A Love Letter to Mazda
10-23-2019, 02:25 PM
#1
A Love Letter to Mazda
Dear Mazda,
It was the late 90's and I had been saving for my first vehicle. After much contemplation and Autotrader magazines, my first car was a 1990 RX-7 GTU. This is where my love story starts and has only continued to expand over these past 20 years. As much as I care for the rotary experiments, my appreciation comes from a different place.
Felix Wankel is the creator of the rotary engine and as I remember it, all the major manufactures accessed the design yet only Mazda was able to produce a successful engine. Mazda was founded in Hiroshima around 1920 and mainly produced motorized bicycles and these kart/truck-like things. Manufacturing made the necessary switch to military production during the war. I am moved by the spirit of the Japanese people. To move forward, to build, to make and be great. It was this spirit of Hiroshima which was able to elevate and breath life into the rotary engine. The Spirit R is the culmination of this and if you've ever read notes from the designers or developers, you'll immediately realize that rotary is a huge part of the culture. Maybe I'm inferring but I have the upmost respect beyond just being a mere machine.
Thank you.
It was the late 90's and I had been saving for my first vehicle. After much contemplation and Autotrader magazines, my first car was a 1990 RX-7 GTU. This is where my love story starts and has only continued to expand over these past 20 years. As much as I care for the rotary experiments, my appreciation comes from a different place.
Felix Wankel is the creator of the rotary engine and as I remember it, all the major manufactures accessed the design yet only Mazda was able to produce a successful engine. Mazda was founded in Hiroshima around 1920 and mainly produced motorized bicycles and these kart/truck-like things. Manufacturing made the necessary switch to military production during the war. I am moved by the spirit of the Japanese people. To move forward, to build, to make and be great. It was this spirit of Hiroshima which was able to elevate and breath life into the rotary engine. The Spirit R is the culmination of this and if you've ever read notes from the designers or developers, you'll immediately realize that rotary is a huge part of the culture. Maybe I'm inferring but I have the upmost respect beyond just being a mere machine.
Thank you.
10-23-2019, 05:35 PM
#2
Super Moderator
I hope Mazda is listening, but I doubt it...and THE Simple Commercial FACT still remains today...'is it viable'??
In my opinion, No it is no longer viable.
Apart from we few enthusiasts the MARKET Size is just not there.
The Rotary Reputation is just not there..
As I have said before, the RE is Mazda, but in so many ways the RE has held Mazda back from exploring OTHER as powerful Engines..
Oh like a 6 Cylinder (now in the works) BUT ONLY a 3000 cc, here we go again, this engine SIZE is too SMALL!!
AGAIN Korea copies everything Mazda does, except they invest in Larger capacity engines, they have looked at the US market and supplied what that huge market wants and has succeeded.
Relying on just the Rotary Engine and Only economical engines has been a huge mistake, Mazda has putted along with beautiful Designs and gutless engines.
For over 40 years I have watched virtually ALL other car brands other than Mazda go past Mazda in value and market share....is sad.
In my opinion, No it is no longer viable.
Apart from we few enthusiasts the MARKET Size is just not there.
The Rotary Reputation is just not there..
As I have said before, the RE is Mazda, but in so many ways the RE has held Mazda back from exploring OTHER as powerful Engines..
Oh like a 6 Cylinder (now in the works) BUT ONLY a 3000 cc, here we go again, this engine SIZE is too SMALL!!
AGAIN Korea copies everything Mazda does, except they invest in Larger capacity engines, they have looked at the US market and supplied what that huge market wants and has succeeded.
Relying on just the Rotary Engine and Only economical engines has been a huge mistake, Mazda has putted along with beautiful Designs and gutless engines.
For over 40 years I have watched virtually ALL other car brands other than Mazda go past Mazda in value and market share....is sad.
10-23-2019, 06:27 PM
#3
Smoking turbo yay
A big displacement engine will only be attractive in North America, and personally, I go American with big V8s - that's what Americans are good at.
And if a 3.0 engine is turbocharged, that will definitely be enough power(see BMW). I don't recall any Korean vehicles that have "big" engines. Stinger has a 3.2T engine and that's about as big as they go.
Rotary engines don't have the economy of the scales. Look at how enthusiasts are reacting towards the RE range extender. If the range extender actually succeeds then I can see a business case for an RE halo car returning, but if it doesn't, tough luck.
And honestly, piston engines are so good nowadays, rotaries don't really have much of an advantage anymore other than packaging. As much as I like my 8, gas mileage was a legitimate headache. It's so nice to have a car now that sips gas in comparison and it actually makes the same amount of power as a 4-port RX-8.
And if a 3.0 engine is turbocharged, that will definitely be enough power(see BMW). I don't recall any Korean vehicles that have "big" engines. Stinger has a 3.2T engine and that's about as big as they go.
Rotary engines don't have the economy of the scales. Look at how enthusiasts are reacting towards the RE range extender. If the range extender actually succeeds then I can see a business case for an RE halo car returning, but if it doesn't, tough luck.
And honestly, piston engines are so good nowadays, rotaries don't really have much of an advantage anymore other than packaging. As much as I like my 8, gas mileage was a legitimate headache. It's so nice to have a car now that sips gas in comparison and it actually makes the same amount of power as a 4-port RX-8.
10-24-2019, 03:44 AM
#4
Super Moderator
...........................
11-02-2019, 08:17 AM
#6
You could always do this: https://www.factoryfive.com/gtm-supercar/
plus this: https://www.definedautoworks.com/maz...s-4-rotor.html
Though would certainly need a big budget and fabrication skills (or bigger budget to pay for the work). Looks like there have been at least a couple builds with 2 rotors so items like transmission adapter plates are available. Given that the car was designed to take an LS series engine, I'm assuming a 26B would fit.
11-06-2019, 12:43 PM
#7
You could always do this: https://www.factoryfive.com/gtm-supercar/
plus this: https://www.definedautoworks.com/maz...s-4-rotor.html
Though would certainly need a big budget and fabrication skills (or bigger budget to pay for the work). Looks like there have been at least a couple builds with 2 rotors so items like transmission adapter plates are available. Given that the car was designed to take an LS series engine, I'm assuming a 26B would fit.
plus this: https://www.definedautoworks.com/maz...s-4-rotor.html
Though would certainly need a big budget and fabrication skills (or bigger budget to pay for the work). Looks like there have been at least a couple builds with 2 rotors so items like transmission adapter plates are available. Given that the car was designed to take an LS series engine, I'm assuming a 26B would fit.
Unfortunately with very limited contacts / resources, this wouldn't ever be a project work I'd be able to take on. I'd be more inclined to just buy a Mono ? One of a Kind. and call it a day.
I'm still dreaming of a 100% Mazda designed, engineered and manufactured street legal rear mid-engine rotary vehicle.
11-06-2019, 10:34 PM
#8
Smoking turbo yay
Besides, even if it becomes a thing, it's hard to convince anyone that's not a rotary enthusiast to not buy a C8 Corvette over it.
I say just make a rotary Miata and call it a day. Tiny car is great, but an NA 4-banger can only do so much. Putting a light-weight rotary capable of making perhaps double of the power? Chassis is already there and wouldn't cost much to modify to cater to a rotary more. Now we are really talking. Light car also equates to better fuel economy naturally so it helps that as well.
Edit: unless... Toyota works with Mazda on a rotary MR2.
Okay now I am just babbling.
Last edited by UnknownJinX; 11-06-2019 at 10:38 PM.
11-07-2019, 07:37 AM
#10
Smoking turbo yay
Last I heard, they want to make an EV MR2 with Porsche or something.
Anyway, my main point is that building a completely new platform from ground up is not only costly, but also incredibly risky. Mazda hasn't done anything like an MR platform before. There are people even doubting GM's ability to pull it off on the C8 Corvette, and that's a behemoth of a company compared to Mazda.
Safer to stick with existing platforms, like the Miata , or work with someone else with some experience.
Hybridization of a lightweight sports car is questionable. Batteries weigh a lot and that defeats the purpose of these small sport car. They don't even have to use that big of an engine, either.
Anyway, my main point is that building a completely new platform from ground up is not only costly, but also incredibly risky. Mazda hasn't done anything like an MR platform before. There are people even doubting GM's ability to pull it off on the C8 Corvette, and that's a behemoth of a company compared to Mazda.
Safer to stick with existing platforms, like the Miata , or work with someone else with some experience.
Hybridization of a lightweight sports car is questionable. Batteries weigh a lot and that defeats the purpose of these small sport car. They don't even have to use that big of an engine, either.
11-07-2019, 10:45 PM
#11
Some very cool ideas, thanks for contributing guys!
I believe if Mazda had an excellent marketing strategy to launch said developed vehicle, the entire world would notice. It doesn't get more any more "exotic" than a rotary and 9/10 people have no idea there is an alternative to the reciprocating engine. Granted this would be uncharted territory in many ways and will take an immense effort. Cars aren't exactly what they used to be and a vehicle of that caliber is a far cry from the FD. I'd expect pricing to be relative to the GTR or NSX.
Further refinement of the rotary would probably be the first order of business. It would most certainly need to be achieved to make this a viable success. But just imagine if the rotary had billions of resources poured into it like our current pistons have, where could we have been today.
I know if they offered an epic car like I'm describing with numbers and specs to match, we'd have a real winner. Mazda got the Leman boot for a reason.
I believe if Mazda had an excellent marketing strategy to launch said developed vehicle, the entire world would notice. It doesn't get more any more "exotic" than a rotary and 9/10 people have no idea there is an alternative to the reciprocating engine. Granted this would be uncharted territory in many ways and will take an immense effort. Cars aren't exactly what they used to be and a vehicle of that caliber is a far cry from the FD. I'd expect pricing to be relative to the GTR or NSX.
Further refinement of the rotary would probably be the first order of business. It would most certainly need to be achieved to make this a viable success. But just imagine if the rotary had billions of resources poured into it like our current pistons have, where could we have been today.
I know if they offered an epic car like I'm describing with numbers and specs to match, we'd have a real winner. Mazda got the Leman boot for a reason.
11-08-2019, 10:39 PM
#12
Smoking turbo yay
Marketing is Mazda's weakness though IMO. I mean FFS Kia has a more memorable ad for the Forte when they hilariously compared it to a Lamborghini Aventador.
As for GT-R and NSX, if I have that kinda money, I'd buy a Lambo or a Porsche because why buy a Nissan, a Honda(or Acura) or a Mazda? That's not mentioning one is an ancient platform at this point and the other is way overdoing it with the techs(it's cool, I did a whole project on it, but using the NSX nameplate is just weird). At least Honda and Nissan are bigger than Mazda and can just do this to show off. Mazda can't afford it. Badge is the name of the game when you step into that price range.
Instead, take an alternate route: stuff it in a Miata. Let's do a little math here:
A Mustang GT has 460 horses and weighs 1.7 metric ton
A Miata weighs 1.1 metric ton.
For the Miata to get the same power to weight ratio as a Mustang GT, it needs around 300 horses. That's not impossible for an NA rotary if they make the displacement higher. Even a 2.0L rotary is probably smaller than a 2.0L DOHC I4 engine, with the added advantage of lower centre of gravity. So you have a car with the same power to weight ratio as a Mustang GT and weighs nothing compared to it. It's a road-legal go kart on steroids. Lightweight sports cars with some guts like that aren't exactly common so it could fill a gap there. Miata is already a poor man's 718(and that's not a bad thing at all), so if it could jump up in the power department, it could be an interesting comparison.
Another thing I cannot stress enough, a rotary has to have economy of the scale. If they make it, they have to make sure they can stuff it in their family cars as well, or it's gonna be too expensive as there are fewer units to spread out the cost.
Rotaries have some limitations by design, like uneven heat spread across the top and the bottom, lower thermal efficiency due to higher surface area. It would take a lot of engineering to do some of the things common on piston engines, like variable valve timing(variable port timing on a rotary) and (mostly) lossless lubrication. Not saying it's impossible, but it's a lot to ask from Mazda.
As for GT-R and NSX, if I have that kinda money, I'd buy a Lambo or a Porsche because why buy a Nissan, a Honda(or Acura) or a Mazda? That's not mentioning one is an ancient platform at this point and the other is way overdoing it with the techs(it's cool, I did a whole project on it, but using the NSX nameplate is just weird). At least Honda and Nissan are bigger than Mazda and can just do this to show off. Mazda can't afford it. Badge is the name of the game when you step into that price range.
Instead, take an alternate route: stuff it in a Miata. Let's do a little math here:
A Mustang GT has 460 horses and weighs 1.7 metric ton
A Miata weighs 1.1 metric ton.
For the Miata to get the same power to weight ratio as a Mustang GT, it needs around 300 horses. That's not impossible for an NA rotary if they make the displacement higher. Even a 2.0L rotary is probably smaller than a 2.0L DOHC I4 engine, with the added advantage of lower centre of gravity. So you have a car with the same power to weight ratio as a Mustang GT and weighs nothing compared to it. It's a road-legal go kart on steroids. Lightweight sports cars with some guts like that aren't exactly common so it could fill a gap there. Miata is already a poor man's 718(and that's not a bad thing at all), so if it could jump up in the power department, it could be an interesting comparison.
Another thing I cannot stress enough, a rotary has to have economy of the scale. If they make it, they have to make sure they can stuff it in their family cars as well, or it's gonna be too expensive as there are fewer units to spread out the cost.
Rotaries have some limitations by design, like uneven heat spread across the top and the bottom, lower thermal efficiency due to higher surface area. It would take a lot of engineering to do some of the things common on piston engines, like variable valve timing(variable port timing on a rotary) and (mostly) lossless lubrication. Not saying it's impossible, but it's a lot to ask from Mazda.
Last edited by UnknownJinX; 11-08-2019 at 10:45 PM.
11-09-2019, 08:21 AM
#13
Marketing is Mazda's weakness though IMO. I mean FFS Kia has a more memorable ad for the Forte when they hilariously compared it to a Lamborghini Aventador.
As for GT-R and NSX, if I have that kinda money, I'd buy a Lambo or a Porsche because why buy a Nissan, a Honda(or Acura) or a Mazda? That's not mentioning one is an ancient platform at this point and the other is way overdoing it with the techs(it's cool, I did a whole project on it, but using the NSX nameplate is just weird). At least Honda and Nissan are bigger than Mazda and can just do this to show off. Mazda can't afford it. Badge is the name of the game when you step into that price range.
Instead, take an alternate route: stuff it in a Miata. Let's do a little math here:
A Mustang GT has 460 horses and weighs 1.7 metric ton
A Miata weighs 1.1 metric ton.
For the Miata to get the same power to weight ratio as a Mustang GT, it needs around 300 horses. That's not impossible for an NA rotary if they make the displacement higher. Even a 2.0L rotary is probably smaller than a 2.0L DOHC I4 engine, with the added advantage of lower centre of gravity. So you have a car with the same power to weight ratio as a Mustang GT and weighs nothing compared to it. It's a road-legal go kart on steroids. Lightweight sports cars with some guts like that aren't exactly common so it could fill a gap there. Miata is already a poor man's 718(and that's not a bad thing at all), so if it could jump up in the power department, it could be an interesting comparison.
Another thing I cannot stress enough, a rotary has to have economy of the scale. If they make it, they have to make sure they can stuff it in their family cars as well, or it's gonna be too expensive as there are fewer units to spread out the cost.
Rotaries have some limitations by design, like uneven heat spread across the top and the bottom, lower thermal efficiency due to higher surface area. It would take a lot of engineering to do some of the things common on piston engines, like variable valve timing(variable port timing on a rotary) and (mostly) lossless lubrication. Not saying it's impossible, but it's a lot to ask from Mazda.
As for GT-R and NSX, if I have that kinda money, I'd buy a Lambo or a Porsche because why buy a Nissan, a Honda(or Acura) or a Mazda? That's not mentioning one is an ancient platform at this point and the other is way overdoing it with the techs(it's cool, I did a whole project on it, but using the NSX nameplate is just weird). At least Honda and Nissan are bigger than Mazda and can just do this to show off. Mazda can't afford it. Badge is the name of the game when you step into that price range.
Instead, take an alternate route: stuff it in a Miata. Let's do a little math here:
A Mustang GT has 460 horses and weighs 1.7 metric ton
A Miata weighs 1.1 metric ton.
For the Miata to get the same power to weight ratio as a Mustang GT, it needs around 300 horses. That's not impossible for an NA rotary if they make the displacement higher. Even a 2.0L rotary is probably smaller than a 2.0L DOHC I4 engine, with the added advantage of lower centre of gravity. So you have a car with the same power to weight ratio as a Mustang GT and weighs nothing compared to it. It's a road-legal go kart on steroids. Lightweight sports cars with some guts like that aren't exactly common so it could fill a gap there. Miata is already a poor man's 718(and that's not a bad thing at all), so if it could jump up in the power department, it could be an interesting comparison.
Another thing I cannot stress enough, a rotary has to have economy of the scale. If they make it, they have to make sure they can stuff it in their family cars as well, or it's gonna be too expensive as there are fewer units to spread out the cost.
Rotaries have some limitations by design, like uneven heat spread across the top and the bottom, lower thermal efficiency due to higher surface area. It would take a lot of engineering to do some of the things common on piston engines, like variable valve timing(variable port timing on a rotary) and (mostly) lossless lubrication. Not saying it's impossible, but it's a lot to ask from Mazda.
11-14-2019, 07:37 PM
#14
Hilarious UnknownJinX! Couldn't agree more with you about marketing and yes, selling a $100k Mazda would be a hard sell to say the least.
I'm a romantic at heart and seriously believe people would not only accept something of this quality if it proved to be sustainable but would cherish and love Mr. Wankel's dream. With how wild cars have become today always being 'bigger, badder, faster," we wait for the next big thing to come along and in my mind, a hypothetical project of this nature could potentially provide a huge paradigm shift and inspire some great new ideas.
I always felt that there was a lot of development left on the table due to many variables but maybe I'm reaching? Something like experimenting with alternative fuel(s) variable fuel / intake temps, lubrication / injection methods and really did some homework on solving said cooling obstacles we'd have a winner. An incredible effort would be needed but I imagine a rotary renaissance like that of the 70's.
I'm a romantic at heart and seriously believe people would not only accept something of this quality if it proved to be sustainable but would cherish and love Mr. Wankel's dream. With how wild cars have become today always being 'bigger, badder, faster," we wait for the next big thing to come along and in my mind, a hypothetical project of this nature could potentially provide a huge paradigm shift and inspire some great new ideas.
I always felt that there was a lot of development left on the table due to many variables but maybe I'm reaching? Something like experimenting with alternative fuel(s) variable fuel / intake temps, lubrication / injection methods and really did some homework on solving said cooling obstacles we'd have a winner. An incredible effort would be needed but I imagine a rotary renaissance like that of the 70's.
Last edited by Federighi; 11-14-2019 at 09:33 PM. Reason: forgot some stuff
11-14-2019, 10:52 PM
#16
Smoking turbo yay
I don't disagree with your Miata comments. However, it would be much easier (and cheaper) for Mazda to drop in the 2.5T from the 6/CX-5/CX-9, turbo the existing 2.0 or perhaps drop in an N/A 2.5 (to minimize weight added) than to design a new rotary. That said, I think a rotary in the ND would be great fun, even if power was similar to the renny. My brother's ND1 club is a lot of fun and it only has 155 hp.
Rotary is good for squeezing out good power in a small size even in NA form, which would be great for Miata.
Hilarious UnknownJinX! Couldn't agree more with you about marketing and yes, selling a $100k Mazda would be a hard sell to say the least.
I'm a romantic at heart and seriously believe people would not only accept something of this quality if it proved to be sustainable but would cherish and love Mr. Wankel's dream. With how wild cars have become today always being 'bigger, badder, faster," we wait for the next big thing to come along and in my mind, a hypothetical project of this nature could potentially provide a huge paradigm shift and inspire some great new ideas.
I always felt that there was a lot of development left on the table due to many variables but maybe I'm reaching? Something like experimenting with alternative fuel(s) variable fuel / intake temps, lubrication / injection methods and really did some homework on solving said cooling obstacles we'd have a winner. An incredible effort would be needed but I imagine a rotary renaissance like that of the 70's.
I'm a romantic at heart and seriously believe people would not only accept something of this quality if it proved to be sustainable but would cherish and love Mr. Wankel's dream. With how wild cars have become today always being 'bigger, badder, faster," we wait for the next big thing to come along and in my mind, a hypothetical project of this nature could potentially provide a huge paradigm shift and inspire some great new ideas.
I always felt that there was a lot of development left on the table due to many variables but maybe I'm reaching? Something like experimenting with alternative fuel(s) variable fuel / intake temps, lubrication / injection methods and really did some homework on solving said cooling obstacles we'd have a winner. An incredible effort would be needed but I imagine a rotary renaissance like that of the 70's.
From an efficiency and engineering point of view, hydrogen ICE(piston or Wankel) doesn't make much sense against a hydrogen fuel cell + electric motors. The latter is more efficient and doesn't emit NOx.
And that brings me to the main thing, rotary really needs better efficiency, which also means better emissions. Hopefully, Skyactiv-X might actually work out in a rotary.
11-17-2019, 12:32 PM
#17
I'm familiar with the Furai and I suppose a production model would be closest to launching said new flagship vehicle. It's too bad these are only ever "phototype" or "concept" vehicles driven by a very select group of people and then are tucked away into a storage facility or collectors garage.
Everything I've seen or read about the production, transportation, storage and use of hydrogen isn't exactly an improvement of the use of petrol. I do remember reading that dealer published "Mazda monthly magazine" from early 2000s with a hydrogen rotary article in it. Back then I always wondered why the industry wasn't moving in sustainable directions.
As a Californian I can tell you with confidence that people have lost the concept of "value" vs "worth."
Everything I've seen or read about the production, transportation, storage and use of hydrogen isn't exactly an improvement of the use of petrol. I do remember reading that dealer published "Mazda monthly magazine" from early 2000s with a hydrogen rotary article in it. Back then I always wondered why the industry wasn't moving in sustainable directions.
As a Californian I can tell you with confidence that people have lost the concept of "value" vs "worth."
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