We've seen this before, Starts right up, runs, dies after 5-10 minutes, won't start..
10-16-2015, 09:32 AM
#1
Registered
Thread Starter
We've seen this before, Starts right up, runs, dies after 5-10 minutes, won't start..
Dear RX8 community,
I know this has been discussed a thousand times, but I'm going to try a little different approach here.
Who's had this issue first hand, and what did you do to resolve it?
Here's the story:
It's late in the evening, as the lighting changes to dusk, your mind starts to slip into the evening. The day you've had at work is behind you, thoughts of evening television programming and your signifigant other begin to transition to the front of your thoughts. Then it hits.
You haven't had dinner, and pizza is the right thing to do.
Your Renesis powered chariot awaits. It has strongly campaigned with you on many achievements and pizza recon missions and has never let you down. You don't cherish it as much as you should though. The plugs have never been changed and you enjoy filling up with the most premium fuel from your local discount grocery store and Race Trac stations. You're a cheap bastard. You call in your order to Domino's because you have no class, and you refuse to spend an extra dollar to get a real pizza. You run to your Rx-8, insert the key as you've done thousands of times, and like brushing your teeth you carelessly begin going all-out. But this isn't scrubbing your gums with Crest, this is driving a rotary. Before the engine is properly warmed up you press in the clutch and rev to 9,000 rpm, hoping to impress the illegal, underdeveloped high school girls in your low-rent apartment complex, crank your Nikki Manaj and drive your $408 a month car you bought at a buy-here-pay-here lot to Dominos.
You don't make it.
In a panic, you list the car on craigslist.
A gentleman comes by with a truck, explains to you as you proceed to cold start and rev the crap out of it to show him it runs fine, that that is probably the worst thing you can do to the Rx-8, and you assure him you don't do it because it's a natural defense mechanism when you get caught being incredibly ignorant. The gentleman proceeds to drive the car, he notices all the forward gears work, he noticed that it started right up when cold, he noticed it doesn't smoke, but he calls you 5 minutes later when it shut off when he pressed the clutch in and will not restart, and the battery is dead because it's probably incredibly old and has about as much electricity as the flavor in a Domino's 5.99 medium pizza. After he helps you bring the car back he says he will make you an offer the next day and bring a trailer.
More than likely, this is the story of the previous owner of the RX-8 I'm more than likely going to purchase this afternoon. The potential buyer gentleman (myself) has looked around, and truly believes he may be able to decarbon the engine, change the plugs and coils, remove the cats, and insert this engine into a car for the 24 Hours of lemons, run it on pre-mix in addition to the factory oil injection, and have a car that won't break as long as the radiator is big enough and the oil coolers are doing their job.
Again, summary:
Car starts fine when cold. Sounds like it has compression (constant bump when turning starter). Car doesn't smoke, guages indicate car's temps are fine, and car drives fine and makes (as much) power like a stock rx-8. car seems to run indefinitely until you push in the clutch long enough for the revs to fall to 0, then it will not start for about 15 minutes of sitting. After it sits 15-20 minutes, fires right up and you can repeat these steps in an endless cycle I am sure.
The ultimate Question:
Is the potential buyer / Am I being rational? Do you like Domino's pizza and think they are being unfairly mocked?
If you have first hand experience with either, please share through your keyboard.
I know this has been discussed a thousand times, but I'm going to try a little different approach here.
Who's had this issue first hand, and what did you do to resolve it?
Here's the story:
It's late in the evening, as the lighting changes to dusk, your mind starts to slip into the evening. The day you've had at work is behind you, thoughts of evening television programming and your signifigant other begin to transition to the front of your thoughts. Then it hits.
You haven't had dinner, and pizza is the right thing to do.
Your Renesis powered chariot awaits. It has strongly campaigned with you on many achievements and pizza recon missions and has never let you down. You don't cherish it as much as you should though. The plugs have never been changed and you enjoy filling up with the most premium fuel from your local discount grocery store and Race Trac stations. You're a cheap bastard. You call in your order to Domino's because you have no class, and you refuse to spend an extra dollar to get a real pizza. You run to your Rx-8, insert the key as you've done thousands of times, and like brushing your teeth you carelessly begin going all-out. But this isn't scrubbing your gums with Crest, this is driving a rotary. Before the engine is properly warmed up you press in the clutch and rev to 9,000 rpm, hoping to impress the illegal, underdeveloped high school girls in your low-rent apartment complex, crank your Nikki Manaj and drive your $408 a month car you bought at a buy-here-pay-here lot to Dominos.
You don't make it.
In a panic, you list the car on craigslist.
A gentleman comes by with a truck, explains to you as you proceed to cold start and rev the crap out of it to show him it runs fine, that that is probably the worst thing you can do to the Rx-8, and you assure him you don't do it because it's a natural defense mechanism when you get caught being incredibly ignorant. The gentleman proceeds to drive the car, he notices all the forward gears work, he noticed that it started right up when cold, he noticed it doesn't smoke, but he calls you 5 minutes later when it shut off when he pressed the clutch in and will not restart, and the battery is dead because it's probably incredibly old and has about as much electricity as the flavor in a Domino's 5.99 medium pizza. After he helps you bring the car back he says he will make you an offer the next day and bring a trailer.
More than likely, this is the story of the previous owner of the RX-8 I'm more than likely going to purchase this afternoon. The potential buyer gentleman (myself) has looked around, and truly believes he may be able to decarbon the engine, change the plugs and coils, remove the cats, and insert this engine into a car for the 24 Hours of lemons, run it on pre-mix in addition to the factory oil injection, and have a car that won't break as long as the radiator is big enough and the oil coolers are doing their job.
Again, summary:
Car starts fine when cold. Sounds like it has compression (constant bump when turning starter). Car doesn't smoke, guages indicate car's temps are fine, and car drives fine and makes (as much) power like a stock rx-8. car seems to run indefinitely until you push in the clutch long enough for the revs to fall to 0, then it will not start for about 15 minutes of sitting. After it sits 15-20 minutes, fires right up and you can repeat these steps in an endless cycle I am sure.
The ultimate Question:
Is the potential buyer / Am I being rational? Do you like Domino's pizza and think they are being unfairly mocked?
If you have first hand experience with either, please share through your keyboard.
Last edited by mikespeed95; 10-16-2015 at 09:43 AM.
10-19-2015, 07:59 PM
#4
40th anniversary Edition
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tro...t-here-222584/
Starting the Engine
• Starter
• Battery
• Engine Compression
• Grounding Wires
• Ignition Coils
• Spark Plugs
• Spark Plug Wires
• Fuel Pump
• Fuel Injectors
10-20-2015, 04:13 AM
#5
I agree with all that's said above.
But I've had a similar experience when I installed my rebuilt motor where it would start and run fine for several minutes, then it would struggle to stay idle (like RPM idle hunting).
Then if you let it keep going, it would eventually stall.
At that point it would be difficult to start and you begin questioning compression (even though mine was just rebuilt by RR).
After much much time troubleshooting it ended up being the ignition coils.
They worked fine to get the car started, but once warmed, they would begin to fail.
Once those were changed out, the car idled just fine.
That was just my experience and your situation could be different.
But compression results would be ideal since that could be the most costly repair if bad.
Good luck!
But I've had a similar experience when I installed my rebuilt motor where it would start and run fine for several minutes, then it would struggle to stay idle (like RPM idle hunting).
Then if you let it keep going, it would eventually stall.
At that point it would be difficult to start and you begin questioning compression (even though mine was just rebuilt by RR).
After much much time troubleshooting it ended up being the ignition coils.
They worked fine to get the car started, but once warmed, they would begin to fail.
Once those were changed out, the car idled just fine.
That was just my experience and your situation could be different.
But compression results would be ideal since that could be the most costly repair if bad.
Good luck!
10-20-2015, 03:09 PM
#6
Registered
Thread Starter
I agree with all that's said above.
But I've had a similar experience when I installed my rebuilt motor where it would start and run fine for several minutes, then it would struggle to stay idle (like RPM idle hunting).
Then if you let it keep going, it would eventually stall.
At that point it would be difficult to start and you begin questioning compression (even though mine was just rebuilt by RR).
After much much time troubleshooting it ended up being the ignition coils.
They worked fine to get the car started, but once warmed, they would begin to fail.
Once those were changed out, the car idled just fine.
That was just my experience and your situation could be different.
But compression results would be ideal since that could be the most costly repair if bad.
Good luck!
But I've had a similar experience when I installed my rebuilt motor where it would start and run fine for several minutes, then it would struggle to stay idle (like RPM idle hunting).
Then if you let it keep going, it would eventually stall.
At that point it would be difficult to start and you begin questioning compression (even though mine was just rebuilt by RR).
After much much time troubleshooting it ended up being the ignition coils.
They worked fine to get the car started, but once warmed, they would begin to fail.
Once those were changed out, the car idled just fine.
That was just my experience and your situation could be different.
But compression results would be ideal since that could be the most costly repair if bad.
Good luck!
I have a bunch of LSx coils laying around, may try to make those work.
What coils did you use?
Also how many of you guys premix on here? I did alot with my FC.
10-20-2015, 03:39 PM
#7
I have a box full of old OEM coils, so I threw four random coils at it.
Once I validated the coils were the culprit, I purchased new OEM coils.
Think I should clarify...
I had BHR coils installed. Before the motor rebuild the coils performed fine.
Its possible (and likely) that I did something to make them not operate as they should anymore.
Wire might have snagged, got pulled, or something.
Was going to ask BHR to look at them and get it repaired, just haven't done that yet.
Once I validated the coils were the culprit, I purchased new OEM coils.
Think I should clarify...
I had BHR coils installed. Before the motor rebuild the coils performed fine.
Its possible (and likely) that I did something to make them not operate as they should anymore.
Wire might have snagged, got pulled, or something.
Was going to ask BHR to look at them and get it repaired, just haven't done that yet.
10-20-2015, 03:42 PM
#8
Registered
Thread Starter
So are your guys having problem with weak, or straight dead coils?
I'm having a hard time finding some real data on this site, most of the guys seem kinda green at diag and working on cars, which is fine, we've all got to start somewhere. I'm just trying to decide if I want to mess with putting bigger coils on or just buying new ones.
It seems like the coils are a common enough problem where I don't' mind eliminating that variable from my powertrain since this is going in a 24 hours of lemons car and needs to endure some pretty incredible abuse.
I'm having a hard time finding some real data on this site, most of the guys seem kinda green at diag and working on cars, which is fine, we've all got to start somewhere. I'm just trying to decide if I want to mess with putting bigger coils on or just buying new ones.
It seems like the coils are a common enough problem where I don't' mind eliminating that variable from my powertrain since this is going in a 24 hours of lemons car and needs to endure some pretty incredible abuse.
won't start when hot
10-20-2015, 05:10 PM
#10
Registered
Thread Starter
I'm probably going to have to rebuild it anyways, little bit of coolant in the oil. Was hoping to get it running well before transplanting it into new vehicle, but we'll see.
10-20-2015, 05:52 PM
#13
10-20-2015, 05:57 PM
#14
Registered
Thread Starter
Yeah, car is literally sitting outside my shop, plan on dropping the whole drivetrain/subframes as soon as I install my 2 post lift this weekend and then taking motor apart for rebuild, then starting to work on grafting subframes onto a Dodge Rampage...because....it's just a great idea that can only end well.
10-21-2015, 08:26 AM
#15
40th anniversary Edition
So are your guys having problem with weak, or straight dead coils?
I'm having a hard time finding some real data on this site, most of the guys seem kinda green at diag and working on cars, which is fine, we've all got to start somewhere. I'm just trying to decide if I want to mess with putting bigger coils on or just buying new ones.
It seems like the coils are a common enough problem where I don't' mind eliminating that variable from my powertrain since this is going in a 24 hours of lemons car and needs to endure some pretty incredible abuse.
I'm having a hard time finding some real data on this site, most of the guys seem kinda green at diag and working on cars, which is fine, we've all got to start somewhere. I'm just trying to decide if I want to mess with putting bigger coils on or just buying new ones.
It seems like the coils are a common enough problem where I don't' mind eliminating that variable from my powertrain since this is going in a 24 hours of lemons car and needs to endure some pretty incredible abuse.
You have a number of options for coils:
- The Cheapest option: BWD/Intermotor coils from auto parts stores like Advance Auto. 4 coils, 4 plugs, and 4 wires can be had for around $190-220 total based on whatever promotion is running at the time, shipped to your door for free. They are considered to be the first coil revision and you should expect to need to replace them around 20,000 miles, 30,000 miles max. They often come with a "lifetime warranty" by the auto parts store, which could potentially be leveraged for perpetually new coils.
- The Best Upgrade: The BHR ignition coil upgrade can be had for around $500, which eliminates the need to continue replacing coils periodically, as well as deliverying a significantly stronger spark for minor mileage and power gains. It is a proven kit with top notch customer service supporting it. It includes the wires, you still need to add plugs ($80)
- The For-Sure OEM: Mazmart sells all 4 coils of the latest OEM coil revision (C) for around $250, (just the coils, you still need to add plugs and wires) Supported by top notch customer service. They will likely last longer than 30,000 miles, but we don't have much solid data on how long the latest coil revision will last.
- The Most Expensive option: Buying from a dealer will run you around $300+ for the coils, $500+ for coils, wires and plugs, and if you have them do the install, expect to get a bill for anywhere from $700 to $1,800. You may not get the latest coil revision. Yes, you are getting shafted if you take this option, so bring lube.
- The Highest Risk option: Ebay coils continue to pop up as counterfeit, mislabeled, dead on arrival, and have zero post-purchase support largely. They are the "cheapest" listed price, but when you add that $92 or whatever to the price of anything in the list above from having to do it over again, you can see that they are no longer the cheapest option. Do it right the first time. "Motor King" coils are popping up at an attractive price on Ebay, but are being proven as ineffective, to the point of being unable to get the engine fired. "Mazda" branded coils on ebay are almost always counterfeit. Check the seller's name though, since some of our vendors sell legitimate coils there. The price will be $200+ though. Anything sold as "Mazda OEM" under ~$26 per coil should really be considered as suspect and probably counterfeit.
Be wary of "LSx D585 coil upgrades", as not all D585 coils are created the same, and the standard generic D585 coil is not properly designed internally for the RX-8's ignition needs. They generally "work", but there are anomalies and performance issues that have to be solved, if they can be solved. Definitely NOT a plug and play option, even if it is advertised as "plug and play"
10-21-2015, 11:05 PM
#19
40th anniversary Edition
Mikespeed, there is a ton of data and experience here from members all over the world who have decades of rotary and specifically RX8 knowledge. You just have to know how to ask questions clearly to get the info you need. And you have to be willing to do some thread searching yourself, instead of just waiting for the rest of us to fill you in.
We are an informed , giving and sharing bunch. But you also need to know how to use this forum to your best advantage, and not just to start complaining after just 10 posts that you don't have answers to your satisfaction.
As a rotary owner and driver for over 43 years and an original member of several rotary clubs, including the original RX7 club, I can tell you this club and its forum is the most informed , experienced and helpful bunch of folks you will ever find for any car enthusiast.
Mike, take a deep breath, relax and give us some more specific info about your current situation and what you are planning to try, and/or have already tried, and any results. Then we can help guide you better.
Cheers
We are an informed , giving and sharing bunch. But you also need to know how to use this forum to your best advantage, and not just to start complaining after just 10 posts that you don't have answers to your satisfaction.
As a rotary owner and driver for over 43 years and an original member of several rotary clubs, including the original RX7 club, I can tell you this club and its forum is the most informed , experienced and helpful bunch of folks you will ever find for any car enthusiast.
Mike, take a deep breath, relax and give us some more specific info about your current situation and what you are planning to try, and/or have already tried, and any results. Then we can help guide you better.
Cheers
Last edited by gwilliams6; 10-21-2015 at 11:12 PM.
10-22-2015, 10:01 AM
#20
Registered
Thread Starter
I've never participated in a forum where someone asks;
"Are you guys having weak, or no spark" after requesting not to have people reply unless they have first hand experience, and getting no replies other than "What are you asking"
I can't say I had problems like this when Bush was in office. #thanksobama
"Are you guys having weak, or no spark" after requesting not to have people reply unless they have first hand experience, and getting no replies other than "What are you asking"
I can't say I had problems like this when Bush was in office. #thanksobama
10-23-2015, 08:55 AM
#21
40th anniversary Edition
Because the answer is so obvious. If you are having weak or no spark you check the battery, the coils, wires and plugs. So Mike, is that what you are experiencing, or what ?
Last edited by gwilliams6; 10-23-2015 at 08:58 AM.
10-23-2015, 01:13 PM
#22
Registered
Thread Starter
Question:
What problems are other people having? Weak or No Spark?
Answer:
Use teleportation to check their cars to see if their coils completely die, or just go partially out.
:slow clap:
What problems are other people having? Weak or No Spark?
Answer:
Use teleportation to check their cars to see if their coils completely die, or just go partially out.
:slow clap:
10-24-2015, 05:40 PM
#24
Water Foul
^ Let's hope so.
The answer to your question is, sometimes people experience weak spark, and sometimes people experience no spark. Examination of the plugs and the use of an HEI spark tester will tell you what is going on with yours.
The answer to your question is, sometimes people experience weak spark, and sometimes people experience no spark. Examination of the plugs and the use of an HEI spark tester will tell you what is going on with yours.
