bean438

Although my ol' reliable 95 protege is still running, I am afraid I have fallen prey to modern advertiseing and marketing.


I am entertaining the idea of a new or newer used car.
Now I realize cars are personal and everyone has a different view but I would rather hear it from you guys rather than the slick as snake sales guys.
I can give you a bit of background on my story that may help.

I live in Winnipeg, Manitoba. Last week we were hammered with almost 30 inches of snow overnight.
I am employed in the emergency services field. I have to show up for work. No working from home or calling in sick. Worst case I snow shoe it to work to the closest firehall, and am then transpoted via 4x4 to where I am needed.

The 8 has pilot alpines on it but it doesnt get out much in the winter. Usually only very cold days, no snow or slush, and nicely plowed roads.
Its not that it sucks as a winter car, it is fantastic, but I am more worried about the other drivers, plus even though I didnt try, I dont think the 8 would of made through all the snow.

I made it in to work (protege), after blowing my driveway, and getting stuck several times until I made it to the main drags which had been half asses plowed. Good thing the scoop shovel was in the car. The rest of the ride was white nuckled and slow.
My tires are 4 year old canadian tire all season.

I got stuck while backing out of the driveway. I suspect that had I backed in the night before and driven straight out I may not have been stuck.

(a quick hello to all my neighbors in 4x4's who drove by me and didnt stop to help. Dont count on me blowing your driveways anymore on my days off while you are at work. Oh well what comes around goes around. ***needed to get that out lol***)

Anyway depending who you talk to my best bet ranges from "keep your current car but just get a set of Hakkapelitta's or equivelent snow tire, studded or not and you are good to go. Get a set of chains just in case", all the way to "you need a Jeep TJ Rubicon 4x4 with locking front and rear axles".

Both extreme's are valid although the 4x4 with locking differentials may be a tad overkill. I just need to get to work, I dont have t climb rocks, mountains, and drive through sand and 3 foot deep streams.

I am not very fond of 4x4 SUV type vehicles. I can say from personal professional experience that a very high percentage of motor vehicle accidents / car in ditch calls I respond to in the winter involve a 4x4/SUV type vehicle.
In fact I can only remember one incident of a passenger car in a ditch. It was pushed into the ditch by an SUV that couldn't stop.
Now I am not blaming the vehicle. Human error plain and simple.
"OMG I don't know how this happened, I drive a 4x4 with abs and traction control, and I can drive like I can in summer while talking on my cell phone."
Winter tires should almost be mandatory for a 4wd vehicle. Yes you have start up traction, but physics still apply to turning and stopping.

Anyway I have a bit of citeria:

--I am partial to Japanese product.

--I put alot of weight into the Lemon aid car guides and tend to buy recommended or above average cars

--I dont care about styling, no kids so I dont care about 4 door/ 2 door cargo space etc.

--money is not too much a concern (too a point lets say up to about 35,000)
but even though I could spend more it would eat at me thinking about what else I could have bought with the extra 10 grand I didnt have to spend.

If I go the car route I am thiking either the new Yaris from Toyota or Accent from Hyundai , with some winter rubber. And chains for good measure. I like the Yaris better than the Hyundai but you cant beat the price although I have more confidence in keeping the Yaris for 10 years.

If I go the 4x4 SUV route I think 4x4 with locking differential, mammoth ground clearence is overkill, so i would most likely go with a new Suzuki Grand Virara, or possibly a 2-3 year old Chevy Tracker, also with winter rubber.

Another option may be a Subaru Impezza entry model. Full time AWD , which is actually only 2 wheel drive with open differentials.
But 2 is better than one drive wheel, and it sits slightly higher than a car. I happen to also really like the look of it, and with some winter tires I would feel confident in it.

Fuel economy is awsome in the Yaris, so so on the Suzuki and Subaru's but does not factor in with me.

I have learned more than I care to know about 4wd/awd/part time awd/4wd/4x4/awd realtime blah blah blah lol.

Although the Subaru AWD/ SUV 4x4 may not be needed, I have been a car driver all my life, so the added traction, needed or not would at the least be something different.

Or I could get a set of Michellin x ice tires and a set of chains and save my self 15-25 grand lol.

Sorry for the long post.

Let the opinions roll in.

BlueFrenzy

Looks like you've already done all your research. If I were to get a second car, it'll either be a Subaru for it's AWD system or an entry level Jeep (as you mentioned) for it's good clearance and relative low cost.

bean438

I drove through the local Subaru dealership today, and I really like the Impreza. I would give it the edge over the Jeep simply because of my preference to Japanese cars, plus the Impreza will handle just like a car and not a truck.
For serious off roading clearence would be more an issue, but for lots of snow I would think traction is the issue.
Even though the Subaru is not a "real" 4x4, it is still a step up from a plain ol' FWD.
I do agree with Phil Edmonston of Lemon aid when he says Subaru is pricing themselves out of the market, and that there are better (cheaper more featured) AWD choices out there.
But, one of my friends has an Impreza with Nokian Hakappalitta studded winter tires.
He says he has never even come close to being stuck in Winnipeg. And that's without lots of clearence, and no LSD, or Differential lock.
For those who have never been to Winnipeg, our unplowed back lanes are considered to be some of the toughest driving terain on the planet.
Even the guys in Hummers think twice!! Lol. Well, um, not really but they are pretty bad.

titaniumZoomZoom

I needed a second car just in case the weather became too much for my RX8 with winter tires and opted for the Subaru Impreza RS. Never regreted my decision!

scoop

Hmmm, I think you answered the question. For what it is worth I have an Legacy Outback Limited, it has a limited slip rear differential and decent ground clearance without being overly top heavy like SUVs. Most of the higher end Subarus have the LSD option, the regular Impreza won't. I use 4 Hakka RSi winters on steels and it is unstoppable, we can't run studs here so the RSi is an ice/snow tire. I had the Hakka Q's before them, that was the previous model of the same tire and they lasted a good 4-5 winters which is very long for snows. Definitely go for decent tires, AWD will get you going through almost anything but you need to be able to stop also. Also the clear coated polished mags that Subaru tends to use degrade VERY quickly with winter driving, I use $40 Costco steels. I do a lot of downhill skiing in winter and I have piloted that thing up some pretty scary mountain roads during snow storms without a hitch (the worst ones were in Vermont). The gas mileage is not bad with the 2.5L normally aspirated engine. I have taken some very long road trips with the rocket box on the top and loaded up with four people and camping gear such that I am bouncing off the bump stops and I still average 10L/100Km. By comparison my 8 averages close to 15L/100Km with just me and lead weight on my foot. I don't know of any Jeep product ever made that had any sort of decent gas mileage. Personally I think regular SUVs are a total menace, too top heavy, too heavy period, poor tires are required to support all that weight (very few sipes), poor brakes, poor fuel economy and 4WD at speed is useless relative to AWD, not that I have an opinion. Granted I can't climb over large rocks and stumps with the Subaru but I don't desire to and most SUV owners have probably never been off a paved road anyway. The other thing you will notice about AWD is the shear stability when you change lanes and stuff where there are ridges of snow between them or just driving through crud on the road. You are right about the pricing, I bought mine at the two year old mark, it was a lease return in good shape, it still had warranty and I saved in the order of $10K. The things are reliable and relatively low maintenance, four of my coworkers have them, very popular around here. Why not buy used with some warranty remaining? The powertrain warranty goes for 100K and I had a few things fixed under it? BTW my experience with Subaru service has been excellent, far better that Mazda, it might just be the dealer but I still take my car there even outside of warranty. You could get an LSD in a Forester or Outback with some additional ground clearance. There are also way more Foresters and Outbacks in the used market than Imprezas for whatever reason so their price points are better. If you hang up the belly of a base model car you could get one front wheel and one back wheel spinning and get stuck, odds are slim but it's possible. I wanted the LSD on my car mostly for launching my boat on unpaved ramps, I have buried wheels before doing that. The Subaru can also be fun like the 8, just find some vacated streets in a snow storm and try some drifts with all four wheels spinning :-) I have no regrets, it surves its purpose well as a very utilitarian family car . . .

bean438

I agree with the LSD, but I dont have LSD with my FWD. I figure I can do with the Impreza AWD open dif, LSD would be that much better.
However to get LSD in an impreza requires the 2nd from the top model at only 35, 000...way too much money for a 4 door sedan IMO. For a few grand less you can get the Forrester with LSD.
I will certainly look at something 2-4 years old, or perhaps even leasebusters.com.
If I can find a lease that has a good down payment to take over that is. ometimes leasebusters makes no sense because you can usually lease the same car, only newer for the same payment they want.
I may just out right lease a Subaru. Edmonston has me worried about bad service that can only be performed by Subaru due to more exclusive power train parts.
Then again a thourough search of many forums didnt turn up too many complaints other than the competition offering more and "I am beginning to ask myself why I paid so much for this car?"
In terms of durability I get the impression most Subaru owners are very happy.
I think the reason there are more outbacks/forresters than Imprezas is maybe people who are fond of AWD tend to be more active truck/SUV lifestyle people? I dont know. I can see AWD eventually become standard on every vehicle sold. Our grand children will laugh when we tell them we drove in FWD cars.
As for SUV's they seem to attract 2 main buyers, at least in Winnipeg. One mr. and mrs we bought ours as a status symbol, we know nothing about it except we look good in it and people know we dropped some coin. We also had no idea you could crash.
The second buyer is a typical jack *** usually male who feels the need to show off what his SUV can do. This is the same jack *** who tail gates in a blizzard because he has the traction. Its the same jackass who rear ends you because he cant stop, and oh its your fault because you have winter tires. Mr jackass didnt need them cause he has all the bells and whistles, 4x4, lsd, abs, ecd, traction this, traction that.
It amazes me that people will drop serious coin on a huge SUV and not bother to spend a little more on a set of winter tires.
Has anybody actually done a lease take over via leasebusters.com?

YT1300

Go AWD for traction; LSD is handy if you go off and get a wheel lifter, otherwise, meh, it's there, and it'll help you, but not as much as good common sense and a good set of tires. If you HAVE to get to work each and everyday, regardless of weather, that is. The 90% plus of the rest of the vehicles out there only drive 2 of the four wheels.

One thought: why assume a newer used car? Sure, you don't get the depreciation hit of a new car, and you may very well get the remainder of a warranty on a used car, but it's still a used car, and you still are picking up someone else's 'problem'. IMO, it's either new (if you have the capital and plan to keep her 'til it dies) or really used (>4 years) for a decent price. Somewhere in between doesn't really make a lot of sense financially (it still depreciates) or reliability-wise (it'll still be decent in two years).

bean438

If I go used I prefer 2-3 years old. Thats when most of the depreciation occurs plus you still get some warranty.
If you buy the right vehicle with a good reliability history and get it checked by a mechanic you increase your odds of no lemon.

YT1300

Hmm. Fair enough. Planning to buy or lease? Taking over a lease is easier on you (less cash outlay, less monthly cost) but in the run only benefits the dealer (still making the lease rate off of you, and they get the car in the end). It kind of defeats the point in going the used car route. Keep in mind that unless you're talking extended warranty coverage (don't get me started down that line of thinking...) then the basic comprehensve warranty for most major, reliable manufactuers is almost up at 3 years.

One thing about AWD - drivetrain and tire costs can be a pain. If one tire goes out, then you often have to replace ALL the tires to avoid drivetrain binding. Audi owners know what I'm talking about - stupid S4 bendy/squashy rims!

bean438

i heard about the awd tire thing. I am not sure if that applies to Subaru.
I reaslize major component runs out after 3 years but I would have absolutely no worries with a 2-4 year old Toyota. Anything domestic I would lease and hand the keys in at the end. Import would be a new purchase and drive for 10 years, or buy used and drive for 5.
Those little chevy trackers are made by Suzuki, and are very cheap used. Decent clearence 4x4 (open dif) should be enough to get the job done. Then again a fed with studded tires will do good as well.
I look at awd not for performance and handling, etc but simply for extra traction in a storm.

That being said the Tacoma 4x4 TRD with locking rear dii, and almost 10 inches of clearence, fitted with winter tires would be a confident vehicle to drive. That would be a used purchase for sure. Dont want to spend 37 grand on a truck. Might be a little over kill too.

MyRXdrug

Try a 4wd Toyota Matrix...
1.8L engine, you know it's going to last and have a good resale value i think. I used to Love Toyota because they were the sporty one's in the 80's and early 90's but now they're boring.

Renesis_8

A base Subaru Legacy is good too, if ur budget is 35k cdn, then theres no problem, u'd probably have more than 10k left after the purchase. I own one and the styling (exterior + interior) is much better than WRX imo, I am not too sure about the AWD difference , but its got no LSD for sure. However winter tires is a must on new Subaru cars since they come with garbage all season tires, the bridgestone re92, they just plain suck. base legacy with around 165hp is quite good, i'd guess something around 100 at the wheels tho, this car is super slow off the line, its good for traction i guess~
________
Club Royal Condominium

YT1300

AWD Matrix are laughably slow. They suck down gas, and they don't have the ground clearance that you want/need. Though they are Toyota, Pontiac Vibes are the same car, and for less money; the reliability is more or less the same.

The Imprezas are all ugly, but that's part of the charm, if you ask me; even with the new nose, the car is still cartoonishly designed. The new WRX is simply a ton of fun for the money.

With regards to the tires, conventional wisdom says that for any AWD vehicle, if one tire goes, and it's more than 7-8K km worn, then you have to replace all four to avoid drivetrain binding.

bean438

I too thought the Vibe would be cheaper than the Matrix, but for some reason it is the other way around. Weird.
Lets see I am now leaning towards a compact pickup.
FWD car fine, AWD Subaru, better, BUT even with AWD clearance is still clearance.
Add to that if I am gonna take a fuel economy hit in a Subaru I figure I may as well go with a truck. At least i can haul some stuff.
Trucks in RWD mode are not the best drivers in the winter, but I have done it in the past. Good winter tires, and not driving like a moron are a fine substitute for an AWD car with all the computer traction control gizmos.
The truck seems to have it all, clearance, 4wd, pretty functional, plus I will have lots of new friends who will want to borrow it! Lol.
I was looking at a new B series, or even a used one.
That got me thinking maybe I place too high a value on Japanese cars. The Bseries is lemon aid ok, but it is really a Ford Ranger.
Used Rangers are very cheap, same with used b series. The b series have a rear LSD too.
Trucks also seem to have, to me anyway, a cool factor to them.
20k would set me up nicely and with the left over cash hmmm, plasma tv?

blue freeze

I know some people would kick me for this...but have you thought about the new Hummer H3? It has the clearance, the type of drive system for the weather, and if some a$$ drives into you, the result may not be as ugly as it would be in a lower vehicle (ie: murano).

Personally, I think it's butt ugly, but for a Winnipeg winter..maybe it looks a little better. Also, the pricing (only know from what I've seen in the Free Press) doesn't seem too bad.

bean438

I briefly thought about the new H3. The fuel economy is par with some full size pick ups, but if I go the SUV route I would look at a smaller, cheaper used Tracker, or Suzuki.
Its either a car or truck. To me SUV's are just bigger 4x4 cars.
The 4wd is what I want, and I would rather have the cargo ability of a truck vs the SUV.
Both would get me through the snow but at least if I needed to pick up some top soil, or lumber from Home depot I would have that option.
Some slightly used Bseries, and Rangers are pretty cheap.
Guys at work are saying to go full size, but I dont think I need full size.
Does anyone know if Mazda makes the Ranger for Ford, or does Ford make the Bseries for Mazda?
In the Lemonaid 2005 car guide there is a top 10 list for new /used that are economical/durable.
The Mazda's he suggests are the Mazda 3's, and the B series trucks.
If the Ranger/ B series are the same truck I wonder why the Ranger isnt listed?
The advantage to a used Ranger over the B series is the faster depreciation, meaning a better price.
Although I am partial to Japanese vehicles , I have yet to talk to a Ford truck owner who was not happy with their trucks, save for minor cosmetic things, i.e loose door handles, and possibly general fit and finnish.
Not too many complaints major component wise.
Internet and books are fine but I make a habit of asking people in parking lots about their vehicles. If they have had major issues with the vehicle, or a particular dealership/warranty issues, etc, they are more than happy to share.

bean438

Update to the H3.....
As a joke I asked my wife if she would trade the 8 for an H3. She said yes.
As much as i like the 8 it is useless after a blizzard, and honestly sits in our garage all winter unless the street are plowed, and everything is frozen. She drives her mom's accord mostly in the winter.
So I figure that rather than buy something new for my self, I can trade the 8 on the H3.
I would buy myself a new or used Hyundai accent to drive all summer, and most of the winter when roads are good. (95% of the time).
This way I get a new/newer car, we get an H3 for the bad winter days, and we would at least have a vehicle that would be driven all winter instead of sitting in a garage.
She likes the wow factor of the 8, and will not consider trading for anything other than the H3, which also has the same wow factor. Fuel economy is not great but the 8's isnt good either. Factor in premium fuel for the 8 vs regular for the H3, and they are simmilar.
My only concern is she may not like driving such a large vehicle, and regret it once the novelty wears off.
Keep in mind I have no shame in driving an accent.
My goal is to get something new for myself and be able to get to work in a blizzard. The rest of the time the accent would get me around town cheaply, and we would still have a cool vehicle to drive around.
I dont know about reliability of the H3.
I am I crazy even considering this? Lol.
My co workers say if the wife wants you to trade the 8 for an H3 just do it!

Spin9k

8 wow = H3 wow? ...ummmmm if you say so.... nevertheless I had a similar winter car problem...can't bare (dare) to waste the 8 on winter driving and known possibilities of salt and other car's crazy driving. Was leaning towards AWD something. I almost got a Mitsu Outlander after trying Rav4, Volvo S70 AWD, xB, Subie Forester, Subie Outback Jimmy Dean (oops L.L.Bean), VW Jetta Wagon, Mazda Protege5 wagon. Mitsu was 05 demo 2K miles, pleasant if bland and fairly guttless drive.

Then I thought of a PT Cruiser (very flexible box w/high SUVish seating) and found an '04 turbo silver Platinum Edition one w/all the goodies for 13K and w/only 18K miles. So "Sold American (OK - Mexican)" for the 1st time in 40 years(!) as I'm a Japaneese car fan too. Put some M Pilot Alpines and I think I'm ready to go in all weather even thuo only FWD. Nice drive w/gutsy turbo torque and surprisingly decent handling. So there's an alternate thought for you even thou I know your sold on some others pretty much. Good car hunting....nice surprises can come in stange forms I guess is the moral of the story.

bean438

Uh......you dont think an H3 has wow factor? Ok. They are unique and do turn heads.
I went to the dealer today, and was turned right off. Arrogant as hell. Claims there is a line up and they are almost out of their allotment for the year....better hurry.
Funny, they had 6 on the lot. Winnipeg isnt a big city, I do alot of driving, and have only seen 1 H3 in town that happens to be the dealership's painted up driving advertisement.
Once I look past the hype, it really is just an overpriced SUV based on the Colarado.
If I was offroading fine, but for a winter storm overkill.
Its looking like a Ford Ranger if I get a truck, or Subaru Impreza if I get a car.
Clearance is nice but I think I worry too much about it. An AWD Subaru with some good winter tires should do the trick, plus i can keep the 8.
The arrogant sales guy had a 2004 rx8 in the showroom, with 11k of upgrades for 35k. He emphasized the selling price and the upgrades almost to say my car would be worth much less on trade.
I am not too fond of some car sales guys.

Mirrain

I thought i'd finally join up on the forums rather than just read them and throw my .02 cents in. I lived in Brandon for 2 yrs in a similar field so I know the feeling of having to go in no matter what hwy was closed. Added with the fact that we wouldn't see snow plows for days. I traded my car in and bought a jeep last year so i'll give you the pro's and con's of it.

It's a nice toy to have in the summer when you take the tops down, in fact it's amazing. In the winter it feels pretty solid and climbs through the snow very easily. The clearance will never be a problem in the snow. 4X4 is amazing off road (not that MB has many hills ) and they are relatively cheap if you buy one a few years old. The downside of them is they can be costly to repair, have a 13/19 MPG for fuel (exactly the same as the H3) and they take a little getting used to with the road noise and handling. Cargo space barely exists in them, but the seat folds up so without kids you have no problems. I love mine but it's all in what you like. If you were thinking of a jeep, go with the 4.0L, it's got plenty of power. AWD is nice to have but with the amount of snow that build up in Winnipeg you'd almost be better with a little more clearance than an AWD car.

If i had to buy, I'd say go with a Honda CR-V. I've heard nothing but good things about them and their reliability is supposed to be amazing since 98 when they first came out. Just make sure you look for AWD because some are front only. They get 22/27 mpg and would probably be a little easier to cruise around. Jeep Liberty is also nice I think and still gives you the 4x4 (even though i know you're not really interested in the SUV's).

H3 is a sweet truck but it also weighs like 6700+ lbs, so it probably handles like a tank as well. I didn't buy my jeep to have an economical vehicle but after the spike in gas prices over the summer it made me think twice about owning one. I know the 8 isn't a treat on gas either so you probably wouldn't really notice much difference in the consumption.

Good luck with finding one. I just got out of that province before the last snow storm...

bean438

Glad you made it out of the flatlands!
Once you look past the hype of the H3, it is a fancy overpriced piece of metal.
A Jeep tj rubicon unlimited can do pretty much everything the H3 can.
Actually you can lock the front axle on the jeep. Cant do that in the H3.
I would love to have a Jeep, they look like they would be fun, and could plow through the snow.
What I dont like about the Honda is they only go awd once you start slipping.
I really liked the Subaru Imprezza. You can instantly feel the awd working, and provided confidence.
However extra clearance would be nice, even though snow is soft.
We can get some nasty drifts.
I think I am going 4x4 truck, most likely a Ford Ranger. Same truck as the Bseries Mazda's but for a few grand less.
They sit nice and high, 4 wheel drive, reasonably priced, and come with a rear lsd in my price range, unlike the Subaru's.
PLus I can now haul stuff.
Add some good winter rubber, and a bit of weight in the back, and I am good to go.
If I go used, there are lots of Rangers for sale at any time.
I used to drive a 4x2 Nissan, and I do miss the functionality of a truck.
Thanks for all your input guys.

gerhardj

OK like any decent car nut i have to add my bit to this discussion as well. Is'nt it amazing how everyone seems to know best what u should drive? I have been eyeing this vehicle ( attached) - it's not out yet but it's pretty in a way RX8 owners might appreciate....274hp supercharged 4 i believe if the CAR & DRIVER guys have it right! Good luck hunting the right vehicle down. I'm certain you will fun while at it.

bean438

I would love to have the crossport, too bad we cant get it.
Ya, there are lots of different opinions people have, and thats what I asked for.
I may think I know what I want, but someone in the same situation may have done something that I never considered, so it does help.

mikey8

Go for an Audi A4 mainly a 2003 and up model. Amazing cars in the snow with a nice set of winter tires. You get luxury with decent styling and if you ever want to make it a serious racer it has the potential expecially the 1.8T or the 2.7T.

bean438

And the winner is.......2005 Nissan Xterra.
4X4, good clearance, great price, tough looking, good build quality.
Basically the SUV version of the truck i wanted, except it comes with a permanent cap.
Very nice motor, a pig on gas but no worse than the RX8.
I rank Nissan up there with Toyota and Honda. Others dont, and thats why most Nissans come in at less than Toyota prices, and you get more standard features.
The Xterra was also the SUV of the year according to Motor Trend, for whatever its worth.
I am so glad I did not buy a Ford. I found the build quality to be quite poor.
Thats not sying much for a brand new vehicle.

I would share a pic with you guys but for the life of me I cannot figure out how to add a picture to a post.
I know how to add a link...in between the 2 url thingies, but what do I do with the Explorer user prompt?