Footman

iTrader: (2)

Direzzas: 245/40/18 (summer performance tires) on Wedsport SA55M 18 x 9.0
Pilot Alpins: 225/45/18 (winter performance tires) on Fast Phaze 18 x 7.5

I weighed them both on the scale and surprisingly they are the exact weight! The net weight of the Dunlop tire is heavier than the Michelin, but the Wedsport rims are lighter weight than the Fast wheels which made up the difference.

I just put my wheels on tonight. THanks 01racing for the awesome balancing job. I took a test drive and no odd vibrations felt.

I took it for a test drive immediately. Mind you that, the tires are fresh and haven't quite been broken in yet, but there were obvious differences right off the bat already.

First of all, you really do get what you pay for. I am a firm believer now that Michelin do indeed make really great tires. They are expensive, yes, but it's worth it considering you're driving it all the time.

I'm going to have to draw comparisons between the two tires, from my memory of how the Direzza's performed in the summer and the Michelin's now that it's colder outside. It is 4 C outside.

Comfort:
WOW going from 40 profile summer tires to 45 profile winter tires, the difference is NIGHT AND DAY especially now that it's cold. Even as I recall in the summer, the 40's were definitely more harsh over the bumpy roads of Toronto. I can't remember my car being this comfortable now even with Eibach springs and Bilstein B8 shocks. Loving it...

Steering feel:
I now understand what the whole deal is with scrub radius. At a stop, if you turn the wheel on the Dunlops, there is more resistance than the Michelins. The Michelin's feel like the tires are rotating on a dime when you turn the wheel. While driving, the steering feels lighter in the Michelin's than they do on the Dunlops.

Stability at high speeds:
Both tires are very stable. No issues here.

Noise:
The Michelin's are much quieter than the Dunlops. No more annoying tire whining noise around 70 - 75 km/h like the Dunlops. The Michelin's are quiet at all speeds. It's not a tire age isssue, because the Dunlops are brand new this year installed in Spring. We're comparing two sets of brand new tires.

Cornering feel:
I could feel the difference between 40 profile and 45 profile. There is definitely more connectedness and road feel with the Dunlops, but with all that you gotta accept the harshness and feel every single bump in the road. You gotta pay to play so to speak. The dunlops could grip more on corners. The Dunlops can corner faster and feels more planted. The michelin's which are skinnier at 225 feel much lighter on its feet, but the back end starts to rotate easier and earlier than the Dunlops. It's a trade off between raw cornering power and lightness feel.

In the end, I am very satisfied so far with the Pilot Alpin PA3's.... I'm definitely going to consider the Pilot Super Sports next time for summer tires. I felt that I made a mistake going with the Extreme Summer Performance category and bought the Direzza's. The problem with it is, they need to be really warmed up to have better grip. On the streets of Toronto, there isn't enough opportunity to warm the tires up. It would almost require me driving like a maniac at all times to get the tires grippy/soft, but can't do that.

My advice to those who care more about daily driving than full-on track duty, please consider the category below Extreme Summer Performance on Tirerack... the Max summer category where the PIlot Super Sport is slotted in is more than enough to handle street and occasional track duty. I would say, the extreme summer category tires should be used in hotter climates of 90% track duty where it has a chance to warm up. In Toronto, it's really wasted.

MC8jai

iTrader: (1)

How do you compare apple with orange? With summer tire and winter tire, of course there is going to be a big difference. Both tires are designed to work in both extreme end of weather condition. If you compare same summer/winter tire from different brand, thats a different story.
Just my two cents.

Footman

iTrader: (2)

MC8Jai, you're such a hater... you go hatin' on me on the other thread completely unprovoked (as in your name wasn't on the list of attendance, nor were you referenced or implicated in any matter).

Now you come here and crap on my thread for a simple informative comparison between the two tires. I wrote the comparison because a few of my other RX8 friends wanted my input on how they're like.

Go take your hate somewhere else seriously, if you don't like what you're reading, you don't have to read it.

Stop thread crapping, it's a forum rule also.

MC8jai

iTrader: (1)

I am not thread crapping. I just hate to see the wrong information being given to mislead others that is seeking for an answer. I work in a tire store. Brand is going to be different from others. There is also a premium tire and economical tire. When comes to compare 2 different tires or any product, is gonna be the same level/value. I am not trashing your thread. Just giving my comment out to others. We all have the right to express. If you are offended, well, sorry. sometimes truth hurts a little.

Kafka

Calm down footman...I met 8jai before at the track and he is a nice guy...I agree on what he said but I also value your opinion, especially about the max vs extreme summer tire choice.

I am wondering if I should just get re050 or pilot ss.

What's your opinion? 8jai u were using the oem 19 inch setup last summer at shanonville right?

Arca_ex

iTrader: (10)

Yeah I don't really see how comparing a winter tire to a very low treadwear summer extreme performance tire is a fair comparison at all? Not to mention the difference in tire sizes...

I think a better way to do this would have been two separate reviews without trying to compare them as if they were in the same category as each other.


Also, please don't tell anyone here that snow tires are suitable for track days. You'll tear them up.


That being said, I have 265/40R17 Direzza Star Specs on my track wheels right now and I like them. Loads of grip for a 180 treadwear tire right off the bat, even when they're cold. If you heat them up too much though they can get a little greasy but that's my only complaint.

LifeAfterRx8

iTrader: (17)

Yeah,
I'd have to agree as well. It's good that you wrote a review on the Michelins so it's not as if the thread is pointless but you cannot really compare a summer tire with a winter tire.
I'm surprised the winter tires are quieter than the summer tires as from previous experience winter/all season tires are usually nosier than summer tires.

Right now I'm running 225/45/18 Falken Ziex Ze-912s only because they were on sale, had great reviews and I'm planning on upgrading my rims/tires in the future so I was thinking about the Dunlops but if they're noisy I think I may save a bit for greater tires.

Footman

iTrader: (2)

I think you are all mis-interpretting the purpose of this thread. I am trying to give you my first impressions as I had switched over to performance winters from performance summers and in more specific, from the Dunlop Direzza to the Michelin Pilot Alpin's.

At the end, I'm not giving a star-rating, a number out of 5, or a recommendation over which one is better. I am only giving my opinion as to how they felt because a few of my other rx8 friends asked me and they wanted to know.

I typed it here so they could read it and hopefully other people will find it interesting. I don't think there is anything mis-informed in my thread.

Kafka, I've met MC8JAI several times too, and he is a nice guy in person, don't get started with me.

I just don't understand his negative attitude towards the other thread and and this thread in recent succession.

MC8JAI, if I were to truly write a comparison with a recommendation over which tire is better, then yes I would do something like an RE-11 vs. Direzza's. But that is not what I am doing here, hence my thread title says "First impressions". You have misunderstood me.

Footman

iTrader: (2)

Maybe I should re-phrase this thread as "Footman's experience with his summer/winter tire choices"... all I'm trying to is spread my experience with these two tires, I am not recommending one over the other.

The Canada forum has been pretty dead lately, trying to contribute more stuff to read. But if I'm getting bashed like that from people, then I might as well stop trying and quit all together. I've always been helpful in the field, helping people read codes, diagnose problems, seafoaming, troubleshoot problems, and Kafka, I did your foglight rewiring don't forget.

If my contributions to the forum seem pointless to people, then I'm could as well just stop all together. Spending 15 minutes gathering my thoughts and writing the initial post in this thread only to get crapped on as pointless.... man **** that ****.

rx8-druggist

[QUOTE=Kafka;4126877
I am wondering if I should just get re050 or pilot ss.
[/QUOTE]

Kafka, I ran the oem 19" re050 on my first event with Sigma Racing Time Attack and they weren't shabby at all. People bash it all the time, but those tires worked fine on the DDT and still have a crap tonne of tread on it after an 8 hour event. I didnt come close to last place at all that day. But they are absolutely nothing compared to my re-11 lol. They melted on me after this track season passed but they were great for lap times and for a comfortable drive home.

Never tried pilot ss but Al took me in a ride in a Scion tC that had it on and it was doing some seriously whackkkky stuff that I'm not sure my Re-11's could pull off !!

01Racing

Not that I know anything about tires...........but the new Michelin Super Sport is by far the best street/track tire going right now. I put 15K on a set of 245/50R18 Super Sports and they have 3 track days on them. They still have full tread depth and are sticky as when I started. I have never seen a tire with that much grip and stability last anywhere near as long as those Michelins.

Kafka

Dude you are the nicest person I've met and you helped me and the forum A LOT throughout the years...its just that you may be getting agitated easily online when people have different opinion than you, sometimes they were not even trying to argue, just a different point of view.

Remember the Kris vs eddie episode back in the days? We are trying to steer away from that.

Of course, this is just my opinion. Please do go gungho on me... :P

P.S: I also felt more "agile" when I change to my winter tires since its "lighter"

climacus

I have a set of Michelin snow tires with 10 winters on them. It got passed down 3 different cars and still look like new.

RXeckless

iTrader: (5)

wow?

maRs

Why be so critical about a personal review?

Sure, you cant compare apples and oranges but could we not take the thread for what its initially meant to do? (Ie. inform people about his PERSONAL experiences with the tires?) Its meant to just show how he felt after he had swapped his new set of tires, going from extreme performance level to Max performance level and the comfort level from 40 to 45 profile. That's all the thread is saying.

Its true the Canada forum has not been very active recently. Should we not be thankful to have someone take initiative to write and share his experiences so we actually have something interesting to read? Its always been the way to learn about anything related to the car.

Well Yeah, I can see why he's agitated. Not only did he not get appreciated for sharing, readers also misinterpreted the point of the thread and started criticising. It really does make the writer feel shitty and discourages the morale of the forum. Seeing what happened here, would you think this will actually encourage others to share in the future?

Crotalus

I have been a Michelin fan for many years. My Dad sold them for 35 years.

That being said, my 05 RX8 came with them. I loved them, until it rained. In heavy rain they were down right DANGEROUS. The rear end would walk all over the place at anything more than 50 MPH. I just thought it was a problem with the car and I replace them with the same type. After I wore out the second set, I went to Goodyear Eagle GT.

I can't say my dry pavement performance or wear was any better. My rain performance was night and day better. I just looked at the tire website and just by looking at the small picture it seems that the Pilot tread may have been redesigned to be a little more aggressive, but I'm not sure. So I will stay away from Michelin on my 09.

01Racing

Back to winter tires for a moment lol.....................A word of advise..................
Some members have talked to me about what tires to put on their 8's for snow tires. I just spoke with a person who is BFG/Michelin performance dealer in Ontario and he reiterated to me that "an S, T or even H rated tire should not be used on an RX-8 for a winter tire. Even if the sizing is correct it is not the right tire for the car. Some of you may have put them on etc, however from personal experience my MSpeed 6 ruined a set of Blizzak WS's in only 10,000km. The tires wore unevenly and started to feather because of the loads the car is capable of putting on the tire in just regular driving. There is a reason your cars have/require a certian speed rated tire and you should truly stick to it for safety reasons etc.

Neo

Footman,

Good to see some posts being made on the forum. It has been slow lately, and reading up on opinions of tires is always a good start.
Just look at all the responses!!!

On 01Racing's comment, nothing can be stressed more than getting the proper tire for the vehicle. Alot of people don't understand what type of tire to get for their vehicles, and they end up getting the wrong tire due to the speed rating.
speed rating is probably the next important factor when you pick up a set of snow tires.

The minium speed rating for the 8 is a V rated tire. Regardless of it being summer or winter.
Now, finding V rated tires for the 8 is significantly easier than finding a V rated snow tire for the Miata.
I've downsized the Miata to 195/55/16. It's the corresponding size. But the closest speed rated tire I can get was H rated. This being said, the H rated Pirelli's I picked up feel a whole lot stiffer than the Toyo H rated tires I had from last season. I put those winter tires on and the car felt really squishy everywhere.
Not so with the Pirelli's Sottozero's. They do make a V rated tire for that series, but not in the sizes for my car.

So please make sure you spend a little bit more and pick up a set of V rated winter tires for the 8. I know there are more than a few choices out there for the 8 size tires.

Snrub

These comments on speed ratings don't make a lot of sense to me. Could you explain in more detail?

Here's why I'm having trouble:
Tires have a load rating and a speed rating. The load rating means you can run higher weight on the tire (eg. heavier vehicle, cargo). It stands to reason that higher weight rating means it would be better able to handle higher load forces. Stiffer suspension would cause more load on the tire because the suspension isn't absorbing as much energy. A Michelin X-Ice2 in a 17" has a higher load rating than a Dunlop Star Spec for our car in an 18". Speed rating is determined by spinning the tire quickly so it is subjected to higher centrifugal forces. These forces go up exponentially with speed, so the tires at the higher speed ratings have to be much stronger so it doesn't tear apart. The ability to withstand centrifugal force and the ability to withstand weight/load are different qualities. Additionally, a tire might be stiffer an yet have a lower load rating. I could see a tire with a higher speed rating being stiffer, but I don't see why this would affect the suitability of the tire. A softer tire would mean the suspension does less.

As for the feel comparison between tires, keep in mind that the winter tires have a smaller contact patch than summer tires of the same section width because there are more gaps and larger gaps in the tread. The tread blocks are also more flexible in winter tires. Take your fingers and push on the tread. You can move it a bit. Try the same thing on summer tires. Additionally winter tires usually have little groves for ice handling inside the tread blocks. The tread blocks are able to open up a bit, almost like a brush effect.

Arca_ex

iTrader: (10)

Speed rating is unimportant if you don't plan on going faster than 100MPH. It shouldn't be a deciding factor in what tires you buy unless you criminally speed and endanger other people's lives often or you track the car at triple digit speeds. I don't understand why you're so hung up on having a tire that's rated out to 150MPH. If you get a lower rated tire, it's pretty damn simple to just not go that fast...

01Racing

Very simple, speed and load rating on low profile tires go in tandem. You wont find a high load rating on a 40 series tire without the corresponding speed rating. The speed rating is also a construction principle of the tire which include cornering force etc. It really doesnt affect my wallet if people make the wrong tire choice and either lose control, have a failure or simply wear out tires long before they should. I have been involved with the tire manufacturers since 1990 and was involved with winter testing etc. Just trying to pass on experience. This is no different than the whole pre-mix discussions, your trying to out engineer the design engineers and that aint gonna happen lol.

Neo

I was just about to reply to this, but thank you 01Racing for enlightening a few people here.

Can't build a tire with 1 setting only. It's the overall construction of the tire that matters.

If you guys think you can get away with using a lower speed rating tire on your 8, go right ahead. If you're so intune with your car, you'll notice the difference in every aspect of the 8's response. And you'll come to the conclusion the car handles like crap. But if you can save more money by using a Q rated tire as opposed to a proper V rated tire, than go right ahead.

Snrub

According to Tire Rack: "Speed ratings are based on laboratory tests where the tire is pressed against a large diameter metal drum to reflect its appropriate load, and run at ever increasing speeds (in 6.2 mph steps in 10 minute increments) until the tire's required speed has been met." The load rating of a 215/45/18 XIce2 is 1279lbs, 225/45/18 Star Specs are 1356lbs. That's a pretty small load difference relative to a large centrifugal force rating difference. I may be mistaken, but there doesn't seem to a strong direct correlation to handling (there is obviously some correlation). Thoughts?

As for the wear, I'm not saying the aforementioned experience isn't valid. However, my experience over the last decade of winter driving RX-7 TII/RX-8 with pure winter tires with low speed ratings has resulted in no such issues. I know of others with similar experience in other cars.

There's no question there is a large handling trade-off with winter tires, or higher profile tires, or both. I believe this trade-off is a result of factors other than the speed rating.