'08 STi vs. '08 Evolution X
 

Instead of hijacking a current STi or Evo thread I decided to start a new one. Having this type of objective discussion on the STi or Evo boards is proving to be impossible. There are just too many goofy brand loyalists and folks who've already pre-ordered an '08 STi or Evo X. Thankfully we can discuss this subject more rationally on these boards. I'm especially anxious to hear the thoughts of guys like Rhawb, Saturn, VikingDJ, playdoh43, Ike, 9291150, dynamho, Akisan2, JRichter, Ajax, etc. My initial thoughts on these two cars are below...

The USDM Evo X is just too heavy! Mitsubishi has released the official specs and we're looking at 3600lbs for an MR and about 3520lbs for a GSR. That's a 300lb increase over the CT9A series (VII, VIII & IX) and right in line or heavier than popular sports cars like the E46 M3, G35 coupe and Ford Mustang. I know we should all reserve judgment until the car has been released and reviewed stateside but the laws of physics are stacked against it. Understandably this has a lot to do with the fact that the base Lancer is just an outright bigger car than its predecessor but, simply put, the new Evo can no longer call itself a compact. Hopefully the drive-train technology, added creature comforts and improved daily drive-ability can offset some of the newfound girth. I dunno.

The USDM STi is a hatchback! And while I'm sure nobody wants to turn this thread into a full-blown debate on the aesthetics of two performance driven cars, it has to be addressed. If we look at what Ford and Citroen has done in WRC with their hatches over the last 3 or 4 years it should come as no surprise that Subaru has made the change. They are serious about WRC and many of the professional rally drivers seem to like the neutral feel of the design. As an amateur American driver with a wife, child, and all the material shit that needs to be transported as a result of this lifestyle...I'm OK with the hatch. I'm also OK with the 3300lb curb weight, added HP/TQ, and improved chassis of the new STi. While a trick semi-auto tranny would also be nice for Bay Area traffic, I like the comfort of knowing this entirely brand new STi will be released with a proven transmission/engine combo. My list of "cons" is smaller but equally significant. For one, a 15 to 1 steering ratio would be a step backwards for me. I dunno if I could give up my 13 to 1 rack. Anybody who's experienced a quick rack understands how it contributes to overall driver feedback. Secondly...TMIC...ugh. Will an aftermarket company eventually release a street legal FMIC kit that won't endanger my life and void my collision coverage? Hopefully. And finally, why give the car a goofy (cosmetic) dual exhaust? Since this thread is for comparing the Evo and STi (and both cars have dual exhaust) it's really irrelevant, but it still bugs the hell out of me that I'll have to eventually replace it.

I'm just hoping that the Evo's crash test ratings will go up from 2.5 stars... a reason why I didn't want an Evo.

I've been doing some reading on the matter, and even though the Evo X is heavier than the IX, it is faster around the track. So, as with the last 3 incarnations of the Evo, they've all got heavier, but they've all compensated with more power and more electronics.

Here's an interesting article on the Evo X:
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...olution_x.html

Why not design a good chassis and drivetrain from the get go and dispense with the electricals. More electronics = more things to break. Also with less computers = less weight.
So with an increase of 300lbs, it is still as fast as the previous gen? Either the scales are wrong or Mitsu deliberately underquote their hp numbers.

AWESOME! I've always wanted a detailed description of two completely the same, yet totally different tuner grade Corolla's!

Good find. It's definitely a car with broader appeal than the VIII or IX. I've always personally enjoyed the looks of disdain and bewilderment from the uneducated status quo (see the post above for a great example) so it would be weird to see business professionals sporting this car like a Mustang, 350Z or M3. I'd also be interested to know if that review was based on the JDM or North American version of the X though. Not to beat this point to death, but it looks like there are some significant differences when it comes to curb weight.

Having test driven both of the previous cars, and bought the STi, I would still go with the Subie.

The Evo IX was more nimble and responsive than the STi, but it felt cheap and I hated the reputation that Mitsu has when it comes to warranty. The STi struggled to rotate, but was an overall more solid and safe feeling car, and behaved very well at the limit.

I will try to drive both of the new versions, but just based on the numbers, an extra 300 pounds has to take away some of the tossability that the Evo IX had. The shorter wheelbase and lower polar moment of the hatch will make up for a lot of the previous STi's handling shoprtcomings. All other things held equal (which may not be a safe assumption), the subie should take the prize easily.

Interesting debate!

In the North America market it is only the 2008 Evolution, there is no "X" designation.

Even though it is heavier, the mass CG is lower than the previous model, handling is also up considerably. From 0.92 - 0.93G on the Evo9 to 0.97 - 0.98G on the 2008 Evo. It also is more composed, especially exiting corners, which the 2008 Evo does as well as most any top line sports car. Quite an accomplishment for an AWD vehicle.

Specs are nice, but they by no means define the actual attributes of a vehicle. Plenty of vehicles look good on paper and fail miserably on the road. BTW, there is a big stand-alone thread on the Evo on this forum.

https://www.rx8club.com/general-automotive-49/official-evo-x-thread-106809/

personally, i absolutely hate the look of the new STi. its a 4 door hatchback, WTF are the designers thinking. oh well, at least you can go get your groceries really fast

Lets face it, all cars are getting heavier so this was expected of both models. However, the rawness being stripped from both of these cars is what's my biggest concern. They will both be great cars still, but they will be different. Different in a similar way that the E30 M3 is different from the E46. The majority of people will appreciate the E46 more than the E30, but the purist understands what makes the E30 a special car and the E46 just a great car.

I was pretty sure I'd end up with either the new STI or the Evo X a couple months ago. Now I'm not so sure if I will end up with anything other than the car I'm currently driving. So, here's my breakdown of each car as I see it now.

Evo X: I bought my Evo over the STI primarily because of the amazing steering, it's better than any car I've ever driven. The reports of the tamed down steering and responses are troublesome to me. The other main reson I chose it over the STI is the tunability. The 4g63 is pretty legendary in that regard, if I wanted to put 600whp in it tomorrow all I need to do is show take it to AMS with credit card in hand. What will happen with the new powerplant is up in the air, I'm sure it won't be long before people are making big power but I'll be shocked if it has the capabilities of the 4g63. The weight is a little troublesome as well, but I can live with it if the drive is everything I want. I still like my Evo with a full tank and a passenger so the weight alone isn't enough to rule it out for me. Better interior, fine. Most people think it looks better, whatever. I didn't buy my Evo because it looks good and other people like it. Though I must admit, I'm shocked at how many compliments I get on my car and all the gawkers. Barely a week goes by without someone checking out my car in the parking lot when I'm walking out to it.

New STI: Let me start by saying, I love the hatch. Few Americans understand hatches or like them. I could care less what the average American thinks. Having a car that I love to drive with the utility that the new STI will have would be awesome. However, it's looking more and more like the new STI has been softened up and early reports are that there is more body roll and that it has even more understeer. Not good, I want a drivers car, not just a car with good numbers and utility. I'm not going to sacrifice the driving experience for a tarted up interior and the utility of a hatch. So again, it's a wait and see.

I don't doubt that each one of these cars are going to be viewed as better by most drivers. But, I'm not most drivers. Sure, every now and then I wish my car wasn't quite the "experience" to drive. Sometimes I just want to get in a car and get from point A to point B without feeling like I'm in some race car. However, most of the time I absolutely love the rawness of the current Evo. The razor edge steering, the big rush of the turbo kicking in, and the muscular gussied up econocar looks all are good things in my book.

The way I'm looking at it is the current Evo is the last of it's breed. It's the last of the homologation specials, even if Mitsubishi pulled out of the WRC and the homologattion rules changed long ago. The last car that I can afford that will ever have 1% of the market in mind rather the remaining 99%. For that reason the two new cars are going to have to be pretty amazing to make me trade my Evo in. I'll be perfectly happy with my ugly interior, bumpier ride, and less refined looks if the new cars don't live up to what I expect from a drivers car. If they let me down I'll just pay off my Evo and get something used for when I want something a little more tame to drive around. Maybe a used G35, RX-8, Forester XT, Legacy GT, or BMW 135. I'll also be at AMS with credit card in hand getting my GT35r kit installed.

i will admit it. i like the look of the evo 8s and 9s better than the new one. they just look raw, fast, sexy, and stunning. i was going to get one before i bought my 8, and one of my older friends took me for a ride in his, and oh man does it send you back in your seat. but then reality kicked in and even though i would be able to afford the monthly payments, i doubt i would be able to afford the insurance for an 18 year old kid with a turbocharged car. so the 8 was the 2nd choice, and im happy with it.

Good points here.

As daily drivers both may be a decent step foward. Finding one car that could be a real visceral driving experience but also comfortable and practical isn't easy. But most don't care about the "driving experience", my father in law is perfectly content with his Charger SRT-8 (he had to get a faster car than mine to charm the grandkids), but driving that thing always leave me uninspired. Still, the 425hp sold him.

Manufacturers can't be blamed for building cars that they think they'll sell more of, even if they loose their appeal to the 2%'ers out there.

i absolutly love how the EVO X looks.
i absolutly hate how the STi looks. (update: I absolutely love how STi looks)

Evo looks like none other.
STi looks like a Hyundai on steriods. (update: It still does but I love the hardcore look of it)

with that in mind, I would pick the EVO because the performance i believe is neck and neck. (update: I think I would go with the STi now)

Good choice. The Evo is the most expensive car to insure in the United States.

I'm right with you on these sentiments. For the last 10+ years of my life I've always just taken it for granted that the new version of my favorite make and model will be better than the one before it. While in the large majority of cases that still holds true, I think the new Evo/STi models force performance enthusiasts to debate the meaning of the word "better"...line item by line item. The changes are just so dramatic. Things are unfamiliar and, because of that, those usual feelings of needing a new car aren't really there. I'll wait and see what's been determined after the first 90 days of these cars finally hitting U.S. shores. I'm optimistic but also realistic and reasonably satisfied with what's currently sitting in my garage. However, unlike other enthusiasts considering the 135i, G37 or other RWD sports cars to replace their Evo/STi, I'm still drinking the AWD/turbocharged cool-aid. Because the new Nissan GT-R is a simply out of reach right now for me both financially and in terms of practicality, I'm crossing my fingers and staying subscribed to the "Evo vs. STi" debate for the foreseeable future.

i always think stizzies are teh way to go regardless. i just like subaru more than mitsubishi, flame on if you will. i believe in better quality brands.

I think I am pretty much done with hi-po AWD turbocharged cars. They were great during my younger days with stage this and turbo that. AWD allows me to just point and shoot easily. Very err... Playstation like. It does the stuff well without much drama. What these cars ultimately lack IMHO after having lived in the Subaru camp, is driving satisfaction.
RWD cars give me that in that when driven properly it delivers the level of feedback and satisfaction. There is this symbiosis on a properly sorted out RWD car without the whiz-bang AWD that one balances while rounding a sweeper or a fast S ribbon. Can't explain what. These AWD turbo-munsters dispatch the curves very efficiently however it is with the RWD's finesse that brings me more smiles. So neither STI/EVO will get my money.
But if I had to choose, it will be the STi because it is less garish.

You think they lack driving satisfaction because you came from the Subaru camp... When it comes to driver feel and "satisfaction" few cars can rival the Evo, and that includes the STi and especially the WRX.

I own/have owned 4 that can.

1. E36 M3
2. S2000
3. Miata
4. Elise

Those are all definitely great handling cars. Very different than an Evo but very good. The M3 is the only one I've driven though. I loved how balanced and tossable it felt.

Too bad Subaru assumes everyone in the US is obese. The seats on the STi are worse than the rx8 seats.

The seats are pretty bad and the seats in my '03 WRX were much better. On a side note, I saw a guy drive down my street a couple months ago in an STI and he looked like a freaking bowling ball. Was easily pushing 500 lbs. and probably a few cheeseburgers away from needing the jaws of life to pry him out of the car.

Propblem is only one of those cars might work as a daily driver in WI. and that one (the M3) doesn't compare to the Evo IMO. It was a great car, but I'd take an E30 M3 or Evo over one every time for pure driving fun.

Here, I do not think I'm being too subjective about this since almost everyone will agree. The evo has a questionable new look to it while the WRX is just ugly.

I've actually been a long time Subaru fan before I even had the 8; from what I've noticed the Evo's were always a little bit more nimble when it came to handling, but the STI's weren't too far behind. STI's have an incredible amount of torque and you can expect this will live on in the new iteration (I believe its stayin around 290 for TQ) As for the looks I'm probably going to give the edge to the Evo X, but not by much. I can understand Subaru for goin more "mainstream" in the design of the new Impreza but, its hard to deny that its looks are somewhat questionable. However as with the recent iterations of the STI's I have a feeling its going to grow on me once I actually see the car..... actually I think its already starting to grow on me... :icon16: Well theres my two cents.

Found a couple road test reviews for the new STi...

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...mpreza_wrx_sti

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do....photopanel..3

hahaha, all hail the "S":lol:

I love hatchbacks. The STI hatch is right up my alley as a daily driver, but I wouldn't be able to afford one anytime soon unless I unloaded both my Speed 6 and S2000 for it, which is not happening. It's a few years too late, which sucks, because I'd love to own one as a daily, and I'd likely never sell it.

The new STI coming out is great for everyone, and I firmly believe the fact that it's been softened up is a good thing. I just don't get raw economy sedans and hatchbacks, but nonetheless I loved my STI when driving it, until I got out of car and looked at it, and realized, this ain't a sports car, it's a cheap looking economy sedan.


I admired my 04 STI for it's rawness, but at the end of the day it was a 4 door sedan with a that lacked any real style and refinement, and people I know didn't like being passengers in.

To each his own, but I believe RAW should go back to sports cars. I guess I could just never fully get into a 4 door sedan as a fun car. I tried though.

Why the hell didn't they just make the STI a 2 door sports coupe in the beginning? ;)

Viking, I hear what you're saying but the other side of the argument is pretty compelling too. The other side of the coin says yeah...sure...we'd all love to have sexy high performance coupes but the reality is that many of us with families NEED the practicality, leg room, head room and cargo space of a 4 door sedan. It is a "need to have" when we go car shopping. Cars like the STi and Evo allow guys like that to incorporate an extra large portion of "nice to have" into their next car purchase. The thinking being, if I'm gonna be stuck with a family sedan I might as well find the funnest one I can.

That being said, I don't think either of these cars are bad looking. The new Lancer is a pretty decent looking car, even if the Audi-esque front end on the Evo X is not really my favorite look. The base model Impreza is pretty bland but the STi hatch, although not traditionally sexy, looks aggressive to me in a very WRC type of way.

I've been a bit misinterpreted. My point was based on people on this thread complaining about how the rawness is being compromized and the cars are getting softer for more friendly use. I think it's 100% necessary, because these are economy sedans, not sports cars. Great that they started off raw and untamed, but they MUST evolutionize into some luxury and refinement aspects. I could barely hear myself think in my 04 STI it was so loud. If it were my pure weekend FAIR WEATHER ONLY summer car, then who cares. When it's a daily driver for lets say a family with kids, it's gotta get softened up.

The attempt to turn them into raw sports cars just didn't cut it with me. I'm glad they are turning more into utility cars with high performance, better looks, and some luxury, and that a family can buy as a year round machine for both fun and utility. :)

The STI and Evo were the last of the Homologation specials and their rawness was a big part of what made them special and so coveted by enthusiasts. People who want a "family funster" have plenty of other cars to chose from and I see no reason to dumb down two of the most exhilerating and and fun to drive cars on the road. That said, both cars will probably sell better than they have in the past, but these cars were never intended to have big sales numbers, they were purpose built niche cars.

I disagree that the Evo is being turned into a "family funster". It may not be as raw as it used to be, but it's by no means a MS6 or Dodge Magnum or something like that. I for one, like where these cars are going because there aren't any cars out right now that really interest me. I don't want a car that's just fun on the track (MX-5 or S2000). I'd rather not have a car that's got no practicality (350Z). I definitely don't want a giant boat of a car (GTO, Magnum, Charger, MS6). I want a car that goes fast in a straight line and around corners, gets me solid gas mileage, isn't FWD, has a backseat and trunk, and is relatively easy to drive. The RX-8 was very close for me, but not quite. The new Evo is by far the closest thing to what I'm going for (theoretically).

I know for the earlier Evo fans the new direction might be a big let down. But I don't think there are any cars out there that even come close to what I'm looking for and I'm glad to see Mitsubishi take a stab at it.

I'm having a hard time not getting caught up in all the hate that is swirling around over these two cars... By all acounts the Evo X handles wonderfully despite the weight gains. So if I can get a little softer ride and some extra amenities in a car that handles better but is slower I'll still consider it. That's only iff it takes well to mods so I'll most likely wait and see what the aftermarket can do before I take the plunge. Subaru actually did a pretty good job keeping weight down on the new STI, plus rumors are that it handles a little better and is at least as fast as the outgoing model. SDo there is still hope for me loving either or both cars, but I still can't help but be a little sad that the era of raw fun rally specials has come to an end.

If you haven't owned or spent much time behind the wheel of an VIII or IX then I have every expectation that the new Evo X will surpass 100% of your performance needs. It's all about frame of reference. Those of us with a CT9A Evo are just pissy. The VIII was such a fun car and then the IX came out and it was better in every way that originally drew enthusiasts to the VIII. It's such a great feeling when expectations are exceeded. Because of that the X is a departure from the pattern, albeit brief, that we saw over the last 4 years.

Found a video of the new STI up close and in person...

http://www.subie.tv/index.php/video/...evving_sounds/

I personally don't understand the hateration going on about these cars. Oooooh, they are .23598324 seconds slower on some track on different days that none of us will ever drive on. Who gives a flip. Is it fun to drive? Does it handle well? Does it stop well? These are the things that matter at the end of the day. I'm so sick and tired of the magazine/internet racing going on. Furthermore,most people that buy these cars seem to screw them up by 'modding' them anyway, so why are they so concerned that it's softer/slower/whatever from the factory?

I don't remember ever there was such a rivalry amongst japanese automotive brand. It's fun to read and funner to own. But the funnest doing Scandinavian flicks at an empty parking lot after a snow storm. Ahh... I remember my younger days.

It's a huge step forward as a daily driver, and hopefully it's not as prone to understeer. But at $50,000 Canadian for a Subie...I'll pass!

Blah, forgive me for not reading through the entire thread, but between the pudgy new Evo and the "sunday driver" STi, I'm pretty disappointed with this round of the Evo/STi battle.

The STi won't appeal to many people here in the US, mostly because it's a hatch. I'm actually a fan of hatches (I've owned 2), but I still think the design of the STi just has a terrible case of the blahs. I think if any interest is generated in the new STi, it will only come if it shows a marked performance advantage over the Evo X.

The Evo is the car I had my money on this round, and even that has let me down. It's great if it's faster around the track even with its handicap, but I think they're taking a big step backwards with such a large weight gain. However, I think it's going to appeal to many more people than the STi. Your average "Joe Carbuyer" isn't going to care about some added weight. He'll see that there's no annoying clutch pedal, it's got more ammenities, and it's got a sportier look than the frumpy STi.

If I were currently in the market, I'd wait until they redesign the STi and put the Evo on a diet.



Edit: Just watched that video, and seeing the STi in darkness made me realize that it has some serious potential to be a good looking car, they just completely failed with the front and rear end designs. If they added a more aggressive and less "happy" front end, and ditched the RX330 tails (hell, they'd probably look fine if they were just RED), they'd probably have quite a nice looking car.

Here's a comparison Motortrend did of the USDM Evo X and the USDM Evo IX...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cp13KGEsok

ive always though of this segment as the raw, exciting no compromise fun cars..
and ive favored the Evo over the STI over the past 2 iterations because of its quicker response and stiffer suspension

im not sure I like the new Evo X because its getting closer to the sport coupes, Id probably rather just get a 335i instead. If the new STI retains more crisp handling and response, Id probably favor the STI this time around. but id like to drive both first before i make any judgement.

At least for me it has little to do with magazine numbers. Though I gotta say, if the new Evo does end up being a 14 second car that barely traps 100mph I will be bored when getting on the gas. Tack on almost a full second in the 1/4 mile to the new RX-8 and I doubt you'd be happy either. For me it mainly comes down to steering feel and driver feedback. I bought the Evo over the STI in the first place because of the magnificent steering, most are reporting that the steering has been dumbed down on the X. If I wanted a refined pseudo luxury car with great handliing and good performance I would have bought something else. I wanted a raw performance car with some practicality and didn't care about things like a pretty interior or cushy ride, that's why I am many others love the CT9A Evos. It's also why current Evo owners as a whole are worried about what has become of the Evo.

^ every current gen. car owners lament about the upcoming replacement model being not as good. Heard that about the infamous air-cooled 911 owners on the then new 996 model. Even the NA Miata folks were whining about the NB and later NC. It's evolution of a product (how appropriate). The EVO cannot keep staying as a 80s plastic contraption forever. It has to move on with times since even the latest Hyundai Accent feels more held together than the current EVO.
If ultimate driving pleasure is required, an AWD car based on a sedan platform is not the way to go anways. Get a proper front-engine RWD sportscar like the Z3 M Coupe or a 993 S...

I agree with Ike on this one. There are other options in the automotive world to chose from if you want a luxury sports car. A company should stick to their formula that made them sell cars so well. It is not the best idea to alienate their loyal costumers in order to gain sales.

Yea, it can't but it does not mean it has to be numbed down to a glove wearing pansy. Refinement is one issue but destroying the nature that made the EVO so special is another.

Isn't the EVO suppose to be a everyday reiteration of a rally car? The point of the EVO is not to be the "ultimate driving pleasure" but to the formula EVO has always been, a turbocharged sedan that is hell of a lot of fun.

Except with the current Evo I get a car that's every bit as fast or faster than the cars you mention around a track. Plus it's more moddable, has nearly as good if not better driver feedback, has the practicaility of a sedan, and can be driven through a harsh midwest winter with ease. I've driven an M Coupe and a few different 911's and for a trackday and overall driving pleasure I'd still pick the Evo.

The Subaru P1 was faster than the Carrera S on a country road too. And able to negotiate harsh winters. Like an EVO they are great point and squirt cars but I prefer my sports cars classically front-engine RWD format that works with me without the glut of electronic doodads to compensate for a compromised platform to begin with. Put more seat time in a Z3 M Coupe or the 911 you claimed to have driven and you just may understand the beauty of a properly sorted sports car.

I grew up racing karts and shifter karts as well as doing track days in an E30 M3 and later an E36 M3 with the BMW and Porsche Clubs. I believe I know what a properly sorted RWD car feels like. Your "clasically front engined" "sports car" is the one with the glut of electronics and useless things when it comes to performance cars.

evo all the way the new sti is ugly as hell

Here's a test from Sports Car International, one of the few good car mags left. They concur with what others have said: Faster, but less furious.

http://www.sci-mag.com/art1/art1p1.html


Happens to a lot of cars, though. The design gets "refined" (as some call it) and loses it's personality with each redesign. These cars have never been my cup of tea, but they certainly have added a lot to the enthusiast market.

How, on any level, is the Evo X a luxury car? I think people are really, really gettig ahead of themselves. No one has driven the new US-spec Evo and yet everyone and their mother has a steadfast opinion about how terrible it's going to be.

Does anyone else in this thread besides Ike even own an Evo? If not, then why all the lament about the new direction they're taking? Maybe Mitsubishi actually wants to sell cars rather than just impress random forum goers. They may alienate some people, but they will gain many fans. Pretty much the EXACT same thing that happened with the RX-7 and the RX-8.

Oh well, maybe all this magazine racing nonsense will help drive the demand for the Evo X down so I can get mine for a reasonable price. Then I can take my new fancy luxury car and see if I can control the immense body roll and overcome the numb steering to beat the living snot out of my friend's RX-8 on a local track. I'll be crossing my fingers!