Warning Against Highly Favored Pirelli PZero Nero M+S
06-01-2005, 06:46 PM
#1
AA = Autox Anonymous
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 449
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Warning Against Highly Favored Pirelli PZero Nero M+S
While TireRack's test/survey and many RX-8 owners speak highly of the tire in focus, I have tried to provide a balanced review on many occasions in the long running thread found here:
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-wheels-tires-brakes-suspension-55/pirelli-pzero-nero-m-s-21980/
Some of my posts are as follows:
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=282
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=115
Please carefully consider my experience and use pattern before you decide on buying the Pirelli PZero Nero M+S. I drive spiritedly but not aggressively on public roads and autocrossing five times on them on asphalt, none in blazing hot temperature. Each autocross event had about 8 runs, ranging anywhere between 40-70sec. As mentioned, Kumho Ecsta ASX fares significantly better in term of wear on the same exact autocross field with similar number of runs/event.
As you can see from the photos attached, there is strong evidence of chunking and feathering on outside edges. Horrendous? Absolutely! To make matter worse, the tires have minimal grip in cold temperature on slightly damp road. The rear tires easily loose traction in mid-corner at low speed (<25mph) with light throttle input under such condition with both TCS/DSC on.
There may be external factors that attribute to the current states of these tires such as bad alignment and overheating. However, the alignment settings are well within the manufacture specified range and the overheating is probable but impossible due to short duration of autocross runs.
I am only relaying on my firsthand knowledge with close to 11k miles of running time since 6/04. While the majority of you will continue buying the Pirelli PZero Nero M+S based on positive reviews, please consider mine as a counter-point in your decision.
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-wheels-tires-brakes-suspension-55/pirelli-pzero-nero-m-s-21980/
Some of my posts are as follows:
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=282
https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=115
Please carefully consider my experience and use pattern before you decide on buying the Pirelli PZero Nero M+S. I drive spiritedly but not aggressively on public roads and autocrossing five times on them on asphalt, none in blazing hot temperature. Each autocross event had about 8 runs, ranging anywhere between 40-70sec. As mentioned, Kumho Ecsta ASX fares significantly better in term of wear on the same exact autocross field with similar number of runs/event.
As you can see from the photos attached, there is strong evidence of chunking and feathering on outside edges. Horrendous? Absolutely! To make matter worse, the tires have minimal grip in cold temperature on slightly damp road. The rear tires easily loose traction in mid-corner at low speed (<25mph) with light throttle input under such condition with both TCS/DSC on.
There may be external factors that attribute to the current states of these tires such as bad alignment and overheating. However, the alignment settings are well within the manufacture specified range and the overheating is probable but impossible due to short duration of autocross runs.
I am only relaying on my firsthand knowledge with close to 11k miles of running time since 6/04. While the majority of you will continue buying the Pirelli PZero Nero M+S based on positive reviews, please consider mine as a counter-point in your decision.
06-01-2005, 08:26 PM
#3
Registered
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 589
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have the Kumhos on my MP3, and have been very disappointed with them. I dont autocross, and I imagine most folks don't and street tires are not designed for this use anyway, but when it came to grip, in almost all conditions, the OEM Dunlop 9000s were superior.
I'm due for new shoes this month, and I'm going to try the Avon all-weather tires. Good price and good writeups.
I'm due for new shoes this month, and I'm going to try the Avon all-weather tires. Good price and good writeups.
06-01-2005, 09:46 PM
#4
AA = Autox Anonymous
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 449
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MP3Guy,
For Avon M550, see the following thread over at NASIOC for feedbacks written by Internet-savvy-enthusiast-oriented WRX/STI owners:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ight=avon+m550
Additionally, virtual benchmarking can be accomplished since Goodyear Eagle RS-A is used as the control tire without Avon M550 competing head-to-head with Kumho Ecsta ASX/Pirelli PZero Nero M+S:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/..._m550_as_c.jsp
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...csta_asx_c.jsp
On the basis of lap time, the order of performance is as such:
Pirelli/Kumho/Avon/Goodyear
Nevertheless, given my own experience, I will be trying Toyo Proxes 4 most likely if I have to stick with UHPAS (Ultra High Performance All-Season).
For Avon M550, see the following thread over at NASIOC for feedbacks written by Internet-savvy-enthusiast-oriented WRX/STI owners:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ight=avon+m550
Additionally, virtual benchmarking can be accomplished since Goodyear Eagle RS-A is used as the control tire without Avon M550 competing head-to-head with Kumho Ecsta ASX/Pirelli PZero Nero M+S:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/..._m550_as_c.jsp
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...csta_asx_c.jsp
HTML Code:
Tire Lap Time(Dry/Wet) Goodyear Eagle RS-A 30.86/33.44 Avon M550 30.55/33.40 Kumho Ecsta ASX 30.55/33.10 Pirelli PZero Nero M+S 30.21/32.66
Pirelli/Kumho/Avon/Goodyear
Nevertheless, given my own experience, I will be trying Toyo Proxes 4 most likely if I have to stick with UHPAS (Ultra High Performance All-Season).
Last edited by CRX Millennium; 06-01-2005 at 09:52 PM.
06-01-2005, 11:44 PM
#5
Umm... aren't those tracks 1 to 2 miles?
8x2 = 16miles x 5 = 80 miles
I get that wear with 160 miles on race course with about 40 % wear to tires.
Seems normal to me as you have plenty of tread. Wear marks from gripping tires.
I couldn't see the chunks. But they shouldn't happen unless you drive over gravel or go off the track into dirt/gravel.
Ask some guys in the race section.
8x2 = 16miles x 5 = 80 miles
I get that wear with 160 miles on race course with about 40 % wear to tires.
Seems normal to me as you have plenty of tread. Wear marks from gripping tires.
I couldn't see the chunks. But they shouldn't happen unless you drive over gravel or go off the track into dirt/gravel.
Ask some guys in the race section.
06-02-2005, 06:39 AM
#6
AA = Autox Anonymous
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 449
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Razz1,
The Pirellis do not see any "road track" action, just regular autocross events, which is less than a mile for each run. My mileage odometer shows <10mi for each event. This thread is not about complaint against quickness of wear, rather the state of the wear. I gave up on tread when I signed in the dotted line to pick up this car.
"Seems normal to me as you have plenty of tread. Wear marks from gripping tires."
Forget about the tread, since it is a non-issue for me. The marks on the outside edge clearly exhibit signs of excessive "melting" for lack of better/accurate technical term. Furthermore, Kumho Ecsta ASX, another highly rated UHPAS, performs just as well without subjecting to wear marks similar to mine on another RX-8, equally equipped in AT. The rear-end-step-out-of-line symptom is frankly not what you would expect on these Pirellis, but that is how they are in on my car.
The Pirellis do not see any "road track" action, just regular autocross events, which is less than a mile for each run. My mileage odometer shows <10mi for each event. This thread is not about complaint against quickness of wear, rather the state of the wear. I gave up on tread when I signed in the dotted line to pick up this car.
"Seems normal to me as you have plenty of tread. Wear marks from gripping tires."
Forget about the tread, since it is a non-issue for me. The marks on the outside edge clearly exhibit signs of excessive "melting" for lack of better/accurate technical term. Furthermore, Kumho Ecsta ASX, another highly rated UHPAS, performs just as well without subjecting to wear marks similar to mine on another RX-8, equally equipped in AT. The rear-end-step-out-of-line symptom is frankly not what you would expect on these Pirellis, but that is how they are in on my car.
06-02-2005, 10:28 AM
#7
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: N.E. Ohio
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Autocrossing with street tires
Having run our Boxster for 3 years on auto-x courses with street tires, Michelin MXXX, I'd say your tires really don't look too bad, all things considered. Especially considering this is an all season tire.
We rode on the Michelins (max summer perform.) for 3 years doing an average 5 auto-x courses/year with a track day thrown in every so often. Our outside edges were a lot more chewed up than yours at the end,--30K miles. The track surface has a lot to do with it. New ashphalt won't do as much damage as a old, ragged surface.
After destroying the OEM tires, we replaced them with Kuhmo MX's, not a bad tire at the price, and use those for street driving and track days. I bought an extra set of rims and put Kuhmo Victoracers on for the auto-x courses. To me this makes much more sense; street tires just don't compare with R compound tires for autocrossing. I'm not sure if anybody makes a R compund tire for the RX8 size but if you put them on your car the difference in performance will amaze you.
The Pirelli is a compromise tire; 4 season use for those that don't see a lot of snow, don't want to go with mutiple sets of tires/rims and still provide decent performance.
I hear what you're saying about not being the "end all" tire, but based on the TireRak stats, they look pretty good to the competition--hgih perfromance all season tires. Based on what you're doing with your car, the BFG KDW2 or michelin PS2 might be a better choice for summer driving.
We rode on the Michelins (max summer perform.) for 3 years doing an average 5 auto-x courses/year with a track day thrown in every so often. Our outside edges were a lot more chewed up than yours at the end,--30K miles. The track surface has a lot to do with it. New ashphalt won't do as much damage as a old, ragged surface.
After destroying the OEM tires, we replaced them with Kuhmo MX's, not a bad tire at the price, and use those for street driving and track days. I bought an extra set of rims and put Kuhmo Victoracers on for the auto-x courses. To me this makes much more sense; street tires just don't compare with R compound tires for autocrossing. I'm not sure if anybody makes a R compund tire for the RX8 size but if you put them on your car the difference in performance will amaze you.
The Pirelli is a compromise tire; 4 season use for those that don't see a lot of snow, don't want to go with mutiple sets of tires/rims and still provide decent performance.
I hear what you're saying about not being the "end all" tire, but based on the TireRak stats, they look pretty good to the competition--hgih perfromance all season tires. Based on what you're doing with your car, the BFG KDW2 or michelin PS2 might be a better choice for summer driving.
07-30-2005, 01:56 PM
#11
Registered User
CRX,
What PSI were you running at? I assume it was >30 PSI but if it was low that would explain the poor wet weather performance and the overheating at the race track.
Thanks for your input.
-Mr. Wigggles
What PSI were you running at? I assume it was >30 PSI but if it was low that would explain the poor wet weather performance and the overheating at the race track.
Thanks for your input.
-Mr. Wigggles
08-07-2005, 03:01 PM
#12
Registered
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I love my P Zero Niro M+S tires, I understand they are not made for track and autocross events. It says on the reviews of them on Tire Rack's site that overheating may cause them to "chunk". That is the trade off for being a decent snow tire with a long life. I use Summer only performance tires for such things. You should too. It is my Thanksgiving to Spring tire. 8)
08-19-2005, 07:34 AM
#13
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Gonzales, LA
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm looking for new tires....actually need them in like 2 weeks according to Mazda. I am approachign 28K. I've been researching:
Not getting OEM Potenzas back on - noisy now and PRICEY!
What about these:
Kumho Extsta Spt
BF Goodrich g-force T/A KDW
Toyo Proxes 4
Avon Tech M550 A/S
Dunlop Direzza DZ101
Any comments? These were some of the choices I was given by many tire dealers.
Thanks,
DS (anutha Rx8 gurl)
Not getting OEM Potenzas back on - noisy now and PRICEY!
What about these:
Kumho Extsta Spt
BF Goodrich g-force T/A KDW
Toyo Proxes 4
Avon Tech M550 A/S
Dunlop Direzza DZ101
Any comments? These were some of the choices I was given by many tire dealers.
Thanks,
DS (anutha Rx8 gurl)
08-19-2005, 01:02 PM
#14
AA = Autox Anonymous
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 449
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MrWigggles,
Sorry for the late reply, surprised that the thread is still alive. For air pressure, here are the settings:
street: F34/R33
autox: F40/R35
I run exclusively on asphalt during autox. Given the feedbacks provided by seasoned autoxers on regular street tire, the wear seems to be tolerable by most. Though comparing Pirelli PZero Nero M+S to Kumho ASX, the former wears out faster albeit being the stickier of the two. Trying Toyo Proxes 4 soon in the next few weeks. Additionally, the incremental toe-in in the back may also be contributing to the rear being tail-happy.
Sorry for the late reply, surprised that the thread is still alive. For air pressure, here are the settings:
street: F34/R33
autox: F40/R35
I run exclusively on asphalt during autox. Given the feedbacks provided by seasoned autoxers on regular street tire, the wear seems to be tolerable by most. Though comparing Pirelli PZero Nero M+S to Kumho ASX, the former wears out faster albeit being the stickier of the two. Trying Toyo Proxes 4 soon in the next few weeks. Additionally, the incremental toe-in in the back may also be contributing to the rear being tail-happy.
08-19-2005, 04:33 PM
#16
AA = Autox Anonymous
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 449
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Alignment-to-specific-spec was done before the start of autox season and right after all potholes were filled during spring. The alignment is good, therefore, cannot be linked to feathering.
Yes, people do autocross on all-seasons before moving onto summer/r-compound. Autox is about car-control, not who's got the most grips. All that being said, I will be campaigning on summer tire next season using dedicated second set.
Yes, people do autocross on all-seasons before moving onto summer/r-compound. Autox is about car-control, not who's got the most grips. All that being said, I will be campaigning on summer tire next season using dedicated second set.
08-22-2005, 07:28 AM
#18
www.TeamWTF.org
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by zoom44
tire feathering is caused by too much toe in or toe out. period.
08-23-2005, 04:52 PM
#20
Smooth Criminal
I run a 300 treadwear rated high performance street tire, for autocross, and I do NOT get the chunking like in his pictures. I also ran a track day, in scorching heat, and did not get the chunking in my tires. They had visible wear, but nothing more than what i expected.
I had read that the pirellis were not real good for autocross or track use. If you use them for what they are for, and they get all messed up, then you have a problem, but when you exceed the tires capability, don't be surprised when they look like your tires. my two bits.
I had read that the pirellis were not real good for autocross or track use. If you use them for what they are for, and they get all messed up, then you have a problem, but when you exceed the tires capability, don't be surprised when they look like your tires. my two bits.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
hufflepuff
Series I Wheels, Tires, Brakes & Suspension
6
05-30-2016 10:45 AM
duworm
Series I Wheels, Tires, Brakes & Suspension
1
10-01-2015 04:57 PM
jasonrxeight
RX-8's For Sale/Wanted
2
09-30-2015 01:53 PM
