freak car just broke 200whp on a dyno but that's the only time anyone has even come close to doing so let alone actually doing it. Disclaimer: yes I think the Renesis puts out more power than the Elise engine, but it's not much more.
3.) The Celica GTS is very capable of running mid 6s 0-60 and very low 15s in the 1/4 while trapping NEARLY what an RX-8 can. Most of the faster ones are the MY00 due to a few minor tweaks they made later in the Celicas life. You're also comparing FWD and RWD cars 0-60 times which is pretty useless for determining power.
4.) The point of this is the the 2ZZ is a very good engine for the Elise and I don't see how a Renesis would be any better. Did I forget to mention you can get 30+mpg with the 2ZZ, plus the reliability of a Toyota engine in addition to it being much easier to find someone experienced with the innerworkings of the engine? I was hardly slamming the Renesis, simple pointing out that the Elise doesn't necessarily become a better car once you put a Renesis in it.
5.) Truemagellen, easy with the exagerations there man. Show me more than one RX-8 that has dynoed over 200whp, or even more than a couple that have dynoed over 190whp in stock form.
In this particular response, as ever you're slanting things and using biased info. As an example, the dyno figures you’ve taken are the low end ones for the RX-8. Furthermore, it’s unclear where you get your data points from. For the most part, it seems to be based on internet hearsay rather than legitimate sources.
My data points come from established magazines:
- Sport Car Compact has published dynoing the RX-8 at 188 hp at the wheels.
- MotorTrend tested a production RX-8 at 0-60 in 6.0 secs & 1/4 mile at 14.5 secs
- Road&Track got near identical results to what MT did with another production RX-8
- Car and Driver tested the TRD Celica at 0-60 in 7.5 secs & 1/4 mile at 15.7 secs
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1
- Road&Track tested the Celica GTS and got a better 0-60 time of 6.8 secs
Show me legitimate evidence for your claims and I’ll say you’re right. Frankly, I have no idea what either engine weighs. But again, I’d like to see some credible proof points rather than hearsay from internet forums.
Last edited by RX-Hachi; 02-28-2005 at 12:32 AM.
02-28-2005, 04:18 AM
#167
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Originally Posted by RX-Hachi
Ike - I'm as open minded as the next guy, but yes, I'm a little tired of seeing your relentless crusade in this area of the RX-8’s hp. A post every now and then, no problem. But every post that has anything at all to do with hp and you're there talking smack. It’s your cumulative slanted remarks about hp that have grown really old. But hey, it's a free country.
In this particular response, as ever you're slanting things and using biased info. As an example, the dyno figures you’ve taken are the low end ones for the RX-8. Furthermore, it’s unclear where you get your data points from. For the most part, it seems to be based on internet hearsay rather than legitimate sources.
My data points come from established magazines:
- Sport Car Compact has published dynoing the RX-8 at 188 hp at the wheels.
- MotorTrend tested a production RX-8 at 0-60 in 6.0 secs & 1/4 mile at 14.5 secs
- Road&Track got near identical results to what MT did with another production RX-8
- Car and Driver tested the TRD Celica at 0-60 in 7.5 secs & 1/4 mile at 15.7 secs
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1
- Road&Track tested the Celica GTS and got a better 0-60 time of 6.8 secs
Show me legitimate evidence for your claims and I’ll say you’re right. Frankly, I have no idea what either engine weighs. But again, I’d like to see some credible proof points rather than hearsay from internet forums.
In this particular response, as ever you're slanting things and using biased info. As an example, the dyno figures you’ve taken are the low end ones for the RX-8. Furthermore, it’s unclear where you get your data points from. For the most part, it seems to be based on internet hearsay rather than legitimate sources.
My data points come from established magazines:
- Sport Car Compact has published dynoing the RX-8 at 188 hp at the wheels.
- MotorTrend tested a production RX-8 at 0-60 in 6.0 secs & 1/4 mile at 14.5 secs
- Road&Track got near identical results to what MT did with another production RX-8
- Car and Driver tested the TRD Celica at 0-60 in 7.5 secs & 1/4 mile at 15.7 secs
http://www.caranddriver.com/article....&page_number=1
- Road&Track tested the Celica GTS and got a better 0-60 time of 6.8 secs
Show me legitimate evidence for your claims and I’ll say you’re right. Frankly, I have no idea what either engine weighs. But again, I’d like to see some credible proof points rather than hearsay from internet forums.
I"m heading to bed but here's a ling showing the dry weight of the 2ZZ-GE
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elis...ne/toyota.html
Here's something to read while you wait in anticipation of my full post tomorrow
http://www.diasio.com/d962r.html
Oh, and this one is for the people that have called BS when I've said the Renesis was originally targeted to have around 280hp.
http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=Ren...ry%20weight%27
Til tomorrow,
Ike
03-01-2005, 02:14 PM
#168
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Originally Posted by RX-Hachi
The 1.8L Toyota engine is rated at 180hp in the Celica and 190 hp in the Elise.
The Euro Toyota Celica TS(T-Sport) is rated 192 hp.
I believe it is this engine the Elise has got.
03-01-2005, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by IkeWRX
I"m heading to bed but here's a ling showing the dry weight of the 2ZZ-GE
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elis...ne/toyota.html
Here's something to read while you wait in anticipation of my full post tomorrow
http://www.diasio.com/d962r.html
Oh, and this one is for the people that have called BS when I've said the Renesis was originally targeted to have around 280hp.
http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=Ren...ry%20weight%27
Til tomorrow,
Ike
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elis...ne/toyota.html
Here's something to read while you wait in anticipation of my full post tomorrow
http://www.diasio.com/d962r.html
Oh, and this one is for the people that have called BS when I've said the Renesis was originally targeted to have around 280hp.
http://rds.yahoo.com/S=2766679/K=Ren...ry%20weight%27
Til tomorrow,
Ike
But remember you were implying that the Toyota engine weighs less while producing about the same power as the Renesis. I haven’t found anything in these links that clearly supports that. If anything, the second link implies the Renesis has even greater power potential. The third link didn’t work for me.
03-01-2005, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueEyes
I think they got the 180 hp model but then tuned it themselves to reach the 190 rather than getting the euro version.
By the way.I checked and in DIN-hp both the Lotus and the Celica are 192 hp in Europe.Some places I find 189 and 190 for the Lotus.. Some places 190 for the Celica.
Last edited by CaptainZoom; 03-01-2005 at 03:16 PM.
03-01-2005, 03:25 PM
#172
If it made sense for Toyota to detune the 2ZZGE for NA markets, it would make sense for Lotus to use that engine in NA markets I suppose.
I found this:
http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elis...ne/toyota.html
I found this:
...However Lotus has retuned the 2ZZ-GE for use in Elise, smoothing out the torque dip at the 6000 rpm cam changeover point and strengthening the torque in the other rpm ranges. In addition to the improved torque Lotus brought the peak horsepower back up to 190 in their U.S. version of the engine.
03-01-2005, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueEyes
If it made sense for Toyota to detune the 2ZZGE for NA markets, it would make sense for Lotus to use that engine in NA markets I suppose.
I found this:
I found this:
I found the same link
I guess that explains it.
The Celica engine is less hp in NA to meet emission standards.
03-01-2005, 09:54 PM
#174
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Originally Posted by RX-Hachi
Very informative links. Thanks.
But remember you were implying that the Toyota engine weighs less while producing about the same power as the Renesis. I haven’t found anything in these links that clearly supports that. If anything, the second link implies the Renesis has even greater power potential. The third link didn’t work for me.
But remember you were implying that the Toyota engine weighs less while producing about the same power as the Renesis. I haven’t found anything in these links that clearly supports that. If anything, the second link implies the Renesis has even greater power potential. The third link didn’t work for me.
Pros for the 2ZZ-GE:
Very light
High Revving
Good fuel economy
Reliable and proven
Easier to get serviced
No emissions problems
No need for Elise to teach their techs how to work on Rotaries
Easier to produce and more plentiful supply
It's a very good match for the Elise and IMO a better one than the Renesis for a couple of the reasons pointed out above. The Renesis is a great and unique engine, but it does have its drawbacks.
P.S. The 3rd link is a PDF file of a Mazda press release about their 280ps renesis, it's pretty ineteresting. You should easily be able to find it on a yahoo search, not sure why my link didn't work, maybe it's just too long.
Last edited by IkeWRX; 03-01-2005 at 09:56 PM.