fluque

looks good but it's still a Pontiac....

Ole Spiff

That car has too many production-type details in it to be just a concept car. Windshield washer reservoir with plumbing? If it has those tires/rims available in the production model this is going to be one hot machine! I may have to just go look at one when they come out; I normally wouldn't consider a Pontiac but they sure got it right on the appearance of this one! I like the color too. My wife wants to look at one of the new vettes, but I think we'll have to put this car on the list of "must look at" cars. :D

wakeech

i completely disagree. the 'next-to-rice' scoops on either side of the lower duct inlet on the front (where on a race car you'd normally be drawing air to cool the brakes, on in the case of the RX-8 duct to oil coolers) and the 100% Mustang rear duct (which i'm positive is cosmetic only, just like the 'ram air' induction system) are just stupid. i really really like the rear diffuser, and am in love with the exhaust styling on this car: incredibly muscle, incredibly american, incredibly 100% function over form. it's the best way to have the exhaust for lots of reasons. for the wheels, i definitely think they should go with something more substantial, visually, something that says "muscle" and not "import/cool"

i hate the colour, but would be actually very close to perfect with as mentioned before, some bright yellow "The Judge" emblems... very remeniscent of what was it, Carnival Red or Carosel Red or something like that (yeah, it was orange).

i think it's a big HUGE improvement over the original GTO styling (the scoops on the hood which aren't quite too big yet make it actually look like a GTO) and could be really good for the brand. i just wish they'd stop trying to tell you it's a corner carver.

Ole Spiff

The front brake cooling scoops appear to be real; I zoomed in on one of the images with a graphics program and I can see the front tire through the scoop. The rear cooling scoops I can't get a good enough image of....one of the pix appears to let you see through to the tire but it's not clear enough to be certain. All the scoops have the same black mesh grill that's in the front grill. The ram air induction system is definitely real since you can see the air filters and induction plumbing in the engine bay matching up to the hood scoops.

They absolutely should add "The Judge" emblems. The color is very close to the old competition orange. In fact it reminds me a lot of the McLaren orange.

irish8

Nice. The tail pipes leave a bit to be desired?? Naa....

mpt_yellowRX8

Carousel Red! That is still one of the baddest cars you will never get the chance to see on the road! I like this one more every time I see it but I still would have to rework the exhaust. Maybe have them coming out of the side like the SVT lightning, except from both sides of course. It does look more like the current Mustang than I originally saw though. I'd still take it!

wakeech

just because it's a hole doesn't mean it has a function, and besides that for something so obviously cosmetic they're extremely ugly. that goes for both the front and back ones.

'ram air' is a phenomenon which does not exist. it is tantamount to nothing more than "cold air", which also is a molehill more than a mountain.

but yeah, goddamn that car does look really really really good.

Rotarian_SC

I couldn't live with the exhaust, it looks like a modern art "masterpiece". I would have to buy a side exhaust kit, other than that I think it looks great!

DynamicDookie

iTrader: (3)

huge improvement...body kits do work. the rear is weak and the exhaust looks like an afterthought.

still, pretty good for pontiac

shigginsrx8

Not bad, and I can't believe I said that about a pontiac.

Does this thing have a resonant airbox??

On a side note, this thing would look bad in black. And by bad, I mean good.
yeah, I am hip

T.T.

Why is everyone hating on the exhaust? I think it's original. I mean come on, they're just pointing down and to the sides, how does that ruin anything?

Ole Spiff

Then again, the hole just may indeed provide brake cooling....who knew? A lot of things on cars are "obviously" cosmetic, that's not an automatic negative.

Placing intake scoops at the base of the windshield which is a high pressure area for air flow will in fact "ram" air into the intakes, there are always adjustable doors inside those scoops to control the air flow so at higher speeds it doesn't cause intake problems. This was also a big feature in pony cars of the 60's of which The Judge was a well-respected member. A lot of us RX8 owners are in fact looking for aftermarket "cold air" intakes to replace our stock ones for the same reasons designers include them in performance cars like this. Mountain? no...but it's more than a molehill.

That's the best looking car I think Pontiac has designed in decades. I owned 3 Trans-Ams and I think it's a LOT better looking (and at the time I really liked the T/A's). If this makes it to production I'm definitely going to test drive one; not that I'll give up my 8 but it just might become a car for the wifey.

xSxxKxxYx

ya.... I think its HOT HOT!! but NOT the nasty exhuast..... sooo weird on da side like that...

wakeech

i hate the way those "speed holes" look (at the back, 100% mustang, and the front 100% rice), and they have absolutely no function.

ram air is a myth: the motor sucks air in at a rate considerably faster than the car is moving when accelerating hard especially from a stop, meaning that there is no advantage in having the motor draw from the outside. take a look at formula racers from decades past: in the 50's and 60's the trumpets drew straight in from the atmosphere, but at speed the trumpets were moving through the air at a considerable rate reducing the static pressure of the air "sitting" at the mouth of the trumpet, reducing vE, so entered the air box. this "settling chamber" allows the motor to draw air in at a high rate while allowing the air to slow and regain near ambeint static pressure maximizing vE. 'ram air' is a sales principle that works on people's inherent gullability and relatively low understanding of engine performance, but not that i blame you, it seems to make sense to those who wouldn't know better.

aftermarket intakes are hardly better than a cosmetic alteration, with an efficiency gain in fractions of a percent. cold air can help a lot when you're talking about a turbocharged motor as tempurature differences are compounded several times over the course of the intake process, but in all motor applications very little is there to be found when you already have a well sorted system.

Ole Spiff

Thank you Mr. Know-it-All. Ram air is based on aircraft design; ramjets in particular. Forcing cold outside air into the intake instead of pulling hot engine compartment air through an obstacle course of plastic ducting will help peformance; a little or a lot doesn't change that fact. It was changed on race cars to reduce drag, and if I recall correctly, there was a rules change in the 70's for formula racers to eliminate the top scoops to reduce power; cars were going too fast for safety at the time. After several well-known drivers were killed or injured, they started changing the rules to try and keep speeds down. Over time speeds went up anyways but safety and handling increased proportionately so it wasn't a problem.

I'm sorry you hate the look, most people like it, myself included. They DO have a function; sorry you're not willing to accept that. Even if the function is cosmetic; that in itself is a function. And I'm SO glad you don't "blame" me for not being at your exalted level...what a relief! I'll be sure and tell the aircraft engineers I get my information from that they don't understand what they're doing; I'll mention your name as THE authority, that should humble them instantly!

Production cars typically have never had "well sorted" systems; just practical ones for mass production. This is why entire industries are built on aftermarket performance parts. Any performance gains are always a percentage...so what? A system is just that; a "system". This means it includes more than just an intake, which is why it's best to do more than add a muffler, or add an intake by itself. To upgrade a system so that it IS well sorted, you have to modify several of the parts of it.

There....now I'm ready to be "corrected", put in my place, reminded that I'm ignorant and told how anything I say is a "myth", etc.

All the childish crap aside, I REALLY like the looks of this car; it's style, design, color and even the exhaust. If Pontiac has given it the performance to match its looks, then it will truly be a worthy successor to The Judge of legend.

mpt_yellowRX8

I watched a show on Speed about the 1965-70 HP wars by the major manufacturers and they had many of the guys who designed the Ram Air system for the old muscle cars on the show. They do work according to them and they admit that it is only about 10-15 HP. That is 10-15 extra on top of an already 400 or so, not a huge gain but still worth the hood scoops to most. They had dyno charts and other things to prove it so I tend to believe them. They work Wakeech, just not exceptionally well.

shigginsrx8

Whoa there Chiefy, settle down.

As an aircraft designer myself, I think ram air on a car is stupid. I whole heartedly agree with wakeech. It serves a purpose on high speed vehicles only, 150 mph ++ is usually a good rule.

for the record, the concept of ram air is not based on aircraft design, and not ramjets in particular. It is an aerodynamic phnomenon present in all moving fluids. The concept was applied to various aircraft engines.

For example if you are going 150 mph, the pressure gain when air is brought to rest at 100% efficency (impossible) is a mere 2.75 percent. More realistically for driving, at 75 mph you would be looking at about one quarter of that.

I don't really feel like talking about this anymore, so I'm not going too.

shigginsrx8

It would only be that much if they had constructed a resonant airbox to work in conjunction with the ram air scoop. I don't look at the tuner market too much, so I don't know if these cars have resonant airboxes, or even if manufacturers make them. I do know that the cars I have seen with ram air do NOT have resonant air boxes, and thus realize no performance gains.

mpt_yellowRX8

As many aftermarket folks have done in the past and present, numbers can be used to further your positon and help sales while not being exclusively true. I don't know what they had under the hood as far as air boxes but I know they were extremely quick and menacing. That makes them worth the money in my book. I think they helped, but they didn't make a seat of the pants difference.

Rob Tomlin

Cool looking car.

Too bad it's a Pontiac.

Ole Spiff

?? I haven't talked to you at all before so I don't know what the "anymore" is referring too... The auto designers of the 60's were trying to associate their car designs with jet, rockets, etc.; much of the styling, terminology and marketing were based on those concepts. That's not to say they were literally building ramjet cars, obviously not. The gains are minimal, but minimal is better than nothing when you're trying to eek out any gains you can. The primary benefit is direct outside air instead of under the hood air.

Are you wakeech? I've had problems with him in other forums, so that's the only thing I can think of when you say you're not talking about this anymore. Fine.

s13lover

I had also heard too that Ram Air is generaly a myth for cars, that it is no different than a cold air intake on top of the hood. Wouldn't having a ram effect mean that the air traveling through the intake be compressed slighly above atmospheric pressure, thus forcing, or raming the air into the motor? If thats true I don't see how to scoops with air filters directly below them would be ram air. This is all just speculation, so don't bash me if I am wrong.


Just as a side note, my dad sold Pontiacs a few years back. GM told their dealers that the "Ram Air" option on the Trans Am only added around 5 hp at 120 mph.

shigginsrx8

no no no, i am not weekech. I have discussed this a couple of other times this week, its starting to wear on me. It's not you, its the kid in the tim hortons parking lot with a "ram air" cavalier.

Cheers
Scotty

Omicron

I like it... MUCH better than the '04 GTO, which looks like a Cavalier. Only thing I'd change is the exhaust tips, but at least they're true duals exiting on each side of the car, as it SHOULD be.

Oh, and I'm not crazy about the color either. To be a "real" Judge, it needs to be red.

Ole Spiff

Okay...good enough.