Allch Chcar

To be fair I don't have enough information to discuss it. I'll concede for now and we bring it up when the next development occurs. With the API and Pro-Ethanol groups waging advertising and PR campaigns, it's possible this will come up. If what you say is true the API would be wise to use that as a fact to support their position.

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

TankerG is right, here at the refinery we use Kolor-Kut, every tank has a little water in it, usually not a problem, we just need to subtract the water level to accurately calculate the oil volume. The paste is white and turns red to the level of water on the tape.

A small amount of water is all it takes to 'phase' ethanol/gas into two layers, you can try it at home, folks! We use fancy co-solvents and propanol to prevent phasing, but it won't handle much water.

S

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Api cant beat lobbyist, and you can always get any kind of research data you want as long as you set the right question

PEOple in brasil probably just wanna trash their cars every few years for fun?

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

For First Time, E.P.A. Proposes Reducing Ethanol Requirement for Gas Mix (NY Times)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/16/us...Y&ei=5065&_r=0

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Ethanol never made any freaking sense, its really the lobbyist and greedy politicans who loves them

BigCajun

iTrader: (1)

I don't know where I read it, wish I would have bookmarked it, but there was a recent article about the collateral damage done to the environment because of the ethanol issue.

In the rush to cash in on the incentive program for the production of ethanol, farmers, especially in Iowa, have plowed under millions of acres of conservation lands, which previously had been set aside for land management and tall grass prairie conservation, among other things.
In doing so they have released millions of pounds of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, created massive top soil erosion problems, added huge amounts of nitrogen based fertilizers into the environment, which has compounded the problem of agricultural runoff into the watershed, which in turn has contributed to the expansion of the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico.
This will in turn affect the environmental and economical situation of Gulf Coast residents.

It seems it is acceptable to ravage the Midwest & Gulf Coast where millions of people live, yet the sparsely populated Alaskan wilderness is deemed more valuable, and oil & gas production is severely limited there.
Meanwhile, fracking, which has the potential for enormous environmental damage in the continental U.S. is rampant.
Not to mention the impact of the decades old oil industry on the destruction of the coastal wetlands of Louisiana, which at one time acted as a buffer, weakening the destructive force of hurricanes.

BigCajun

iTrader: (1)

It was an AP story about the secret costs of Obama's green power push to ethanol.

Allch Chcar

The API is a lobbyist organization.

Brazilians love their ethanol, it's a source of patriotic pride.

BTW, this will not alter the availability of E10 at the pump. This just means RIN prices will drop. Which is the best move for now, IMHO.

What is abnormal is that the EPA denied a waiver during a major drought but approved a waiver due to "lack of infrastructure."

reddozen

iTrader: (1)

The Brazilians also use cane sugar as a base instead of corn. It's a much cleaner ethanol, and takes less energy to produce. Corn ethanol is a joke.

Allch Chcar

They also use hydrous or "wet" ethanol instead of requiring it to be anhydrous or "dry." Which reduce the energy costs by 30% or so.

Production costs are about the same. Brazilian sugar cane is labor intensive compared to American Corn Ethanol. So it's not without flaws.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

I go for the better mpg and less poisonous crap, and thats not ethanol.


Did u just dodged my question again?

Love? Only farmers love them, ask a car owner there see if they love it?

Its a start, time to get rid of that bullshit

So its abnormal to get rid of crap?

Allch Chcar

The API doesn't even say that because it's patently false. The EPA, CARB, and American Lung association all have data showing that 10% Ethanol is cleaner than Gasoline.

I talked to a Brazilian. They love their Ethanol, but they still choose at the pump depending on the price. Problems with Ethanol were back in the 70's when Ethanol was first introduced, same as US. Now everything is required by law to run at least 25% Ethanol. Big surprise but, no issues. They have more problems with Gasoline going bad.

That last part of your post is blatantly trolling so I'm going to ignore it.

NotAPreppie

Welcome to the Internet: please leave your logic and facts at the door.

I prefer ethanol to MTBE as an oxygenating agent any day of the week. But I'm just not sold on its viability as a fuel replacement (above 10%) given our production limitations.

The problem that most gearheads in the US have is that ethanol has been sold to the government by the industry as a wonderful panacea that it just isn't. Is it better? Definitely. But it's not enough of an improvement (given our production limitations) to be worthwhile.

Also, there are enough US citizens that hate the fact that our government even exists that they latch onto the slightest negative aspect and then employ every known logical fallacy to support that one negative as evidence for how awful EVERYTHING is. Never mind that it was capitalism that generated the bad situation to begin with (ADM, et al. using the legal lobbying mechanisms to try to find new uses for corn crops to drive prices up for farmers).

Honestly, I think that if ethanol were so incredibly better, BP, Exxon-Mobil or Texaco would have gotten into bed with the farm lobby and found ways to produce so much damned ethanol so cheaply that we'd all be swimming in it (and drinking it, too).

Karack

oh the humanity! E15 is going to destroy our cars and kill the environment!

yeah.

it's 5% more ethanol folks, it's not going to hurt anything. most cars have been drinking 10% ethanol for several decades unknowingly.

the only thing that bothers me about all this is that it takes nearly as much diesel fuel to produce a single gallon of ethanol, so why bother? it's a filler and only slightly cheaper. it's a waste of farm space, it wastes crops for fuel consumption which costs fuel to produce... if the trucks that hauled the crops used ethanol and transported it then it would make much more sense, but trucks use dino oil, if anything we are using more gasoline byproducts and using the gasoline resources at an even faster pace than if not. this isn't some shift to being self reliant on alternative fuels because no one is currently designing a high torque engine that uses crop fuel, to power rigs or trains with.

the offset to produce ethanol is less than the 10-15% will be to make it.

to me it seems like a way to line people's pockets and call it "green".

Allch Chcar

I mostly agree with you. Although I believe that Ethanol has some use as a buffer and potential as a next gen fuel in the future. I mean it's high octane, 33% oxygen, and chemically the same whether it comes from Corn, Sugar, or Cellulose.

Many Oil companies did buy into Ethanol early on and some bought Ethanol Plants. But they sold out a couple years ago. Now that Gasoline is over $3, all they care about is tar sands.

Speaking of which, what is your opinion on tar sands?

Regardless of that, Mazda has announced that they will not warranty vehicles that run anything but what is listed in the owner's manual. E15 is most likely going to be 87-89 AKI Octane too.