ChrisW

I don't think there is anything "normal" about European petrol prices - in the UK over 90% of it is tax. The US don't subsidise gas prices, they just don't tax them to such a huge degree.

I understand the environmental arguments but we're not even consistent. In the UK domestic energy is taxed at a measly 5% even though this produces more CO2 than cars. Where's the incentive for people to save energy by insulating their homes?

The fact is the UK government is hooked on the money it gets from fuel tax. If we all switched to more economical cars it would cost them billions.

cw007

nice for once to hear the feelings from our former colony.



Glad to hear that US of A are concerned about the O zone and pollution. I couldnt really and still cant understand why Europe is trying to go green when in reality it is not going to have any real impact on the worlds pollution, when our former colony "buy" other countries pollution quotients to try and hide there own.

in an ideal situation -
Would like to see a window/envelope surrounding europe which protects us from pollution from others but hey i can hope!

Hell i recycle everything. (wife makes me) Bottles, can's, plastics and paper. Once a month its the jolly trip to the recyling bins....

ProtoConVert

Sorry i dint' know how to piecewise cut these


I bet a Harley engine is 1-1.5 l or smaller


Actually I don't know this. I've been looking for figures like these, and I was wondering if you could direct me with a link or a citation?

I was thinking about the way you put "can get their hands on powerful cars" and I'm sorry but that seems like an inaccurate point of view... Sure, teens are teens in either the US and Europe but there are actually reasons for US parents getting their kids cars or for kids to get cars themselves...

all of which seem to stem from urban density. I'm not sure about this, but I'd bet point A to point B numbers of trips and trip lengths are higher in the US (so that could be difference #1 there I dunno how to explain it tho) and so there's probably much less of a net cost (might even be a net benefit) for parents to buy kids cars due to time saved for parents in US versus those in Europe (especially when you factor in said gas prices). Public transportation is available, but in nowhere near as complete a form as those in Europe, where quality is like orders of magnitude higher. Take Amtrak for an example. Actually that's a bad example because I have no idea why their operating costs are so high. This is where jobs for teens come into play... its vastly easier with a car here.

Anyway, I think my argument is getting less coherent, and probably isnt representative for anything more than the upper half of the tax brackets, so basically what I wanted to say is that its not like its a 24/7 joyride for kids with cars here. I guess you can say those might be reasons to get a car, but not reasons to get nice cars for kids... I've less to say about that. It could be a culture thing, could be a love thing... no idea basically.

The Ace

OK, I'll try to respond to everyone in a single post

1) American citizens are probably the most indebted individuals (as consumers of course) on this planet. That is a fact, and was mentioned very frequently last year by the president of the BoA during the whole Dollar-Euro crisis (and of course in view of the -then imminent- war with Iraq). This has nothing to do with the rest of this thread, its just a well-known fact, and its just a sign of how the economy of the USA works.

2) I agree that the high gas prices in Europe have a lot to do with taxes, but it is the same all over Europe. We (Greece) have expensive gas, Italy has expensive gas, Belgium, Germany, Spain, UK, all of "us" in the EU. Gas prices in the USA are on AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT (lower) level however, and that was my point. That they can buy their fuel cheaper, so that they can afford to actually move around in their V8s

3) I meant "a car engine that has a displacement of 1.0lt" :D And I know you cannt find EVEN ONE. Thats just the way USA works.....

4) About figures, I really dont know where I picked that up. Probably over at http://www.stopesso.com/. Go take a look, its very useful (and frightening) information....

5) Indeed the distances in the USA are enormous when compared to Europe. I mean, when I was in Kansas, it was almost a house per city block And your country does cover a lot of ground. But still, that is no excuse to give powerful cars to teenagers of 16, 17 or 18 years of age. Even a simple 1.6lt or 2.0lt (in your case) is way more than enough to cover the needs of even an adult (who wants to commute to his/her work as well). This is just another example of how the US mentality works......

Anyway, I think that I covered all issues......

medcina

You know a lot of people here who are preaching that Americans are wasteful because they drive V8's that eat a lot of gas are being quite hypocrytical. True V8's are not exactly the best as far as MPG but most V8's still get the same or better gas mileage than the little dinky 1.3L rotary. In fact, had the rotary not been a unique and cool little motor, I would laugh at it for being so underpowered yet be so thirsty. Lets face it the average RENESIS is getting around 17 MPG which is no better than most Corvette owners get and I can assure you the Corvette will kill the RX-8 in most categories and will give the RX-8 a run for its money in handling as well (pulled 1 G on the skid pad). Now after saying all of this, I don't particularly like the Corvette and would never be caught dead in one but a lot of people here are saying a lot of crap about V8's, SUV's, and other vehicles with poor gas mileage and then turn around and buy another vehicle that is no better in that department. Sounds a bit 2-faced to me...

8_wannabe

Oh, but we do subsidize, in a huge way. What is the cost of keeping three carrier battlegroups, several air wings, and 250,000 troops in the Gulf to keep that oil flowing freely? Without Gulf oil, we'd be fully dependent on Venezuela, mexico and domestic production, and we'd see our gas prices above $4.00 a gallon (twice the current rate which is already at historic highs in America for some reason.) We're spending tens of billions to influence a part of the world that we otherwise would have utterly no interest in.

eskimo

After looking at the link The Ace gave, check out
http://www.scorecard.org/env-releases/cap/
to see the breakdown *within* the US. Those big cars are responsible for a *large* part of the pollution.

On the bright side, I hope we can soon move to hydrogen, and still drive an <a href="http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8784">RX8</a>.

Trains are expensive to run. Europeans subsidize their trains, perhaps with money from the fuel taxes they get. In the US Congress recently cut funding to Amtrak when they declared bankruptcy. I wonder how much the US car and airline companies had to do with that.

8_wannabe

Medcina, you are right about this. I felt bad enough getting the RX-8 expecting to get 21 mpg mixed hiway/city driving. I did feel guilty and a bit hypocritical since I am on this SUV soapbox. But the car was so damn fun and cool, I figured what the heck. Imagine my surprise when, for the first 1000 miles, I was only getting 15 mpg (for you Europeans, that's about what a large SUV will get.) I was shocked and dismayed. If you browse through my posts about gas mileage and the buy-back, you will see me saying many times if I return the car, it'll be because of the crappy gas mileage, not because of the missing horsepower. I really do feel guilty about this. My last two tanks were 17.5 mpg, the current one looks like it'll top 18 (equal to a small-to-medium SUV) so maybe things are starting to work out. If I can't get around 20 it will be morally hard for me to keep the car.

eskimo

I too feel bad about the RX8, especially since my current mpg doesn't match the advertised ratings. But I was driving a Protege for the last 10 years, a 1.8L 4 cyl with double the mpg I get now. I was ready for a change.

m477

To answer the original post:

Regardless of what they claim, 99% of the teens with $30k cars simply have parents with more money than they know what to do with. Many of the people in their 20s and 30s are just in debt.

The Ace

Just a comment for all those of you saying "rotaries have bad mileage compared to V8s".......

YOU CANNT COMPARE A PISTON ENGINE TO A ROTARY!!!!!

I've said it before, hundreds or thousands other people have said it too, and I'm saying it again: wankel engines have different principles of operation, simply because the combustion chamber revolves around the housing

Therefore, you cannot compare its consumption with that of a piston engine, simply because its *very difficult* to pinpoint which is the "corresponing" piston engine displacement.....

One could say that we can compare the mileage of the Renesis engine to that of an equally powerful engine (circa 230HP), but this is not valid as well: there is a 1.4lt turbocharged engine that outputs 230HP (and has a mileage of less than 15mpg), and there is a 3.0lt supercharged diesel engine, that has a mileage of above 30mpg......you simly cannt do that comparison.....

Since we all agree that americans are used to much much bigger engines than the europeans, and WE KNOW these have much higher consumptions than "our" engines, cannt we just leave it at that ?

medcina

All well and good but it still means that the rotary's power to fuel consumption ratio is way below that of a comparable V6 or V8. Now I'm not bashing the rotary and will choose it over a piston engine if given a choice any day but I'm just making a point. I know the average European goes for smaller, but more efficient engines but for you or anyone else that likes or owns a rotary-powered engine to sit there and make fun of "wasteful Americans" because of their V8's is being hypocrytical. How about we just leave it at that?

KEF

It's only two faced if you are actually defending the fuel economy of the '8.

Personally I find the idea of a 20mpg car highly off-putting, my only defence is that mine will be mostly used for longer more fuel efficient journies (i walk to work, and to most other places of interest)

you only have to look at how poorly publisised the 8's economy figures have been in the uk, mazda have been paranoid about this because they know how important an issue this is to european buyers. But to be frank, again that comes down to the cost of fuel rather than any genuine environmental concerns (excluding cw007, an example to us all)

therefore - horrific fuel cost + indefensible insurance premiums = young drivers in this country simply do not get their hands on cars of this nature.

ps, how about the lip spoiler fitted to all euro models to improve fuel economy. (or so mazda stated themselves)

oilman

Oh come on Guys, get back ON THREAD.

Cheers
Oilman

pelucidor

As a Brit living in the USA (in Houston no less) I will say that my first two years here were bizarre - much more of a foreign country than Singapore or HK where I have also lived, as I had 'expectations' based on years of watching movies and American TV programs whilst in London. Eventually I got used to things here.

I will say that:
1) Nobody here ASPIRES to driving a land yacht - that is very 1970's. Everybody wants a 'normal' sized Honda/Toyota/Mercedes/BMW/Lexus/Porsche. However when you are looking to spend $2000 or less an a vehicle, most of them are old land yachts (with huge engines and tiny interiors I might add).

2) Cars are not a luxury in the USA - everywhere except the 2-3 biggest cities they are a neccessity. There is NO public transport except in large cities, and even in those cities it is a joke (excepting Manhattan). Taking Amtrak between cities (very limited stops) is more expensive than flying. Most families will have 1 car per driver because they need it - even if all they can afford are 1970's land yachts. In London, Singapore and Hong Kong I never NEEDED a car except when moving etc - it a was a fun luxury item.

3) People drive VAST distances here (Texas is almost 1/4 the size of western Europe, and they really do have farms bigger than Wales here). I do over 20k miles per year just going to work and back and weekend shopping, and my wife does another 12k as a housewife. Most people believe that big engine with low stress and low power will last a long time (see 1970's land yachts still running on original engines). I spend a lot of time in Limos (always Lincoln Town Cars or Cadillac Devilles) and the drivers always make the same comment about how at 300,000 miles they are almost broken in and will easily do 800,000 miles on the same engine before an overhaul. Perhaps it's true - I don't care as I am fortunate enough to buy a new car every two years and so will never put over 60k miles on my car.

4) Kids get cars as soon as they pass their driving test (usually 16) because it is a necessity. Nobody wants to cycle 10 miles to see their friends or to go to the corner shop and again there is no public transport, and their parents don't want to drive them around everywhere. I say cycle because until I was age 23 my only mode of transport in London was my 10-speed bike or a travelcard for the bus/underground. I got my first car after university when I started work and had the money for it (we were not well off).

5) Very, very few kids get brand new cars at 16 or 17. Those that do make an disproportional amount of noise about them. The ones that tend to stay quiet about their great fortune are the ones who actually value what they are being given, and might not crash it in the first year.

6) Finally new cars are cheaper here than anywhere else in the world, and good (i.e. European or Japanese) used cars are quite expensive (actaully more expensive than in the UK for example - I had a policeman friend from Newham who did considerable research into this whilst visiting me). Petrol here is incredibly cheap in the USA because of almost no tax on it, and that is because the government realizes it is a necessity (like water or electricity) and not a luxury. But in London my family would drive about 10k miles a year (and in Singapore about 3000 miles) - here we do over 30k-40k miles every year so the total price of petrol for me is about the same as if I lived in England.

zoom44

hmm where to begin. mostly i was going to respond to Ace but his last post seems to have covered most of my points. i would say though that you are correct you will not find an american car built in america and driven by an american that has a 1 liter engine. we (i know not all but mostly) wouldn't have a use for such a thing, it just literally wouldn't sell enough to cover the marketing. i'm not even sure i could ever understand why someone elsewhere would want one, they may have their reasons but it just wouldn't make sense to this american. pelucidor (as usual) has hit the nail square on the head. but i must say that, pelucidor, you should come up to Portland Oregon sometime. it is not nearly in the "biggest cities" category, and thoughthere are many things i don't like about it, i must say that the public transportation system here is really amazing, and getting better every year with some new expansions to the light rail system. i would think that one of the reasons our gas prices are so low is the amount we produce for our own use plus the fact that we are so much larger than most european countries and our buying power is that much greater. emissions and such,well lets not forget the amount of coal burnt in the UK for so many years.

oh and to get back on topic: young kids with expensve or high powered cars is a bad thing. it teaches them no work ethic or responsibilty and almost insures the injury or death of other motorists and/or pedestrians. when they can afford to pay the insurance and buy the gas, then maybe. but not until they have had alot of seat time in mum and dad's car for the experience.

edit: oh and as far as subsidizing our oil prices with our carrier groups, without them think about how much higher europes gas prices would be without the free flowing oil. btw i think the hydrogen rotary is a wonderful thing!

Wing

Interesting thread.

I just want to point out a few things about Canada....


Interestingly we have a larger country to the US, but we drive smaller cars. This is mainly because we are taxed to the nine's so we can't afford the cars. The best selling car in the US is Camry/Accord, in Canada it is civic/corolla.

Where was I going.... oh yeah. Ok our gas prices are DOUBLE that of the US, and Europe is DOUBLE that of ours.... now isn't that interesting??

Things, I've actually heard from people around here:

HAHA a civic? That won't even pully my weight around.

Ummm come on that's retarded!

The Ace

OK, like I said, I can see why even youngsters might need an easier and faster mode of transportation (namely a car), simply because the distances to be covered are much bigger than those in Europe. Like I said, when I was in Kansas, going to the mall or the 7-11 was almost like a daily trip, simply because it was about 10-15 kilometers away.

However, I cannt understand why a 1.6lt engined car cannot make these trips efficiently, and young people *should* be getting bigger engined cars. Its not like a 1.6lt car cannot comfortably achieve speeds of 150-160kph, or that it will break down easily. On the contrary, american cars are VERY low on the "durability" and "MTBF" (Mean Time Between Failures) lists, while Japanese and German cars are in very high spots. So, it would make much more sense to me to buy a 1.6lt Golf or Civic for my son/daughter, than to buy a used 3.8lt Camaro or a used 5.0lt Corvette.

medcina, I never "made fun" of wasteful Americans (although most of you are :D). I simply stated the obvious. I dont currently own a RX7, nor have I ordered a RX8, but my TII was indeed very, very, VERY fuel-inefficient, so I'm in no position to make fun of anyone else

AndyPearce

I can't understand how you could think this. There are many cars available in the rest of the world that have a 1l or less engine in it and it does all the things you need in a car (maybe not want but NEED.) The arguement on this thread for why many Americans NEED a car is because of the distances travelled in every day usage and the lack of viable public transport system in many areas.

All of these small engined cars can go much quicker than the national speed limit in the UK (and therefore the US) and most can reach around 100mph. OK the accelaration may not be up to much but they do the job required of them. Many of them can seat 4 adults so size of car shouldn't be an issue.

Besides the reduced emissions (we actually pay less road tax in the UK for smaller engined cars and cars with lower emmissions) the smaller cars mean more room for parking etc which is a factor in some places.

Don't take this personally but I think it shows are blinkered attitude if you cannot comprehend why these sort of cars exist. Having said that I wouldn't drive one myself but I'm a bit of a speed freak!:D

8_wannabe

Hey, you're missing the point. We're Americans. We want it big, we want it fast, we want it cheap and we want it NOW! Furthermore, through some twisted notion of entitlements, we believe we DESERVE it big, fast, cheap and now. Isn't that what being American is all about?

The Ace

Hey, that kinda reminds me of the SUN2000 commercial in Robocop :D

eccles

I'd buy that for a dollar!

pelucidor

Look at the number of miles of road and the number of population centers, not the physical size of the country. Greenland is a much bigger island than Britain but I doubt they have bigger cars and engines on average.

pelucidor

The argument should be in two parts:
1. A person NEEDS a car because it's a 50 mile round trip to go to work every day (very common here). Any car they can afford will do.
2. Given 1 above, the person BUYS a car they like, not necessarily the smallest or most fuel efficient 2nd hand car they can afford.

As an example- in Europe given £5000 to spend on a car, would you rather buy a newish 1.0 liter Nissan Micra or an older 1.8 liter Golf GTi. When I was in this position (my first car) I went with a Peugeot 309 GTi. Fun factor (and even peer pressure) plays a part in most car purchases - if it didn't I should have bought a new Toyota Corolla 1.6 instead of the RX-8 as it does everything I NEED for 1/3 the price.

In the USA there are many factors at work: most people can only drive automatics and few small engined cars have autos, small economy cars have fewer gadgets (power windows, power seats, power locks etc) compared to older big American iron, old American pushrod technology is easier/cheaper to fix and get parts for by a mechanic friend than new-fangled foreign vehicles, there is a perception that a similarly priced bigger/heavier is safer than a smaller/lighter one, etc.


Obviously I am playing Devil's advocate here - as someone who is intensely interested in the auto industry there is no way I would EVER buy an American big-3 vehicle except perhaps a Corvette (I would sooner buy a same priced Hyundai than a Pontiac/Chevy etc - I really hate GM). Cars I have owned in order - (spot the American vehicles):
UK (London): Peugeot 309 GTi, Opel Manta GT/E, Saab 900i, Audi A4, BMW 320i
Singapore: Honda Prelude (my love affair with Japanese vehicles begins...)
USA (New Jersey): Acura (Honda) Integra, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Lexus RX300, Lexus IS300
USA (Texas): Toyota 4 Runner, Acura MDX and Mazda RX-8

zoom44

that's actually my point:D you would have to have grown up here to understand and i would have to grow up there to understand your side. it's just 2 completely different ways of thinking about autos and other things.

i don't take it personally this is a perfectly genuine honest debate and much of the reason i spend time in this part of the forum is because things don't have as much of a tendency to devolve into flame wars as in the rest of the forum. actually i can understand why some areas would have smaller cars just because of space limitations. however there is no need to make the effort here in the states because everything is built to handle larger ones and we still have some space to grow:o also there are many americans who just simply are too large to fit in many smaller cars:D