globi

Dude, here's your sportura collection:
http://images.google.com/images?q=sp...al&sa=N&tab=wi

I don't know what the big deal is, storm came up with that kind of design over 10 years ago already:

http://www.stormwatches.com/home.htm

Anyway, you can't seriously compare a $10,000 IWC watch with some Seiko thing.

rodrigo67

ok, so ford sales show some improvement lately, but let no one be surprised. Over 50% of ford sales come from it's truck line, leaving less then 50% coming from it's car lineup. Let's look at what imaginative ford offers.

The ford focus- decent average entry level car which also doubles as thier entry level sports car when equipt so. hp 130-151, leaving it far below competitors. Reaching end of life. (almost every other company beats this entry car hands down).

The ford fusion- nice mid level car, well equiped, nice price, hp 160-221. Nice power, one of fords better cars. ( accords v-6's start at 17K, and hyundai's come better equiped and cheaper+ far better warrenty)

The ford 500- decent large car, 207 hp, decent options but starts getting pricey at the higher end where competition offers better. Much better then the Taurus. ( with 300's, chargers and magnums all starting in this price range, there are more exciting cars out there)

They are still listing the Taurus at the ford website so I'll include it- decent large car, hp running from 153-203, seats 5, good price. Getting dated, and nearing end of life. (what isn't better then a taurus)

The ford crown vic- aging large car, hp 224-239. Good price but far below competitions offerings. Good options, and decent basic large car. ( if it wasn't for cops, would this still be produced)

The ford mustang- very nice muscle car, leader in it's catagory and best bang for the buck that you can buy. hp 210-300, very good price and excellent value. This is fords best car at the moment.

The ford Gt- very nice super car, nostalgic emotional connection. hp 550+. Super fast 0-60 1/4 times, but handling not up to competition costing tens of thousands less. Very hefty price for a ford. Rear heavy and not as well balanced as others in it's class ( and this coming from fords own website on the GT).

Thats it...1 sub standard entry level car, 1 nice mid level car, 3 large cars which 2 are outdated and outclassed, 1 excellent muscle car and 1 nice super car. Other then the mustang, fusion, and 500, the rests are outdated and outclassed. As far as the fusion and 500 go, they are decent, but when compared to other competitors, they just don't stack up, and with others offering 10 year warrenty's...

The better of these cars, except the mustang, are just average decent basic tranportation. There is no excitement or imagination. Someone should tell ford there are more to cars then building basic sedans.

Japan8

Uh yeah. Try researching before answering. Ford has owned a share of Mazda since the 70's.

Yep yep... that's what I keep trying to tell the Ford haters. Been my experience and most everyone I know (who has owned a Ford). Definitely better than my experience with Honda.

Japan8

Not my taste in watches. I'd rather spend my money on a Grand Seiko Automatic. Or just essentially get the same thing for less in a regular Seiko Automatic which is made at the same factory in Japan, assembled by hand by the same people who do the Grand Seiko. Oh yeah... that's right... that's what I did do.

TheColonel

w00t! Seiko! I've got two. One cronograph that's two tone gold and stainless and another stainless with diamonds on the face. Good watches.

BlueEyes

I created a thread in the lounge for watch talk so that we don't have to hijack Bascho's thread.

https://www.rx8club.com/lounge-4/watches-seiko-boy-81711/

tiggerlee

^ Nice work

Sportura_Collection

Oh yes you can. We're talking only about design. Not about jewels, name , etc., which is where the price differences come from. If you don't understand this, then you don't know the watch industry.

I would suggest you guys look first at the entire collection of TAG Heuer. I challenge you to find one that looks better than a seiko sportura. Then go search other brands.

Sportura_Collection

I agree with everything you say. Finally, someone with some common sense brains.

I would like to add that the Ford 500 is virtually invisible in the minds of the public; people don't even know the damn car or the name exists. Also, the Mustang has several strange physical characteristics that the Chrysler variations don't have. And the Challenger is coming.

It's almost as if Ford doesn't have a cohesive passenger car lineup. It's just a few lonely and sad bits and pieces here and there.

Hornet

Honestly, I'm not the most fond of Ford! The reason has nothing to do with the quality of their products or bad experience with them. It's more of a difference in taste! For the most part the other "Big 3" companies have had more cars that captured my heart and imagination (moreso GM). Cars like the Corvette, Olds 442, Camaro, GTO, and the list goes on! My Dodge list is considerably smaller but the Viper alone crushes what I might of liked about Ford which is only maybe a past Mustang or 2. If it makes it any easier I'm not extremely fond of what Honda has offered through the years either (the NSX was great but just not enough).

btw, I can't argue with the statement that the 500 is practically invisible. Seriously, I can randomly think of about any car a whole lot quicker than this one and I'm the type of person that takes interest in a variety of different cars. It's not a thought and for it to gain success it needs to be for the general public!

sti_eric

The main reasons I personally don't like Ford are as follows:

1) They got trounced by the Japanese in the passenger car market, and instead of making better products, they quit and put all their focus on trucks/SUVs. Now that truck/SUV sales have slowed because of gas prices and now that the Japanese are building superior trucks/SUVs, what will Ford do?

2) Ford just doesn't make any exciting cars in my price range. Just look at the cars they offer:

Crown Vic - A very dated design that just gets blown away by cars like the 300C and Bonneville GXP.
Focus - another loser destined for the graveyard. One of the bottom dwellers in the cheap sport compact class, clearly behind the Civic Si, RSX, SRT-4, GTI, etc.
Mustang - I was excited about the new design when it first came out, but every time I see the car, I like it less and less. Sitting in one makes me like it even less. Not at all what I had hoped. Maybe a 450hp+ supercharged engine would change my opinion, but I'm not going to pay upwards of $70K for one (some dealers are asking MSRP+30K).
Fusion & 500 - two new designs that were already behind the moment they came out. Usually when a new car comes out, it immediately rockets to the top place in mag comparisons. Not these two. I can see little reason for buying one when you can get an Accord, Camry, Sonata, Altima, Maxima, 300, Avalon, Legacy, etc.

Nothing exciting there. The only exciting, affordable cars come from Ford subsidiaries, and even then, the pickings are slim: Mazda3, Mazda6, MX-5, RX-8, and Volvo S60R. Hmm, the most exciting cars are coming from Mazda, the one subsidiary that Ford doesn't completely own. Coincidence?

So, which of the Big 3 is doing the best financially? That would be Chrysler. Let's see what exciting cars they have come out with in the last few years: PT Cruiser (got everything rolling), SRT-4, Crossfire, 300C, Charger, Challenger, Magnum, along with SRT versions of each. Build something worth buying and maybe you'll start doing better.

globi

Sorry for the hijack.
Granted, you can't argue about taste, but frankly I'd even prefer my nieces Mickey Mouse watch over that 4-eyed Sportura collection.

JOHNRX8

I love the latest Ford Commercial where Ford Jr. basicly admits getting their asses kicked by forign compition. Then he promises that ford will now be inovative. Gees Ford, why start now?
I agree their car line up is almost funny, Personaly i dont like their trucks either.

bascho

The Five Hundred was not trying to be the 300. You have to remember, not everyone likes the attention the 300 gets. The styling is waaay out there and there is a large market of baby boomers that feel the 300 is gaudy. Five Hundred was the only mid/full-sized sedan to offer AWD in it's price range. Also, the interior of the Five Hundred is very attractive and those that test drove the Five Hundred usually purchased one. Not to mention the Five Hundred outsold the 300 in the last 3 months of 2005.

bascho

I agree that Ford abandoned the car market for several years....and Ford has acknowledged that. Ford is getting back into the market with the same mentality it applied to it's trucks. Ask the customer what they want and that is what you build. DCX is doing great right now because they had a head start on restructuring their company. Ford and GM will be where DCX is by 2008. Both Ford and GM have a ton of product coming out between 2005 and 2008.....just look at the line-ups. The Ford car nameplates Ford has used in the last decade are disappearing (except the Mustang). There will not be a 2007 Taurus, production of the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis is being reduced to 1 shift (basically enough production to feed Police depts and Taxi companies) and should be gone by 2008, there will not be a 2007 LS, there will not be a 2008 Town Car. Ford is already thinking about the future and is reacting to what everyone has said about them. What people don't understand is that it takes years to develop a new product. Everything you guys put Ford down for has been addressed last year and this year......the fruition of that change will not be seen until 2007/8. Relax, give Ford and GM a couple years to get back into the car business.... I can't tell you what we have coming.....but I can tell you that you will all be singing a different tune about Ford by 2010

globi

I'm not to crazy about the Focus lookswise, but I wonder why they don't sell the 225HP ST version in the US?
http://www.ford.co.uk/ns7/foc_c307/-/-/foc_st/-/-/-/#

In this case Ford had an answer to the SRT-4, Mini Cooper S, VW GTI etc.

dupa12345

hmm ok .. besides all your great analysis .. who has seriously looked at any fords to purchase as their new car

i looked at the focus svt back in 03 and didnt like it ... these days i would consider fusion though i would probably find competition to rule it out easy enough .. but no need to go there .. the more powerful model comes in auto only .. point and case

visitor

ford 500 owns you bitches. it also owns at laguna seca.

Rhawb

I think Ford's alright, if a bit boring over here on their home turf. They've got some good ideas in the pipes, it's just a matter of making those ideas reality and I think they can turn things around just like Chrysler has done. I don't quite follow the blind fanboyism in this thread. If Jaguar comes out with a car that doesn't bore me to death, I might consider it. I'm not going to limit my enjoyment of automobiles because some other people say that ford "sucks." If I like the car then screw em - I don't need them to enjoy my car for me.

Oh and Sportura. You might want to dial the attitude back a few notches. You're coming across as very immature.

cLLcLe

May God lay rest to my soul if I EVER walk into a Ford dealership.
There's a good reason why Ford is such a hot topic among car enthusiasts today. It's either love 'em or hate 'em.

Rupes

The problem is the ford 500 should have been like the 300. Fords lineup is always too conservative, and looks like something only the FBI would drive. Who cares how "gaudy" the 300 is, it's selling like crazy! What could matter more to a car company? Ford cars aren't selling as well because they won't take risks.

I didn't even know the 500 outsold the 300, that’s great news for Ford. I work at Enterprise, so I get to drive both. I can honestly say that I like the 500, I just would never buy one. I think that’s the whole problem with Fords lineup. They aren't bad cars it's just that in today’s market you need to be great to get consumers money.

Another problem I see with Ford (and GM) is they now have a reputation for making crap cars. Right now, they are making some solid cars but it might be too little too late. I met a guy that bought parts for some of GM's lineup and he told me that they put so much pressure to lower prices on parts manufacturers that the result is lower quality goods being put into these cars.

Not to go off on a tangent here, but I think the pension plans and unions are partly to blame as well. I heard something along the line of $2500 a car goes to GM's pension plan. They need to modernize this and perhaps look into 401k plans over pensions. Who knows, I’m sure they know more than I do about this stuff, but something needs to be done.

zoom44

i was at teh car show yesterday . took a good hard look at the new Ford product and came away actually impressed. The Edge is very nice and has what i consider ample room behind the second row. The Fusion is absolutely better than what it replaces. except as someone else said - the steering wheel is horrible. the button placemt is bad bad bad on the wheel. the freestyle i was impressed with too. there is more room behind the Third row then i expected and the third row folds easilyand flat. much better than someof its competitors.

but damn the Mercury Milan and the Lincoln Zephyr are , as has been pointed out, WAY WAY TOO similar to the Fusion. They could have at least got a better wheel for the Lincoln but its the same crappy one in all 3. They seriously seem more like package level differences then Brand differences. Ford must differentiate the brands better. I was standing there a with only a few feet between me at the Lincoln and someone at the Mercury. They mentioned the price on the Merc- 18,xxx. the Lincoln i was standing at ? 28,xxx. 10k for leather and some heated seats and a lincoln badge? oh and the V6 with poorer gas mileage than the 4cyl in the merc.

Japan8

I don't totally disagree with you... I actually agree on some points, but...

I agree on the passenger car part. Ford got dumb. The Ford Taurus was great during the time the SHO model first came out. When the next gen came.. it was a POS. Big ugly boat. The SHO model was a joke. It had a weak V8, came in auto only and the whole car was still an ugly boat. Ford claimed it was because auto sales were greater than manual with the SHO, but so freaking what. If you are selling a supposed sports model then you had damn well better offer a manual... even if it is an option.

As far as trucks go... Ford has always made excellent trucks. Like Chrysler and the mini-van, Ford got the SUV market going with the Explorer. Capitalizing on this was a good idea, but the ridiculous weight they put into this segment was stupid... plain and simple. Excursion... OTOH... you claim that the Japanese came back and beat Ford at trucks? Really? Name them. The Japanese still can't build a better truck. Name a Japanese truck that has a larger bed, higher towing capacity, more power and more configuration options (bed and cab). Exterior design and interior design... interior comfort and options... they still haven't done it. Go to construction sites... how many Toyota or Nissan full size trucks do you see? How about fleets? How about just work trucks in general? How many Japanese full-size trucks or even SUV's do you see pulling boats, trailers, etc.? The Japanese may be able to make a decent "car-like" SUV... but they haven't been able to top the big 3... Ford in particular at making REAL trucks.

No argument from me here. I agree... Ford 500... *yawn* , Crown Vic... they still make that?! Focus... sorry, but it's ugly. I'd take a mazda3 instead. Mustang... I agree. I loved the show car and the production car kinda let me down. The *** is really too long on that car and the "driving lights" in the grill are plain fugly. Interior is O K. If they were all done up like the GT500 inside... that would be MUCH better. The Fusion... styling isn't bad, but I still like the mazda6 better. The steering wheel is utter ****. Ford has a SERIOUS problem with being able to design a decent steering wheel for as long as I can remember. They make 1 design and use it in ALL cars and the design is usually blocky and crappy. The lack of a manual in the V6 model Fusion is the final nail in that coffin for me. No thanks. It's not such a big deal to offer one... the Mazda6 has one and they share platforms and engines. Stop being stupid Ford.

I think that Chrysler has been making more interesting cars... although like MB, all their freaking cars are automatic only. Between that and their crappy quality interiors (talk about cheap plastic!) and low reliability... none will ever grace my driveway... even the Challenger. I'd take a Mustang or wait to see on the Camaro.

Hornet

I think Ford needs to do something more along the lines of Daimler and GM and drop that V-8 in more of it's lineup as a performance upgrade. Daimler SEEMS to be doing it with more than half of their lineup. There's a Jeep Grand Cherokee with the Hemi in it that does 0-60 in under 5 seconds. The Hemi is available all over the place in the Daimler cars (with a few exceptions). GM to a lesser extent and in different ways decided to share the Corvettes engine with some of it's cars. The CTS-V had the last Z06's engine in it. The GTO has the current base Corvette's engine in it (I know it's not the best example of a car moving off the lots in bunches but dammit they did it). If they offer something like these I think it can only help!

sti_eric

That's because it didn't. As reported in the 'press release' section of ford.com and daimlerchrysler.com, US sales for the final 3 months are as follows:

Chrysler 300
----------------
Oct. 2005 -> 12,835 units
Nov. 2005 -> 12,647 units
Dec. 2005 -> 12,202 units
Total -> 37,684 units

Ford Five Hundred
-----------------------
Oct. 2005 -> 7,915 units
Nov. 2005 -> 7,456 units
Dec. 2005 -> 8,321 units
Total -> 23,692 units

Bascho, is there some piece of data that I am missing that you can provide? This is the second time that you posted sales data that conflicts with other information that I have found.