Since the car, even today, is still advertised with much higher HP then anyone on this forum would say the get, why hasnt anyone sued Mazda for false advertising?

Seems to make sence unless that the HP being advertised can not legaly be promised, inwhich case, why didnt mazda just say the car has 500hp.

Youd spend more money proving your point than youd get out of the suit... at least thats what I would think going up against MNAO.

If it was a class action law suit, all you would need to do is put the car on a few dynos and present the court with the results.

if you would like to buy an engine dyno (not chassis) and buy about 10-15 engines, buy all the adapters needed to hook up the engine, find a way to fake all the various sensors out to let the stock PCM function correctly, and then perform a series of tests according to SAE guidelines and witnessed by an SAE certied person so you can claim to have valid data.... then go ahead and try it!

not everyone has the same method for getting hp numbers as well... at some point when designing and building the car, they managed a constant 232 hp rating.. whether it had the exhaust off or what may be the case..
look at the new Shelby Mustang.. advertise 500 hp, but only puts 420-430rwhp... Hmm.. ..odd..

500 crank HP is what they claim, which would be about 430-440whp... so the mustangs claims arent far off.
As for the RX8, Skip is probably right. They must have been running with no exhaust or something, some trick to get a consistant 232hp, because we all know this car isnt capable of that without full bolt ons and new ECU, even then Id think it would be a stretch.

If the fat girls didnt win against McDonalds for making them fat then we will never win against Mazda for making us slow... lol.

bhp is not the same as whp..

i've seen my car do 180hp on a dyno all stock when it was 103f out and having traction control/misfire issues. i know on a 70f day it would touch 190-200 whp. easily putting it at the 232+ crank number.

Claming 232bhp and putting down 190rwhp isn't that bad. Thats around 18% drivetrain loss, which isn't bad at all.


And yes, base models without traction control/DSC dyno around 190rwhp.



BTW: From the photos I've seen, Mazda runs the engine on test benches with FULL electronics and mechanics. As in, they bolt up a FULL exhaust, cats, mufflers and all, and run complete engine control with sensors and everything. No fakes there, folks.


The way the engine revs, I wouldn't think 18% drivetrain loss is unfathomable. I'm not sure if the big/heavy rims have any impact on that, do they?

here is a fun read for you. make sure your read the whole thing

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=65126&highlight=math

also on the testing and certification

http://www.sae.org/certifiedpower/
http://www.sae.org/certifiedpower/details.htm
http://www.sae.org/certifiedpower/witnesses.htm

bhp is not the same as whp..
i know.. iwasnt making claim that it was... but ive read and hear numours reports of lower RWHP out the gt500 then waht is advertised.. like 420-430 rwhp..that would only put them aorun the 470-480 mark no?

Claming 232bhp and putting down 190rwhp isn't that bad. Thats around 18% drivetrain loss, which isn't bad at all.


And yes, base models without traction control/DSC dyno around 190rwhp.




erp? Very few stock rx8's dyno at 190whp. Most are 170-180, with the occasional factory freak at 185-190.

Honda claims 240hp, and putts down 210-220whp w/ the s2000.

:(

if you would like to buy an engine dyno (not chassis) and buy about 10-15 engines, buy all the adapters needed to hook up the engine, find a way to fake all the various sensors out to let the stock PCM function correctly, and then perform a series of tests according to SAE guidelines and witnessed by an SAE certied person so you can claim to have valid data.... then go ahead and try it!
Good point!

Weather its BS or not, nobody here can prove its not true.

Yes, typical wheel hp dyno’s show 8s averaging 175-185hp, that’s more than a 20% drivetrain loss, which is higher than the norm. But mazda has already gone on record saying that a wheel hp dyno won’t record correct figures on the 8. They say (though I’m not convinced) that even with TCS & DSC turned off, that the wheel hp dyno’s will always cause the engine management computer to retard power to minimize heat build up/protect the cat/yada yada. May be a bunch of BS, but prove them wrong. With the rotary always having well known heat issues, I’m inclined to believe them.

Didn't one guy on here put a reneses on an engine dyno and concluded that is was making closer to 220hp? Either way, that only concludes that ONE motor is making 220hp.

What I know is that I bought a 3000 pound that should be capable of 6 sec. 0-60, mid 14 ¼’s and 148MPH top speeds. That seems like 232 hp to me. My last car weighed about the same and had 210hp, and the 8 feels much more powerful. But either way, these are mediocre times in this performance age, as is 232hp.

i know.. iwasnt making claim that it was... but ive read and hear numours reports of lower RWHP out the gt500 then waht is advertised.. like 420-430 rwhp..that would only put them aorun the 470-480 mark no?

no because you do not know the specifc drivetrain loss. ther isa only one way to find what a GT500 should put down at the wheels. take a bunch of engines and run them using the new SAE standard from my above links. now you know the BHP. Take those engines and put them in the cars and then run them on a specific type of chasis dyno that everyone has agreed to in the first place. now you have wheel hp. thats the only way to judge. everyone can assume whtever percentage or specific number of HP lost thru the drivetrain- 7hp? 17% 20hp? 20%?- that they want to but until you go thru the paces everyone is just speculatiing.

So why are people complaining that the RX8 only gets 180whp when we should be getting the rated 232hp. There are 100 threads with this being a complaint. If it cant be proven in a court of law, then it must not be true.

Note: If Mazda tests the car in a different configuration and sells it at 232hp, under another configuration, thats against the law.

because they dotn understand the difference between advertised SAE engine power and whp for one. and you dont seem to either.

i know.. iwasnt making claim that it was... but ive read and hear numours reports of lower RWHP out the gt500 then waht is advertised.. like 420-430 rwhp..that would only put them aorun the 470-480 mark no?


I too think Ford's numbers are iffy...How a car with 100 more hp (GT500) than a C6 can trap at the same-or-slower speed? Gearing shouldn't be THAT different.

i know.. iwasnt making claim that it was... but ive read and hear numours reports of lower RWHP out the gt500 then waht is advertised.. like 420-430 rwhp..that would only put them aorun the 470-480 mark no?


500bhp * .85 efficiency(15% drivetrain loss) = 425whp

Linked to a sticky. Nice work. :doh:

I too think Ford's numbers are iffy...How a car with 100 more hp (GT500) than a C6 can trap at the same-or-slower speed? Gearing shouldn't be THAT different.


Weight, gearing and aerodynamics play a big role.

I too think Ford's numbers are iffy...How a car with 100 more hp (GT500) than a C6 can trap at the same-or-slower speed? Gearing shouldn't be THAT different.

weight, gearing, engine personality, it might make all it's power at the top end and the other has low end grunt. low end torque moves a car faster than a big hp number on the dyno. it can be lots of things.

I too think Ford's numbers are iffy...How a car with 100 more hp (GT500) than a C6 can trap at the same-or-slower speed? Gearing shouldn't be THAT different.


Uh, horsepower isn't everything, dude.


The GT500 is FAT AS HELL.

Curb weight: 3920

C6 Z06 curb weight: 3130

its better to compare the GT500 against a M6 since they both have reportedly 500 hp and both reportedly weigh about 4000 lbs. The M6 is significanlt faster in most tests which means BMW is underated, Ford is overated, or more then likely the .4 vs .3 coefficient of drag is a huge difference (and it is)

From a legal standpoint, advertising doesn't have to be literally true. It just can't be deceptive. The circus advertises "the greatest show on earth" although you can make a case that it's not. If Mazda ran tests on engines that produced the advertised HP using scientifically accepted testing procedures, they can use those numbers even if your particular car doesn't deliver. Consumer backlash, which is what is being discussed here, is another matter.

I still woulda bought it, even if they advertised 180 whp :)

From a legal standpoint, advertising doesn't have to be literally true. It just can't be deceptive. The circus advertises "the greatest show on earth" although you can make a case that it's not. If Mazda ran tests on engines that produced the advertised HP using scientifically accepted testing procedures, they can use those numbers even if your particular car doesn't deliver. Consumer backlash, which is what is being discussed here, is another matter.


You're talking about what's known as "puffing," as in "The Best Hamburger's This Side of the Mississippi!!!"

But cold, hard data, especially the kind a buyer relies or depends on when making a purchase, has to be accurate.

Of course, there's the whole issue of damages, and how they're calculated based on factual misrepresentations, but that's a whole other can of worms.

I have a feeling a class action lawsuit against Mazda would would end in favor of the consumers. Then all owners of the RX-8 would get a big ol' $150 check in the mail... Is that worth it, depends on your perspective and if you'd be doing it for money or personal satisfaction. I can guarantee you your resale value the day Mazda loses will drop a hell of a lot more than $150.

For most 8 owners, the car has MORE than enough power. Uh, can you say… "moot point"?

The GT500 is SAE certified at 500hp. The certification process is fairly rigorous. Shame the car is such a porker.

Hopefully Mazda will start publishing SAE numbers with new models. As for a lawsuit, since Mazda already ate crow on the HP numbers once, I would bet that they've cover their butts on the new number pretty well.

I notice the new models say 232. I assume that was a tuning tweak?

To me, its not rev or horsepower - its the ratio of revs to wheel rotations - how many times does the rotar have to run around before the wheel turns over..
does it have enough power to turn the wheel around to go 60, 80, or whatever miles per hours, uphill if you have 1000 pounds of load inside the car - Now this information, to my micro mind, would make more sense, than how fast the engine can spin without a load - also how much power is lost though the transmission, especially on a hill? This is important because it will give some idea about how much energy must be lost as heat instead of work! I would like to see some number crunching on this...

Then get crunching

I have a feeling a class action lawsuit against Mazda would would end in favor of the consumers. Then all owners of the RX-8 would get a big ol' $150 check in the mail... Is that worth it, depends on your perspective and if you'd be doing it for money or personal satisfaction. I can guarantee you your resale value the day Mazda loses will drop a hell of a lot more than $150.



I have to agree with you here, Ike. Class action law suits dont do anything except make a lawyer rich.

The GT500 is SAE certified at 500hp. The certification process is fairly rigorous. Shame the car is such a porker.

Hopefully Mazda will start publishing SAE numbers with new models. As for a lawsuit, since Mazda already ate crow on the HP numbers once, I would bet that they've cover their butts on the new number pretty well.

I notice the new models say 232. I assume that was a tuning tweak?

232hp IS the SAE number. Remember that it used to be 238.

It's already been certified by the new rigorous SAE system to have 232 bhp and yet the pissing contest on this board still goes on.

Forget all this, from now on I'm going to advertise my car as having 1000 bhp (brake hamster power).

Since the car, even today, is still advertised with much higher HP then anyone on this forum would say the get, why hasnt anyone sued Mazda for false advertising?

Seems to make sence unless that the HP being advertised can not legaly be promised, inwhich case, why didnt mazda just say the car has 500hp.

i worked for mazda as a salesman in 2003. The 8 had just arrived with hp numbers rating 247hp. in about 3 or 4 months mazda had to change the nunbers from 247 to 238hp. Mazda sent letters to all buyers who bought before the horsepower change, a full refund(including dealer mark-up) or a 4 year extended warrenty. i dont know of anything else after that.

Since the car, even today, is still advertised with much higher HP then anyone on this forum would say the get, why hasnt anyone sued Mazda for false advertising?

Seems to make sence unless that the HP being advertised can not legaly be promised, inwhich case, why didnt mazda just say the car has 500hp.

Yeah... a Lotus Elise has less HP advertised and will beat the 8 in acceleration, etc. So what is the big deal?


Sometimes HP is irrelevant. Just be happy with the 8

i worked for mazda as a salesman in 2003. The 8 had just arrived with hp numbers rating 247hp. in about 3 or 4 months mazda had to change the nunbers from 247 to 238hp. Mazda sent letters to all buyers who bought before the horsepower change, a full refund(including dealer mark-up) or a 4 year extended warrenty. i dont know of anything else after that.

and you didnt even get that right- salesman :rolleyes:

they offered to buy back your car (got that part right) OR (and here is where you went wrong) if you kept the car they would give you $500 dollars (in the form of a debit card usable anywhere) plus give you free factory scheduled maintenance for the life of your warranty.


there was no warranty extension for the HP re-statement.

I have to agree with you here, Ike. Class action law suits dont do anything except make a lawyer rich.
Any class action settlement that I've gotten consisted of a coupon - no cash. Lawyers took all the cash.

Any class action settlement that I've gotten consisted of a coupon

Sweet! My sunday paper is FULL of class action lawsuits!!

:crying: :crying: :crying:

You may have a point, but unless you bought your car in 2003 you hav enothing to complain about.

And even then it is questionable since they offered you to but the car back.

But I love crying anyways.. so........ :crying: :crying: :crying:

I like this thread.

Sincerly,

8CRYBBY

Youd spend more money proving your point than youd get out of the suit... at least thats what I would think going up against MNAO.
Not with a class action law suite ;)

A class action lawsuit would make the 8s rep even more tarnished thus affecting our resale more.
BUT perhaps threatening Mazda with a lawsuit would teach them not to keep overstating hp in the future. I mean to have you vehicles power restated 3 times and still have people wonder about the hp makes one look bad.

I know for myself, if there is one more restatement of the RX8s hp than resale or not, I would look for a buyback, class action, something.

Quick scenario. IF THE RX8S ENGINE WAS RESTATED AT 220 HP TODAY, WHAT WOULD YOU EXPECT FROM MAZDA OR DO TO MAZDA? PLEASE, PLEASE BE HONEST!

far as i know, they only changed the numbers once. and they offered buybacks and incentives for people who bought before the numbers were changed.

after that the hp numbers were changed for all cars when the ratings system changed, it wasn't due to anything mazda did.

far as i know, they only changed the numbers once. and they offered buybacks and incentives for people who bought before the numbers were changed.

after that the hp numbers were changed for all cars when the ratings system changed, it wasn't due to anything mazda did.

250-247-232-?

That's 3 times. Even if one was from a outside source. Mazda has taken the last number as its rating.

250 was never a real number. it was never on the window sticker so cant count it. (but it wa son a brochure blah blah blah- it was never th enumber that any car EVER hit the dealerships with on its sticker)

247 to 238 is once.

then they changed to a new standard and under that standard it is 232. thats not a second re-statement. of course we can argue that for years- and we already have

250 was never a real number. it was never on the window sticker so cant count it. (but it wa son a brochure blah blah blah- it was never th enumber that any car EVER hit the dealerships with on its sticker)

247 to 238 is once.

then they changed to a new standard and under that standard it is 232. thats not a second re-statement. of course we can argue that for years- and we already have

NO 250-247-232 is 3. Just because they lowered it before you first purchased it doesn't mean that they didn't originally state it. I had Mazda's brochure before I purchase the 8 and it stated 250 hp. The fact that Mazda didn't fight the SAE rating but went with it in all brochures says they agree, thus another restating og power. Mazda could've just disregarded the SAE rating citing, we don't agree, they didn't test right, blah blah blah and still printed and advertised 238 hp. They won't go up against SAE. Is 232 really what SAE got. Maybe they got less.

250 was the estimated HP. Defined here (http://webster.com/dictionary/estimate) But just in case you're lazy - here's the important part:

2 a : to judge tentatively or approximately the value, worth, or significance of b : to determine roughly the size, extent, or nature of

247 was the actual HP declared by Mazda. That's one, for those counting.

238 was the "oops - our bad" # given by Mazda w/a buy back option.

232 is based on a new calculation, which lead to an industry wide change.

Get over it.

NO 250-247-232 is 3. .... I had Mazda's brochure

even if we go with your numbers that would only be 2 changes as you have written it not 3. and we cant use your numbers especially since you have used the brochure arguement again even though i pointed out you cant use it in my previous post

Why the two hp figures for the RX8? 212 for A/T and 232 for M/T. No other car reports two different ratings for different transmissions that I am aware of.

even if we go with your numbers that would only be 2 changes as you have written it not 3. and we cant use your numbers especially since you have used the brochure arguement again even though i pointed out you cant use it in my previous post

YOU CAN USE THE BROCHURE! MAZDA CLAIMED IT, PRINTED IT, AND RELEASED IT TO THE PUBLIC! JUST BECAUSE IT WAS RERATED BEFORE I PURCHASED IT DOESN'T MEAN IT WASN'T RERATED. WHAT DON'T YOU GET MAN! MAZDA ALSO CLAIMED 250 IN THEIR PRESS RELEASES AND ALL OF THEIR MAGAZINE ADS. I NEVER SAID OUR CARS WERE RATED AT 250 HP BUT THAT THE RX8 WAS ORIGINALLY RATED AT 250 HP.

250-247 1!
247-238 2!

SAE STANDARDS SAY RX8 MAKES 232 HP. MAZDA TAKES THIS #, DECIDES TO PLACE ON STICKER, ON CURRENT ADS ETC.

238-232 3!

IF WE GO WITH WHAT RACING BEAT GOT (THE MOST REPUTABLE ROTARY TUNER),
WE WOULD BE AT AROUND 220 HP.

250 was the estimated HP. Defined here (http://webster.com/dictionary/estimate) But just in case you're lazy - here's the important part:

2 a : to judge tentatively or approximately the value, worth, or significance of b : to determine roughly the size, extent, or nature of

247 was the actual HP declared by Mazda. That's one, for those counting.

238 was the "oops - our bad" # given by Mazda w/a buy back option.

232 is based on a new calculation, which lead to an industry wide change.

Get over it.

MAZDA'S ADS NEVER SAID ESTIMATED HP. YOU GET OVER IT.

my car makes more than 250.

You get over it, and quit being a jealous crossfire loving all caps typer.

TALANZ try this example, as an art director it should make more sense.

You start with a piece of paper oh say 30 cm long, and then cut off 2 cm (that's ONE change) so now you've got a piece of paper 28 cm long.

This is an analogy for the restatement of the 8's HP AS IT WAS SOLD in '03 (I have my window sticker and it says 247 hp NOT 250 hp). I saw it and paid my money. Nothing changed as I stared at it and had the option of not buying it. But with the restaement is did in fact shrink to 238. I took the money and service option.

OK, then let's say the government announces everything is now to be measured in inches, not cms, so OK now the EXACT SAME piece of paper is said to be 11 inches long rather than 28 cm.

This is the analogy for the 238 to 232 hp rating. Absolutely nothing changes. The paper stays the same. The LABEL changes. The measurement metric changes.

So ONE change..... make sense?

my car makes more than 250.

You get over it, and quit being a jealous crossfire loving all caps typer.

Crossfire? What the heck are you talking about?

Why the two hp figures for the RX8? 212 for A/T and 232 for M/T. No other car reports two different ratings for different transmissions that I am aware of.


4port vs 6port engines. one has more power than the other. its almost like having a 4cyl and a 6cyl option

4port vs 6port engines. one has more power than the other. its almost like having a 4cyl and a 6cyl option

The 4-port/6-port thing makes sense.......for some reason I thought the '06/'07 had 6-port engines in both A/T and M/T versions.

TALANZ try this example, as an art director it should make more sense.

You start with a piece of paper oh say 30 cm long, and then cut off 2 cm (that's ONE change) so now you've got a piece of paper 28 cm long.

This is an analogy for the restatement of the 8's HP AS IT WAS SOLD in '03 (I have my window sticker and it says 247 hp NOT 250 hp). I saw it and paid my money. Nothing changed as I stared at it and had the option of not buying it. But with the restaement is did in fact shrink to 238. I took the money and service option.

OK, then let's say the government announces everything is now to be measured in inches, not cms, so OK now the EXACT SAME piece of paper is said to be 11 inches long rather than 28 cm.

This is the analogy for the 238 to 232 hp rating. Absolutely nothing changes. The paper stays the same. The LABEL changes. The measurement metric changes.

So ONE change..... make sense?

Before you purchased your 8 it was restated or if you prefer corected to 247 from 250.

Your measurment argument doesn't hold up due to the fact that some cars hp went up as others went down. The new measurment was what was considered a more true to life measurment. It wasn't a matter of every piece of paper going from 11 inches to 28 cm, some went up testifying that some engines were making more hp than claimed while others made less.

The 4-port/6-port thing makes sense.......for some reason I thought the '06/'07 had 6-port engines in both A/T and M/T versions.

they do and the difference in HP there resides in the torque converter not being able to process higher than 7.5 k rpm

Your measurment argument doesn't hold up due to the fact that some cars hp went up as others went down. The new measurment was what was considered a more true to life measurment. It wasn't a matter of every piece of paper going from 11 inches to 28 cm, some went up testifying that some engines were making more hp than claimed while others made less.

You are 100% correct. Bad analogy.

Mazda offered to buy back cars or give some cash back/extend warranties. 232 hp still seems a bit on the high side, but it's not that far off (maybe it's really closer to 220... I really don't give a crap). Anyone who doesn't research and test-drive a car has no one to blame but themselves.
erp? Very few stock rx8's dyno at 190whp. Most are 170-180, with the occasional factory freak at 185-190.

Honda claims 240hp, and putts down 210-220whp w/ the s2000.

:(
Actually, early S2ks often dynoed around 180-190. The 2.0L later started getting around 200. The 2.2L S2k is underrated.

Most early RX8s were in the 170-180 range, but my understanding is that with flashes most are now in the 185-190 range (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Also, I've read of Japanese spec RX8s dynoing at 200-205.

For purposes of comparison, the 197 hp 2.0L from the FWD RSX/Civic Si dynos around 162 hp (from the ones I've seen). Also, the 170 hp MX5 dynos around 135 rwhp.

The numbers are meaningless drivel. If you test drove it, you know how much power the car has. If you didn't test drive it, you're stupid.

SAE STANDARDS SAY RX8 MAKES 232 HP. MAZDA TAKES THIS #, DECIDES TO PLACE ON STICKER, ON CURRENT ADS ETC.



The SAE standards only standardized the way that the engines are tested. It's not like your car magically lost 6 HP. Plenty of car makers used to test liberally to increase the claimed horsepower, and plenty were more conservative.

This is entirely different than the horsepower restatement to 238 HP, where Mazda actually changed ECU programming, and the power made by the engine. This is simply a change in the testing rules that resulted in a smaller number.

Apples and oranges.

The new SAE horsepower standard requires the engine to be tested with all accessories running (i.e., alternator, water pump, pulleys, etc.). Kind of in an "as delivered" configuration. Under the old standard (which wasn't really much of a standard), manufacturers could test the engine any way they wanted and some did it without the accessories attached. Some even shorted the engine oil to reduce internal mechanical drag. As an example, the Toyota Camry went from 210HP under the old standard to 190 with the new.

A class action lawsuit would make the 8s rep even more tarnished thus affecting our resale more.
BUT perhaps threatening Mazda with a lawsuit would teach them not to keep overstating hp in the future. I mean to have you vehicles power restated 3 times and still have people wonder about the hp makes one look bad.

I know for myself, if there is one more restatement of the RX8s hp than resale or not, I would look for a buyback, class action, something.

Quick scenario. IF THE RX8S ENGINE WAS RESTATED AT 220 HP TODAY, WHAT WOULD YOU EXPECT FROM MAZDA OR DO TO MAZDA? PLEASE, PLEASE BE HONEST!



I've said it several times already I will say it again. A class action lawsuit doesn't do anything but make a lawyer rich. The actual plantifs never make out like they thought they were going to. By the time it is all over with you are left with such an insignifigant slice of the pie you are hungrier than when you started wasting your energy of the whole deal. You car didn't lose any power since the day you got it. What does it matter what SAE or MNAO or some half retarded kid down the block says what your power is? Get in the car, turn it on, apply force to the throttle. That is how much power you have. It is the same as day one. If you are that much of a dyno queen you should sell your car right now and go buy a mustang. Regardless of the number your car still performs the exact same way as when you bought it. Rate the damn thing at 10hp for all I care, I would still be just as interested in the car because it still does the exact same thing.


Boo fucking who you penis is just that much shorter at the watercooler.

The numbers are meaningless drivel. If you test drove it, you know how much power the car has. If you didn't test drive it, you're stupid.Good point.

I read many reviews on the RX-8, test drove it, liked the feel and performance and wrote a check. Before I even walked into the showroom or talked with a salesman I already knew that the MT RX-8 was capable of ~5.9 second 0-60 times and ~14.5 second @ ~95 MPH 1/4 mile times. I also knew that these figures were achieved by professional drivers who weren't worried about abusing the clutch, etc., so realistic owner-driver performance would be a bit less.

Fortunately, my 8 can't read and is not bipolar, so no matter what the stated/actual/advertised HP is, my 8 will still perform as it always has.

1.3L

...Boo fucking who you penis is just that much shorter at the watercooler.Er, once more in English?

I've said it several times already I will say it again. A class action lawsuit doesn't do anything but make a lawyer rich. The actual plantifs never make out like they thought they were going to. By the time it is all over with you are left with such an insignifigant slice of the pie you are hungrier than when you started wasting your energy of the whole deal. You car didn't lose any power since the day you got it. What does it matter what SAE or MNAO or some half retarded kid down the block says what your power is? Get in the car, turn it on, apply force to the throttle. That is how much power you have. It is the same as day one. If you are that much of a dyno queen you should sell your car right now and go buy a mustang. Regardless of the number your car still performs the exact same way as when you bought it. Rate the damn thing at 10hp for all I care, I would still be just as interested in the car because it still does the exact same thing.


Boo fucking who you penis is just that much shorter at the watercooler.


I couldn't agree more. Especially that some of you are complaining 3 years after the fact. If in 2003 Mazda had published 5.5 for 0-60, I would understand, how that might have influenced a purchase decision and then make the owner mad not being able to beat a 350Z. But that's not what we're talking about, and hp-s have never been as straightforward numbers as seconds are anyway.

But all you guys with the obsession for hp numbers, please keep up the discussion, it is so entertaining to read the comments, seriously:) One of the funniest threads.

For purposes of comparison, the 197 hp 2.0L from the FWD RSX/Civic Si dynos around 162 hp (from the ones I've seen). Also, the 170 hp MX5 dynos around 135 rwhp.

Also for comparison then:

the 197hp 4port Rx-8 dynos at 135-145hp.

Mazda is covering their butt by tweaking their numbers lower and lower. From 250 HP to 232 HP… I’m sure Mazda lawyers would cover you in so much paper work and red tape that suing them would be a huge and long process. Plus, Mazda, is smart enough to keep it “close” with their “new numbers”. Meaning if they tell people 232 HP and you test it an its more like 222 HP to 227 HP, than how are you going to win the court battle? The true numbers would be too close to the allowable margin of error for you to win. Like it was said, you would then need to start testing huge number of RX-8 to put together a decent legal argument and who has the time and money to do that?

I think the time and money is better served with pushing Mazda’s lazy butt to come out with a MazdaSpeed RX-8 and/or “upgrade” supercharger kit that has a Mazda warranty. Then you can get you HP back and some more…

Tonight on the History Channel: Whiners and the Women who Woo them.

All I know is 238hp never felt so slow!!!

All I know is 238hp never felt so slow!!!

That's because of the tourqe not hp.
I think that is what a lot of people do not relize, its the low tourqe that makes it feel so slow, tourqe is what gives the go off the line not hp, my 91 fc has a lot less hp than the 8 and I can make that bitch fly just use the tach.

The differences in whp and advertised hp is most likely due mainly to the ECU, other factors are the usual factors of dyno, operator, day, temp, state of tune, knowledge of the car you are running on the dyno, etc.

And Mazda is not falsely advertising numbers the reason they dropped was SAE testing, which before hand every maker used a different method to determine hp, a lot of cars lost rating some only 5 others as much as 30, so everyone get over this whining.

The numbers are meaningless drivel. If you test drove it, you know how much power the car has. If you didn't test drive it, you're stupid.
Beat me to it...

Worth the read ;)

I would like to know, statistically speaking, what the correct distance from mean is allowed. The hp number must compiled through means of normal distribution, standard deviation, and z-score. My guess is that the SAE standards allow a certain variability with 232 lying smack at the top of the probability. This means that the highest possible output would be 232 with a range below it considered acceptable.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v600/tiltmode43/sd8.gif
Lets just make up some examples to illustrate the idea (red shaded is the acceptable). Standard deviation is a standardized rating based off of the mean in a normal distribution. For our example we'll say 232hp is the top of the allowed ratings. Now, Mazda has some wiggle room as far as numbers, a range of acceptability (nothing mass produced has exactly the same product). We'll use standard deviations of -.15 and .15 This means that any number falling within this range is acceptable. If 232 is the top (.15 standard deviations away from the mean), the bottom (-.15 standard deviations away from the mean) would be 212 crank with a mean of 222. This would mean the bottom of the range would be about 169.6-180.2 whp and the top of the range would be 185.6-197.2whp and average (mean) would be about 177.6-188.7 (data calculated using 20-15% tranny loss respectively). With these calculations, our hp numbers are viable, some members at the top, some at the bottom but none outside of those limits.

Now, .15 standard deviations from the mean is just a guess, if the true number from SAE standards can be found we can determine what our cars should be making. Mazda/SAE both must have this number (z-score) to determine viable product output. With this in mind our dead average (mean/middle) is about 183.1whp. If any sort of lawsuite were to begin to take place, Mazda would simply throw the statistical data at us and the prosecutor would be shot down (any good lawyer wouldn't take the case because of this). Once again, if anyone can find the correct z-score from the SAE people we can calculate true acceptability.

Looks like our cars are making the propper whp as stated by Mazda/SAE after all :Freak_ani

For most 8 owners, the car has MORE than enough power.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know that? Was there a poll of all 8 owners worldwide? I've never heard journalists saying the rx8 has "MORE than enough" power. A few owners? Sure. But most 8 owners? I don't think so. :nono:

Heh, just giving you a hard time New Yorker :mdrmed:, if we are to critisize others we must be more careful with our own words :)

Good job zoom, your response about the difference between bhp and whp shut the mouth of the original thread starter lol.

this thread is getting really ugly... who evers complaining about the low whp of the rx8, i would just say trade in your car for a 350z or something if hp is your number one issue. J-spec makes more whp due to lower emission standards in the far east compared to the US. Stated hp by mazda is also not whp, its the hp from the engine without the load of the body and drivetrain loss (i believe, correct me if i'm wrong).

if people keep on complaining about the so called "power loss" of the 8, just trade in your car for a 350z or m3 or something so you can compensate for something... b/c hp is such a big issue.. :)

Side note, i didnt buy the car for the hp, i bought the car for the style, the rotary engine and the suspension/handling

Here's the thing, I have owned over 15 rotary powered cars in my 12 years of driving. The excitement for this RX-8 was there. However, nothing is right with this car. Wrong horsepower ratings from day one, blown motors, transmissions, and Mazda doesn't seem to care. I bought my RX-8 to keep forever, and now the numbers will never match. Mazda sucks and so does this RX-8! :mad:

Hmm...rawr! Rx-8 sux0rz bleeh

I have had zero problems with my car, with the exception of squeeky brakes which was fixed with the TSB. My engine is fine...my transmission is fine.

Lawyers are the only ones that win with Class Actions. All we will get is a $500 coupon on our next Mazda. As for your points Mazda offered buybacks / free service for the HP issue. My 5/2003 build with 76,000 still has the org motor & trans and runs great. Don't like your 8 go sell it, I will continue to enjoy mine.

I'll bet we get more owners with problems than without. I haven't had any problems with my 8 yet either. But, you should question why mazda has offered additional warranty and have had major problems with this model. Also why haven't they changed the 8 yet? 4 years is a long time for a car that has had major issues. Don't get me wrong I love the car, but I want something worth money in 15 years.

You haven't had problems with your 8 yet you want to start a class action lawsuit?

Wow...some people's children.

How about some cheese with that whine!

Drive the dang car and enjoy it!

I'll bet we get more owners with problems than without. I haven't had any problems with my 8 yet either...Don't get me wrong I love the car, but I want something worth money in 15 years.

What car would you purchase expecting it to be worth money in 15 years?

And you have had zero problems? I have no idea what you're complaining about. Mazda gave extended our warranties and you're upset about this? You purchased the car with the power levels it had, so what do you care?

Seriously, what other rotary vehicles have you owned that you are so worked-up about an RX-8 that has been flawless?

I want something worth money in 15 years.


Buy a house.

You guy's don't know what problems really are. You should have owned a 1993 Rx7 from brand new. With the damn vacuum line situation where the blow off and only one turbo works to the 5th gear syncro.

For a guy that owned 15 rotaries (I have you beat in that area) you should stop crying and thanking mazda for building such a nice car.

I've been spending some time on this forum and in my honest opinion, some rx8 owners are the biggest bitches, some really don't deserve this car. For you, to want to start a class action lawsuit is just crazy since you never had any problems.

Sometimes these forums do more harm that good. It makes a guy that never had any problems hate his car so much to start a class action lawsuit, freakin pathetic. If you don't like it, sell it and get that altima you so much deserve.

Anthony

I'll bet we get more owners with problems than without. I haven't had any problems with my 8 yet either. But, you should question why mazda has offered additional warranty and have had major problems with this model. Also why haven't they changed the 8 yet? 4 years is a long time for a car that has had major issues. Don't get me wrong I love the car, but I want something worth money in 15 years.

If you haven't had any problems with your car, what exactly is *your* problem?

You say there will be more owners with problems than without. Let's start a tally. Since you say you've had no problems, we'll put you down for "without." Score is now 0-1. That puts you behind.

Ken

good time to close this thread. i think ill just close any other that starts at the outset from now on.

You guy's don't know what problems really are. You should have owned a 1993 Rx7 from brand new. With the damn vacuum line situation where the blow off and only one turbo works to the 5th gear syncro.

For a guy that owned 15 rotaries (I have you beat in that area) you should stop crying and thanking mazda for building such a nice car.

I've been spending some time on this forum and in my honest opinion, some rx8 owners are the biggest bitches, some really don't deserve this car. For you, to want to start a class action lawsuit is just crazy since you never had any problems.

Sometimes these forums do more harm that good. It makes a guy that never had any problems hate his car so much to start a class action lawsuit, freakin pathetic. If you don't like it, sell it and get that altima you so much deserve.

Anthony


Amen!

I haven't had any problems either, my first rotary and probally not my last.But for you guys that have problems, let me tell you, you are not alone....Somebody from every manufacture gets a few cars that are bad apples. I had a ' VW Jetta GLI , 2nd owner , and my car when i got it had 20k miles on it, Look like a gem, but was a money pit! My neibor had a 88 GLI too, in fair condition , but was mechanically sound from day one......Every car i owned after that have been problem free , but whose to say my next purchase won't be.

If i were in your shoes , the owners with bad Rx-8's, stay on top of Mazda until they fix it.

If you haven't had any problems with your car, what exactly is *your* problem?

You say there will be more owners with problems than without. Let's start a tally. Since you say you've had no problems, we'll put you down for "without." Score is now 0-1. That puts you behind.

Ken


You also have to keep in mind the amount of rx-8s sold to the amount of owners on this board. Problems can get magnified on the internet forums when this is only a small percentage of total ownership of the car. And I would be willing to say this is not going to be an indicative random sampling of 8 owners.

You guy's don't know what problems really are. You should have owned a 1993 Rx7 from brand new. With the damn vacuum line situation where the blow off and only one turbo works to the 5th gear syncro.

For a guy that owned 15 rotaries (I have you beat in that area) you should stop crying and thanking mazda for building such a nice car.

I've been spending some time on this forum and in my honest opinion, some rx8 owners are the biggest bitches, some really don't deserve this car. For you, to want to start a class action lawsuit is just crazy since you never had any problems.

Sometimes these forums do more harm that good. It makes a guy that never had any problems hate his car so much to start a class action lawsuit, freakin pathetic. If you don't like it, sell it and get that altima you so much deserve.

Anthony

Could not have said it any better myself.....Anthony for President!!

I want to start a class action suit against whining owners that are effecting the resale value of my car...

I want to start a class action suit against whining owners that are effecting the resale value of my car...
I'll be in on this one!

Here's the thing, I have owned over 15 rotary powered cars in my 12 years of driving. The excitement for this RX-8 was there. However, nothing is right with this car. Wrong horsepower ratings from day one, blown motors, transmissions, and Mazda doesn't seem to care. I bought my RX-8 to keep forever, and now the numbers will never match. Mazda sucks and so does this RX-8! :mad:

STFU and sell your car to someone who will enjoy it. In the mean time, stop posting these "I hate my RX8" threads and killing everyones resale value, seeing as thats SOOO important to you.
Take a step back buddy, read your own posts, then realize people like YOU are the CAUSE of the 'problem' youre so upset about.
Jeezus, I know we arent supposed to resort to name calling on here, but what a whinny little bitch, your car is running fine and youre trying to insight a class action lawsuit? You dont deserve your car, sell it.

Nice attitude - nothing is wrong with your car, so you think you should be able to sue and get money. The next thing you know you will sue your doctor because you are in perfect health. Obviously you don't understand class action suits. Even if the lawyers launching the suit win and you are part of the suit, you probably won't get as much as the $500 coupon towards a future Mazda as a previous person posted. I've been contacted by a law firm on another, similar dollar amount class action suit, and when you read the fine print, I could have made anywhere from $12 to $85 for joining the suit. The law firm stood to gain over 50% of the judgment. I did not join the suit, as I felt it is frivolous, just like your call for a suit.

You bought a car that has been reliable for you and you want to sue. Even though you haven't had any problems, Mazda extended the warranty. In what way do you figure that Mazda owes you anything?

I want something worth money in 15 years.


:mdrmed:

dude, if you hate the 8 so much i will trade you for my hyundai +$75 cash, right now!

STFU and sell your car to someone who will enjoy it. In the mean time, stop posting these "I hate my RX8" threads and killing everyones resale value, seeing as thats SOOO important to you.
Take a step back buddy, read your own posts, then realize people like YOU are the CAUSE of the 'problem' youre so upset about.
Jeezus, I know we arent supposed to resort to name calling on here, but what a whinny little bitch, your car is running fine and youre trying to insight a class action lawsuit? You dont deserve your car, sell it.
Ok, the OP is clearly on drugs of some sort, but the idea that threads on this forum are hurting resale values is ridiculous. Faulty horsepower numbers, little low-end torque, bad marketing, mulligan-gate, recalls, bad reputations for rotaries reliability, flooding concerns, and poor gas mileage are what hurt resale values.

In short, this car isn't what America wants and the supply is much, much greater than the demand. This forum neither creates less demand or higher supply and thus doesn't have much impact on resale values overall.

Ok, the OP is clearly on drugs of some sort, but the idea that threads on this forum are hurting resale values is ridiculous. Faulty horsepower numbers, little low-end torque, bad marketing, mulligan-gate, recalls, bad reputations for rotaries reliability, flooding concerns, and poor gas mileage are what hurt resale values.

In short, this car isn't what America wants and the supply is much, much greater than the demand. This forum neither creates less demand or higher supply and thus doesn't have much impact on resale values overall.


I beg to differ. I do agree that these boards will not have much impact on overall resale value but, as more people do research on the internet before they buy a car I would be willing to bet there have been at least some number of people that have been turned off of the car by something they found on these boards. And a lot of the factors you listed seem to be propogated more on these boards than they really are real world problems, from what I can tell.

I beg to differ. I do agree that these boards will not have much impact on overall resale value but, as more people do research on the internet before they buy a car I would be willing to bet there have been at least some number of people that have been turned off of the car by something they found on these boards. And a lot of the factors you listed seem to be propogated more on these boards than they really are real world problems, from what I can tell.
Even if some people are turned off by this forum it's better than them buying an 8 without knowing what to expect and then selling it for cheap just to get rid of it.

This forum does what it's supposed to do. It gives a good depiction of what it's like to own an 8 in various parts of the country under various conditions. Most people are rational and present pros and cons in a reasonable way. There's no way this forum does more harm than good despite what some fanboi's believe.

zeblien thought there should be a sticky about the HP restsatement sillyness. so i made this one a sticky for awhile. I merged the Class Action one in here as well.

Here is my new policy regarding these threads. Any future thread on HP restatements will be immediately closed. Unless of course there is a furthur change to the current rating.

Any future thread started about a class action lawsuit that doesnt include the fact that the OP has already filed said suit or links to someone else having filed said suit will be immediately closed.