nvrfalter

iTrader: (1)

this was my first reaction.

Red Devil

Not entirely, and not to the point that I'll belittle them.

I'm guessing from this you have no real working experience with unions? Strikes just don't happen. I don't disagree with the greed, but I blame the enabler - management - way more because they had/have the real power and they abused it.

Look, I think that the UAW will have to give drastic concessions and that at this point they should have no rational choice otherwise. But leadership comes from the top. There's zero leadership when the CEOs arrive on corporate jets begging for cash. And the ploy about driving in their hybrid cars was pathetic. We already know their number, and any concession on their part about taking $1 a year salary is suspect.

Agreed. I've been through strikes and seen as such.

Agreed again.

Toyota workers on base pay actually make slightly more than the typical UAW. It's the benefits but more so the legacy costs that are the greater issue. The Big really aren't car companies any more, they are more so large retirement funds.

US workers could still make their current base and if management actually was effective the formula could work...haha, that's a big what-if based on their history, I suppose...

Red Devil

Great post.

EdwardsB

I hope for the average worker they do not, but the companies have done it to themselves.

I'm so glad I will be paying for other people irresponsible mistakes (while making them rich at the same time) for the rest of my life.

other than the vette and mustang their cars do not really catch my eye. I do not understand their logic at times either: the ford 500 failed, so they bring the ford taurus back and it looks just like the failed 500.

devildog1679

I don't think it's far that tax payers will bail out a Company that give employees they LAID OFF almost their full paycheck on top of regular unemployment benefits. These job banks make no since to me, the UAW did it to themselves, it's about time they get paid what they are worth which is not what they get paid now.

Unfortunately the govt. will bail them out without a doubt, that's why I dumped a good amount of money in GM and Ford stock in late Nov. they have now given me a 59% return When the bailout happens their stock will go up some more then I'm out

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

what makes these so-called "CEOs" deserves that million-dollar salary ? this is the part that I dont understand.

Not to mention, does our government even have money ? we have over trillions of debts ! Trillions ! oh right, just print more 100 bills ? sheesh.

Let them die and rebirth. jesus.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker...ese-Conditions...

I hate these idiots who always talk smack on TV and stuff think they're smart.

spent 2 trillion to bailout financial? they shouldn't even spent a penny to bail anybody out. Market freedom my ***.

After all these crap. those management will be even MORE careless. cuz if u're big enough. nothing will happen. government will bail you out. yay.

max5roadster

I have had the opportunity to be around unions in 2 different fields and they did nothing good for the company as a whole in either case. In fact, they weakened the company fiscally, and interupted communications between different sections. Some will say that is a result that needs the union, but no, it was the result after the union..

The UAWs chickens have come home to roost.

REsuperD

+1

in this case, it really does seem to me that the uaw abused and bled the big 3 and certainly didn't help matters. i'm not against unions, but they also seem prone to abuse

delhi

I think humans are resilient bunch. We've survived many wars, plague, famine, natural disasters, economic hardships etc.... losing jobs are part and parcel of what enables people to strive for betterment. I say let the Detroit 3 file for Chapter 11 and re-org into a new entity which should be leaner and more competitive. Their products just do not appeal to the public anymore.
Should there be a bailout for the realtors and RE agencies in US because of the housing meltdown?

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

There is no point of Chapter 11. No one will buy cars from a "already bankrupt" company. By going Chapter 11, you're asking for a extremely painful death. Its like putting a Full of cancer patience on life support.


So its either a pathetic bailout, or Chapter 7. No other option

and I think I strongly suggest them to go Chapter 7.

77mjd

No, the country doesn't have a cent, and unfortunately everyone is going to find that out the hard and painful way if things ever start improving. Because of all the fake money that is being thrown into the system, even modest improvement in the economy will bring about double digit inflation for everything because with every bailout, the dollar is becoming more worthless. If you think the price increases for everything this summer were bad because of gas prices, just wait. It will be much worse than that the next time around.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Yep, most of the financial experts world wide EXCLUDING the ones in the US agreed that, the US government should've bankrupt LONG *** TIME AGO. and it might be a good thing if they did.

I dont want to turn this into any political stuff but lets be honest, US government NEVER THOUGHT about paying back anyway. Cuz I think they have a problem paying back even just "interest only". We're talking about hundred million dollars of interest EVERY DAY.

Anyway, I say no to bailout, not only the big 3, that 700 billion b4 was a total joke. AIG, and other stuff. All just nothing but some damn jokes. Market freedom my ***.

RX8-Frontier

Welp...

First of all, I don't think the Big 3 are going to "fail". Heck, there isn't really a "Big 3" anyways...

Chrysler, let's be fair/honest, hasn't really been a "big" anything for years, now, and up until last year wasn't even a North American car company. Daimler Benz bought them years ago, realized their mistake that it couldn't be a profitable subsidiary, and finally sold the pile of scrap to a PRIVATE equity firm last year. The past 10 years at Chrysler has been to R&D unique vehicles for niche markets (see the dodge caliber, PT Cruiser, Charger, Challenger, Magnum, etc.) and then hope the masses will buy into their "uniqueness". Well, they didn't. Ya' gambled, and ya' lost. So I'm sorry, but if Chrysler fails, I couldn't care less; a PRIVATE equity firm owns them; they're a PRIVATE company!! And, interestingly enough, Cerberus (the PRIVATE firm that OWNS Chrysler) REFUSES to inject any capital (money) into them, either, and they hide behind, "our obligations to investors won't allow it"... Hey, wait a second! If their own friggin' OWNERS (the PRIVATE investors in Cerebus) know putting money into Chrysler is a BAD idea, why in hell should taxpayers??? If they fail, tough titty. I'm not too keen to use my UNITED STATES tax dollars to help out a PRIVATE company. And just think...Cerberus paid $7.4 BILLION dollars for 80% ownership in Chrysler (Daimler keeps the other 20%). If the US does give them the $7 BILLION dollars they're asking for, shouldn't the US government then be the 80% majority shareholder of the company...? And better yet, since when does the US Government own its own manufacturing companies...?? Woohoo!!! I can't wait to buy a whole factory at a Gov't surplus auction sometime next year...

GM, well, they're going to go bankrupt. Doesn't matter if they get gov't help at the moment. They're a horribly mismanaged company that, while their products aren't actually the pile of crap they used to be, there are still too many of their own products that compete against themselves. When you have 1 vehicle under 3 different brand names, with 3 different prices, they ALL suffer in profitability (have to market 3 different names, 3 different dealership contracts, 3 different assembly lines, etc.). It's retarded. Just build 1 vehicle, make it have several different options, and then you don't have to design 3 different versions of sheet metal, headlights, etc...

Ford, on the other hand, went through some painful times several years ago, began pouring money into things other than their full size truck line, and are making some really good cars these days. I think they made a mistake by selling their interests in Mazda (their little cash cow), but I understand sometimes you gotta' sell all your stuff verses declaring bankruptcy. The flip side is, after Chrysler becomes extinct, and GM declares bankruptcy, Ford is going to skyrocket. They're going to be just fine.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

DIE Big 3 DIE !

max5roadster

IIRC correctly, Chrysler was making money when they merged with Diamler... They did better than MB as far as profits in the early going... Not that it matters now. Time to consolidate brands, I agree 100%!

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

They agreed to bail them out.

Epic failed.

*sigh* ... watch in the near future. They just gonna come back and ask for more and I want to tell those fuxking people in the congress that you should quit your job and go fuxk urself.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Funny

No one buys their car simply because their cars are garbage.

Rofl. *Sigh*

rddragoness

From a business standpoint I believe they need to restructure, not be bailed out. I can't see why any layman should lose the retirement or benefits that they worked so hard to earn. Their unions were our 401k's an IRA's. It was a way to make sure that those that learned their industry and stayed with it by educating themselves were rewarded, much as our technological jobs do now. The thousands of dollars that were spent on current education to get the 6 figure jobs that some hold should be rewarded in the same way. Would you want to lose your retirement after spending all that money and working so hard to get where you are? These are grandfather's and grandmothers that stand to lose everything if they go under. ..............and their grandchildren, and great grandchildren OUR age that chose that occupation to sustain them. What about those that work for parts houses....Who will take care of these people? The tax payers........US. Restructure, yes.....and while on the subject of bailouts, AIG as well as other large companies are holding on to alot of their bailout money....but foreclosures are slowing down. Looks like Peter has learned to pay Paul and stay afloat after all. The BIg three will too.

There's an old saying......what a person looks like from the outside reflects who they are inside.....I've noticed that there seems to be a trend where the loss of bottom cracks and underwear within sight has changed as well. Everyone has tightened their belt. Time for the big boys to do it too.

pianoman

Exactly.

And now they can stay around a little while longer so we can prove this even more....

I want a new Z06 in my driveway as a "thank you" card from GM.

delhi

all i can say is if I think the detroit 3 should be bailed out, I would've bought their cars.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

The whole problem with bailout is that : It sent a clear message to these companies, which is "If you're big enough, no problem, you can do what EVER the hell you want. Even if you're going to risk every one's life/money. We will save you in the end"

Not to mention, where the money came from? I can tell you right now. All the bailout money came out of thin freaking air. This government has no money at all + trillions of debt.

This will bite everybody in the US back one day. watch.

max5roadster

There are more than 3 automakers and if they do dissolve, others will be expanding and hiring to take up the space. No job is ever a guarantee. You want equal outcome, give me your freedom and I'll make you the same as everyone else.

I think the best thing is for them to bust. A clean slate with no where to go but up... Makes you look ahead instead of dreaming about the days of yore...

rddragoness

Yes it will come back to bite US in the *** one day, but when.....In our lifetime, in our childrens or theirs? Right now we need to worry about keeping ourselves afloat so there will be room for improvement by the up and coming generations. The dollar is not worth a damn over seas true...but if we make a concerted effort to "buy american" because it is still out there, then we keep that money in this country instead of overseas.

Freedom doesnt mean equality, I don't know where you came up with that one. All people have been free since the ending of the slave movement, but that doesnt mean that they were all equal.

In an idealistic situation a clean slate would be wonderful, but the majority of what the big three are fighting for is not the salaries of their ceo's.....its the pensions of those laymen that have put in their time. Their lack of sales of the big SUV's and hopes of bringing back the past lore of the muscle car's that have failed so miserably, have been what has hurt them. Those sales have only failed because of other factors in the economy that have been happening for the last 3 years or so. It's just now in the last 8 or so months been brought to a world wide media frenzy, so we are all aware.

Some say that their products are not as good...interiors are 'cheesy" is one word I hear alot. Well....look at it this way.....a base model mustang is 18K.....a new base model 8 is 25k or there abouts. Most have the same options like tpms, antilock brakes, and so on. In a comparison to the leather in my 05 GT "stang and an 06 GT 8 I looked at, the seats were of the same material, just designed different......so why is our car 7k higher? Import taxes.

You dont see them sitting on the side of the road.....nor do you see the HHR's or new cobalts or Impala's.....New Jeeps, Crown Vic's.....they are just as reliable...I can go out and crank up my 07 Jeep and get it in it and go if I choose too when its 10 degrees outside.....not the 8, but my Toyota Supra I would if I had too. Its not what they are making that are unreliable, and now that the fuel prices have gone down it's not even a factor....They are just the latest victim of whomever repealed the laws that set guidelines in place to prevent a market crisis, due to housing again.......just as they did back when the savings and loan crisis happened before.

The trickle down effect to places like auto parts stores, parts manufacturers that are still around, the steel industries would be completely destroyed. That would put more people out of work and tax our already heavily burdened welfare system. Bankruptcy in this case is just not an option.

With the onset of technology this country has essentially moved on to a different plane where reliance on our own industry is non existent. What most fail to remember is, it was the back breaking hard work of those in not only this industry but mills and mines, that made this country great. It will be the tradesmen that still remain if we can save them that keep us from going belly up altogether.

kersh4w

iTrader: (3)

nice. finally somebody with the same idea i have.

$25 billion dollars?

that would pay the salary to A LOT of people. so let the big 3 fail, give all the workers 6 months - 1 years salary, ending when they get a new job if they get a new job before the 6mo/1 year is up.

we'll save tons of money. and let the big 3 restructure themselves in a way that is profitable.