Baller

LOL.......you may be correct.

SPDRCER

From the engine point of view, does 2ZZ-GE offer anything superior to Renesis? Truth is that I own a Celica GTS before, and from its 6K-8K RPM 2nd cam lift is too narrow to be effective. Lotus may have tune the 4K-5K flat power hole, but Renesis still sound more additive and smoother through out the whole range. MR-S Spyder might be a better alternative if someone want to use the 2ZZ-GE effectively.

wakeech

the dimensions are different, it's designed for a lateral transmission (FWD, and i suppose it's the same backwards with RWD in the Lotus??), it's much better on gas no matter how lean we'll be able to get the 13B-MSP, and is far more familiar to service techs. i'm pretty sure it's a cheaper engine too, if not available in FAR higher production numbers.

but yes, it's taller, heavier, and less powerful.

Ike

Why on earth do you still think it's heavier? The 2ZZ-GE weights about 50lbs. less than the Renesis if the 302 figure for the renesis is correct, and yes that's dressed weight for the 2ZZ. Also when dynos come out I'd be willing to guess the Elise engine will dyno pretty damn close to what the RX-8 is getting. Also, where's your dimensions showing that it's taller, I'm not saying you're wrong but if you're going to make a claim back it up.

babylou

Ikester,

If you are telling Wakeech to back up his statements with data then you should also. Isn't this reasonable?

I have not seen credible evidence that the 2ZZ-GE only weighs 250 lbs (fully dressed for manny tranny) and would be surpised if it was so since the Honda F20C is a very similar engine and weighs 326 lbs. Can you point me in a direction to collect this data?

Also, it is as obvious as the sky is blue that an I4 engine with DOHC is significantly taller than a Renesis. I recall Mazda's media package for the RX-8 stating the Renesis was 2/3 the height of a DOHC I4. Am I wrong here?

EDIT ALERT:

Aight, I did a bit of research and have garnered the following info from Mazda's RX-8 press kit anda Lotus Elise/Toyota 2ZZ-GE engine site

Mazda Renesis Height = 13.3 inches (bottom of oil pan to top of housings)
Toyota 2ZZ-GE Height = 25.9 inches. (that's 2X!)
Toyota 2ZZ-GE Weight = 253 lbs dry (this does not state dressed with accessories)

I doubt the 2ZZ-GE accessories are included the weight because this would be 73 lbs lighter than the Honda F20C. The Honda F20C is of the same displacement, both use aluminum cylinders, have DOHC, have dual cam lift systems and use chain driven cams. From a weight point of view no two engines could be more similar. There is no way in hell Toyota is that much smarter than Honda in terms of engineered weight efficiency.

Baller

The engines in question are almost the same weight and as Ike has said similar power.....the only advantage is height, and perhaps the wonderful sound of the rotary. The big advantage goes to Lotus for the 33 MPG.

The Lotus is the supercar for the people, I think when we all get a chance to drive one and see one in person we may be trading in the RX-8 (mine is on order with Symbolic, 16 on the list now.)

I really like my RX-8, but I think I will love the Lotus.

Baller

FYI..... The new Lamborghini Gallardo with 500 HP and all-wheel drive that cost $175,000 goes 0-60 in 4.5 seconds, the little Toyota powered Lotus goes 0-60 in 4.4 seconds. Weight is the enemy in any sports car.

Even when and if we ever get a good super-charger for our RX-8's it will not run 0-60 as fast..........The new Lotus is the king.

Hanzo

Glad to see someone know what they are talking about.

Ike

First, Toyota didn't engineer the engine, Yamaha did. Second, the head and the block are aluminum, that's how it's that much lighter.

I'm trying to fathom how the Renesis is only 13.3 inches high, I've seen it in the car and I just don't see how that's possible, but I'll take your word for it.

babylou

Toyota engineers or Yamaha engineers. Wupty do or lah dee dah or whatever. I still doubt Yamaha engineers are 73 lbs smarter than Honda engineers. Your aluminum head and block comment is troubling. Did I not already mention that the Honda engine also uses an aluminum block with aluminum cylinders just like the Toyota? When is the last time you saw a current production engine that had a production street car cylinder head made of any material other than aluminum?

You don't need to take my word for the heights. I provided a link for the Toyota engine info and the Mazda RX-8 press kit is available for download on this site. All the data are in these two places. Basically, I did what you cracked on wakeech for not doing but you also did not do. I backed up my statements with proof.

RobDickinson

13" must be the undressed height, the N_DAIS/headers will be on top of that surely?

As for which is better for the elise, the super smothe torque curve and acceleration of the renesis its the tops for any car like this.

The elise is all about balance and poise, you have a much better chance of that when the engine has a flat torque curve, instead of a lumpy v-tec 'boost' which you most certainly dont want half way round a corner at v-max.

Oh and the old elise is King. New one is to heavy, but still not a bad car. As for the exirg vs exirg2...

Ike

I didn't realize the Hondas have aluminum blocks as well, you just said cylinders. If one follows the other I appologize for my ignorance, I'm not an expert on engine technilogy. Who knows what the real numbers are and why/if the 2ZZ-GE is lighter. It seems all we've managed to prove is that it's almost impossible to come up with the definitive weights for any of these engines we've talked about.

Hanzo

I believe the Renesis has a wet-sump lubrication system is only about 1.5 inches deep, half that of the 13B.

Hanzo

Also remember the numbers you guys see on the spec sheets are dry weight. Depending on the displacement of the engine and other things they might require more oil which means heavier engine when it is actually running.

Subaru short block is about a size of a shoebox without all the piping, intake/exhaust manifold. It is probably smaller than the Renesis housing.

Hanzo

That's because the US version requires all the safety stuff. If you want a light lotus get the Caterham super 7.



I would love to own one as a second car.

Hanzo

I believe when the engine is weight it includes all accessories except for the transmission.

Honda's F20C might be heavier than the 2ZZ due to the extra displacement. Keep in mind that the 2ZZ is a 1.8L.

babylou

Yup, my bad on the displacements. However, 200 cc does not even come close to 73 lbs. Not close. I'm telling you guys, the 253 lbs is surely without accessories. I just don't have a verified piece of proof to back up my assertion.

shelleys_man_06

Ah the Series II Lotus Elise. Here in the States already? I can already smell the back creme from the rich old men driving this car. Seriously, this car is pretty sweet. One could only imagine how that car drives with the 2ZZ engine. I just asked my dad if he would trade in the 8 for the Elise, and he said "yeah." I then proceeded to bop him with the newspaper and yell, "that's a bad Mr. Kitty!" It's nice sports car, but I personally wouldn't own one. I'll keep my RX-8 until time ends :D .

picosrx8

Hot little car. Emphasis on little! I knew a guy who kept one on his yacht! Most yachties keep scooters for transportation in the islands. A friggin Lotus! Are you kiddin me?
Anyways, it has great looks and would be a nice toy to add to any collection. At 6'2" I couldnt fit in the MR2 cofortably. Doubt this would do us biguns much better.

Overport

I LOVE that car! The another good thing about it to is tall drivers fit well in it. You wouldnt think so because of how small the car is, but it can accomodate a 6'3" person no problem. And its packin' 190 whp. This number doesnt sound large, but with such a light body, it makes it really go. The Lotus Elise is gonna be my next car!

Ned M

iTrader: (2)

Elise is the only street car I'd give up my FD for at this time, but I can wait for the seller's market to pass or for used ones to come on the market in a year or two. I've wanted a Lotus for most of my life.

Gigolo Jason

You may be waiting longer then a year or two.

Do what I am doing, Keep your FD and just buy a Lotus. You will have a great long track car and a great short track car to drive as you please when you please.

Elara

I'd have to agree with Gigolo- there's a big waiting list already on the Elise- but good luck anyway! I hope we're both wrong and you can actually find a used one in a year or so!

Neddie Seagoon

The Lotus is nice... but the TVR Tuscan is Awesome:

Neddie Seagoon