Howard

I bought a Dodge Charger 1n 1971. By the way it was go-man-go Orange. That was a muscle car. I do nort think of European or Japanese cars as muscle car regardless of performance. I like the name Tuner that refers to many of these cars. Even in the day of the muscle cars the smaller hi-output cars were not called muscle cars but Pony cars.

StewC625

Changed a number of years ago - the Mustangs for the past 6 or 7 years have used Ford's "Modular" SOHC or DOHC 4.6L V8, variations of which power everything from the Mustang to the town car to the Lincoln Navigator and the Ford F150 pickup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Modular_engine

By the way, I hate when a Mfr (typically an american mfr) calls an SOHC design (single camshaft overhead of the cylinder bank) a DOHC when that design is implemented on a Vee-type engine like a V-6 or V-8. Just because it has two camshafts doesn't mean it's a DOHC.

dmp

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...y-revival.html

Ike

No one in the Evo community really talked about the FQ400 only being a 2.0L and how much horsepower it puts down per liter. Making 400hp in an Evo is nothing out of the ordinary.

What he said is ricer math because there are thousands of V8s out there that are faster than any Asian car ever brought into the US. Stock for stock american muscle wins, mod for mod it usually does as well.

dmp

Why are we excluding other-than-asian cars in our discussion of 'imports'.

Veyron, anybody?

Enzo?

911T?

saturn

Didn't anyone see 2F2F? When Brian and Romes went to race for pinks with those dudes in the muscle cars, they had to play chicken with that guy in order to win. I'd say that's pretty conclusive evidence that American muscle pwns all unless you have a cheating turbo, NAWS!, and play dirty.

puch96

Be carefull with the "asian muscle" statement. I would considered "asian racing machines" not "muscles"..

BTW.... Even amerian vehicles don't even compare the the old traditional "american muscle cars".... No comparison.

alfy29

i think because muscle car term excludes sport cars. to be honest i dotn undestand this thread at all. . im not sure if this thread is about muscle, performance or sport cars. oh well im lost

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_car
Definition


The term muscle car generally describes a mid-size car with a large, powerful engine (typically, although not universally, a V8 engine) and special trim, intended for maximum acceleration on the street or in drag racing competition. It is distinguished from sports cars, which were customarily and coincidentally considered smaller, two-seat cars, or GTs, two-seat or 2+2 cars intended for high-speed touring and possibly road racing. High-performance full-size or compact cars are arguably excluded from this category, as are the breed of compact sports coupes inspired by the Ford Mustang and typically known as pony cars, although few would dispute a big-block pony car's credentials as a muscle car.

An alternate definition is based on power-to-weight ratio, defining a muscle car as an automobile with (for example) fewer than 12 pounds per rated hp. Such definitions are inexact, thanks to a wide variation in curb weight depending on options and to the questionable nature of the SAE gross hp ratings in use before 1972, which were often deliberately overstated or underrated for various reasons..

SayNoToPistons

iTrader: (8)

who siad the v8 had to be stock for a large single 13bre/w and a 20B to beat it?

Smileynh

There is something to be said for those "crude" engines. The original Ford GT was a "crude" design that allowed it to win piles of races.

When it comes to mods vs. stock the American car wins on price. The mustang with a supercharger is still like $6000 cheaper then the STI or EVO stock. You can compare stock to modded if you take price into account. Although the mustang may still lose on the track due to the 4wd.

It is possible to get a base rx8 to the point of blowing the doors off(10s 1/4) the Evo or competing with the comparably modded Mustang even. The example is the PR 3 rotor 8 that had about $8500 in mods w/o the labor. Even with the new 8's base price of $26k you'd still be even with the Evo's $34k price point.

Personally I like my 8 just the way it is. I also think the mustang is a cool car but a dime a dozen. I just can't contemplate owning the Evo. Never looked at it and went, wow I want that car. Even in the video racing the lambo.

--

Ike

Hurray for more ricer math!

Also, a 20b swap is going to cost any normal person at least 20k. Especially if you think you're going to run 10s with it and not brake numerous things every time you go wot.

puch96

Excuse my ignorance... but what is ricer math????

limepro

didnt u know u arent living unless its 1/4 mile at a time?

puch96

alfy29

i tihnk ike means, when ppl start saying things like ill put a 3 rotor etc and not really thinking of the outcome after you install, or cost wisel. Its easy to say put o 20b in rx8 but you are not really tihnking realibily. But i maybe wrong any how :P Ike can better explain then i can. But to me ricer math is like poser thinking. I can tell you i can do this to engine etc but in reality its not possiable or just not realiable. but in words it sounds really good.

sorry if english is poor. its my second language and sometimes i have trouble trying to explain what i want to say lol;

Doomcue

Read the entire thread. Ike is doing an excellent job of pointing it out....

In general, ricer math equates to, "My car would be faster IF __________."

Examples:

My car would be faster if I swapped out a bigger motor.
My car would be faster if I installed twin turbos.
My car would be faster if I put a big wing on it.
My car would be faster if I take out the can of fix-a-flat.
My car would be faster if I poked holes in the other guy's tires.

Another common ricer math technique involves changing one half of the equation, but not the other. For instance, ricers love to say they could buy a cheap beater Honda, spend $20k on mods, and outrun a stock C6 'Vette. Their line of "thinking" is that doing so is somehow better than just buying a Corvette because it's cheaper. I say, so what? It's still a Honda, plus you had to spend $20k to make it run worth a ****. Why waste the time and effort to do so when there's already a perfectly good machine already built to do what the Honda wasn't built to do? Would the Honda still outrun the 'Vette if it had $20k in mods, too? In the end, which car is worth more, the stock Corvette or the riced-out Honda? Which one will you have to worry about breaking, the Corvette or the Honda?

Another common ricer math technique is to call American muscle "crude" due to lower hp/liter numbers than Japanese cars, even though American muscle cars still make more overall horsepower. That particular statistic is useful when comparing relative efficiencies of an engine when discussing power output, but has absolutely nothing to do with actual power output. In the end, the only thing that matters, given equal weights, is the power output. If hp/liter were really all that important, then we'd all be running StewC625's "weed wacker" engines in our cars.

As Ike said, usually, whether stock-to-stock or mod-to-mod, American muscle beats Japanese "muscle." Ricer math defeats that equation only when the scales are tilted by the ricer to put modded Japanese "muscle" vs. stock American muscle.

-djb <-- hates muscle cars, but gives credit where credit is due

Doomcue

This is true, a 350Z will kill a V6 rustang, but we all know they're not exactly even....

-djb <-- my Z has a tough time with V8 rustangs, even with my mighty JWT intake

puch96

Wow... Thanks for the explanation....

I like both type of cars.... they are just different and intended for different purposes. muscle cars vs. japanese little 2.0L engines tuned for racing, etc....

The only problem I see is that the US is still thinking of "bigger is better" and "big muscle cars" "big american, tough cars"........
The fact of the matter is that gas prices are not going to drop...... As a matter of fact, they will continue to rise. I am already starting to see the american consumers shift in their buying habits. I live in Michigan, the State of the "Big 3" and they are suffering...... while the japanese are going up and up and up.

supergoat

That was a movie with very exaggerated racing. Not really a good basis for making a point.

saturn

^ Good thing it was a joke then...

Ike

Well explained Doomcue

Oh, and I happen to know for a fact that Saturn wasn't joking.

r0tor

iTrader: (1)

"asian muscle"... LOL

dillsrotary

"I run these streets, romey rome!"
"you need an engine as big as your mouth kid."

Smileynh

Bah I was talking about a mustang with a supercharger, which is the easiest upgrade. Far easier then putting a 3 rotor in the 8. Ike's just mad because I talked about the Evo costing more then the 8 or the mustang(even a modded mustang). Well it does, alot more.

If you want to put a 3 rotor in the 8 good for you. But you might want to save the trouble and just buy a Mustang, Evo or Sti. Or even a Vette which beats them all, although it is 2 seats.

p-trix

ok ok...american v8s are strong but if toyota made a v8 (i dont know if they have one) for a sports car im pretty sure it would be better than an american v8 and it would last much longer also. My first car was a civic (that i still own) it was turbo and had an engine swap.. I dont know any tuner that has spent 20k to get fast than a mustang.. I spent around 5k to 6k..plus its a mis match.. again my supra would eat up a mustang.. my s2k will **** on most american cars and thats with 4 cyl and no turbo..