rotary crazy

RX-8 with 287hp is a lot faster than an evo or sti around any track. I got tired of laping evos wen my RX-7 had only minor mods and the RX-8 turs bether.

Steiner

I should have known you were asking a loaded question. :p It'll take longer for the traditionlist companies like Ferrari, Lotus and Zonda to experiment with AWD. On top of that, with a mid engine/rear wheel drive setup you get near perfect 50/50 weight balance and limited traction issues because much of the weight sits on top of the back tires anyways. A lot of the reason for AWD is improved traction and handling. However sooner or later all performance car companies will offer an AWD car IMHO. It's just a matter of time. Porsche has embraced it. So has Lamborghini - which means Ferrari is at least debating the idea within their engineering and design circles. As you leave the supercar companies you get into manufacturers like Audi, Saab, BMW, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mercedes, Jaguar, Mopar, Ford, etc. Hmmm. No Mazda. Maybe their AWD prototypes went boom boom boom instead of zoom zoom zoom. Or maybe they simple don't produce anything with enough nads to merit a better platform.

Yes, AWD sucks for anything except rally. That's why so many racing sanctioning bodies have banned its use. Maybe they're worried the AWD cars will jump the track and go hunting for shortcuts through the mud and tall grass. That must be it.

On the Porsche of North America website their 6 fastest, most powerful 911 models are all AWD: Carrera 4S, 4S Cabriolet, Turbo, Turbo S, Turbo Cabriolet and Turbo S Cabriolet. They don't even offer anything over 355hp with RWD. Where are you looking?

From the Porsche website...

The all-wheel drive system has a multi-disk viscous coupling and transfers between five and 40 percent of the tractive force permanently to the front wheels, giving the two new coupes excellently balanced performance on bends until close to the handling limit, absolute straight-line stability up to top speed and improved traction on slippery roads

Is the RX-8 your first car? Just curious. Hold that thought.

The RSX-S is an excellent handling car with a great transmission, limited slip transaxle, and a nice high revving engine. They do just fine in autoX competition. He's beaten plenty of RWD cars in his class. Handling is not just about the drivetrain though. Have you seen what Alfa Romeo's FWD cars are doing to BMW over in European racing right now.

Here's a better example for you though. Guy from a forum always takes his E36 M3 to autox. Does very well, but gets nabbed occasionally by the occasional WRX, SRT-4, Miata, S2000, etc. He sold the M3, bought an STi, and has been cleaning up his division now. He's currently considering an Evo 9 when they come out this summer.

For every $100 you spend modding that ticking time bomb of an RX-8 rotary, I'll spend $50 on my car and wipe my *** with your car. What world do you live in where 287whp is enough to beat an Evo? There's guys running 450whp on the stock bottom end out there. I've yet to see any RX-8 do that...well unless somebody dropped a small block Chevy under the hood.

Post some dyno slips for us when you get a chance. I think you're full of ****.

NomisR

AWD is only good for putting to use with all your wheels traction. However, typically a car would only use it's rear wheels for acceleration as the weight of the car is shifted backwards so traction for the front wheel is pretty much limited. On the other hand, the front wheels would be more used for turning and braking as weight transfers forward. AWD helps when you are in scenerios where traction is limited as with rally tracks, snow or rain conditions. In normal conditions, RWD beats AWD because of lower weight and less complex design. And weight typically is the most important part of all racing because it helps with handling and responsiveness of the vehicles, why else would racing teams spend millions on shaving a couple pounds?

khtm

No, it's not my first car. I've also had an '80 volvo and an '86 accord. What's your point? This isn't about me. All I said is that your example was terrible.
Well, you were comparing it to an Evo, and you're on an RX-8 forum, so it's an excellent handling car compared to what? A minivan?
Better example, yes.

NomisR

AWD is a good setup because majority of the people buying those multi-million dollar cars cannot drive. They want something that's not difficult to drive, and does not require a lot of skills to drive fast which is why they're offered on the lesser performance oriented vehicles.

AWD is offered simply not mainly for performance reasons but for market. Car companies are there to sell cars, not to fulfill their dreams, there has to be compromise from what the market wants. If the market wants AWD, they have to give it.

Additionally, 50/50 weight distribution is not the optimal weight distribution as the media and masses would like you to think, the most optimal weight should be around 40/60 or at least with a slight weight bias towards the rear.

Eitherway, the AWD fad is like the FWD fad in the 80-90s, it's not always because it's better performing but people don't want to learn how to drive, it's the easier way out for those that want to go fast and not have to think. Thats the problem today, people don't want to learn how to drive, people want to have the cars drive for them.

j_s2000

lets talk about your "most powerful 911 offered"...from porsche website...or any magazine if you care to bother to look


porsche GT2....is offered with 456hp ...RWD...faster than all the above porsche you've mentioned....

http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coup...he/index1.html

porsche carrera GT, fastest porsche offered, RWD...605hp....again faster than any awd porshe offered.

http://www.caranddriver.com/?section...del=CARRERA+GT

porsche gt3, best handling machine offered from porsche, RWD, again better on track than any of the awd porsche offered.


basically any porsche on the GT level are ALL RWD....speed, handling, you name it....ALL RWD...no exception.....

the fastest porsche, carrera GT is RWD......0-60mph under 4 sec......

NAVILESRX8

iTrader: (1)

Front engine rear drive cars are great.............

BlueEyes

they're alright, theres better places for the engine :p

playdoh43

RWD probably is a better platform for performance than AWD.

but that does not mean any RWD car can outhandle an AWD car. Evo is certainly way faster than a RX-8. Motortrend managed to luanch a stock EVO from 0-60 in 4.61 seconds with a 3200 rpm clutch drop. And any competent normal driver can do that in 5 seconds. It handles better too. EVO literally feels like a go kart. The steering is extremely precise, you can move the steering wheel a tiny bit and the car would respond instantly. It has better skid pad number and better slalom speed than the RX-8. The only car that Ive driven that even come close, but not quite on par with the EVO in handling is the honda s2000. If you feel exhilerated to take a turn at 60mph in an rx8, you can take the same turn at 75mph in an EVO.

Im just saying being RWD dosnt guarentee youd handle better than a AWD car. EVO handles better than most RWD cars out there short of porshes and exotics.

DARKMAZ8

The reason why AWD is starting to show some pull in the major markets is because it's versatility for daily driving. Like you said, someone with less skill can take an AWD car and look like a pro. As far as supercars, It's all about balance and light weight. Which AWD systems still lack. Maybe if they didn't ban AWD in F1 we'd see an AWD Ferrari but don't think for a second that they banned it because of the cars. It's banned because less driver skill is envolved and that would make for some boring racing. BTW, the lambo AWD has got some sour reviews from traditionalists and we'll see if lambo keeps that system in the future.

ALSO, how dare you insult mazda???!!!!I believe the ms 6 is AWD.

Feras

iTrader: (1)

Steiner: the EVO is a fast and excellent handling car in fact for the price nothing comes close and even for twice the price only a handful of cars are faster and handle better.

But when it comes to the best cars in terms of performance really nothing beats a car with RWD there is no real arguable dispute. Take the top ten exotics in the world and nine of them will be RWD. While yes lamborghini does have an AWD platform, its not their fastest car, same with porsche.

but im with blue eyes the ultimate is the mid engined rear wheel drive car.

X-MAN S

You beat me too it Also MAZDA is a part of FORD.
BTW It still hard to imagine an F1 awd car outhandling a mid engine rwd F1 car. Especially with the added weight of the awd system. :o

X-MAN S

The EVO sole purpose is to race. That is it. Being AWD does not guarantee better handling either. And yes, an RX-8 outhandles most RWD cars out there also. More impressive is that it's sole purpose is not race. What is your point? The EVO is a nice car, but compare it to a RWD car that is built to race.

NomisR

Again this is comparing apples or oranges here. You're comparing a 30k toy vs a 30k GT car, different characteristics. Speed wise you have to remember the Evo has about 50 more hp than the rx8, it has nothing to do with what wheel drive the car has. Same with steering. Basically you're comparing performance of two difference cars with two different chasis and drivetrain, it has nothing to do with the performance of FWD or RWD. If anything, i'd compared AWD and RWD vehicles of the same model and you should get the performance picture. Try 3series or G35. Hell or even Diablo VT vs SV

X-MAN S

Agreed. Until M. Shumacher starts driving AWD F1 cars, than maybe there will be a bigger argument for it.

X-MAN S

That is a idea.

th1rd3y3

That makes WAY to much sense. It's way easier just pull random ideas out of one's behind in a futile effort to prove something that can never be proven.

RX8SpdDmn

Well, I'm not "looking" anywhere. I worked for a Porsche dealer. Porsche is not currently selling a GT2 or GT3 until they reintroduce them for the new 997 chassis. And, btw, a RWD 911 Carerra IS faster than a Carerra 4. Now, all the models you mentioned are the 996 models. The next-gen turbo will be out next year and a prototype GT3 has already been spotted. Turbo models and cabriolet models are in the works, as well. If you look at any of the Carerra vs. Carerra4 models of the past (you can't compare a C4S to a C2 because the S gets the Turbo's suspension, brakes, and wheels/tires), the 2wd Carerras are faster.

It's also relevant to try to evaluate the best combination of drive wheels by looking at race cars because the sanctioning bodies usually dock the fastest cars with weight or set-up restraints to keep the racing competetive. For example, look at the Speed World Challenge series. BMW would kill everything if it weren't docked so much weight. When they were new, they did kill everything. The TSX made it's debut with fwd and was racking up as well, but they'll be docking that car with weight, as well, to keep the racing exciting.

The only way to evaluate the drive wheel advantages is to take a car and set it up with fwd, rwd, and awd. Or RWD vs AWD, since that's the real argument. Look at the Porsches for example. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd see that there's no advantage for a skilled driver to having awd, when you consider it's drawbacks against it's advantages (and I'm not saying that is doesn't have advantages).

MTLbroker

Ever lose traction in an AWD? Under normal circumstances, well within the traction limits, AWD will kill a RWD.

Break loose, and the RWD will have a slight chance of a recovery. AWD, almost impossible. Experience: BMW 325iX, lost traction, didn't know how to get car under control.

RWD was always able to bring the tail end back.

With an pro driver, AWD will beat RWD.

With the average driver, when limits are exceeded, AWD give false sense of security. Average drivers better with AWD.

BlueEyes

AWD is banned in F1, so it will never happend

BlueEyes

AWD is not "almost impossible" to recover. You just don't know how to drive it.

MTLbroker

Exactly, I lost a 325ix once....... a someone explained it to me that you have to do what is counterintuitive...... nail the throttle and steer, not hold the throttle and steer.

But being new to AWD, overwhelmed by false sense of security that the car was invincible. Live and learn. All I meant was that a good RWD telegraphs its limits to the driver. AWD, exceeding limits is like a quantum event.

NomisR

Well basically, to regain control of an AWD car, it can basically be driven more like a FWD car, just point and go.

Steiner

Whatever dude. I looked on the North American Porsche website. Congrats. You used to sell Porsches and then you bought a Mazda. And it is possible to compare apples to apples. The 1st generation DSM's were all offered in AWD. They obliterated their FWD counterparts in handling and grunt out of the hole. I suppose the superiority of rear wheel drive is the reason why the RWD Nissan Skyline has such a cult following outside of the US, rather than the AWD version.

I absolutely do know what I'm talking about. I've owned and driven high-powered RWD, AWD and (yes even) FWD cars. As technology improves AWD drivetrain loss will continue to decline. If it weren't for the parasitic drivetrain loss associated with the front transaxle this wouldn't even be a debate. Engineers are also improving the reliability of the platform constantly and sooner or later somebody's gonna develop an AWD platform that is either 100% front biased or 100% rear biased depending on the driving conditions. My money is on Nissan or Audi.

As far as AWD being a fad. To an extent I agree, but only as it relates to luxury cars like the Acuta RL, Infiniti G35 and that new Lexus whatever. That kind of demographic needs a bus pass - not a 350hp, 4500lb, ginormous AWD projectile with countless interior gadgets to help further distract the driver. In performance circles it's certainly not a fad. Rather it's the future IMHO.

LittleJohn

I thought the Bugatti Veyron just climed this title.. and I believe it's an AWD..

EDIT: sorry.... why are we comparing cars again?? is someone not happy with their purchase and needs to justify it??