http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/06/Autos/ford_mazda_minicar/

so when i asked "what should Mazda do" in this previous thread-

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=80533&highlight=mazda


i guess i have an answer:)

design a whole new car!

brillo previously suggested to me that Ford's ailing in the US would be a boon to Mazda. it looks like that is becoming reality.

Mark Fields, Ford's (http://www.rx8club.com/#) president of the Americas and a former head of Mazda (http://www.rx8club.com/#), said that he believes it is not too late for Ford (http://www.rx8club.com/#) to make a push in the subcompact market, which he sees showing strong growth over the next five years.Haa Haa! Smart guy this Mark...when your company doesn't have a clue how to even find the aformentioned 'small car (http://www.rx8club.com/#) market'...you lie through your smile... and hire someone else (who knows it well) to do it for you. Genius!

"No company today is putting an American stamp on the small-car segment," he told the Journal. "It's always good to be the first mover, but it is not necessarily over if you are not."A laughable oversight this considering... Since Ford can't find the small car market (http://www.rx8club.com/#) in the 1st place, he's obviously not noticed that sad-sack GM (http://www.rx8club.com/#) has joined the market with interesting cars (http://www.rx8club.com/#) like the Solstice/Sky and the Cobolt. Or is he simply ignoring them? On the other hand, GM probably is just as happy he missing in action lol.

sounds like a good idea, doesnt Ford have a nice compat car in Europe? I forget the name. Clarkson on Top gear liked it.

Fiesta, Ka?

solstice sky and cobalt are not in the segment being discussed.

Mark Fields is the guy who turned Mazda around so he is intimately familiar with Mazda's abilities. He also did wonders for Ford Europe after his stint at Mazda. He was brought to Ford US to make just this kind of change. Dont confuse him with previous Ford execs.

I realize who he is, just pointing out his words and phrasing sound a bit silly, like he's simply playing to his domestic USA audience. After all Ford does have good small 'Kas' elsewhere... it seems he acting like they don't exist and this is all new.

Him bringing in Mazda for the design is smart, as Ford is of course putting other Mazda design platforms to good use already, so why not do more of what works in this smaller segment.

Yeah, it's funny that Ford just pretends they don't have great cars in Europe. The Ka is a cool little car and does very well in Europe, they even have a sporty little model (SportKa)that is supposed to be a blast to drive.

Sounds like a good idea, but if Ford would bring over some of their Euro stuff they would be fine also.

Never understood why Ford didn't bring the Euro Focus over here. Call it something different and put a different body on it if you have to.

solstice sky and cobalt are not in the segment being discussed.

Mark Fields is the guy who turned Mazda around so he is intimately familiar with Mazda's abilities. He also did wonders for Ford Europe after his stint at Mazda. He was brought to Ford US to make just this kind of change. Dont confuse him with previous Ford execs.


He was also a Ford exec before he was President of Mazda. He was the first foreign president of Mazda, put in place by Ford after Ford increased their holdings in Mazda during the late 90's.

Ford is dumb. They got burned on the Contour and Merkur so they THINK the Euro models won't sell. This is a case of "stork fallacy". They are missing what the real cause of the problem has been. There is such a thing as right time and place. PLus let's not forget styling and pricing.

I think it's time to try this again. One thing... styling... the Focus looks like ass on both shores. Forget that kind of styling. The new Civic... ewww. Lexus, Infiniti, some Audi and VW and very few current BMW's. Take some lessons from the styling used there... use a global PLATFORM (NOT body. so here I mean like the Mazda3/Focus/Volvo S40, Mazda6/CX-7/Fusion)... do this and you'll see some good results (especially if you can toss a couple RWD and AWD cars in the mix).

Not just mazda... but Ford needs to read this forum too. There was another thread on it too... bring over more of the European and Australian cars!

its the Focus ST I was thinking about. Clarkson really praised it.

http://ford.co.uk/ns7/foc_c307/foc_c307_experience/foc_st_microsite/-/-/-/-#



Fiesta, Ka?

You'd think for expediencies sake, if for no other reason, Ford (http://www.rx8club.com/#) US would just snatch this nice looking, superior small car (http://www.rx8club.com/#) from Europe (Focus lineup) and plunk it down here NOW, rather than wait til 2008 or whenever they say they'll have it here. Or even to wait to have Mazda (http://www.rx8club.com/#) 'invent' another eco car two years down the road and way to late to catch the market upswing happening NOW.

Even at that, I would guess they'll only intro a watered down eco car version with like 102 HP and a 'upgraded' or 'sport' version with ~140HP.

Anyone remember the Ford Cortina, the Pinto, the Ford Fiesta (http://www.rx8club.com/#), the Escort? Bleak offerings. Kudos to them if they surprise me and start really trying to compete with the imports by bringing a serious, full model lineup, but I doubt it will happen, Ford (http://www.rx8club.com/#) US just doesn't think that way.

The Wall Street Journal has apparently quoted Mazda's (http://www.rx8club.com/#) chief executive and president, Hisakazu Imaki as saying that the Japanese automaker is working with Dearborn to create a platform that will accomodate the next-generation Fiesta for European markets, along with the Mazda2. Mazda (http://www.rx8club.com/#) 2 look-alike is a more likely type car to carry on the Ford (http://www.rx8club.com/#) tradition of too little too late. American product planners/bean counters at Ford (#) will probably never learn.

this is the segment smaller than focus so they are talking about Festiva and Mazda2. Mazda is already working on the replacement platform for the next GEn Mazda2 and this platform will be used in US by Ford as well as europe. in europe it will be the next festiva.

Everyone needs to calm down. You are blaming Ford for not bringing 'A' and 'B' class products to the US.....but you need to blame your neighbor with the Hemi Charger. Americans don't want small cars.....isn't that obvious???? Mark Fields was talking about this emerging 'Y-Gen Market' and the need for small cars....but his mention of 2008 is just about right. I think the total sales of all current 'A' and 'B' class cars sold in the US are still less than 450,000 units. The Camry sells nearly 500,000 units all by itself. Ford has product in Europe and the rest of the world for markets that appreciate small cars and actually buy them. The Ka is a great 'A' class car for Ford in world markets, the Fiesta is a great 'B' car for Ford in world markets, the Focus is a unbelievably great seller in the 'B-C' class segment in the world markets......so let's stop blaming Ford. When America is ready.....TRULY READY to get serious about small cars.....then Ford will have them available. Until then, Ford will continue to sell what people want.

^^^
What is it you do for Ford again? You might want to ask them for commission for standing-up for them so much on this site.

And I agree with what you say above, to me that's why North America has Mustangs but not the FocusRS.

Everyone needs to calm down. You are blaming Ford for not bringing 'A' and 'B' class products to the US.....but you need to blame your neighbor with the Hemi Charger. Americans don't want small cars.....isn't that obvious???? Mark Fields was talking about this emerging 'Y-Gen Market' and the need for small cars....but his mention of 2008 is just about right. I think the total sales of all current 'A' and 'B' class cars sold in the US are still less than 450,000 units. The Camry sells nearly 500,000 units all by itself. Ford has product in Europe and the rest of the world for markets that appreciate small cars and actually buy them. The Ka is a great 'A' class car for Ford in world markets, the Fiesta is a great 'B' car for Ford in world markets, the Focus is a unbelievably great seller in the 'B-C' class segment in the world markets......so let's stop blaming Ford. When America is ready.....TRULY READY to get serious about small cars.....then Ford will have them available. Until then, Ford will continue to sell what people want.

I respect Bascho's views here and he is correct about the US market and their love for "Large" cars.

I would not though call the Ford KA a great car, Ford Australia imported it here and it failed to impress and compete with other Japanese cars of similar size, IMO if a small car does not sell in Australia, its not going to work in the USA.

The Focus here does well, with the Mazda 3/Volvo platform share, the updated Focus is not doing as well here as Ford would like, still early days though/supply issues, the Mazda 3 is a huge success like in every other world market also.

The German Fiesta does OK here, but again is not the market leader, at the moment that goes to the Suzuki Swift, Mazda 2, Toyota Yaris, my neighbour has the latest Fiesta and its a well built German car for its size, very thin sheet metal!

IMO I just can not see the US ever downgrading into these very small and light cars, not in any volume sales, they are OK for the young family members, but, the reality is that like many Australians, these small cars just don't fit our human bodies comfortably, as we are the most overweight in the world. USA #1, Australia #2,,, too squeezy..

And then there are the safety/crash issues with small cars mentioned.

Basho, what you say about Ford (or GM, or to some extent D-C) making what Americans want and therfore few small cars as Americans aren't ready for small cars is just silliness.

It's no doubt some Americans love their big cars (but perhaps we should say their TRUCKS, to be more exact), but the logic that the big 3 are simply making the cars Americans want and therefore they don't make many small cars is laughable.

For example, how did these following manufacturers decimate the big 3s auto sales in the US over the last 4 decades if that is so? Most of these 'small car' manufacturers didn't even have a presence in the US 40 years ago. Look at the market they have stolen from those making 'big cars' (& trucks)!

Just some that have risen from vitually no sales to today's position in the market (in no particualr order) Hyundai, Toyota, Mazda, Honda, Kia, Acura, Nissan, Volkwagan, Suzuki, Mini, Porsche, Saab, Mitsubish, Scion, Subaru.

These companies all manufacture QUALITY small car LINES, not just single point product cars, and are unbelievably continuing the attack that Detroit seem to be blind to.

Everyone needs to calm down. You are blaming Ford for not bringing 'A' and 'B' class products to the US.....but you need to blame your neighbor with the Hemi Charger. Americans don't want small cars.....isn't that obvious???? Mark Fields was talking about this emerging 'Y-Gen Market' and the need for small cars....but his mention of 2008 is just about right. I think the total sales of all current 'A' and 'B' class cars sold in the US are still less than 450,000 units. The Camry sells nearly 500,000 units all by itself. Ford has product in Europe and the rest of the world for markets that appreciate small cars and actually buy them. The Ka is a great 'A' class car for Ford in world markets, the Fiesta is a great 'B' car for Ford in world markets, the Focus is a unbelievably great seller in the 'B-C' class segment in the world markets......so let's stop blaming Ford. When America is ready.....TRULY READY to get serious about small cars.....then Ford will have them available. Until then, Ford will continue to sell what people want.


Who said I was talking about "A" or "B" class cars? I've been talking about their entire lineup except for trucks/SUV's. And what's wrong with offering one or two niche cars? Not SVT sported up current models. I mean a completely niche car... the Ford GT is one, but I actually mean one that is affordable. No need to mortage the home to bring the cars enthusiasts like over... but hell. DCX got their whole Hemi thing going and it's built excitement for the brand... it's got people walking into their showrooms to check out the Hemi 300C SRT-8. Where's the excitement at Ford? Don't give me the Ford GT or GT500. None of the SVT stuff is widely available at nearly every dealership for people to check out. At least in the case of the GT500 there is an affordable lower model car for people to buy, but that isn't the case with the Ford GT. Anyway the point is... Ford needs to make more exciting cars. This has been said before... except for the Mustang... *yawn* :boring: Yes even the Fusion. Exterior is ok. Interior could be better, the parts bin steering wheel sucks and lack of MT in the V6 model sucks royally. Yes there is an SVT model coming... but it's not here now and as far as we know it won't be here in 2007. It won't have a Hemi either. Too little, too late. Ford needs to fire all the bean counters and just do something crazy... something daring, creative... something that will get people's attention (that is in the affordable market). I think that this is really what people here are crying about.

^^^
What is it you do for Ford again? You might want to ask them for commission for standing-up for them so much on this site.

And I agree with what you say above, to me that's why North America has Mustangs but not the FocusRS.


I work in PD.......but I grew up in a Ford family. My dad has worked for Ford for 30 years and I consider him a mentor and a father. Ford has lots of problems and many of them are very complicated. But I believe that the biggest obsticals to change are the mindsets of the people that work here. There are Ford employees that do not like Ford at all. Do you think those people are helping make the company better? I understand that some people here think that working for Ford may be the only option based on job availability in their area.....but that is BS. I didn't have to work for Ford.....I wanted to work for Ford. I love the fact that even though Ford has 350,000 employess spread across 6 continents, it still feels like a family company. Do I love every single product that Ford makes....No. But I don't like every single product that any company makes. I love Porsche......I hate the Cayanne (sp?). I love Ford, I hate the US market Focus, Taurus, Crown Vic.......but I love the Mustang, the Fusion, the Edge....and the Five Hundred is a really nice car for the money. It's not the most exciting exterior....yet :D: But the interior is extremely nice and AWD is a huge asset to those of us in the northern states. Remember, the Five Hundred is built on a Volvo S80 platform.....it's really an understated car.

I should get commission though :D:

Basho, what you say about Ford (or GM, or to some extent D-C) making what Americans want and therfore few small cars as Americans aren't ready for small cars is just silliness.

It's no doubt some Americans love their big cars (but perhaps we should say their TRUCKS, to be more exact), but the logic that the big 3 are simply making the cars Americans want and therefore they don't make many small cars is laughable.

For example, how did these following manufacturers decimate the big 3s auto sales in the US over the last 4 decades if that is so? Most of these 'small car' manufacturers didn't even have a presence in the US 40 years ago. Look at the market they have stolen from those making 'big cars' (& trucks)!

Just some that have risen from vitually no sales to today's position in the market (in no particualr order) Hyundai, Toyota, Mazda, Honda, Kia, Acura, Nissan, Volkwagan, Suzuki, Mini, Porsche, Saab, Mitsubish, Scion, Subaru.

These companies all manufacture QUALITY small car LINES, not just single point product cars, and are unbelievably continuing the attack that Detroit seem to be blind to.


Using the term 'small car' is really subjective. Some people consider the Fusion or Camry a small car. Vehicles are broken into segments such as 'A', 'B', 'BC', 'C', 'CD', 'D', and so on. When I say that 'A' and 'B' segment cars will not sell in the US that is based on historical and present sales information. The Asian car makers did not get rich in the US by selling 'A' and 'B' segment cars.....they got rich selling 'C' and 'CD' cars. The reason they were able to break into this segment in the US is that Americans of then and now believe in the bigger is better theory. When I say Americans, I mean citizens that have lived in this country for several generations. Immigrants to the US do not have the same mindset and thus purchased the smaller automobiles they were used to in their native country. It just so happened that the smaller cars were available in great #'s from Asian car makers. The US eventually started pumping out 'BC' & 'C' segment cars......but they had no clue how to do that. Why? because these companys employ Americans who feel bigger is better. The US attempt at the 'BC' and 'C' segment car produced cheap crap that exaggerated the quality gap between the Asian brand and US domestic ones. If you research the trend for all cars sold in the US, you will see that ALL cars are getting larger. The Civic started out as a 'B' segment car and has morphed into a 'BC' segment car....why, Americans wanted a bigger Civic. A Camry from the early 90's is noticably smaller than one built today. If smaller was better in the US, why wouldn't these cars be shrinking?

By the way Mazda, Kia, Acura, Volkwagan, Suzuki, Mini, Porsche, Saab, Mitsubish, BMW, Scion, & Subaru are so much as a blip on the market share pie in the US.

Who said I was talking about "A" or "B" class cars? I've been talking about their entire lineup except for trucks/SUV's. And what's wrong with offering one or two niche cars? Not SVT sported up current models. I mean a completely niche car... the Ford GT is one, but I actually mean one that is affordable. No need to mortage the home to bring the cars enthusiasts like over... but hell. DCX got their whole Hemi thing going and it's built excitement for the brand... it's got people walking into their showrooms to check out the Hemi 300C SRT-8. Where's the excitement at Ford? Don't give me the Ford GT or GT500. None of the SVT stuff is widely available at nearly every dealership for people to check out. At least in the case of the GT500 there is an affordable lower model car for people to buy, but that isn't the case with the Ford GT. Anyway the point is... Ford needs to make more exciting cars. This has been said before... except for the Mustang... *yawn* :boring: Yes even the Fusion. Exterior is ok. Interior could be better, the parts bin steering wheel sucks and lack of MT in the V6 model sucks royally. Yes there is an SVT model coming... but it's not here now and as far as we know it won't be here in 2007. It won't have a Hemi either. Too little, too late. Ford needs to fire all the bean counters and just do something crazy... something daring, creative... something that will get people's attention (that is in the affordable market). I think that this is really what people here are crying about.

I think you've been watching too many DCX commercials featuring the Hemi ads. The actual percentages of SRT8 packaged 300's, Charger's, Magnum's, Grand Cherokee's & Ram's is very low. In fact SRT8 products and SVT products probably have the same regional availabilty. Don't think that just because they offer the 6.1 in 6 different vehicles, that is what people are buying. The SRT8 option brings the sale price of these vehicles over $40K, which means the sales of these are probably less than 2000 per nameplate. I am just guessing here, so if someone has data to support or disprove my statement, please provide it.

Anyone who is a car enthusiest wants car makers to make fast, sporty, handsome, well appointed cars for us to drool over......but many times these niche cars are lost leaders. The domestic auto makers don't have the disposable cash right now to waste on low volume niche cars. Remember the T-bird, that was a niche vehicle that Ford took a bath on. You think that GM can afford another SSR fiasco? What niche car is Toyota building?

Have u guys ever wondered why American's home brew cars never had any good sales, when they compared to what Japanese Car Manufature. Im talking about not only the Sales numbers within the States, Im talking about the Whole world.

I agree with bascho, Look at that Charger... Americans dont want small cars ... yet, that thing is superior in terms of ugliness and I-would-rather-buy-a-Truck-than-that-kind-of-design.

I see them on the streets almost everyday, and so far the only people who "owns them", as far as I can tell/see, are americans. Just like the "type of americans that Bascho described"

Yeah Im in NYC of course its full of americans but what Im trying to say is that, they want to have "big" stuff so it can make them look like they're tough or something, why? yeah always changing lanes w/o any singal, or even singal they dont care they always tried to push you away.

But sad thing is that I never let them, gave them the finger and I just keep going, hit me if you dare pussies !

Of course many of them thinks that, "my charger have 350 horse and Im gonna smoke ur ass", I bet their eyes were "wide open" when they cant even see my tail light after like some straight and 2 corners.

back to topic, hmm however, things are changing slowly now, more and more americans reliazed the fact that they like smaller cars.

But Ford .... I dont know, This company sometimes makes me sick. Always late for the market and they still thinks that theyre like 100 years ago when they pretty much owned the market. Its really sad that Mazda gotta "work with/for" such moron corporation.

Oh bascho ... I think even big Corporation like Microsoft, have employees that "hates/dislike" their own company. So what excatly is your point? Microsoft is still the #1 software company in the world. Bill Gates still the richest dude on earth.

So I think it has nothing to do with "my employees love/hate" my company or not. It has alot to do with exec's decision. and Ford made alot of stupid/avoidable mistakes in their history. and they're still doing it now.

I saw quite alot of commericals on TV lately starting Bill Ford. Yep, its time to show your ass up more, dont end up like GM.

But Ford .... I dont know, This company sometimes makes me sick. Always late for the market and they still thinks that theyre like 100 years ago when they pretty much owned the market. Its really sad that Mazda gotta "work with/for" such moron corporation.


See, this is the mindset that needs to change. Ford does own Mazda (in a way) and therefore does not need to compete with them in the same markets. Ford does use global platforms developed through partnerships with Mazda, Jaguar and Volvo. These global platforms are split into various 'looks' and 'content levels' in order to compete with non-Ford competitors. Why would Ford need to build a Ford branded vehicle that looks like a Mazda? or Volvo? Ford was founded on being a car for Joe Smith, the everyman. Ford doesn't need to make a Fusion V6 with a 5MT or 6MT.....Mazda 6 meets that need. Ford doesn't need an STI or EVO, they have a Mazda MS6 and the Volvo S60R.

Now, what Ford does need is more 'BC' and 'C' segment cars. The US market Focus is all wrong for today's needs. I think the US is ready for the Focus sold everywhere else in the world. They can retain the cheap entry level of the base versions to appeal to the 'point A to point B type of commuter' and then also have a more expensive ST for those willing to spend over $20K on a 'C' segment car. They also need a 2-door version of the 'CD' segment platform the CD3. The 2-door Accord has done very well in the US and Ford does not have any car in this segment. The future will show if the 'B' segment car will take-off in the US....and if it does, they have the Fiesta platform to work from. Last year Ford had the synUS concept at the NAIAS which was an example of the range the Fiesta platform is capable of.

I understand what you're trying to say, but the thing is that.

Ford made alot of stupid mistakes, but the question should be.

*When will they learn their lessons ?*

It's been a while that these BC and C cars are doing very well in the market. but why Ford still doing stupid stuff? Maybe u're right about they still hired alot of Americans and thinks that "Bigger = better" kind of theory.

*off topic, MS6 is a great car but ... its nowhere near STi/Evo level ... imo*

Oh bascho ... I think even big Corporation like Microsoft, have employees that "hates/dislike" their own company. So what excatly is your point? Microsoft is still the #1 software company in the world. Bill Gates still the richest dude on earth.

Sorry about that, I guess I didn't really expand on that thought. My point is that people who hate the company they work for should find another job. I'm not talking about hating the office you're in or the people you work with, I am talking about hating the brand, the image, the products. Everyone may have issues with a certain facet of their business......but if you care about the company then you will try to help fix the problems. Those people that don't care about the company have no interest in fixing anything.

BTW, are you sure Bill Gates is still the richest man on earth? I know he was 5 years ago, but things may have changed. I honestly don't know the answer, I just wonder if he is still the richest man in the world.

Yes he is. The Microsoft shares on his hands .... can .... put him .... on the richest ...

forbes Can show ya that, I looked at it a month or 2 ago, I think it was like 46 billion and second was Warren Buffett with 44 billion

http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/2005/03/07/cz_bill05_top20slide.html?thisSpeed=20000

10th - 14th Place are owned by Walton's family, AKA WAL-MART (Yea, made in china stuff got them rich ...)

I understand what you're trying to say, but the thing is that.

Ford made alot of stupid mistakes, but the question should be.

*When will they learn their lessons ?*

It's been a while that these BC and C cars are doing very well in the market. but why Ford still doing stupid stuff? Maybe u're right about they still hired alot of Americans and thinks that "Bigger = better" kind of theory.

*off topic, MS6 is a great car but ... its nowhere near STi/Evo level ... imo*


I agree that Ford has made mistakes and big companies are lousy for that. The real question is can they learn from them? Talking to my dad, who's been through this several times during his 3 decade tenure, he says yes and no. He says that Ford will learn to do some things better.....but eventually get caught in the same cycles all over again. I am relatively new to the business, so I am optimistic that Ford is changing and hope that we can sustain that mindset.

I really feel like Ford needs more people like me out there defending the our Company and helping change mindsets. I know many of you dismiss most of what I have to say about Ford because you have already given up on them. Unfortunately that is not going to stop me from trying to change your mind about Ford :D:

I know the MS6 does not compete with the STI or EVO.....but it's close enough for most people.

Yes he is. The Microsoft shares on his hands .... can .... put him .... on the richest ...

forbes Can show ya that, I looked at it a month or 2 ago, I think it was like 46 billion and second was Warren Buffett with 44 billion

http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/2005/03/07/cz_bill05_top20slide.html?thisSpeed=20000

10th - 14th Place are owned by Walton's family, AKA WAL-MART (Yea, made in china stuff got them rich ...)

Thanks for the info. I think he is still down from a few years ago, I think I remember him being worth over $60 Billion at some point in time. I was fully expecting some oil baron in Saudi Arabia to beet out Gate this year.

I used to like Ford alot, I mean its still a big company with lots of great people.

but I mean , its still always the exec who will determine a company's future.

Ford gotta work on that. Well at some point I gotta thank you to Ford, I cant get my 8 without them :-P

*off topic talk*
Oh by the way, Hmm Im sorta confused the relation between Mazda and Ford all the time. Its a little off topic , however. :-(

Nah, As long as people use computers and Windows is here, Mr. Gates gonna stay. Microsoft shares dropped alot for the past few years. well should I say the whole market ? So when the market goes up, his $$$ goes up.

*off topic talk*
Oh by the way, Hmm Im sorta confused the relation between Mazda and Ford all the time. Its a little off topic , however. :-( .

This has been discussed before....but I'll give you a quick summary. Ford holds 30% of Mazda's shares (stock). 30% makes Ford the majority shareholder of Mazda and thus occupies more seats on Mazda's board of directors. But the relationship is more integrated than that, almost as much as the relationship with Ford's wholly-owned subsidiaries.

Ford owns Mazda. thats the relationship. Ford hires and fires the President of the company and other execs.

okie ...

Hmm ... maybe they should put more money to the Rotary Devlopment ? ... :-)

Ok, enough :-)

This has been discussed before....but I'll give you a quick summary. Ford holds 30% of Mazda's shares (stock). 30% makes Ford the majority shareholder of Mazda and thus occupies more seats on Mazda's board of directors. But the relationship is more integrated than that, almost as much as the relationship with Ford's wholly-owned subsidiaries.

Actually how the Ford influence came to Mazda was years before the US arm of Ford steps it, origingally.......and this is a brief explanation...

After the death of Mr.Matsuda the last main surviving executive and family founder of Mazda, financial constraints occurred over the fuel crisis of 1973/74/75, Mazda invested heavily in the RX-4 and all rotaries, but, sales slumped DRAMATICALLY, the Sumitomo Bank took control.(as far as I know are still to this day the MAJORITY financial share holder of MAZDA, more than the 30% or Ford US).

After the Sumitomo Banks rescued Mazda from bankruptcy, Ford Australia (which is US owned..dah), actually bought 25% of the share from the bank, and had one(1) Australian board member.

Ford US realised Mazda's worth and purchased another 5% about 10 years later, and another 2 board members to 3, add "Booth" as president that brings the total to 4 out of the 14 board members.

Later a US CEO was installed to represent their 30% share more "appropriately".


In the US you may view it differently, but here in Australia and the UK 51% is a majority share and controlling interest/ownership, and the same applies in Japan.

Out of a total of 46 executives at Mazda Japan, 12 are American, 1 Australian, and the remaining 33 are Japanese.

If you purchase 30% of anything, do you really think you own it?

Yes, by agreement Lewis Booth is the president, and yes, Ford US can hire or fire executives, Ford US has managerial control of Mazda Japan, but they do not have total ownership/control of Mazda Motor Corporation.

A Japanese owned Bank has the largest slice of the cake, do you really think a bank owned by other shareholders are going to give complete control, of an asset that they own a financial majority in to another company?, they are not going to expose themselves by giving Ford a free reign.

What net profit share do you think Ford US gets from Mazda, more than it owns, of course not, get real you guys please.

If and when Ford buys more that 50% you can then say that they have a controlling interest/ownership of Mazda.

What percentage does this bank own?

What percentage does this bank own?


Exactly......good question BlueEyes. I've never heard of any other company owning more shares of Mazda then Ford Motor Company. Also, you don't need to have 51% of the shares to have majority control.......you just have to have more than the second largest shareholder. If Ford had a 51% stake in Mazda, then they would have absolute control of Mazda and could make every decision in the board room.

I am really interested in this bank owning more shares of Mazda then Ford.....

Bascho...

The real reason that Japanese/Asian made cars (small) cars have done so well in the US like Australia since the early 1970's is because they offered a superior build quality and reliability when compared the the locally made product, to this day they continue to maintain a strong customer base.

All the import brands you mentioned earlier may only still have a small share of your market, however, without them GM and Ford all those years ago would have continued to make unreliable and poorly made/finished cars.

Thanks to these imports the local manufacturers had to change production tooling and equipment and "improve" the quality of their labour and work practices...which still have some way to go.....by your own admissions.

Americans like Australians will continue to buy large cars as the 'majority' of unit sales as you can not comfortably fit a large family in a small class car's.

As I said originally the Sumitomo bank(Japanese) bought 100% of Mazda.. it is still around 60%...
Who do you think makes up the other 70% that Ford does not own?

Ford owns the majority of shares . you dont need 50 percent to have a majority. everyone else just has to have less than you.

brand history
http://www.fordmotorcompany.co.za/corporate/history/mazda.asp

article on the sumitomo bank interest
http://www.chugoku-np.co.jp/MAZDA/tokusyu4/e980526.html

Bascho....

You work at Ford US, you should be able to find the exact shareholder split of Mazda Japan.
I agree with you if Ford US is the largest stake holder (30%) then they have control of Mazda, I am very sure that the Sumitomo bank has a larger share, can you find out?

As far as I can recall, I don't remember the bank completely divesting themselves from MMC.

Yeah Zoom, that South African link, says what I said from my memory...in 1996

"Mazda and Ford enter into a closer tie-up with Ford increasing its equity share from 25% to 33.4%. "

I was out by 3.4%.

I agree with what you said, I want to be convinced that there is not another stakeholder that has more than 33.4%, as I said I think and are sure that the Sumitomo Bank has more...If Basco can get the actual share split, I will agree to it...

Edit:... Thanks Zoom, I have just had a quick read of the link you supplied, I will have another look later as I have to go...

It still appears though that as of 1997, 58.8% is still owned bu another identity, I presume the Sumitiomo Bank...catch you later, thanks again Zoom!

Yeah Zoom, that South African link, says what I said from my memory...in 1996

"Mazda and Ford enter into a closer tie-up with Ford increasing its equity share from 25% to 33.4%. "

I was out by 3.4%.

I agree with what you said, I want to be convinced that there is not another stakeholder that has more than 33.4%, as I said I think and are sure that the Sumitomo Bank has more...If Basco can get the actual share split, I will agree to it...


I don't know if I can. I'll try though. Isn't Mazda a publicly traded company with shares traded in open stock markets? I am not sure. I knew Ford had 33.4%.....I just say 30% percent because it's easier. I didn't realize that Ford had offered to buy 51% at one point in time (thanks for the article Zoom). Based on the article I am not totally convinced that the Sumitomo had actually owned Mazda at all......they may have bailed Mazda out with large corporate loans and that is why they had so much interest in Ford getting involved. I am really going to research this topic now....both for this discussion and for my own personal knowledge.

would be awesome if Ford could produce a Focus that's similar to the WRC car. AWD + Turbo would sell and compete with subies and VW's.

Ford now has 33.7%
http://www.mazda.com/investors/03kabu/index.htm

http://www.mazda.com/investors/03kabu/st1.htm


Shareholder No. of Shares Owned -------------------- --------Ratio (%)
Ford Automotive International Holding, S.L. 408,175,800 ------------ ----- 30.70
Japan Trustee Services Bank,Ltd.(Trust) 112,084,000 --------------- 8.43
The Master Trust Bank of Japan, Ltd.(Trust) 84,396,000 ---------------- 6.35
FLP Canada 42,483,660 ------------------3.19
Tokio Marine & Nichido Fire Insurance Co.,Ltd. 40,410,500 ----------------3.04
Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corp. 37,624,500 --------------------2.83
Mitsui Sumitomo Insurance Co.,Ltd. 32,483,250 -------------- -------------------2.44
Sompo Japan Insurance Inc. 20,210,000 -------------- ------------------1.52
Trust & Custody Services Bank, Ltd(Trust B) 17,945,000 ----------------------1.35
Japan Trustee Services Bank,Ltd.(Trust4) 17,487,000 ------------1.32

http://www.mazda.com/investors/03kabu/st2.htm
http://www.mazda.com/investors/03kabu/img/graph.gif :ylsuper:

I don't know if I can. I'll try though. Isn't Mazda a publicly traded company with shares traded in open stock markets? I am not sure. I knew Ford had 33.4%.....I just say 30% percent because it's easier. I didn't realize that Ford had offered to buy 51% at one point in time (thanks for the article Zoom). Based on the article I am not totally convinced that the Sumitomo had actually owned Mazda at all......they may have bailed Mazda out with large corporate loans and that is why they had so much interest in Ford getting involved. I am really going to research this topic now....both for this discussion and for my own personal knowledge.

Thanks Bacho... I would really like to know the actual split, as I said I am going on what happened when I was working with Mazda ,and for memory all those years ago, yes, the Bank bailed Mazda out, I am also not sure of the load structure, I still think then that they had almost total control, Mazda was very sick financially, I hope you can source out the detail.
Cheers..
Have to go..

i posted the info last post previous page;)

here it is again for folks using the normal posts per page like myself

Ford now has 33.89%
http://www.mazda.com/investors/03kabu/index.htm

http://www.mazda.com/investors/03kabu/st1.htm


Shareholder No. of Shares Owned -------------------- --------Ratio (%)
Ford Automotive International Holding, S.L. 408,175,800 ------------ ----- 30.70
Japan Trustee Services Bank,Ltd.(Trust) 112,084,000 --------------- 8.43
The Master Trust Bank of Japan, Ltd.(Trust) 84,396,000 ---------------- 6.35
FLP Canada 42,483,660 ------------------3.19
Tokio Marine & Nichido Fire Insurance Co.,Ltd. 40,410,500 ----------------3.04
Sumitomo Mitsui Banking Corp. 37,624,500 --------------------2.83
Mitsui Sumitomo Insurance Co.,Ltd. 32,483,250 -------------- -------------------2.44
Sompo Japan Insurance Inc. 20,210,000 -------------- ------------------1.52
Trust & Custody Services Bank, Ltd(Trust B) 17,945,000 ----------------------1.35
Japan Trustee Services Bank,Ltd.(Trust4) 17,487,000 ------------1.32

http://www.mazda.com/investors/03kabu/st2.htm
http://www.mazda.com/investors/03kabu/img/graph.gif :ylsuper:

I found this in a Google search:

About Mazda Motor Corporation

Mazda Motor Corporation (TSE: 7261) started manufacturing tools in 1929 and soon branched out into production of trucks for commercial use. In the early 1960s, Mazda launched its first passenger car models and began developing rotary engines. Still headquartered in Hiroshima in western Japan, Mazda today ranks as one of Japan's leading automakers, and exports cars to the United States and Europe for over 30 years. Overseas sales account for more than half of total turnover. Mazda has two main production sites in Japan and 19 overseas facilities. Overseas sites include joint ventures based in the United States, and in Thailand with Ford Motor Company, Mazda's largest shareholder.

Contact:

Mazda Motor Corporation
Mr K. Yoshitake
yoshitake.k@tky.mazda.co.jp
+81-82-282-1111

here it is again for folks using the normal posts per page like myself

Ford now has 33.7%
http://www.mazda.com/investors/03kabu/index.htm

http://www.mazda.com/investors/03kabu/st1.htm



http://www.mazda.com/investors/03kabu/st2.htm
http://www.mazda.com/investors/03kabu/img/graph.gif :ylsuper:


Nice post Zoom :D: That's why you da boss of this shiiiit

i edited my post= ford owns 33.89 now as FLP canada is 100% owned by ford

Thanks ZOOM!!
I am getting yelled at to get off, I have to go....!!

I stand corrected ZOOM, yep Ford has the financial controlling interest in Mazda.....

Bascho, There was obviously no need for Ford to take 51%, or spend more $$$'s...

Thanks again Zoom...your the man!

I've just always referred naysayers regarding Fords control of Mazda to Ford's Annual Report. Mazda is clearly listed in the pages in black and white for all to see with top Ford executives commenting on the direction of the company. When the RX-8 first came to market the Ford annual report had near a full page dedicated to bragging about the development of the car.

Nice post Zoom :D: That's why you da boss of this shiiiit


HEY! I had posted stuff on this a couple weeks ago... including info on Japanese corporate law. :mad:

Actually how the Ford influence came to Mazda was years before the US arm of Ford steps it, origingally.......and this is a brief explanation...

After the death of Mr.Matsuda the last main surviving executive and family founder of Mazda, financial constraints occurred over the fuel crisis of 1973/74/75, Mazda invested heavily in the RX-4 and all rotaries, but, sales slumped DRAMATICALLY, the Sumitomo Bank took control.(as far as I know are still to this day the MAJORITY financial share holder of MAZDA, more than the 30% or Ford US).

After the Sumitomo Banks rescued Mazda from bankruptcy, Ford Australia (which is US owned..dah), actually bought 25% of the share from the bank, and had one(1) Australian board member.

Ford US realised Mazda's worth and purchased another 5% about 10 years later, and another 2 board members to 3, add "Booth" as president that brings the total to 4 out of the 14 board members.

Later a US CEO was installed to represent their 30% share more "appropriately".


In the US you may view it differently, but here in Australia and the UK 51% is a majority share and controlling interest/ownership, and the same applies in Japan.

Out of a total of 46 executives at Mazda Japan, 12 are American, 1 Australian, and the remaining 33 are Japanese.

Ford bought their stake in Mazda in the 70's... when all the shit was hitting the fan. Whether this was through Ford of Australia or straight from Ford Motor Corp... I don't know. Ford didn't raise their stake to the present almost 34% until the 90's. That was when the first non-Japanese president and CEO of Mazda, Mark Fields (http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=3810), was appointed by Ford. He was installed not as a show of power, but because Mazda was in the sewer. This is just after the FD was pulled from the US, Amanti failed, the Millenia failed, and the Japanese economy was still tanking (outside of IT). He was installed for the same reason Carlos Ghosn took over as CEO of Nissan... to clean house and get the company back to making money.

Sorry, Japanese corporate law ISN'T the same as Australia or even the US. Actually it's rather screwed up, but that's par for course. Anyway, as I had posted some weeks ago... LEGALLY, ownership of 1/3 or more of the shares gives the holder management decision power and veto power at board meetings. So it doesn't matter if anyone else holds a ton of shares or not... they have to work together with Ford to get what they want. But that point is moot, because as both Zoom44 and I (in the past) have posted, Ford IS the largest shareholder inaddtion to owning more than 1/3 of Mazda's shares.

My simple question turned into a big big discussion :-O

They should put more resource into Rotary devlopement. 8 was the first car I personally "own". Im paying it outa my own savings. @ 25 years old I think its ok to have my own car.

I didnt know what Rotary was really like, I heard good things about the 7, so I got the 8.

At first I was "quite disppoainted" with its performance. but the more I drive it, the more I like it.

Now my question is, what would've happened. if Ford gave Mazda's more "resources" in the first place for Rotary Development ? Its gonna be alot better I think.

i actually was going to go looking for your previous post on the subject Japan but i found the stock info first.

My simple question turned into a big big discussion :-O

They should put more resource into Rotary devlopement. 8 was the first car I personally "own". Im paying it outa my own savings. @ 25 years old I think its ok to have my own car.

I didnt know what Rotary was really like, I heard good things about the 7, so I got the 8.

At first I was "quite disppoainted" with its performance. but the more I drive it, the more I like it.

Now my question is, what would've happened. if Ford gave Mazda's more "resources" in the first place for Rotary Development ? Its gonna be alot better I think.

I think you'd be surprised how much of a shoe string budget Mazda got for the renesis engine development, and they still hit a home run. Then they went and f'd it up by richening up the afr which has let to the issues with poor mileage, power loss, flooding. If you look at how much stuff was held over from the 13B, you can see what they had to work with.

It looks like we will finally be getting some serious rotary advancements in the near future such as direct injection, all aluminum construction and hybrid technology.

i actually was going to go looking for your previous post on the subject Japan but i found the stock info first.


's ok. Thought it was odd you didn't just post a link to that thread instead of searching. I c now.

The reason they were able to break into this segment in the US is that Americans of then and now believe in the bigger is better theory. When I say Americans, I mean citizens that have lived in this country for several generations. Immigrants to the US do not have the same mindset and thus purchased the smaller automobiles they were used to in their native country. It just so happened that the smaller cars were available in great #'s from Asian car makers. The above is too blatant and insult to all involved in that paragraph to let it pass bascho. You seem well intentioned so benefit of the doubt to you.... Maybe you didn't intend it the way it sounds, but.... think what you're saying....really.

I'm not sure where you get these stereotyped ideas from... but talk with ignorant inferences like that has recently been coming from noteables like the Mayor or New Orleans, Pat Robinson, and Trent Lot, to name only a few who seem destined to put their foot in their mouths regularly.

To say only immigrants to this country historically buy/bought small cars... and that's how the 'foreign' automakers got started.... I mean really.... that is a head shaker. Where have you grown up? It's simply insulting and that's the nicest word that comes to mind.

Let me tell you a story and hopefully this will educate you, if even only a bit...

My relatives likey were on the Mayflower, at least to hear them talk. I'm white as a sheet, as American as apple pie, at least according to your definitions. As I mentioned somewhere in a thread, my first car out of HS was a 1965 Ford Galaxy (http://www.rx8club.com/#) 500, only a few years old at that time. What a fun piece of crap that was. A 289 V8 auto that had a glasspack muffler, chrome aircleaner, 4 barrel carb and a jacked up rear end... it looked pretty good. However it went like a slow fart lol, so I always lost streetlight challenges that came my way regularly because of the muffler sound. I spent more keeping it running for my 1 yr of ownership than I paid for it, and it was my everlasting lesson on FORDs (even though I had been brought up to love them by my well-intention, but sadly misinformed (conerning quality cars) father.

Sold it and bought a brand spanking new 1972 Toyota Mark II. One of the best cars I've owned. After 109K, sold that and bought the 1st Honda Accord brough to the US in 1976...it was about Mini size, then after that several more Honda Accords, a Mitsu, a Civic, and now the RX-8.

Moral of the story....and hopefully a lesson in something for you...I don't think there is anything at all unusual about my buying habits, Millions of people who are sensible, reasonable people from where ever by small cars in America. It has absolutely nothing to do with your wrong-headed idea that immigrants like small cars because the are 'used to them in their own countries' or whatever you were trying to say.

If you are basing your logic in this thread on ideas as wrong headed as these are, your arguments here are virtually baseless. I'm not flaming you.... I'm telling you you need to get out of the cabbage patch you've been getting your ideas from about people and cars and 'Americans' and discover the real world. maybe travel a bit... it's a big country. I not trying to insult you, just wake you up. Perhaps that's why so many have difficulty with many of your thoughts.

The above is too blatant and insult to all involved in that paragraph to let it pass bascho. You seem well intentioned so benefit of the doubt to you.... Maybe you didn't intend it the way it sounds, but.... think what you're saying....really.

I'm not sure where you get these stereotyped ideas from... but talk with ignorant inferences like that has recently been coming from noteables like the Mayor or New Orleans, Pat Robinson, and Trent Lot, to name only a few who seem destined to put their foot in their mouths regularly.

To say only immigrants to this country historically buy/bought small cars... and that's how the 'foreign' automakers got started.... I mean really.... that is a head shaker. Where have you grown up? It's simply insulting and that's the nicest word that comes to mind.

Let me tell you a story and hopefully this will educate you, if even only a bit...

My relatives likey were on the Mayflower, at least to hear them talk. I'm white as a sheet, as American as apple pie, at least according to your definitions. As I mentioned somewhere in a thread, my first car out of HS was a 1965 Ford Galaxy (http://www.rx8club.com/#) 500, only a few years old at that time. What a fun piece of crap that was. A 289 V8 auto that had a glasspack muffler, chrome aircleaner, 4 barrel carb and a jacked up rear end... it looked pretty good. However it went like a slow fart lol, so I always lost streetlight challenges that came my way regularly because of the muffler sound. I spent more keeping it running for my 1 yr of ownership than I paid for it, and it was my everlasting lesson on FORDs (even though I had been brought up to love them by my well-intention, but sadly misinformed (conerning quality cars) father.

Sold it and bought a brand spanking new 1972 Toyota Mark II. One of the best cars I've owned. After 109K, sold that and bought the 1st Honda Accord brough to the US in 1976...it was about Mini size, then after that several more Honda Accords, a Mitsu, a Civic, and now the RX-8.

Moral of the story....and hopefully a lesson in something for you...I don't think there is anything at all unusual about my buying habits, Millions of people who are sensible, reasonable people from where ever by small cars in America. It has absolutely nothing to do with your wrong-headed idea that immigrants like small cars because the are 'used to them in their own countries' or whatever you were trying to say.

If you are basing your logic in this thread on ideas as wrong headed as these are, your arguments here are virtually baseless. I'm not flaming you.... I'm telling you you need to get out of the cabbage patch you've been getting your ideas from about people and cars and 'Americans' and discover the real world. maybe travel a bit... it's a big country. I not trying to insult you, just wake you up. Perhaps that's why so many have difficulty with many of your thoughts.

Spin.....I think you definitely misinterpreted what I meant. I am not saying that the reason the Asian brands had great success is do to immigrants only. I was merely saying the most immigrants have different values and expectations for automobiles than the your typical 5th or 6th gen American. Anyone that has immigrated from a nation where 80% of the automotive selection is 'small car' has a entirely different opinion of small cars then most Americans. In the two states that I have lived in as an adult, Minnesota and Michigan, I can say pretty confidently that the Asian and Indian people that I knew/know drive Asian cars. Not all.....but a majority in my experience. It's not because they hate Ford, GM and DCX....it's cause they are familiar with the Asian brands and smaller cars. Of course there are hundreds of thousands of 4th,5th,6th gen Americans that love small cars......but there are tens of millions of them that have no use for them. 'Small car' is really subjective and I hate using that term. The Accord is not a small car, the Camry is not a small car and these are Toyota's and Honda's biggest sellers in the US. Take a look at the line-up for Honda and Toyota in US markets.....4 models in the 'under 'C' size segment' and like 25 models in the 'over 'C' size segment' (including trucks). My main point is that true 'small cars' do not sell well in the US because 3rd,4th,etc gen Americans don't want them.

I never intended to insult anyone with my statement. I am not sure what experience others have had in other states.....but the things I just stated about immigrants to America with regards to automotive preference is the experience that I've had.

Again, I meant no disrespect to anyone......that is not the type of person that I am.

My simple question turned into a big big discussion :-O

They should put more resource into Rotary devlopement. 8 was the first car I personally "own". Im paying it outa my own savings. @ 25 years old I think its ok to have my own car.

I didnt know what Rotary was really like, I heard good things about the 7, so I got the 8.

At first I was "quite disppoainted" with its performance. but the more I drive it, the more I like it.

Now my question is, what would've happened. if Ford gave Mazda's more "resources" in the first place for Rotary Development ? Its gonna be alot better I think.

Mazda over the decades have already spent squillions developing the rotary to where is its today,as many know,GM,Mercedes,Toyota,NSU/Audi,Suzuki and others all had licences to manufacture and build the Wankel, ALL gave up because it was too hard, the Rotary engine has not changed that much since Ford's investment in the mid 70s. The RENISIS side exhaust porting is the major change since the original 13B of 73/74.
IMO the way oil prices are heading I don't think we will see little if any change to what we have now, everyones post's here on a "new" rotary are generally from hearsay or media gossip. There is talk of a 15B or a 3 rotor, ALL will use more fuel, complying with emissions is another task to overcome. There is also Direct Ingection...if you want do a search, Rotary God has posted some very good info on this very subject.
As I said I don't think you will see any major structural change in the Rotary as Its all been done before.

The beauty of the Rotary...as you say the" more you drive it the more you like it", I think you have now been infected by the "Wankel Virus", watch out its very difficult to medicate! :Freak_ani

Having said that we may see in a world car, the hydrogen powered rotary like the RX-8 now on sale/lease in Japan, but, thats a fuel matter, internal structure of the hydrogen rotary is still very closely aligned to the existing engine....just a lot more "ADD" ons and fuel mixers,valves, etc.

Then there is the Hybrid Mazda 5 Rotary....

IMO Hydrogen still has a very long way to go before its accepted by the masses.