Aeterna

Not sure exactly where to put this reference, but I figure this might be a chance for Mazda to push Ford into financing MUCH MORE $$ into the hydrogen-rotary concept and make it more cost effective. The article mentions Ford's involvement, but again Mazda needs to flex its 'ingenuity' muscle and show Ford "Hey look, we're already a GIANT step ahead"

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ers_fuel_cells

Aeterna

I was actually working on a novel about this sort of thing; it was going to be riddled with big business conspiracies and what not. It was going to be based on an urban legend. Something akin to a research scientist or crackpot engineer who discovers a way to produce a highly-efficient motor with unlimited potential that runs on hydrogen and how the Big Oil companies and even some governments would stop at nothing to kill the scientist, his/her research and destroy the engine to protect their interests. I wanted to add some flair to it though, something that would attract the commercial market and make the general population want to read it. Sadly, I found the only way to do this would be to add 'Fast and Furious' motifs to an excellent and thrilling plot line.

I don't know if the world is ready for 'The Fast and the Furious Fysics' lessons of hydrogen power and possibly 'Why the rotary engine is better than sliced bread' lecture... :D :D :D

nbthing

Could turn into a good novel ... even if you do have to throw in some gratuitous action scenes (Michael Crichton pulls off this balance pretty well -- he manages to dazzle readers with descriptions of new and exciting technologies, or at least convincing buzzwords about those technologies, while also weaving in action elements). I've gotta say, though, throw in some business dealings with Howard Hughes, and it sounds like the plot line from the movie "Tucker."

globi

Read this:
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/arti..._hydrogen.html
Hydrogen is no real alternative. Biodiesel and Ethanol makes more sense.

tiggerlee

Here's more info on the RX-8 RE
http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame...hp&carnum=1792

therm8

Hydrogen is one of those fuels that look good on paper. But do you really want to be driving around with a 10-15000psi bomb in your trunk??? I don't. Alcohol is the way to go.

TopGear

Look at the new Accord hybrid - faster 0-60 than the version without the electric motor plus better milage.

There was a thread going on this forum somewhere about adding a small electric motor to the Rx-8 - that seems to make a ton of sense - help the low end torque, improve the fuel consumption and have a car that handles well.

mikefrombarrie

15000psi?!!?

I knew that the hydrogen tanks were a danger, but 15000psi is this figure correct?

JM1FE

It takes more energy (and therefore more $$) to grow the corn and process it into alcohol than you get from the alcohol that's produced. Energy from alcohol doesn't even sustain its own production, let alone produce enough to use for fueling vehicles. Alcohol as a fuel is a myth perpetuated by midwestern farmers who want subsidies, and by related corporate interests (ADM).

Hydrogen can be obtained from coal or natural gas. It can also be obtained from water given enough of an outside energy source (nuclear, or focused solar).

The only 'growable' form of fuel that may work is biodiesel, since it takes less energy to get oil from (for example) corn than it does to get alcohol from it.

rotarygod

Anything that has natural sugars in it and can be fermented can be distilled into ethanol. Corn, barley, wheat, rice, sugarcane, fruits, sap, etc... It isn't only corn that has this ability. That is just what is easiest to use here. Asia could make use out of rice. Any fruit crops that go bad can be used. It is not a myth of an alternative. It is the only alternative that makes sense and can be easily made to work with any car with little effort. Any country that can grow anything an be a contributer. This rules out most of the middle east too which is a huge benefit!

You don't need refineries or any fancy machines to obtain it from other sources. Think outside the box to make it more efficiently. We have a bad habit of over complicating things. You let products ferment which is done by yeast. No machines, just holding tanks. This yeast can be reused or recycled as fertilizer. This yeast sediment that is left over is very high in Vitamin B and can easily be disacarded anywhere without harm to the environment. The next step after fermentation is distillation. All you need is heat. Many different ways to go about this. Here is a simple solution. If it is in a windy climate, windmills can provide electric power to electric heating elements to heat the water much like those in a home hot water heater. There's a simple solution. If it's near a river, use water power to generate electricity. No outside costs. There are only a couple of byproducts of distillation. Those are water and ethanol. You can reuse the water and the ethanol is obvious. This does not have to be a big complicated or expensive to run project. Hydrogen is much more cost prohibitive and requires more effort with less benefit.

Hydrogen also is far more dangerous. A several thousand psi bomb waiting to go off in the car somewhere and it is very flammable and more likely to accidentally ignite should an accident occur. Ethanol is less flammable at 110 octane and actually isn't terribly flammable in liquid form. It needs standard pressures to store it. No bomb waiting to go off and less flammable. You'd be safer in a wreck.

I can't think of any reason to use Hydrogen over Ethanol except as an excuse to get more money out of people. In the end it won't matter what alternative fuel sources we end up using. People will find a way to make it expensive for the rest of us.

rx8wannahave

YUP, what he said...

I agree that Ethanol should be our fuel of the future instead of hydrogen. Also, the last thing I want is my car competing with me, my lawn, pet's, etc for water. There is big talk here in FL about our aquifer running out of water in the future....so, leave water out of it.

JM1FE

Why would hydrogen extraction have to take place from groundwater?!? The ocean is far more convenient. Instead of offshore drilling platforms you could have offshore hydrogen platforms. 3 ready sources of energy (wind/wave/sun) to power the operation, no pollution from leakage, all operations conducted safely offshore (as opposed to our current refineries), easy shipping, and you can actually solve freshwater shortage problems by doing desalinisation and shipping water onshore. With 'grown' fuel, you have to worry about weather, crop diseases, overplanting/soil depletion, and the plants will be competing with us for fresh water, so your argument is moot.

rx8wannahave

Yeah, but the hydro tank issue scares me too...

Oh, and taking water from the ocean to power all the cars in the world just seems to me like not a great idea. Water sustains life...maybe you don't like growing fuel either but again I don't like adding cars into compitition for water.

Time will tell what will happen, maybe we can find something in Area 51 to help power cars...lol...

therm8

How is it that alcohol is a myth perpetuated by farmers, but biodiesel is not? I don't care what the alternative fuel is, as long as it is easily renewable, and is not hydrogen. Biodiesel looks like it'd work, I wonder how emissions compare to alcohol though.

zoom44

biodiesel is a joke. note who wrote that pice in the first link

hydrogen is the way to go no doubt in my mind.

globi

Who cares who wrote it, it's the content that is important and what this group claims makes a lot of sense.
If you ignore the fact how much electric energy you need to produce to generate hydrogen in the first place and if you ignore the fact of how tricky it is to transport pressurized hydrogen and if you ignore the fact that hydrogen is highly flammable, how are you solving the transportation issues given the fact that pressurized hydrogen has only 6.4% of the energy content of Diesel?
http://www.osti.gov/fcvt/deer2002/eberhardt.pdf

Let's face it: Hydrogen is an alibi for car manufacturers and politicians to pretend that they care about the environment, it is however not a solution at all.

Also any Diesel powered vehicle can essentially drive on vegetable oil (Biodiesel is indeed not even necessary).

http://www.greasecar.com/

In addition soybean oil costs currently about $2 dollars a gallon. So even if algae farms wouldn't work, soybean oil is already pretty competitive.
http://www.distributiondrive.com/Article15.html
Do you even have an idea how much hydrogen costs? Do you know that hydrogen that is currently available is produced with fossil fuels, because producing it with electric energy is simply not cost effective at all?

Actually it's common knowledge that Brazil has partially been running on Ethanol for almost 40 years. So this statement is obviously false.
http://www.energybulletin.net/2120.html

Btw www.google.com is a nice tool, should you not be sure about something.