Mazdatrix Titanium 13B Super Light Rotors
03-07-2012, 12:49 PM
#27
what i'm curious about is how sensitive the engine will be. That's a LOT of weight out of the rotating assembly. At a certain point it will be very hard to drive with a light flywheel and super light internals. Not to mention the potential loss in torque. I'm interested to see what these do on the dyno compared to normal rotors.
I just hope they duplicate any testing with the same setup and engine with just different rotors to see how the engine responds.
I just hope they duplicate any testing with the same setup and engine with just different rotors to see how the engine responds.
03-07-2012, 03:00 PM
#28
what i'm curious about is how sensitive the engine will be. That's a LOT of weight out of the rotating assembly. At a certain point it will be very hard to drive with a light flywheel and super light internals. Not to mention the potential loss in torque. I'm interested to see what these do on the dyno compared to normal rotors.
I just hope they duplicate any testing with the same setup and engine with just different rotors to see how the engine responds.
I just hope they duplicate any testing with the same setup and engine with just different rotors to see how the engine responds.
More interesting perhaps is what to make of Ti's heat conduction properties vs iron. It conducts heat ~1/4 as quickly as iron (and ~1/6 as fast as aluminum). I understand that the iron rotors depend on an insulating oil film to reduce heat transfer. Can the limited film on the irons achieve an optimum value or does it remain too high? If it is too high, there may be a chance that titanium rotors will increase mpg's and/or mpg. Of course the opposite may be true, that reduced heat conductance will cause something else to get too hot. Dunno, but will be fun to see test results.
Last edited by HiFlite999; 03-07-2012 at 03:10 PM.
03-07-2012, 03:06 PM
#29
Well, the heat has to go somewhere...
If it doesn't go into the oil by way of the rotor, then it will have to be absorbed by the water in the housings / irons. I wonder how much this additional heat will effect the res of the engine. I know you would have to increase the water cooling capacity of the engine. This would definitely make it require more than simply drop in and go if it is true.
If it doesn't go into the oil by way of the rotor, then it will have to be absorbed by the water in the housings / irons. I wonder how much this additional heat will effect the res of the engine. I know you would have to increase the water cooling capacity of the engine. This would definitely make it require more than simply drop in and go if it is true.
03-07-2012, 10:56 PM
#32
I just see a lot of questions
more pieces = more tolerances = more complexity = more potential issues
a lot of threaded connections under high stress and heat
how do they intend to keep combustion gases from getting past the joints and into the crankcase
might be potential there for the high end drag racers, not so sure about anyone else until more details come out
not to mention that they still have a way to go before anything is proven, I kind of wish they had waited until being able to provide tangible longer term results. there have been too many big plans that never materialized on this particular subject before ...
more pieces = more tolerances = more complexity = more potential issues
a lot of threaded connections under high stress and heat
how do they intend to keep combustion gases from getting past the joints and into the crankcase
might be potential there for the high end drag racers, not so sure about anyone else until more details come out
not to mention that they still have a way to go before anything is proven, I kind of wish they had waited until being able to provide tangible longer term results. there have been too many big plans that never materialized on this particular subject before ...
03-11-2012, 11:44 AM
#33
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The first pair of Mazdatrix Titanium/Aluminum rotors are being prepped for installation. We are taking our time fitting, clearancing, measuring, etc. as these are the first REAL/Finished pair. Weight is 5.98 POUNDS! as comprared to about 9 pounds for a generic OEM rotor (without bearings). Plans are for starting dyno testing about 3/16/12. Wish us luck. - Mazdatrix
03-11-2012, 06:56 PM
#35
mark i agree--i do hope they seal.
seems like this is not a new idea--some are already running a version--
The ally rotors were running in a full bridgeport 13b with Garret GT40/94 turbo at 1.3 bar boost on the road in an FD RX7.
We did two versions of ally so far so far both with Titanium inserts.
They fared well with the second set doing better with minor mods.
Each time we ran over 1000 miles before pulling the engine and stripping.
What was really noteceable was not the power but the way the engine revved and went through the revs so much quicker than Mazda rotors do.
I limited the revs to 9500.
Of course with the new rotors we have yet to run them but that will be soon.
I will give out more details as time goes on.
By the way we are running our own design apex seals.
The reason for Titanium now is the long term stability of the material and another reason that I am not wanting to reveal yet but it should be something good for the future!(I will reveal soon)
Regards
Carl
_________________
Hayward Rotary are high performance rotary engine specialist's in the UK.
We can build anything form a stock engine to a multirotor high power race engine.
http://www.mazdarotary.co.uk
seems like this is not a new idea--some are already running a version--
The ally rotors were running in a full bridgeport 13b with Garret GT40/94 turbo at 1.3 bar boost on the road in an FD RX7.
We did two versions of ally so far so far both with Titanium inserts.
They fared well with the second set doing better with minor mods.
Each time we ran over 1000 miles before pulling the engine and stripping.
What was really noteceable was not the power but the way the engine revved and went through the revs so much quicker than Mazda rotors do.
I limited the revs to 9500.
Of course with the new rotors we have yet to run them but that will be soon.
I will give out more details as time goes on.
By the way we are running our own design apex seals.
The reason for Titanium now is the long term stability of the material and another reason that I am not wanting to reveal yet but it should be something good for the future!(I will reveal soon)
Regards
Carl
_________________
Hayward Rotary are high performance rotary engine specialist's in the UK.
We can build anything form a stock engine to a multirotor high power race engine.
http://www.mazdarotary.co.uk
03-11-2012, 07:54 PM
#36
dont know if this will help you guys out, and i dont know if im sapposed to be telling anyone 
but carl hayward at haywards in the uk has been doing stuff like this for a while ... he says he drove a 7 with billet ally rotors in it to rotorstock a couple of years since ... anyway a picture says 1000 words 
finsihed ally rotor It weighs 3500grams.which is around 900 grams less than a fully dressed Mazda rotor you can see the titanium inserts in the apexs of the rotor
and the new titanium rotor ... that i know nothing about haha
but carl hayward at haywards in the uk has been doing stuff like this for a while ... he says he drove a 7 with billet ally rotors in it to rotorstock a couple of years since ... anyway a picture says 1000 words finsihed ally rotor It weighs 3500grams.which is around 900 grams less than a fully dressed Mazda rotor you can see the titanium inserts in the apexs of the rotor
and the new titanium rotor ... that i know nothing about haha
03-12-2012, 09:17 AM
#38
titanium rotor doesnt in itself increase power that much--going only by a recips response to titianum pistons in which they get maybe a 1-2% increase. What it does do is make the engine more responsive, strenghten the combustion chamber and makes better use of the combustion heat . I repeat if increasing the rpms to 10k with better ports looking for power etc--then you start needing a needle bearing e shaft and better e shaft support. You also will have to have a different pressure plate/clutch set up with trick balancing.
All being said--this part along with other modified parts will make one hell of a build.
Can you imagine a 3 rotor built with these things!?
I do wonder if this is a step toward allowing the rotary engine to operate at a higher temperature to help with thermal efficentcy? Maybe even a rotary diesal?
All being said--this part along with other modified parts will make one hell of a build.
Can you imagine a 3 rotor built with these things!?
I do wonder if this is a step toward allowing the rotary engine to operate at a higher temperature to help with thermal efficentcy? Maybe even a rotary diesal?
03-12-2012, 11:36 AM
#39
titanium rotor doesnt in itself increase power that much--going only by a recips response to titianum pistons in which they get maybe a 1-2% increase. What it does do is make the engine more responsive, strenghten the combustion chamber and makes better use of the combustion heat . I repeat if increasing the rpms to 10k with better ports looking for power etc--then you start needing a needle bearing e shaft and better e shaft support. You also will have to have a different pressure plate/clutch set up with trick balancing.
All being said--this part along with other modified parts will make one hell of a build.
Can you imagine a 3 rotor built with these things!?
I do wonder if this is a step toward allowing the rotary engine to operate at a higher temperature to help with thermal efficentcy? Maybe even a rotary diesal?
All being said--this part along with other modified parts will make one hell of a build.
Can you imagine a 3 rotor built with these things!?
I do wonder if this is a step toward allowing the rotary engine to operate at a higher temperature to help with thermal efficentcy? Maybe even a rotary diesal?
Needle/roller bearings will get you ~nothing over plain bearings. Susuki went that way with mid 70's bikes including the one I still have. While rollers make it much easier to turn by hand, as soon as the rpm/oil pressue is built up, the difference is minimal compared to plain. Another factor is rollers run with very low oil pressure and pretty much require a split crank to install.
Would be interesting to see the difference between Al and Ti, with their very different heat transfer characteristics.
03-12-2012, 11:44 AM
#40
Wrt efficiency: The most efficient piston engines, such as in the Prius, trick a normal engine into thinking it's Atkinson cycle by leaving the intake valves open too long, resulting in a compression stroke shorter than the power stroke. It might be possible to do something similar by grooving intake ports to overlap into the compression phase and upping the geometric c.r. to compensate.
03-13-2012, 08:21 AM
#41
thats an interesting concept in the rotary and that may be very useful to a multifuel engine?
In the future with DI maybe they will also redesign the rotor depression?
True maybe not a needle bearing e shaft IF the oil can do the high rpm job. But mid shaft support will definity be needed for a 10K rpm engine.
Stationary gears will also have to be redesigned? Even with lighter rotors?
In the future with DI maybe they will also redesign the rotor depression?
True maybe not a needle bearing e shaft IF the oil can do the high rpm job. But mid shaft support will definity be needed for a 10K rpm engine.
Stationary gears will also have to be redesigned? Even with lighter rotors?
03-13-2012, 08:41 AM
#42
Wrt efficiency: The most efficient piston engines, such as in the Prius, trick a normal engine into thinking it's Atkinson cycle by leaving the intake valves open too long, resulting in a compression stroke shorter than the power stroke. It might be possible to do something similar by grooving intake ports to overlap into the compression phase and upping the geometric c.r. to compensate.
I'm not even really in the right thread to get too far with this thought so I'll stop here
.Paul.
06-14-2012, 06:06 AM
#46
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Updates !!
"Test engine FINALLY being assembled with our Titanium Rotors!
We were "down" for many weeks while we made new rotor gears. The first set were warped in heat treating. These new gears have EDM'd teeth - came out great. Please remember this whole project is VERY experimental. It may be 2 weeks before the engine is on the dyno as we have a crazy week scheduled for next week. We will keep everyone informed as we progress, and have the time to post here." - Mazdatrix
