p-trix

I am a proud owner of some asian muscle including my rx8.. my neighbor down the street has a classic american muscle whick includes a 05 cobra.. after some carne asada and a couple of beers we had a discussion about import vs domestics.. I am a fan of asian muscle because of reliability and power..what american car has 100+ ponies per liter like a s2k or an rx8.. And why do they compare a v8 to a honda civic..put it up against a subaru.. Im might be biased towards imports but if anyone can gimmie a reason why american cars are better let me know..

saturn

Torque?

Ike

This horsepower per liter nonsense is for ricers. Also, lets get real, RX-8, Asian muscle?

Tell us some more about you neighbor's "classic american muscle"...

Ike

One last thing, there is no such thing as an '05 Cobra.

SayNoToPistons

iTrader: (8)

youll have no problem beating V8's with a nice single turbo 13b-re/w and 13b... MmMmm... or a 20B bridgeported.. so... sexyy...

Ike

Ahhh more ricer math! So he gets an imginary engine swap but the V8 stays stock?

theCATALYST

I don't subscribe to the American vs. Import bullshiznit! I think each automaker has had their gems, and each have had their shortcomings. What I base a car on, is how "I" feel when I drive it. How "I" feel when I see it. And the reactions "I" get from other people. And I have had great experiences with cars from both sides of the big pond.

Which car is quicker? Depends on the race, but more so then that, depends on the driver.
Which car looks better? Depends on who you ask.
Which is more reliable? AGAIN depends on who you ask.

Japan8

^ Ditto. That is exactly how I feel. There is so much domestic bashing here that I always seem to end up having to defend them when the truth of the matter is that I don't really have any allegiances. If I like a car, I like a car... its looks, feel, performance (straight line as well as handling) and whatnot.

I thought that this is what true auto enthusiasts are supposed to be about...

rodrigo67

I think some of the differences are a reflection of the societies they come from.

America is not limited by population, living space, gas prices, or area available to develope and our cars reflect that. Could you imagine a dodge charger or a big caddy on the streets of tokoyo or the tiny italian cobblestone roads. They may have them but considering that japanese take space into consideration on thier cars and the europeans take gas consumption, it is no surprise that both produce relatively smaller cars with smaller engines that create power more, efficiently then thier american counter parts.

An American v8 may produce in the 300 hp range with the same size european v8 produce's much more power. Of course it costs much more also. The europeans have produced as small an engine as they could while still gving you the exhileration of top performance, reflecting thier desire for speed while conserving fuel prices. The japanese have taken a different road as they produce smaller engines ( and smaller cars) that produce almost the same as an american v8, relying on quality, weight, and handling to make up the difference, while giving up the topline sports cars.

The downside on both of these is what's left to squeeze out of them for the buyer. It takes relatively few bucks to get big increase's in hp on american cars while it takes very large dollars to get gains on the others. Some cars are so efficient at producing power from small engines (ahem), that there is very little left to squeeze no matter how much is spent.

I think overall, the jap/euro cars are a better engineered from stock (because they have to be), but the American cars have much more potential due to the fact that American companies really don't push the envelope like the others do. Of course, they really don't have too.

DreRX8

The only Asian muscle I conisder stock are FDs, Supras, Skylines, and I guess those ungainly EVO and WRXs. Its all relative to taste and the debate will be endless--anybody can put on a bigger turbo/bigger engine and be faster than the next man. I like what I like--if Ford puts out some $^*% that I like then I'll check em out.

maxxdamigz

iTrader: (1)

"Classic" American power comes through increased displacemet.
Japanese Import muscle comes from intricate timing, fuel control, and forced induction.
European muscle is a combination. Some manufacturers like turbocharging, some like V10s.

American is a country of highways and American Muscle goes straight really well. It's generally cheaper to build a 10s V8 than a 10s I-6.

Japanese roads are crowded and curved. Throw a curve in that 1/4 mi and see what happens.

HP/liter is only a good comparison if you have a liter limit. I've personally prefered the good handling of imports over the higher torque of domestics, but I can see the appeal of each.

Paul_in_DC

Auto makers design cars that will help you beat your friend in a race over to the next town. That's how they keep the bulk of their customer base happy.

In Europe and Japan, most roads are built on the same twisty little paths that ox carts were using hundreds of years ago. As a result, their auto makers design nimble little cars that go fast around corners. In the US, with its wide open spaces, the majority of roads are relatively straight. As a result, US auto makers design heavier cars that go fast in a straight line.

It also affects our taste in racing. European/Japanese auto makers design cars for those who like the twists and turns of road/rally/F1 racing. US auto makers design cars for those who like the straight line speed of drag racing or NASCAR.

Personally, I find drag racing and NASCAR to be a frightful bore. Give me road or F1 racing any time. That's why I always buy cars that handle over ones with straight-line speed.

StewC625

My humble opinion/experience:

Having had both a few times (American Muscle and Asian/Euro performance), it seems like it's a matter of approach to performance. American cars tend to:

- Have big crude engines with tons of torque, relatively low revs, etc. Lots of power, but in a crude way - push rods, relatively low tech induction, etc. Not necessarily a bad thing, just an approach.

- Have large, heavy tires and stiff suspensions as a way to get to good handling, but oddly combined with things like live rear axles (current mustang, previous camaro) that date to the 1940's. Generally do NOT have good, stiff structures on which to mount everything.

Meanwhile, the imports:

- Have smaller, high-revving, high technology engines, with less torque, but very high horsepower readings (the venerable "horsepower per liter" measurement which says lots, but says nothing. Hell, my weed wacker has a high horsepower per liter measurement (2.5 horsepower out of 35 cc's - 2.5/.035 = 71 horsepower per liter!))

- Accomplish good handling through stiff structures, high-tech designs, and light weight components. Rather than focus on roll stiffness and pure weight pushing the tires down, they focus on suspension travel, keeping the contact patches located and as big as possible, etc.

The result is feel - I think a Mustang GT is a supremely fun car to drive, but it's also a big, blunt instrument - a big honking fairly low-tech V8 (although yes, this one is NOT pushrod), a not-very stiff structure, but big, heavy, stiff suspension bits, etc.

Contrast that to a similarly fast import car like an M3, and you've got a refined feel, a compliant suspension, and a tremendously high-tech, high-revving engine.

Of course, there's that 3x the price thing there to contend with ...

I don't think there's any right or wrong - the US mfrs are definitely ruled more by their accountants than the import guys, and that forces them to work with what they've got, rather than engineering better/cooler/newer.

Whichever side you're on, the result is the same - entertainment for all of us.

Stew

Rootski

iTrader: (1)

When did this become a "your car vs. my car" thread? He didn't ask if he could take on his friend's american V8 in his RX-8. We have plenty of those threads already for you to whine in. p-trix just asked about the merits of Japanese cars compared to those of American cars. So before you start in about "ricer math," consider this: Mitsubishi built a version of your holy EVO with 400 horsepower, which means an unprecedented 200 horsepower-per-liter. Now ignoring whether or not it put it down that well, I bet no one over on the EVO forum, including you, was bitching about "ricer math" when that one came around. Sure, if it's some kid in a Civic claiming that his engine is better because it has a better hp/l ratio than the V8 that outpowers him by 200hp, that's ricer math. This isn't.

By the way, there are plenty of RX-7's to be had that have the aforementioned turbocharged 13b's that have never had an engine swap. Actually I'd put one stock-for-stock against a Mustang any day. I think the talk of the 20b was just daydreaming more than anything else.

Rootski

iTrader: (1)

Actually, unless they changed it, I'm pretty sure it is pushrod. I saw a cutaway of it at the auto show, and one thing I took note of was that it had just one camshaft, and of course pushrods.

Whitey

Asian-muscle???? I thought that was an oxymoron......both when referring to cars AND the people! Ah I'm just messin'..... I LOVE MY CAR!!!!

p-trix

Correction-the cobra probably wasnt an 05 but it was the last bodystyle before this one...

guy321

Tell that to him..

alfy29

NIppon no Muscle Kuruma desuyo

hehe i thought you was talking about japan old school muscle :P and MOPAR ;P

p-trix

Ok I have no problem with American cars.. It does seem like anyone with a big american v8 doesnt respect Asian sports cars.. besides horsepower I think asian imported cars have better reliability.. and as far as horepower lets be even.. my 4cyl s2k will outrun any american roadster (is there one..Solstice)... The rx8 with a 1.3 keeps up or even beats alot of american cars with 6 cyl. .. Im just trying to say that asian muscle is just as good and maybe even better.. and alot of the newer american cars are trying to pull in the sport compact crowd..a saturn with a wing um a cobalt with a wing and wannabe german focus.. the new vette (which I like) looks somewhat imported..a 350z and a mustang v6 (just to be even) the z kills the stang and will still work after.. My point is american cars are great but asian muscle (yes asian muscle) should get more respect than they deserve..

alfy29

and of course US and uk

dmp

Funny how people forget Car and Driver's 04 Cobra smoking both a G35 and an RX8 around a racetrack. Yes, the Rx8 'won' the comparison, but it surely wasn't faster.

HCTR154

The best thing about the Mustang, especially the old pushrod V8, was the availability of many, relatively cheap mods.

A pulley swap and K&N filter would result in a felt increase in power at least for a day or so. Makes your time and money feel more satisfying.

Regardless, I enjoy my RX 8 and am very happy with it.

dillsrotary

the last mustang engine to have pushrods was the 5.0 in 94

spork

Was it faster around the track? I don't remember.

I remember the Cobra DESTROYING the G35 and the RX8 in the acceleration/straight line tests and I remember the RX8 taking the slalom tests. I don't remember who won the actual track race (if they even had one).

And yeah, I wouldn't classify the RX8 as muscle at all. I always thought "muscle" cars referred to cars with big engines designed to go straight very fast?

oh and

(Haha ok, it's from a movie and it's a body suit but whatever.)