^Yeah, pretty good article!!

 

Decent article. I can say that being a career journalist.

But as a rotary guy, this writer tries but does not get the rotary, and that is ok. If Mazda makes the car, the folks who love rotaries will buy it and new converts will be made,too.

 

Dear Mr. Nicolas Stecher,

If the Wankel Rotary Engine -- invented in the 1950's -- is according to you "archaic", then how would you describe the -- invented before the Civil War -- piston engine?

Every Wired article I've read in the last few years is filled with these kind of lazy fallacies.

.

 

Here's another article on the direction Mazda is heading regarding the rotary.

Mazda rotary engine may lose its spark | Fox News

 

Japan auto industry: Mazda toying with revival of rotary engine- Nikkei Asian Review

TOKYO -- The rotary engine may make a comeback at Mazda Motor after the Japanese automaker stopped making the engine in 2012. Auto enthusiasts and Mazda engineers are all geared up to celebrate the return of the company's signature engine, but others, including management, are still cool to the idea, given the company's checkered past despite a strong financial position in recent years.

"We gave form to our dream for the future," Mazda President Masamichi Kogai said at the Tokyo Motor Show on Oct. 28 last year as he unveiled the RX-Vision concept car equipped with a rotary engine. The flat, streamlined design, modeled on a cheetah, was possible only with a rotary engine. "It is the ultimate styling for a front-engine, rear-wheel drive sports car," he said.

Mazda fans gave high marks to the concept car. "When I was a student, I longed to buy [Mazda's RE-equipped] Savanna but I couldn't afford it. So I'll definitely buy this one," a 63-year-old company executive said at the event. Another Mazda fan, a 35-year-old businessman who sat on the floor gazing at the car, said: "The RE is special. I want to test-drive it if a new RE model comes out." The car received over 20,000 "likes" on Facebook overnight after it was unveiled.

Mazda engineers are also eager to revive the engine. Kiyoshi Fujiwara, a managing executive officer who is in charge of research and development, is confident that "The path to overcoming technical hurdles is almost clear." The company will soon be able to find technical solutions to fundamental rotary engine-specific problems, such as environmental issues and poor durability due to the structure of the engine.

Kogai, however, remains cautious. He emphasized that restructuring is not complete and said he will "tackle it in order to build a solid business foundation." He also told journalists at the exhibition that he does "not know yet" whether he plans to commercialize the concept car or not.

Profits zooming

Mazda has been upbeat financially. In the six months to September, it posted 125.9 billion yen ($1.03 billion) in group operating profit, up 21% on the year and a record for the period, thanks partly to record sales of 764,000 units. Sales were boosted by the popularity of its Skyactiv green technology and unique designs. "Mazda's strategy to pursue technological perfection hit the mark," said Kenji Hanawa, head of the economic and industrial research department of the Development Bank of Japan. "Now Mazda has no blind spots," he added.

But the lustrous performances are a far cry from a near-death experience just five years ago. The automaker suffered a sharp drop in sales after the collapse of U.S. brokerage Lehman Brothers in 2008. In 2009, it raised some 100 billion yen through public share offerings, but was forced to raise an additional 170 billion yen in 2012 following the yen's appreciation in the aftermath of the Japan's catastrophic 2011 earthquake and tsunami.

"Mazda is not a financially stable company yet," one executive said. Developing a new model generally costs tens of billions of yen. A new rotary engine model means a second sports car in Mazda's current lineup alongside the Roadster. That seems out of step with the shrinking sports car market amid a boom in the popularity of eco-friendly cars. "The high expectations are understandable, but we can't do things that are unprofitable," the executive said.

Car dealers are not so enthusiastic either. "There goes the bad Mazda again," said an executive at a major dealership, referring to the automaker's repeated cycle of good earnings, investment expansion and then troubles.

 

While the above looks promising, there are so many hurdles to overcome, I hope they get there, but!...NOT at the expense of going broke.

And the very last paragraph is EXACTLY what Mazda Dealers think, they don't want another unreliable (in their eyes) RE....sadly it is a fact, they have to sell the product.

What I have said and I will say it again, Mazda can not afford to release ANY RE without proper investment and reliability tests on EVERY Continent with a prototype mule (for engine) running on each continent in real world conditions for a at least 12-18 months.
Proper long range testing..
Like they once did..

 

Then they should do things slightly differently this time.
Design the new car around the RE, but, initially release it to the public with the Turbo SkyActiv engine. It will be a bit more nose heavy, but still have good power, good fuel economy, and fantastic reliability.

Then after a year or so of testing with the RE, like you recommend, release a MS version, in limited numbers (500 to 1k units a year, for racing needs), and that's how you release the RE version of the car to the enthusiasts who want one, without making one entire model of car completely exposed to the negative possibility of the RE, if things go south again.

The RE car would then have the better handling, and even more power than the turbo SA-G version does. Bilstein suspension, limited slip differential, high end interior, or go the way Porsche and Ferrari does, and charge more for the more powerful, less contented version.

Everyone knows Mazda needs to do things differently than the mainstream brands.
It is time they elevate themselves above Toyota, Honda, Subaru, and directly compete with BMW and Porsche to get the market audience that is willing to pay a premium price for the product they build.

BC.

 

^^ might as we just do that with the new Miata and release an"RX-5" or MX-5R with the new Rotary in it.

 

Honestly, I doubt a Mazda rotary engine sportscar will ever see the light of day if they ever produce a piston-engine sports car with more than 250 HP.
I just don't think the market segment is big enough to support two Mazdas on the same platform where one of them will have an atrocious reputation right out of the gate.

Also, Mazda doesn't like turbocharging in performance cars (they've said as much about the MX-5).

I hope it doesn't happen with Mazda, but going mainstream seems to have worked pretty well for Subaru. Their cars aren't nearly as interesting as they were a decade ago but they're more successful as a company.

 

So I'm guessing we aren't going to see the rumored 6 coupe with the new turbocharged CX-9 engine either.

 

Subaru's success can be regarded as 60% vehicle functionality (awd, nearly all crossovers/wagons/image) and 40% marketing/branding.

Mazda, as everyone loves to say, is absolutely horrendous at marketing.

Subaru also has 2 vehicles that can serve the enthusiast crowd, the BRZ and the WRX.

In Dec 2015, the Miata outsold the BRZ - 706 - 413.
New car to market versus one that is long in the tooth at this point.

The Subaru Legacy outsold the Mazda 6 - 5,759 - 4,168.
Remember, Subaru barely advertises the Legacy.

The Mazda 3 outsold the Subaru Impreza - 9,838 - 9,148, but included in that number for Subaru are 3,089 WRX/STi sales, something the enthusiast can buy.
So this is really a solid win for Mazda.

Once you start looking at crossovers/suv's, Mazda simply gets pummelled:

CX-3 - 1,663
CX-5 - 11,417
CX-9 - 1,202

Outback - 16,067
Crosstek - 8,090
Forester - 16,797

Crossovers/SUV's are more profitable than cars, so Subaru is raking in more money every month just with those sales alone.

How does Mazda fix that?
Do they want to?
Should they?

BC.

 

Well, Mazda has certainly done a good job pissing on the enthusiast crowd. I'd say some of Subaru's WRX/Sti sales are almost guaranteed by default since other affordable high performance options barely exist. I'm going to replace my 8 soon and there's just nothing from Mazda to replace it with even though I'd like to be buying another Mazda. I'll more than likely end up in a WRX.

 

The are either

A) already doing this with the ND, releasing a chassis with a SkyActive piston engine that will later be released with a rotary in it,

or B) can't do it at all because as noted in the article above:
If they build a car that is only possible to design it that way with a rotary engine, then they simply can't release an early version with a piston engine.

 

Yeah, I'm not that worried about the Mazda concept vehicle being even remotely on the same plane as what a real vehicle would be if they release another vehicle with an RE. That thing is designed like a Mercedes SLS, with the obscenely long hood, and passenger cabin practically on top of the wheels.

That weight distribution won't play well with how Mazda likes it's cars to handle.

Ultimately, Mazda needs to decide what cars it would have it's RE vehicle compete against before it can decide on body style/application/power output.

If they decided to compete with the BMW M2, they would have to build one type of car, but it would be entirely different design if they wanted to go up against the Porsche Cayman, and yet even more different if they decided it was the Porsche 911 as their primary target.

And of course, those are 3 different price ranges, though there's lots of overlap between the M2 and the Cayman, where as the 911 is over $30k more.

How much are Mazda sports car enthusiasts willing to pay for a top tier sports car with a Mazda badge on it? I plunked down decent money for my Cayman back in June, and honestly, I would have been willing to spend the same amount if there was a Mazda badge on the Cayman instead of a Porsche emblem. The car is just that good.

BC.

 

Honestly, I don't think they should be aiming that high. I can't see very many people seriously cross-shopping ANY Mazda against a BMW or Porsche. The brands just don't intersect for 95% of the car-buying public.

I don't see how they can keep going with the horrendous reputation that the RE has. It was bad before the Renesis came around and it's even worse now.

IMO, Mazda needs to build a budget sports car that beats the 370Z and Toyobaru twins and then they can leverage the increased buying power of those younger buyers as they mature. Get them hooked young (like smoking or religion) and then build on top of it with something more expensive. Start off with conventional weapons (pistons and turbos) and then migrate those owners into RE-powered product in a more premium tier.

 

Mazda's "budget" sportscar is the MX-5. They won't compete with themselves and build another one in the same category. Mazda execs have already hinted that their target for the RX-Vision is the Porsche Cayman, so Mazds IS going upscale with any next RE car and going after the Porsche and BMW buyer. As a former RX7 FD owner, that car did compete with Porsche in performance and was priced accordingly. Whether this is successful strategy for Mazda remains to be seen.

 

If this is in fact Mazda's thinking, they are making a huge mistake. I'm sure there are many more like myself that want an affordable sports car, but not a convertible. If Mazda won't offer a high performance coupe of some sort, they've lost a lot of potential customers. I think people interested in the MX-5 would not be cross shopping things like the twins or the 370Z.

 

That is bullshit marketing. And as we all know, "marketing" is a synonym for lying. That hood is long enough and high enough to fit a V12! Mazda, much as I love them, has spouted that same lie with every generation of RX. Yet every generation of RX has had various LS and LT engines comfortably ensconced under the hood. Even the FD - which the lie might have held true on - easily and non-destructively swallows LS6 engines like they were made for them.

FTFY.

It was not a successful strategy. It was a big factor in Mazda's near-death experience in the late '90s.

Preach it, Brother!

 

Your blind bias is showing again.

Nobody in the current car market with the cash for a Cayman or a M2 is going to be thinking ANYTHING AT ALL about Mazda.

Mazdas are nice and are certainly a far greater value proposition but I don't think any Mazda most expensive vehicle, fully optioned and accessorized is still $10k less than the starting price of the cheapest Cayman. Whatever overlap between Mazda and any performance luxury brand you think existed in the past definitely does not exist now.

OH MY GOD THIS! I have a ton of respect for the MX-5 but I want something with a permanent roof. Hell, I don't even want a sunroof.

I can't see any DudeBro's in coed naked lacrosse T-shirts power-chugging watered-down Meisterchau shopping for a 300+HP sportscar and then going to Mazda's website to look at a 150HP roadster and thinking, "Yah, that chick car will get me way more tail."

 

I'm currently cross shopping Mazda and BMW so I disagree. I currently have a 335i and I would be considering a M2 or an RE as a former RX-8 owner.
Just because I can afford an M2 doesn't mean I wouldn't cross shop a cheaper car with excellent performance from Mazda. Don't confuse BMW owners with Supercar owners.

 

When the FD RX7 was introduced with a host of glowing performance reviews in 1992 and I bought mine new, it DID draw buyers that had been looking at Porsche and other competitors. If you check the historical reporting on the FD, its demise in the US was attributed, by major automotive writers, to a combination of many factors, including its high insurance costs, and its small interior size with didn't fit many American perfromance car buyers comfortably. The car soldiered on in Japan until 2002 where the average performance car buyers fit it better and the car culture is different.

Sorry, NotAPreppie , I guess you are just too young to really know anything about this.

 

You're cross shopping against A FARKING CONCEPT THAT MAY NEVER SEE THE LIGHT OF DAY AND HAS ABSOLUTELY ZERO SOLID, PUBLISHED INFORMATION!!!! It doesn't even exist. For all intents and purposes, it's as real as a crayon drawing on somebody's fridge. Do you get how crazy that sounds?

Normal luxury buyers mostly buy based on prestige and perceived comfort. We aren't normal. We drive frickin' rotaries: we're nowhere near normal (or sane). Also, the plural of anecdote is not evidence.

Your ongoing obsession with raw performance figures and paid advertising masquerading as auto journalism is adorable, as is your perennial condescension.

Oh wait, no, I meant "obnoxious". Sorry, I get those two mixed up all the time.

Regardless, what does any of that have to do with my point? I mean, it reads like a giant non sequitur. If there's an actual argument in there, you're going to have to connect it to mine in some way for it to work as some sort of rebuttal.

 

As a career and award-winning journalist for the past four decades, I not only reported about the FD RX7 when it was introduced to the US back in 1992, and it's demise in the US market after just three years, but I owned one.

Back then in 1992 a Porsche 911 was newly priced from $32,000 to $47,000 (depending on equipment). My Grand Touring (fully loaded) FD RX7 listed for $38,000. Mazda dealerships back then got just a few of the FDs and they sold them for list price and more, as the demand was great. And yes some potential Porsche and BMW owners wanted them and bought them. And yes the high insurance costs and small size played a part in its exit from the US market. Mazda won't make the same mistakes with any RX-Vision (if it actually makes it to market, which is in some doubt)

I am not here to waste my time in any rebuttal to you. This is the RX-Vision thread.
My point was simple, that Mazda execs have already hinted (on the record after the Japan auto show) that they are aiming for the Porsche Cayman. That being said, the wishes that the next RX (if it is even ever built) will be aimed at the lower end of the sports car market are not realistic. This RX-Vision will be Mazda's flagship and with its new technology and performance, will be priced accordingly, in my opinion.

 

I hate to point out the obvious, but the whole point of a car company releasing concept cars is to get a feel for the people who have money in the enthusiast automotive market, and see if they can get any interest in this new direction for product development.

What would have happened if the first Kodo design concept was heavily panned by the world? Would Mazda still have released it, or would they have altered it?

The same thing applies to sports car concepts.

Last February, when my wife and I decided to pull the trigger on our 2015 Cayman, if Mazda had ANY form of high end sports car, we would have 100% cross shopped it. Our experiences with Mazda vehicles has been overwhelmingly positive, and they KNOW how to make a sports car handle fantastically. That was our #1 requirement for our new sports car.

That made our shopping list extremely short, however.

People who buy sports cars are not normal people.
You are talking about the group of car buyers with LOTS of disposable cash for an emotional toy to add to the garage.

I can't wait until Mazda stops teasing us, and gives us something we can actually purchase. I'm in the lucky position in life that money isn't much of a concern for this market segment of car.

BC.

 

I don't exactly know what was said but if this is true, they are talking out of both sides of their mouth. They've also said for a new rotary powered car they need a lot of customers and volume for the investment to make sense. As a Cayman competitor they would have an extremely low volume due to price. They can't have both.