Delphi, GM and the Media
10-13-2005, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by brillo
With the recent bankruptcy declaration of Delphi and the potential impending bankruptcy of GM as a result, I’ve found it interesting that the media is not taking the usual liberal spin on the situation. What I mean is, I would figure you would have all these articles on how the poor, union workers are being screwed by the big corporations, the usual class warfare stuff, but amazingly, the media seems to be exposing the truth behind the absolutely crazy compensation packages of these autoworkers.
This could be really interesting as the UAW decides what to do in terms of negotiations, because there cries for help are starting to fall of deaf ears. If they lose the media/PR war, they are really hosed, because the politicians will be even less likely to come to there aid. It puts the big 3 in a much better position to dictate terms, and the UAW basically has to take it.
On another random note, I wonder if the Delphi bankruptcy judge realizes he will be setting the precedent for the future structure and organization of the entire American auto industry, no pressure there.
Now, I for one don’t think that the UAW works should be making Macdonald’s wages, but by the same token, many of these workers make more than I do and I have a college degree and 5 years of banking experience. Many of these workers make including benefits, more than $100,000 a year, whether they work or not. This is ridiculous, and is going to have to change. I’m sorry, but I don’t feel sorry for you if your going to get your wages cut from $100K plus down to $50-60K a year as a line worker.
Actually, if the big 3 can modernize their plants, which would use fewer workers, the remaining employees would prolly get more than that.
Overall, these financial troubles will be a good thing, kinda like the increase in the cost of gas. It hurts at first, but something has to be done to improve the efficiency of the U.S. auto industry, or the whole thing will die. I’m sorry for those that are hurt by the cuts and changes, but the long term benefits will make it worth it.
Maybe, before I die, I will be able to drive an American car I actually want.
This could be really interesting as the UAW decides what to do in terms of negotiations, because there cries for help are starting to fall of deaf ears. If they lose the media/PR war, they are really hosed, because the politicians will be even less likely to come to there aid. It puts the big 3 in a much better position to dictate terms, and the UAW basically has to take it.
On another random note, I wonder if the Delphi bankruptcy judge realizes he will be setting the precedent for the future structure and organization of the entire American auto industry, no pressure there.
Now, I for one don’t think that the UAW works should be making Macdonald’s wages, but by the same token, many of these workers make more than I do and I have a college degree and 5 years of banking experience. Many of these workers make including benefits, more than $100,000 a year, whether they work or not. This is ridiculous, and is going to have to change. I’m sorry, but I don’t feel sorry for you if your going to get your wages cut from $100K plus down to $50-60K a year as a line worker.
Actually, if the big 3 can modernize their plants, which would use fewer workers, the remaining employees would prolly get more than that.
Overall, these financial troubles will be a good thing, kinda like the increase in the cost of gas. It hurts at first, but something has to be done to improve the efficiency of the U.S. auto industry, or the whole thing will die. I’m sorry for those that are hurt by the cuts and changes, but the long term benefits will make it worth it.
Maybe, before I die, I will be able to drive an American car I actually want.
2.What do you call a Crazy compensation Package?
3.$100,000 a year? I work for a Large multinational Union company and in order for me to make that much money I would have to work 80 hours per week .
4.Companies who use unionized workers are 27 percent more productive, according to a recent report published in Scientific American.
The report revealed unionized workers have a strong system in place to negotiate for the rights and conditions that lead to improved productivity. Union workers also are more comfortable in bringing job specific changes to management because of job security.
The New York Federal Reserve Bank and Tufts University commissioned the report. It included more than 1,500 companies throughout the United States.
5.If you have never worked for a large company ,worked split shifts,forced to work overtime, forced to work all holidays,worked in extremely hot,cold,smoky,dusty,dangerous,and physical environment, you don't have a clue anyway!
10-13-2005, 03:25 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by rled
1. Union workers do not get paid whether they work or not! If you don't show up for work you don't get paid.
2.What do you call a Crazy compensation Package?
3.$100,000 a year? I work for a Large multinational Union company and in order for me to make that much money I would have to work 80 hours per week .
4.Companies who use unionized workers are 27 percent more productive, according to a recent report published in Scientific American.
The report revealed unionized workers have a strong system in place to negotiate for the rights and conditions that lead to improved productivity. Union workers also are more comfortable in bringing job specific changes to management because of job security.
The New York Federal Reserve Bank and Tufts University commissioned the report. It included more than 1,500 companies throughout the United States.
5.If you have never worked for a large company ,worked split shifts,forced to work overtime, forced to work all holidays,worked in extremely hot,cold,smoky,dusty,dangerous,and physical environment, you don't have a clue anyway!
2.What do you call a Crazy compensation Package?
3.$100,000 a year? I work for a Large multinational Union company and in order for me to make that much money I would have to work 80 hours per week .
4.Companies who use unionized workers are 27 percent more productive, according to a recent report published in Scientific American.
The report revealed unionized workers have a strong system in place to negotiate for the rights and conditions that lead to improved productivity. Union workers also are more comfortable in bringing job specific changes to management because of job security.
The New York Federal Reserve Bank and Tufts University commissioned the report. It included more than 1,500 companies throughout the United States.
5.If you have never worked for a large company ,worked split shifts,forced to work overtime, forced to work all holidays,worked in extremely hot,cold,smoky,dusty,dangerous,and physical environment, you don't have a clue anyway!
The automotive unions however, the worst case of organized labor on the planet.
10-13-2005, 05:05 PM
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Anybody who has nice things to say about their union is either a union rep or has benefitted from union representation in the past to get them out of some sort of disciplinary issue with their supervisor. I've been in 2 unions...UFCW and the Teamsters...and I can tell you that these union's biggest contributions of the last 10 years is fostering an increasingly nasty "us against them" relationship between workers and management. To this day the most lasting impression I have of both unions are 1.) the ridiculous union dues and 2.) lazy stoned losers retaining their jobs after repeated and multiple run-ins with management because the union "got their back".
Like the anti-trust suits of the early 20th century, Congress needs to begin reigning in these abusive unions. Like somebody said earlier, the pendulum has swung the other way. Whereas 100 years ago unions brought an end to unfair labor practices and unsafe working conditions, now they've essentially become a gang of bullies threatening work stoppages whenever something doesn't go their way.
If you want to see the end result of mass unionization go to France for a week. You've got minimally educated factory workers doing 32 hour weeks and getting 6-8 weeks paid vacation per year...yet every single fricken day there is a massive union organized strike. Every day! I work with many French born men and women and they see unionization and socialism as partners in crime. They'll readily admit that France is broken. There is no way for a hard working blue collar employee to get ahead because they're all just a small spokes in the giant unionized wheel.
Like the anti-trust suits of the early 20th century, Congress needs to begin reigning in these abusive unions. Like somebody said earlier, the pendulum has swung the other way. Whereas 100 years ago unions brought an end to unfair labor practices and unsafe working conditions, now they've essentially become a gang of bullies threatening work stoppages whenever something doesn't go their way.
If you want to see the end result of mass unionization go to France for a week. You've got minimally educated factory workers doing 32 hour weeks and getting 6-8 weeks paid vacation per year...yet every single fricken day there is a massive union organized strike. Every day! I work with many French born men and women and they see unionization and socialism as partners in crime. They'll readily admit that France is broken. There is no way for a hard working blue collar employee to get ahead because they're all just a small spokes in the giant unionized wheel.
10-13-2005, 05:40 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by brillo
We haven’t even gotten into the macro economic implications of GM truly crashing and burning for the U.S. economy.
10-13-2005, 08:42 PM
#30
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It's about time something like this happened to get the ball rolling. It's a sad, sad situation for the thousands of workers who will be forced to change their way of life, but the reality is that whatever comes of this will be better for the long-term health of the domestic auto industry. Hopefully the union leadership eventually realizes that it is not in their best interests to strike. If the labor contracts are thrown out by the courts, and the union decides to strike, it will be a case of mutually-assured destruction. Sure, the workers will have stood up for what they believe in, but they will have nothing to show for it as their jobs will all be gone.
The UAW leadership and company management both share the blame for this mess. It's ridiculous to blame only one party or the other. The UAW leadership has been extremely greedy in demanding compensation levels that far exceed those of comparable workers, and management has been extremely short-sighted in agreeing to such contracts. Unfortunately, it's the average worker who pays the price for these mistakes. It's not only hourly workers who are suffering--thousands of salaried workers have been laid off as a result of the uncompetitive cost structure, and the layoffs will continue for quite some time.
The UAW leadership and company management both share the blame for this mess. It's ridiculous to blame only one party or the other. The UAW leadership has been extremely greedy in demanding compensation levels that far exceed those of comparable workers, and management has been extremely short-sighted in agreeing to such contracts. Unfortunately, it's the average worker who pays the price for these mistakes. It's not only hourly workers who are suffering--thousands of salaried workers have been laid off as a result of the uncompetitive cost structure, and the layoffs will continue for quite some time.
10-13-2005, 09:10 PM
#31
Bummed, but bring on OU!
A UAW assembler makes on average, around $26 per hour. A skilled worker makes on average, around $32 per hour. I'm no proponent of unions, but these people have to work alot of overtime to earn $100,000 per year. That overtime actually saves the companies money, since they don't have to hire more workers and give them benefits. There are plenty of skilled professions, that don't require tons of formal education, where overtime can put you into 6 digits. Cutting the wage in half is not a good way to save the company. Those skilled workers will go away, and the product will just degrade. Streamlining production at all levels, and therefore minimizing the number of workers required is an exceptionally better way to cut employee costs. Bankruptcy might just be what is required to do that.
10-13-2005, 09:25 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by rled
1. Union workers do not get paid whether they work or not! If you don't show up for work you don't get paid.
2.What do you call a Crazy compensation Package?
$50/hour for a job that requires no college education or no technical certification (tech school, cert program, etc... NO in-house "free" ****).
3.$100,000 a year? I work for a Large multinational Union company and in order for me to make that much money I would have to work 80 hours per week .
As far as pay rate goes... my uncle works for a large multinational manufacturer. Actually he is a manager in the production line/factory. He makes pretty decent money. Maybe not $100k, but plenty good for someone without even a community college degree.
4.Companies who use unionized workers are 27 percent more productive, according to a recent report published in Scientific American.
The report revealed unionized workers have a strong system in place to negotiate for the rights and conditions that lead to improved productivity. Union workers also are more comfortable in bringing job specific changes to management because of job security.
The New York Federal Reserve Bank and Tufts University commissioned the report. It included more than 1,500 companies throughout the United States.
The report revealed unionized workers have a strong system in place to negotiate for the rights and conditions that lead to improved productivity. Union workers also are more comfortable in bringing job specific changes to management because of job security.
The New York Federal Reserve Bank and Tufts University commissioned the report. It included more than 1,500 companies throughout the United States.
5.If you have never worked for a large company ,worked split shifts,forced to work overtime, forced to work all holidays,worked in extremely hot,cold,smoky,dusty,dangerous,and physical environment, you don't have a clue anyway!
I've done shift work too and been asked to cover the next shift because someone is sick. That was 24x7 no holidays. Until only recently you could smoke in most if not all building/offices in Japan. You certainly could in the city hall I worked for and the Assistant Section Chief smoked like a chimney.
So what's your point?
Americans...
10-13-2005, 11:01 PM
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We have a Delphi plant here, and I've heard a lot of stories about ridiculous B.S. that goes on their. Some of the janitors there make as much as teachers, or more. This one clown got fired for sleeping on the job or something(not the first time it had been an issue), of course this is TOTALLY unfair, and he cried about it, so his "union boys" got him his job back, and his backpay, plus the overtime he WOULD have gotten since it was during a busy time of year. That's just one example. I've heard worse.
10-14-2005, 06:01 AM
#34
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1. Union workers do not get paid whether they work or not! If you don't show up for work you don't get paid.
2.What do you call a Crazy compensation Package?
3.$100,000 a year? I work for a Large multinational Union company and in order for me to make that much money I would have to work 80 hours per week .
4.Companies who use unionized workers are 27 percent more productive, according to a recent report published in Scientific American.
10-14-2005, 07:22 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by 280RX-8
We have a Delphi plant here, and I've heard a lot of stories about ridiculous B.S. that goes on their. Some of the janitors there make as much as teachers, or more. This one clown got fired for sleeping on the job or something(not the first time it had been an issue), of course this is TOTALLY unfair, and he cried about it, so his "union boys" got him his job back, and his backpay, plus the overtime he WOULD have gotten since it was during a busy time of year. That's just one example. I've heard worse.
10-14-2005, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Steiner
Anybody who has nice things to say about their union is either a union rep or has benefitted from union representation in the past to get them out of some sort of disciplinary issue with their supervisor. I've been in 2 unions...UFCW and the Teamsters...and I can tell you that these union's biggest contributions of the last 10 years is fostering an increasingly nasty "us against them" relationship between workers and management. To this day the most lasting impression I have of both unions are 1.) the ridiculous union dues and 2.) lazy stoned losers retaining their jobs after repeated and multiple run-ins with management because the union "got their back".
Like the anti-trust suits of the early 20th century, Congress needs to begin reigning in these abusive unions. Like somebody said earlier, the pendulum has swung the other way. Whereas 100 years ago unions brought an end to unfair labor practices and unsafe working conditions, now they've essentially become a gang of bullies threatening work stoppages whenever something doesn't go their way.
If you want to see the end result of mass unionization go to France for a week. You've got minimally educated factory workers doing 32 hour weeks and getting 6-8 weeks paid vacation per year...yet every single fricken day there is a massive union organized strike. Every day! I work with many French born men and women and they see unionization and socialism as partners in crime. They'll readily admit that France is broken. There is no way for a hard working blue collar employee to get ahead because they're all just a small spokes in the giant unionized wheel.
Like the anti-trust suits of the early 20th century, Congress needs to begin reigning in these abusive unions. Like somebody said earlier, the pendulum has swung the other way. Whereas 100 years ago unions brought an end to unfair labor practices and unsafe working conditions, now they've essentially become a gang of bullies threatening work stoppages whenever something doesn't go their way.
If you want to see the end result of mass unionization go to France for a week. You've got minimally educated factory workers doing 32 hour weeks and getting 6-8 weeks paid vacation per year...yet every single fricken day there is a massive union organized strike. Every day! I work with many French born men and women and they see unionization and socialism as partners in crime. They'll readily admit that France is broken. There is no way for a hard working blue collar employee to get ahead because they're all just a small spokes in the giant unionized wheel.
10-14-2005, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Japan8
Based upon the construction example posted above, I think you may notice how you misinterpreted the words. You get paid to sit around idle at work.
100% of insurance costs paid for by your employer.
$50/hour for a job that requires no college education or no technical certification (tech school, cert program, etc... NO in-house "free" ****).
That's you. Are you a a UAW factory line worker at GM? I didn't think so. Besides... work 80 hours a week? yeah... and? I do about 50-55 hours a week... nice and relaxing compared to my previous job at a foreign IT company. Talk about a long day... 12-14 hours a day in the office and then I often did another 2 at home! There are many people who stay at work overnight or work so late they just sleep at work instead of going home. So prevelent there is even a word for it... tetsuya. You wanna learn about working your *** off... come work for a JAPANESE (not foreign) company in Japan.
As far as pay rate goes... my uncle works for a large multinational manufacturer. Actually he is a manager in the production line/factory. He makes pretty decent money. Maybe not $100k, but plenty good for someone without even a community college degree.
Got a link for that study? Sounds pretty subjective to me.
Go back and read what I wrote under #3.
I've done shift work too and been asked to cover the next shift because someone is sick. That was 24x7 no holidays. Until only recently you could smoke in most if not all building/offices in Japan. You certainly could in the city hall I worked for and the Assistant Section Chief smoked like a chimney.
So what's your point?
Americans...
100% of insurance costs paid for by your employer.
$50/hour for a job that requires no college education or no technical certification (tech school, cert program, etc... NO in-house "free" ****).
That's you. Are you a a UAW factory line worker at GM? I didn't think so. Besides... work 80 hours a week? yeah... and? I do about 50-55 hours a week... nice and relaxing compared to my previous job at a foreign IT company. Talk about a long day... 12-14 hours a day in the office and then I often did another 2 at home! There are many people who stay at work overnight or work so late they just sleep at work instead of going home. So prevelent there is even a word for it... tetsuya. You wanna learn about working your *** off... come work for a JAPANESE (not foreign) company in Japan.
As far as pay rate goes... my uncle works for a large multinational manufacturer. Actually he is a manager in the production line/factory. He makes pretty decent money. Maybe not $100k, but plenty good for someone without even a community college degree.
Got a link for that study? Sounds pretty subjective to me.
Go back and read what I wrote under #3.
I've done shift work too and been asked to cover the next shift because someone is sick. That was 24x7 no holidays. Until only recently you could smoke in most if not all building/offices in Japan. You certainly could in the city hall I worked for and the Assistant Section Chief smoked like a chimney.
So what's your point?
Americans...
2.My hourly wage is 18.79
3. I am an electrician with a 3 year apprentice program and ongoing training to be able to trouble shoot electrical systems , including programable logic controllers,RS logics,electromagnetic casting, crane repair,welding certification, Combustion training on remelt and tilting furnaces,Broadband networks,and the list goes on.
4.Sounds like you have a hard on for unions for some othe reason to me!
10-14-2005, 06:57 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by Japan8
Based upon the construction example posted above, I think you may notice how you misinterpreted the words. You get paid to sit around idle at work.
100% of insurance costs paid for by your employer.
$50/hour for a job that requires no college education or no technical certification (tech school, cert program, etc... NO in-house "free" ****).
That's you. Are you a a UAW factory line worker at GM? I didn't think so. Besides... work 80 hours a week? yeah... and? I do about 50-55 hours a week... nice and relaxing compared to my previous job at a foreign IT company. Talk about a long day... 12-14 hours a day in the office and then I often did another 2 at home! There are many people who stay at work overnight or work so late they just sleep at work instead of going home. So prevelent there is even a word for it... tetsuya. You wanna learn about working your *** off... come work for a JAPANESE (not foreign) company in Japan.
As far as pay rate goes... my uncle works for a large multinational manufacturer. Actually he is a manager in the production line/factory. He makes pretty decent money. Maybe not $100k, but plenty good for someone without even a community college degree.
Got a link for that study? Sounds pretty subjective to me.
Go back and read what I wrote under #3.
I've done shift work too and been asked to cover the next shift because someone is sick. That was 24x7 no holidays. Until only recently you could smoke in most if not all building/offices in Japan. You certainly could in the city hall I worked for and the Assistant Section Chief smoked like a chimney.
So what's your point?
Americans...
100% of insurance costs paid for by your employer.
$50/hour for a job that requires no college education or no technical certification (tech school, cert program, etc... NO in-house "free" ****).
That's you. Are you a a UAW factory line worker at GM? I didn't think so. Besides... work 80 hours a week? yeah... and? I do about 50-55 hours a week... nice and relaxing compared to my previous job at a foreign IT company. Talk about a long day... 12-14 hours a day in the office and then I often did another 2 at home! There are many people who stay at work overnight or work so late they just sleep at work instead of going home. So prevelent there is even a word for it... tetsuya. You wanna learn about working your *** off... come work for a JAPANESE (not foreign) company in Japan.
As far as pay rate goes... my uncle works for a large multinational manufacturer. Actually he is a manager in the production line/factory. He makes pretty decent money. Maybe not $100k, but plenty good for someone without even a community college degree.
Got a link for that study? Sounds pretty subjective to me.
Go back and read what I wrote under #3.
I've done shift work too and been asked to cover the next shift because someone is sick. That was 24x7 no holidays. Until only recently you could smoke in most if not all building/offices in Japan. You certainly could in the city hall I worked for and the Assistant Section Chief smoked like a chimney.
So what's your point?
Americans...
10-14-2005, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by rled
Furthermore ,your asumption that all the jobs in union shops can be performed by stupid lazy stoned losers shows your lack of knowledge of the whole subject.
Originally Posted by Steiner
To this day the most lasting impression I have of both unions are 1.) the ridiculous union dues and 2.) lazy stoned losers retaining their jobs after repeated and multiple run-ins with management because the union "got their back".
10-14-2005, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rled
1. I do not have 100% insurance coverage!
2.My hourly wage is 18.79
3. I am an electrician with a 3 year apprentice program and ongoing training to be able to trouble shoot electrical systems , including programable logic controllers,RS logics,electromagnetic casting, crane repair,welding certification, Combustion training on remelt and tilting furnaces,Broadband networks,and the list goes on.
4.Sounds like you have a hard on for unions for some othe reason to me!
2.My hourly wage is 18.79
3. I am an electrician with a 3 year apprentice program and ongoing training to be able to trouble shoot electrical systems , including programable logic controllers,RS logics,electromagnetic casting, crane repair,welding certification, Combustion training on remelt and tilting furnaces,Broadband networks,and the list goes on.
4.Sounds like you have a hard on for unions for some othe reason to me!
http://www.econ.ubc.ca/riddell/561lec24.pdf
10-14-2005, 08:04 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by Steiner
we had a known crack-head working in the bakery, a butcher who bought and sold steriods, and a bagger who sold meth and would try to get hit by customer's cars so he could sue.
10-14-2005, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by zoom44
and which one of them did you call the police on?
BTW...The steriod guy eventually got busted because one of his customers had a massive stroke. The guy was also a customer with a wife and three kids.
10-15-2005, 10:26 AM
#44
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Originally Posted by rled
Read this in depth study !
http://www.econ.ubc.ca/riddell/561lec24.pdf
http://www.econ.ubc.ca/riddell/561lec24.pdf
Did you actually read that report summary? It gives pretty good support to the core points being made here. Simply that the gain in productivity are little if any while there is a significant loss in profitability directly proportional to wage gains made by unions. In addition market capitalization drop 3.8% as investors/shareholders flee due to the reduction in profit. Unions driving companies under if deemed "inconclusive" at this time.
I don't see how this study supports your argument.
10-15-2005, 10:41 AM
#45
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I know from a meeting that i had at work last week that, with all the GM bankruptcy woes the company will never go bankrupt. Period. its just not going to happen, they could do this which was told to us. which would save the company millions of dollars but overall it would hurt the company image. 90% of the vehicles that the goverment uses are sold or leased by GM,
The Delphi bankruptcy is a no brainer. Look at all the products the produced in the last 5 years. HUGE money was invested to promote the Quadrasteer and Envoy XUV products when in less then a year the XUV's had over $6000 in rebates just to get rid of the products. Delphi's problem wasn't horrible products but more too expensive to make consumers want to purchase the products over the generic types. i remember when you could buy a regular x-cab pickup for $____ and the Quadrasteer was 6000 or so MORE. It was a need idea but for 120 more a month i would settle with what i have been using since GM starting making trucks.
sorry i am rambling. but GM is what puts food on my table, my family bought a GMC dealership back in 1991 and have made it the 6th largest dealership in the country. Gas prices haven't really done anything to hurt our sales either.
The Delphi bankruptcy is a no brainer. Look at all the products the produced in the last 5 years. HUGE money was invested to promote the Quadrasteer and Envoy XUV products when in less then a year the XUV's had over $6000 in rebates just to get rid of the products. Delphi's problem wasn't horrible products but more too expensive to make consumers want to purchase the products over the generic types. i remember when you could buy a regular x-cab pickup for $____ and the Quadrasteer was 6000 or so MORE. It was a need idea but for 120 more a month i would settle with what i have been using since GM starting making trucks.
sorry i am rambling. but GM is what puts food on my table, my family bought a GMC dealership back in 1991 and have made it the 6th largest dealership in the country. Gas prices haven't really done anything to hurt our sales either.
Last edited by VarneyMazda; 10-15-2005 at 10:43 AM.
10-15-2005, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Japan8
ubc.ca? The University of British Columbia? Ok...
Did you actually read that report summary? It gives pretty good support to the core points being made here. Simply that the gain in productivity are little if any while there is a significant loss in profitability directly proportional to wage gains made by unions. In addition market capitalization drop 3.8% as investors/shareholders flee due to the reduction in profit. Unions driving companies under if deemed "inconclusive" at this time.
I don't see how this study supports your argument.
Did you actually read that report summary? It gives pretty good support to the core points being made here. Simply that the gain in productivity are little if any while there is a significant loss in profitability directly proportional to wage gains made by unions. In addition market capitalization drop 3.8% as investors/shareholders flee due to the reduction in profit. Unions driving companies under if deemed "inconclusive" at this time.
I don't see how this study supports your argument.
Last edited by rled; 10-15-2005 at 08:29 PM.
10-15-2005, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by zoom44
you're blaming the union but every single person who knew about them and did not call the police is just as bad including you.
10-16-2005, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Steiner
That may or may not be true, but it certainly has nothing to do with anything we're talking about here. We're talking about continued employment in the midst of habitual incompetence, not criminal prosecution. They are two very different things. The criminal acts they were commiting were also not directed at their employer or fellow employees. If they had been harassing coworkers or stealing from the store then yes...management would have likely called law enforcement AND the union to intervene. However their crimes indirectly effected their employment and, as such, the burden of proof to justify employee dismissal still falls entirely upon management. Moreover even criminal charges, by themselves, would not have been enough to guarantee termination. That's the thing about these damn unions. There are so many layers of bullshit that have been designed to protect the least common denominator of employee.
10-17-2005, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by rled
I don't know where you get your information,but if you get caught doing drugs,fail a drug test,get caught stealing, come to work drunk,you are Fired. I don't know of anyone at my location who has gotten their job back after any of these occured.10 years ago if you were addicted to drugs or alcohol,you could be sent to dry out and then come back to work after signing a last chance document. That does not happen these days. Any criminal act will get you fired for good!