Mazda CEO officially rules out RX rebirth- again
06-18-2014, 08:58 AM
#251
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I cant find any "data sheet" with "official figures", i'll leave that burden of proof to you. But a quick internet search turned up:
fully dressed Renesis ~265 pounds
fully dressed Duratec V6 ~360 pounds
so about a hundred pounds hunkered down in the engine bay, la dee f---ing dah
fully dressed Renesis ~265 pounds
fully dressed Duratec V6 ~360 pounds
so about a hundred pounds hunkered down in the engine bay, la dee f---ing dah
06-18-2014, 09:06 AM
#252
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Yes I addressed that, I was saying that the engine weight would be favorably positioned as compared to the weight of a passenger, and that the passenger weight already only added about a third of a second to a typical autoccross run, so whats the big deal.
This isnt even taking into account the added power and torque. Putting that engine in our car would leave you with a more capable and sustainable car, and if mazda takes the time to apply some of their skyactive chassis technology to the chassis (using high strength steels and other weight saving techniques theyre already using) then it could ultimately end up lighter as well.
My point is that chassis design is clearly something that Mazda are good at, and they shouldnt back out of the sports car game just because the rotary is gone.
This isnt even taking into account the added power and torque. Putting that engine in our car would leave you with a more capable and sustainable car, and if mazda takes the time to apply some of their skyactive chassis technology to the chassis (using high strength steels and other weight saving techniques theyre already using) then it could ultimately end up lighter as well.
My point is that chassis design is clearly something that Mazda are good at, and they shouldnt back out of the sports car game just because the rotary is gone.
06-18-2014, 09:19 AM
#253
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except the rx-8 chassis production line is long gone, the ford v6 has a worse reliability history than the renesis, mazda is looking to replace the cx-9 v6 with something else, and mazda wants to end all ties to ford.
except all that... sure sounds like a good idea to me. graphs out well!
Posted From RX8Club.com Android App
except all that... sure sounds like a good idea to me. graphs out well!
Posted From RX8Club.com Android App
06-18-2014, 09:31 AM
#254
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Again the point is that there is still plenty of resources within mazda to create a sports coupe that slots in above the Miata in the same vein as the RX8. Even if it were powered by a strong 4 cylinder or even God forbid a diesel, as long as it can complement the chassis.
I only suggested the Ford V6 because it could be (in product development terms) pretty cheap and easy to implement. I'm sure that they still have many of the capital goods that were used to make the RX8 chassis or could repurpose some of the stuff from the outgoing miata line. All the particulars about it are irrelevant to the fact that MAZDA ARE GOOD AT MAKING SPORTS CARS AND THEY SHOULD CONTINUE TO DO SO.
I dont care what its powered by, I just want a sublime chassis and a powertrain that doesnt straight up let that chassis down.
You guys are talking like youre content with the fact that Mazda are out of the sports coupe business, im suprised more people arnt talking about what Mazda should or could do rather than what they cant do.
If you think my suggestions are bogus than after youve said so, progress the conversation further by throwing in a suggestion of your own.
Thoughts?
I only suggested the Ford V6 because it could be (in product development terms) pretty cheap and easy to implement. I'm sure that they still have many of the capital goods that were used to make the RX8 chassis or could repurpose some of the stuff from the outgoing miata line. All the particulars about it are irrelevant to the fact that MAZDA ARE GOOD AT MAKING SPORTS CARS AND THEY SHOULD CONTINUE TO DO SO.
I dont care what its powered by, I just want a sublime chassis and a powertrain that doesnt straight up let that chassis down.
You guys are talking like youre content with the fact that Mazda are out of the sports coupe business, im suprised more people arnt talking about what Mazda should or could do rather than what they cant do.
If you think my suggestions are bogus than after youve said so, progress the conversation further by throwing in a suggestion of your own.
Thoughts?
06-18-2014, 09:54 AM
#255
How exactly have you validated that the 'weight would be favorably positioned'? 100lbs of extra engine, moved closer to the nose, and most likely raised up would contribute to various forces and moments that could completely ruin the performance of the chassis. Positioning could turn 100lbs of static weight to a vast amount of dynamic force, more importantly placed at locations where you dont want it.
As i said before, what makes the chassis 'work' so well is the combination of the components and their placement and harmonics.
You can't really go out making bold claims without any sense of knowledge of how statics and dynamics play into the whole. This being more than likely why no one else has made other 'suggestions'.
Last edited by paimon.soror; 06-18-2014 at 09:56 AM.
06-18-2014, 10:07 AM
#257
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you seem to have missed the whole part about me saying "as compared to a passenger"
weight added to the engine will be lower down as compared to a passenger, and the difference in the effect of moment of the engine the engine and the moment of a passenger seems pretty trivial when were talking about adding only half the weight of a passenger and settling it lower in the chassis than a passenger.
Again, go back and take the time to read what i said, I was getting at the fact that a passenger makes a negligible difference and that i implied that the engine wouldnt make much difference either, and any change would be more than made up for my more favorable power, torque, fuel efficiency and marketability.
weight added to the engine will be lower down as compared to a passenger, and the difference in the effect of moment of the engine the engine and the moment of a passenger seems pretty trivial when were talking about adding only half the weight of a passenger and settling it lower in the chassis than a passenger.
Again, go back and take the time to read what i said, I was getting at the fact that a passenger makes a negligible difference and that i implied that the engine wouldnt make much difference either, and any change would be more than made up for my more favorable power, torque, fuel efficiency and marketability.
06-18-2014, 10:22 AM
#260
I think the problem is how you stated it all. You basically suggested replacing the rotary engine in the rx with something else. The whole point of an rx is the rotary and how the chassis works with it. Look at the 3rd Gen Rx7, it was down around 70hp to everything else it was pitted against (Supra, 300Z, VR4) and still held its own due to the compactness and weight of the Rotary. I think everyone here would be happy with the idea of Mazda making a sports coupe again, who wouldnt given the ability of Mazda to make such fine handling vehicles. You can't expect anyone around here to like the idea of calling it an Rx?? with no rotary (what you initially proposed).
Who knows if they aren't already working on the next SC, or even Rx? They have been pretty deliberate of this entire rollout of new vehicles to much success and fanfare. It seems to me they have to finish the Miata rollout, then the Cx9 is next up. After that, well then we will probably be looking a possibly a new Halo car, be it a new Rx or some sort of sports coupe as long as they keep making money like they are now.
Who knows if they aren't already working on the next SC, or even Rx? They have been pretty deliberate of this entire rollout of new vehicles to much success and fanfare. It seems to me they have to finish the Miata rollout, then the Cx9 is next up. After that, well then we will probably be looking a possibly a new Halo car, be it a new Rx or some sort of sports coupe as long as they keep making money like they are now.
... I see what you did there!!!!
06-18-2014, 11:03 AM
#262
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I think the problem is how you stated it all. You basically suggested replacing the rotary engine in the rx with something else. The whole point of an rx is the rotary and how the chassis works with it. Look at the 3rd Gen Rx7, it was down around 70hp to everything else it was pitted against (Supra, 300Z, VR4) and still held its own due to the compactness and weight of the Rotary. I think everyone here would be happy with the idea of Mazda making a sports coupe again, who wouldnt given the ability of Mazda to make such fine handling vehicles. You can't expect anyone around here to like the idea of calling it an Rx?? with no rotary (what you initially proposed).
Who knows if they aren't already working on the next SC, or even Rx? They have been pretty deliberate of this entire rollout of new vehicles to much success and fanfare. It seems to me they have to finish the Miata rollout, then the Cx9 is next up. After that, well then we will probably be looking a possibly a new Halo car, be it a new Rx or some sort of sports coupe as long as they keep making money like they are now.
Who knows if they aren't already working on the next SC, or even Rx? They have been pretty deliberate of this entire rollout of new vehicles to much success and fanfare. It seems to me they have to finish the Miata rollout, then the Cx9 is next up. After that, well then we will probably be looking a possibly a new Halo car, be it a new Rx or some sort of sports coupe as long as they keep making money like they are now.
When you look at global production there wasnt an interupt between the RX7 and RX8, it just wouldve been nice if they had started development long enough ago to where they'd be able to roll on with the roll outs so to speak and keep making a halo car without interuption and bring us a halo car thats marketable in the modern world. Perhaps if they done that already then maybe there wouldnt be a BRZ in my driveway.
06-18-2014, 11:07 AM
#263
I don't think you understand... We're talking about a new RX Mazda sports car, not a V6 Mazda sports car. If you take the rotary out, it's no longer an RX platform, which is what this thread is in reference to. Maybe i'll try something simpler.
Mazda made RX platform around rotary engine. Take out rotary engine, no longer RX platform. This thread is in reference to wanting a new RX sports car.
Hope that's simple enough...
Mazda made RX platform around rotary engine. Take out rotary engine, no longer RX platform. This thread is in reference to wanting a new RX sports car.
Hope that's simple enough...
06-18-2014, 11:10 AM
#264
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Seems to me the thread title is "It's is OFFICIAL Rotary Engine 'No Plans Now'..says new Mazda Japan CEO " This thread title seems to allow for two paths to consider within it:
You can either cry about the engine going away and hope they bring it back, or you can roll with the punches and look at alternatives, my only point all along was that i hope the end of the rotary does not lead to the end of Mazda performance vehicles (Miata notwithstanding)
You can either cry about the engine going away and hope they bring it back, or you can roll with the punches and look at alternatives, my only point all along was that i hope the end of the rotary does not lead to the end of Mazda performance vehicles (Miata notwithstanding)
06-18-2014, 11:19 AM
#265
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This argument appears to be akin to a homeowner mentioning that they already dug up all the grass in their yard and replaced it with concrete, and someone else arguing that instead of using grass, maybe they should use bushes. It's irrelevant.
The RX-8's Chassis is gone. Period. They will not rebuild the entire production line to produce it again.
If you are arguing that Mazda should produce a sports car with the advanced chassis technology with a non-piston engine in it, .... they have. It is the MX-5. It is a RWD sports car chassis with a piston engine in it. Not enough? How about the the MX-5 ND series chassis, which has already been annouced to be scalable to other RWD models, models which have not yet been produced, but could take whatever engine Mazda decides to put in it, rotary or piston or ram jet or steam.
It seems a pointless argument to say that they should do something that they are already doing?
The RX-8's Chassis is gone. Period. They will not rebuild the entire production line to produce it again.
If you are arguing that Mazda should produce a sports car with the advanced chassis technology with a non-piston engine in it, .... they have. It is the MX-5. It is a RWD sports car chassis with a piston engine in it. Not enough? How about the the MX-5 ND series chassis, which has already been annouced to be scalable to other RWD models, models which have not yet been produced, but could take whatever engine Mazda decides to put in it, rotary or piston or ram jet or steam.
It seems a pointless argument to say that they should do something that they are already doing?
06-18-2014, 11:37 AM
#266
they dont have to keep calling it RX-8 if it'll make 5 members of the RX8club forum cry, they can name it something else. MX-9? Who cares?
There are plenty of very focused sports cars powered by roughly 300 horsepower 6-cylinder engines, currently and historically. The RX8 chassis is too good to go unused and I'd prefer to see it live on with a more marketable powertrain.
It's really not as ridiculous a proposition as you guys are making it out to be. Mazda already use this engine and as long as theyre paying the liscensing fees to Ford or whatever they have to do to use it in the CX-9 they might as well dust off their RX8 building equipment and put a sportscar out on the market again. Rotary or not.
Like I said the RX8 chassis is too go to let it go to waste.
There are plenty of very focused sports cars powered by roughly 300 horsepower 6-cylinder engines, currently and historically. The RX8 chassis is too good to go unused and I'd prefer to see it live on with a more marketable powertrain.
It's really not as ridiculous a proposition as you guys are making it out to be. Mazda already use this engine and as long as theyre paying the liscensing fees to Ford or whatever they have to do to use it in the CX-9 they might as well dust off their RX8 building equipment and put a sportscar out on the market again. Rotary or not.
Like I said the RX8 chassis is too go to let it go to waste.
This argument appears to be akin to a homeowner mentioning that they already dug up all the grass in their yard and replaced it with concrete, and someone else arguing that instead of using grass, maybe they should use bushes. It's irrelevant.
The RX-8's Chassis is gone. Period. They will not rebuild the entire production line to produce it again.
If you are arguing that Mazda should produce a sports car with the advanced chassis technology with a non-piston engine in it, .... they have. It is the MX-5. It is a RWD sports car chassis with a piston engine in it. Not enough? How about the the MX-5 ND series chassis, which has already been annouced to be scalable to other RWD models, models which have not yet been produced, but could take whatever engine Mazda decides to put in it, rotary or piston or ram jet or steam.
It seems a pointless argument to say that they should do something that they are already doing?
The RX-8's Chassis is gone. Period. They will not rebuild the entire production line to produce it again.
If you are arguing that Mazda should produce a sports car with the advanced chassis technology with a non-piston engine in it, .... they have. It is the MX-5. It is a RWD sports car chassis with a piston engine in it. Not enough? How about the the MX-5 ND series chassis, which has already been annouced to be scalable to other RWD models, models which have not yet been produced, but could take whatever engine Mazda decides to put in it, rotary or piston or ram jet or steam.
It seems a pointless argument to say that they should do something that they are already doing?
Last edited by SayNoToPistons; 06-18-2014 at 11:42 AM.
06-18-2014, 11:40 AM
#267
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This argument appears to be akin to a homeowner mentioning that they already dug up all the grass in their yard and replaced it with concrete, and someone else arguing that instead of using grass, maybe they should use bushes. It's irrelevant.
The RX-8's Chassis is gone. Period. They will not rebuild the entire production line to produce it again.
If you are arguing that Mazda should produce a sports car with the advanced chassis technology with a non-piston engine in it, .... they have. It is the MX-5. It is a RWD sports car chassis with a piston engine in it. Not enough? How about the the MX-5 ND series chassis, which has already been annouced to be scalable to other RWD models, models which have not yet been produced, but could take whatever engine Mazda decides to put in it, rotary or piston or ram jet or steam.
It seems a pointless argument to say that they should do something that they are already doing?
The RX-8's Chassis is gone. Period. They will not rebuild the entire production line to produce it again.
If you are arguing that Mazda should produce a sports car with the advanced chassis technology with a non-piston engine in it, .... they have. It is the MX-5. It is a RWD sports car chassis with a piston engine in it. Not enough? How about the the MX-5 ND series chassis, which has already been annouced to be scalable to other RWD models, models which have not yet been produced, but could take whatever engine Mazda decides to put in it, rotary or piston or ram jet or steam.
It seems a pointless argument to say that they should do something that they are already doing?
I didnt really follow your metaphor but the suggestion of using the 8 chassis was making a ton of assumptions about Mazdas capital situation since im not an insider, for all i know the stuff is just sitting there collecting dust, not likely but i have no way to check. I'm sure plenty of reasons exist why the band-aid solution of putting a piston engine in the old chassis isnt viable.
and yeah i was saying the miata isnt enough, I'd like a 2+2 thanks.
Mazda say V6 production is ineveitable, what better teething platform than a halo car? Hell they might even convince their engineers to work on it after hours for free, hmm i wonder if they ever tried THAT.
06-18-2014, 11:41 AM
#268
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06-18-2014, 11:47 AM
#269
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At the risk of linking garbage, there is no "ineveitability" about a V6. Mazda is far more likely to turbocharge an existing engine than they are to build a V6 variant. After all, they are already dealing with the turbo tech on the SkyActive diesel.
CX-9 losing Ford V6: Mazda 2016 CX-9 - Next-gen Mazda CX-9 to downsize | GoAuto
Mazda unsure of whether they will go SkyActive V6 or turbocharge an existing SkyActive engine: Mazda Mulls Turbocharging, SkyActiv Six-Cylinder » AutoGuide.com News
And a dealer's blog that says turbo will happen: Next-Generation Mazda CX-9 | Mazda of Lodi however also mentions that a V6 will happen, but is the only reference i've seen.
As far as scalability, the link I had is now dead, so I am not sure what happened to it. It is easy common sense however. Every single SkyActive chassis they have made has been scalable. It makes financial and economical sense. Can you find a reason why they wouldn't make the ND chassis scalable? It already has to go under 2 different cars (MX-5 and The Alpha/Fiat). Hell, they could even put it under an alternate version of a Mazda6.
Yes, many of us want a rotary. You don't. Fortunately for you, there are many many options out there. So forgive us our desires and just go get something that fits what you want.
CX-9 losing Ford V6: Mazda 2016 CX-9 - Next-gen Mazda CX-9 to downsize | GoAuto
Mazda unsure of whether they will go SkyActive V6 or turbocharge an existing SkyActive engine: Mazda Mulls Turbocharging, SkyActiv Six-Cylinder » AutoGuide.com News
And a dealer's blog that says turbo will happen: Next-Generation Mazda CX-9 | Mazda of Lodi however also mentions that a V6 will happen, but is the only reference i've seen.
As far as scalability, the link I had is now dead, so I am not sure what happened to it. It is easy common sense however. Every single SkyActive chassis they have made has been scalable. It makes financial and economical sense. Can you find a reason why they wouldn't make the ND chassis scalable? It already has to go under 2 different cars (MX-5 and The Alpha/Fiat). Hell, they could even put it under an alternate version of a Mazda6.
Yes, many of us want a rotary. You don't. Fortunately for you, there are many many options out there. So forgive us our desires and just go get something that fits what you want.
06-18-2014, 11:56 AM
#272
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Yes I get all that, I was just pointing out that higher power level engines are in consideration for development. I've already said that i dont really care how it happens, V6, turbo 4, hell even if its a diesel i just want a sporty 2+2 with an engine that complements the chassis. It seems like the pieces are all in place and theyre just being coy about making any announcements because they dont want to disappoint if they dont deliver.
06-18-2014, 11:58 AM
#273
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Hardly coy. They are busy. They have released a new major model overhaul / generation every year for the past 3 years, despite having dismal financial losses. It is paying them back hugely now, setting record profits, but they are still overhauling their entire existing line, and doing it REALLY quickly by comparison.
They will release something new at some point, but not before the current overhauls are complete.
They will release something new at some point, but not before the current overhauls are complete.
06-18-2014, 12:21 PM
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I guess i have never really understood people that complain about Mazda not releasing a piston engine in an RX chassis. So you don't want the rotary, and want a piston engine in a well handling chassis. Fine, there is no problem with that at all. What's more, there are lots of options out there for that, at varying price points, ages, power levels, styles, interior quality, reliability, and efficiencies.
So why not just go get something that you enjoy? You have options. Those of us that love the rotary, don't. So leave us to what we want, and go get what you want. Is it so hard to avoid trying to impose your desires on top of what we want?
For example, go get a Cayman. Used ones are in the price range that you could expect a new RWD sports car from Mazda, with similar (if not better) chassis/handling, and a piston engine with quite a bit more power than the RX-8. Or a BMW 3 series if you want more seats, that is also much more moddable. Etc...
Stop complaining that a car that isn't made yet that you wouldn't buy doesn't have the attributes you want. And just go get what you DO want. It's really that simple.
So why not just go get something that you enjoy? You have options. Those of us that love the rotary, don't. So leave us to what we want, and go get what you want. Is it so hard to avoid trying to impose your desires on top of what we want?
For example, go get a Cayman. Used ones are in the price range that you could expect a new RWD sports car from Mazda, with similar (if not better) chassis/handling, and a piston engine with quite a bit more power than the RX-8. Or a BMW 3 series if you want more seats, that is also much more moddable. Etc...
Stop complaining that a car that isn't made yet that you wouldn't buy doesn't have the attributes you want. And just go get what you DO want. It's really that simple.
Last edited by RIWWP; 06-18-2014 at 01:32 PM.