Synthetic or Regular
02-24-2012, 10:25 AM
#52
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1) I noted that Mazda has reasons other than technical engineering ones to make a given selection
2) You noted that Mazda knows far more than we do
3) I noted that unless Mazda gives their reasons for each oil, we won't know why this oil was selected.
4) You noted that Mazda will never give those reasons.
Which brings us back to my previous points. Without knowing why they did not select each other different oil weight/type, we can not make the assumption that the selection was the best from a technical perspective.
I agree with you that they want us to keep coming back, but that is not a technical reason, as I noted before. They only have a vested interest in getting the proper lubrication to a point. There is a balance between everything. For example, what if the best oil is a 5w50, but they found that when they ran that, it couldn't hit the emissions or economy needed to get it to sell in the first place? Well, they have to compromise at that point.
They could not have selected an oil for long term durability before the car was produced. Only from pre-production testing that gave them all the related factors. You could easily have had the engineers insisting on one weight, and the marketing people say "no, we need the better mileage to get this vehicle sold."
2) You noted that Mazda knows far more than we do
3) I noted that unless Mazda gives their reasons for each oil, we won't know why this oil was selected.
4) You noted that Mazda will never give those reasons.
Which brings us back to my previous points. Without knowing why they did not select each other different oil weight/type, we can not make the assumption that the selection was the best from a technical perspective.
I agree with you that they want us to keep coming back, but that is not a technical reason, as I noted before. They only have a vested interest in getting the proper lubrication to a point. There is a balance between everything. For example, what if the best oil is a 5w50, but they found that when they ran that, it couldn't hit the emissions or economy needed to get it to sell in the first place? Well, they have to compromise at that point.
They could not have selected an oil for long term durability before the car was produced. Only from pre-production testing that gave them all the related factors. You could easily have had the engineers insisting on one weight, and the marketing people say "no, we need the better mileage to get this vehicle sold."
02-24-2012, 10:53 AM
#53
I'm gonna say the same thing : most if not all manufacture today will use whatever they can to MAKE SURE that their products will last until the warranty is over or 100K miles. because that's when MOST Americans would dump their cars and buy a new one. in this case, 5w20 is the answer. Is it good enough? sure it's good enough to last until the original warranty, which is 60K miles for powertrain. It's a fact with PROOF, pictures of engines running 5w20 that follows "manufacture's" recommended service interval having wear that does NOT exist in engines running 5w30 or higher.
Another thing about "Mazda Japan Syntheis 0w30 Engine oil", there is nothing special about it, it's just a rebadge of something else and selling it at premium prices. Same thing goes for "Mazda's FL22 Coolant" or any other OE stuff. So are you trying to tell me a Mazda's coolant somehow performs BETTER than any other name brand coolant on the market ? I don't think so. In fact FL22's 55/45 mix have slightly lower coolant capacity than other 50/50 mix coolant.
Mazda is run by humans, we all make mistakes. sure they might know more than what most of us would know. but they can and they DID made stupid *** mistakes in ALL of their production vehicles. Some of them are just too stupid to be considered an "oooops" kind of mistake. All manufacture makes mistake.
mmm sir you might want to check your facts, Mazda Engineers Did want to use 2 Stroke only for their engines, but their MARKETING department saids this will kill the sales. so the engineers have to re-design the oil system and we're forced to use dirty oil. and that's just one of the "this is what we wanted to do but couldn't" thing you said that never happened.
Another thing about "Mazda Japan Syntheis 0w30 Engine oil", there is nothing special about it, it's just a rebadge of something else and selling it at premium prices. Same thing goes for "Mazda's FL22 Coolant" or any other OE stuff. So are you trying to tell me a Mazda's coolant somehow performs BETTER than any other name brand coolant on the market ? I don't think so. In fact FL22's 55/45 mix have slightly lower coolant capacity than other 50/50 mix coolant.
Mazda is run by humans, we all make mistakes. sure they might know more than what most of us would know. but they can and they DID made stupid *** mistakes in ALL of their production vehicles. Some of them are just too stupid to be considered an "oooops" kind of mistake. All manufacture makes mistake.
No manufacturer of anything is going to say "this is what we wanted to do but couldn't".
Last edited by nycgps; 02-24-2012 at 10:58 AM.
02-24-2012, 11:24 AM
#55
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Not to get all deep here, but the troubling thing about even having this conversation (again for the umpteenth time) is that "Mazda's rotary engine failure syndrome", yes let’s call it what it is ... is a set of congenital design weaknesses of the rotary. And they have been popping rotary engines long before the RX-8...RX-7, RX-4, RX-3, RX-2 ...
Theoretically, Mazda has been on the case now for many decades (!), and even they of ultimate knowledge, are still ultimately failing as there is NO new rotary engine Mazda being sold or on the horizon.
Oil is too easy to blame.
*A syndrome is the association of several recognizable features, signs, symptoms, phenomena or characteristics that often occur together, so that the presence of one or more features alerts to the possible presence of the others. A combination of phenomena seen in association. Basterized from Wikipedia.
Theoretically, Mazda has been on the case now for many decades (!), and even they of ultimate knowledge, are still ultimately failing as there is NO new rotary engine Mazda being sold or on the horizon.
Oil is too easy to blame.
*A syndrome is the association of several recognizable features, signs, symptoms, phenomena or characteristics that often occur together, so that the presence of one or more features alerts to the possible presence of the others. A combination of phenomena seen in association. Basterized from Wikipedia.
Last edited by Spin9k; 02-24-2012 at 12:05 PM.
02-24-2012, 11:45 AM
#57
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Here is another of my own personal opinions on why this engine fails so much at random...
It's hand built (with used parts the 2nd go round). Which most would think is better than a machine building it. But a person gets tired, has ruff days, and achieving "perfection" soon turns into "good enough". And it's not like one person builds all the engines, many people do, so one person's "perfection" may be viewed as garbage by standards.
It's hand built (with used parts the 2nd go round). Which most would think is better than a machine building it. But a person gets tired, has ruff days, and achieving "perfection" soon turns into "good enough". And it's not like one person builds all the engines, many people do, so one person's "perfection" may be viewed as garbage by standards.
...Mazda does have a vested financial interest in ensuring your engine gets the lubrication it needs. They back that up with warranty. The want you to buy another Mazda later on. They would not steer you wrong for those 2 reasons alone. Yes they have improved the product. Every manufacturer continues to improve the product as time goes by. Mazda has done that. Unfortunately no company can do better testing than the consumer does.
However, every manufacturer does test their engines for hundreds - if not thousands - of hours before selling the product. They have to. The one thing they cannot do is replicate every possible driving condition every costumer will face in every part of the world.
Still, I imagine the RENESIS went through hundreds of hours of grueling testing, including different oils, different RPM ranges, operational temperatures, etc.
If every person on this forum that has an engine failure can demonstrate they ALL used 5w-20 without exception in all weather conditions; then we could have a more valid argument to prove with a high degree of certainty that such oil is the reason why the RENESIS fails, the why of the abnormal bearing wear, and that Mazda made a historic blunder with their recommended oil just to satisfy US EPA requirements.
02-24-2012, 12:14 PM
#58
I'm gonna say the same thing : most if not all manufacture today will use whatever they can to MAKE SURE that their products will last until the warranty is over or 100K miles. because that's when MOST Americans would dump their cars and buy a new one. in this case, 5w20 is the answer. Is it good enough? sure it's good enough to last until the original warranty, which is 60K miles for powertrain. It's a fact with PROOF, pictures of engines running 5w20 that follows "manufacture's" recommended service interval having wear that does NOT exist in engines running 5w30 or higher.
Another thing about "Mazda Japan Syntheis 0w30 Engine oil", there is nothing special about it, it's just a rebadge of something else and selling it at premium prices. Same thing goes for "Mazda's FL22 Coolant" or any other OE stuff. So are you trying to tell me a Mazda's coolant somehow performs BETTER than any other name brand coolant on the market ? I don't think so. In fact FL22's 55/45 mix have slightly lower coolant capacity than other 50/50 mix coolant.
Mazda is run by humans, we all make mistakes. sure they might know more than what most of us would know. but they can and they DID made stupid *** mistakes in ALL of their production vehicles. Some of them are just too stupid to be considered an "oooops" kind of mistake. All manufacture makes mistake.
mmm sir you might want to check your facts, Mazda Engineers Did want to use 2 Stroke only for their engines, but their MARKETING department saids this will kill the sales. so the engineers have to re-design the oil system and we're forced to use dirty oil. and that's just one of the "this is what we wanted to do but couldn't" thing you said that never happened.
Another thing about "Mazda Japan Syntheis 0w30 Engine oil", there is nothing special about it, it's just a rebadge of something else and selling it at premium prices. Same thing goes for "Mazda's FL22 Coolant" or any other OE stuff. So are you trying to tell me a Mazda's coolant somehow performs BETTER than any other name brand coolant on the market ? I don't think so. In fact FL22's 55/45 mix have slightly lower coolant capacity than other 50/50 mix coolant.
Mazda is run by humans, we all make mistakes. sure they might know more than what most of us would know. but they can and they DID made stupid *** mistakes in ALL of their production vehicles. Some of them are just too stupid to be considered an "oooops" kind of mistake. All manufacture makes mistake.
mmm sir you might want to check your facts, Mazda Engineers Did want to use 2 Stroke only for their engines, but their MARKETING department saids this will kill the sales. so the engineers have to re-design the oil system and we're forced to use dirty oil. and that's just one of the "this is what we wanted to do but couldn't" thing you said that never happened.
02-24-2012, 02:38 PM
#62
Registered
Not to get all deep here, but the troubling thing about even having this conversation (again for the umpteenth time) is that "Mazda's rotary engine failure syndrome", yes let’s call it what it is ... is a set of congenital design weaknesses of the rotary. And they have been popping rotary engines long before the RX-8...RX-7, RX-4, RX-3, RX-2 ...
...Oil is too easy to blame...
...Oil is too easy to blame...
I am impressed that Mazda has been able to deal with that as well as they have. And all alone, versus the whole rest of the industry collectively solving the piston engine's fundamental weaknesses.
Cool engine in a great car. I love the package and uniqueness, and really hope mine lasts forever, but if it doesn't I doubt that it will be the oil's fault.
Ken
02-24-2012, 03:13 PM
#63
The last engine they said they wanted oil change records. I said, look in your computer.
02-24-2012, 05:02 PM
#64
Registered
Not to get all deep here, but the troubling thing about even having this conversation (again for the umpteenth time) is that "Mazda's rotary engine failure syndrome", yes let’s call it what it is ... is a set of congenital design weaknesses of the rotary. And they have been popping rotary engines long before the RX-8...RX-7, RX-4, RX-3, RX-2 ...
Oil is too easy to blame.
Oil is too easy to blame.
However, I am not against having this conversation over and over again. It's the same drama in pretty much every other car forum I belong
There's a fundamental weakness in the seals being straight, with separate apex and side pieces, needing springs under them, and having to go across spark plug holes and/or ports every time around. Compare that to a piston engine, where the seals are circular and self-springing, and only rub along smooth cylinder bores.
I am impressed that Mazda has been able to deal with that as well as they have. And all alone, versus the whole rest of the industry collectively solving the piston engine's fundamental weaknesses.
Cool engine in a great car. I love the package and uniqueness, and really hope mine lasts forever, but if it doesn't I doubt that it will be the oil's fault.
Ken
I am impressed that Mazda has been able to deal with that as well as they have. And all alone, versus the whole rest of the industry collectively solving the piston engine's fundamental weaknesses.
Cool engine in a great car. I love the package and uniqueness, and really hope mine lasts forever, but if it doesn't I doubt that it will be the oil's fault.
Ken
I've been under the impression that the renesis was the most refined version of all rotary engines in terms of seal design and performance
The oil at that time was changed by the Mazda dealer. So, it was 5W-20 or 5W-30. I don't know. Not that it matters because they failed due to either low compression or coolant leaking into the chamber. Not due to bearing damage. Heavier weight oil isn't going to help with compression problems.
The last engine they said they wanted oil change records. I said, look in your computer.
The last engine they said they wanted oil change records. I said, look in your computer.
That's interesting, and it helps me understand and confirm some of my own assumptions better. I do not mind people arguing about dyno vs synthetic oil over and over again.
What troubles me the most on this forum is people implying that oil weight (in the 5w-20 recommended by Mazda) is the leading cause for engine failures, or low engine life
But as you said, most engine failures seem related to low compression which has little or nothing to do with oil weight.
02-24-2012, 05:04 PM
#65
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Correct. Oil weight pretty much only affects bearing wear, and having an engine fail due to bearing wear is rare.
Coolant seal failure, side seal failure, or apex seal wear are the main causes. Oil weight and type have nothing to do with these.
Coolant seal failure, side seal failure, or apex seal wear are the main causes. Oil weight and type have nothing to do with these.
02-24-2012, 05:09 PM
#66
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In fact, the one negative aspect I can see about using 5w-20 and its potential to induce abnormal bearing wear, would be the added expense of replacing those parts during a rebuild.
Last edited by pistonhater; 02-24-2012 at 05:13 PM.
02-24-2012, 05:20 PM
#68
Can you please steer me to the information that refers to "the engineers wanted to use 2 stroke oil but were told it was a poor marketing idea". Then I will have the information you have but maybe not the facts depending on your references. I would also like to see where you think Mazda 0W30 is just some body elses product that is relabeled. You have no proof of this. It is just your belief, not fact based. I work with a large oil company for our lubrication needs (Petro Canada). they make oil for other companies with additive packages requested by those other companies. All their oil is not the same as the other. Not even close. They will do whatever any company asks them to do.
As for the oil, hah! Since when did mazda make their own oil? Ur logic already failed. And in case u dont know **** re-badging is actually quite common for mazda, their intake, their cat back exhaust. Etc.
if what u are saying is true then there will be no aftermarket products at all, Simply because according to ur logic, nothing works as good as oe then why anybody would even bother?
As a matter of fact, im trying to get 4L of the mazda syntheic oil back into the state this year, i will then send it out for a test. Lets see if its really all that special.
, awesome
02-25-2012, 01:58 PM
#74
LOL..
OK.. 0w-40 or 5w-40, which ever one is easily available... Synthetic or Regular?
To be honest, with my new engine(non boosted), I've been using 5w-30 regular... The previous engine (none boosted) that lost power due to low compression after 56k miles always had 5w-20.. So far, I've had a little over 10k miles on regular 5w30 and I add about a quart every 1k miles or so... I also try to change my oil at the 3k miles mark...
Costco always has Valvoline 5w30 regular oil for a fair price in a box of 12 quarts.. Good for 3 oil changes..
Just wondering if we can benefit from Synthetic, contrary from what the dealership or what Mazda "is saying"...
Thanks,
Mark
OK.. 0w-40 or 5w-40, which ever one is easily available... Synthetic or Regular?
To be honest, with my new engine(non boosted), I've been using 5w-30 regular... The previous engine (none boosted) that lost power due to low compression after 56k miles always had 5w-20.. So far, I've had a little over 10k miles on regular 5w30 and I add about a quart every 1k miles or so... I also try to change my oil at the 3k miles mark...
Costco always has Valvoline 5w30 regular oil for a fair price in a box of 12 quarts.. Good for 3 oil changes..
Just wondering if we can benefit from Synthetic, contrary from what the dealership or what Mazda "is saying"...
Thanks,
Mark
