An RX-8 Sport Wagon [Archive]

3_Times_Seven

04-23-2002, 11:33 AM

Having lived as a foreigner in Japan for 22 years and bought and driven 3 RX-7 rotary turbo cars (1986 - 1992) including on the famous Fuji Speedway where I took driving lessons by Terada and Yorino (two of the Japanese Le Mans drivers who won the 1991 Le Mans race in a rotary turbo Mazda), I am 100% enthusiastic about the RX-8 (although I wish the final version had looked more like the RX-01 prototype shown at the Tokyo Motor Show in 1999). I am also fully supportive of having a fully useable RX-8 Sportswagon. Guess it would be something like a Volvo 1800ES, but I hope it would be designed for true practicality, and not ONLY for the design. Subaru WRX wagon and Toyota Alteza (Toyota's small sportswagon in Japan) are not very useful.

At the same time i would like to say thanks to Mark Fields for improving the image of mazda (Donna Karan image???) and wish him luck when he now moves on to the Ford Premium division where he will be in charge of Volvo and Jaguar etc.

Keep on supporting Rotary Powered cars!!!

windahdah

05-10-2002, 04:57 PM

Look, I want to be able to haul my dog and 3 other people in fast efficient comfort and style. I want to be able to shift for myself and take corners fast. The RX-8 can to all but the dog part but an RX-8 Sportswagon, now there you have something! I think the lines of the RX-8 could easily be manipulated into a handsome agressive wagon, just close your eyes and envision it. Another option could be to make it into a hatchback with an optional "bubble" hatch back end (slap a new hatch on the existing hinges and it's a 5 door transformer hatch/wagon).

NOTA V6

05-10-2002, 09:25 PM

I just thought I heard the sound of 5,000 FD enthusiasts groaning. :D

MazdaMan182

05-10-2002, 10:05 PM

B*tch, if you want room for a dog in your car, buy a minivan!!

NOTA V6

05-10-2002, 11:26 PM

Welcome to the Forum. Please keep it friendly. ;)

He must be an FD enthusiast. :D

windahdah

05-13-2002, 11:46 AM

That's just the point Punk182, guys with real money like me want a sports car with comfy room for 4, not a minivan. This is the reason Mazda built the RX-8 as a 4 door in the first place my friend. No doubt it was people like you squealed like stuck pigs over the change from 2 to 4 seats but I think Mazda will reap huge rewards for challenging conventional sports car wisdom. As I see it now's the time for Mazda to really push the envelope with the RX-8 Sport Hatch/Wagon. If you don't want one don't buy one kid. Oh yeah, never mind you're propably only dreaming about one in the first place...now shoo off back to the skateboard forum where you belong.

NOTA V6

05-17-2002, 09:54 PM

Originally posted by spwolf
rx-8 will not have a station wagon... sorry, thats pretty much like saying that Miata will have an 4x4 off roader version.... rx-8 is a GT sports coupe with 4 doors
The RX-4 came in 2 door, 4 door and wagon configurations. ;)

The RX-7 having a 4x4 off road version would be more like the Miata having a 4x4 off road version, and I agree that neither of those options will happen, unless SUVs make a comeback in a very big way.

The RX-8 having a wagon version would be like the RX-4 having a wagon version. :) There is precedence for a 4 door rotary being offered in wagon configuration...

spwolf

05-17-2002, 10:18 PM

no it would not.. mazda would have to change a whole lot of RX-8, in order to produce wagon version... well, i guess we will see...I dont mind them offering wagon version...

red_base 95

05-20-2002, 10:55 AM

I just can't see an RX-8 sport wagon being a viable product line. I just don't believe there are enough folks out there to make this produt available.

Mazda already has a sport wagon of sorts with the Protege 5. Maybe a MazdaSpeed Protege5 would fill that niche for those who need more room than the RX-8, and more zoom than the basic Protege5.

The RX-8 is already a niche car, and to further reduce your target market would make it difficult to be profitable. Mazda (and Ford for that matter) are not in the business of building boutique automoblies with production less than 10,000 priced for the mass market (i.e less than $40K). Ford already has a boutique builder in Aston Martin.

Toadman

05-23-2002, 07:14 PM

The 220hp Mazda6 5-door will come with AWD soon. That area is covered. :)

windahdah

05-28-2002, 05:21 PM

I'm aware that Mazda already offers the Protege and will soon offer the 6 in Wagon form, but they simply won't do for my money.

Firstly both are fwd (yes an AWD version of the 6 will be offered I know but still..) based platforms with weight biased towards the front axle (read chronic UNDERSTEER, yawn). I want a real sports car with 50/50 weight distribution and low curb weight like the RX-8.

Number two, the ROTARY is a huge attraction...The whimpy and noisy 4 banger in the Protege and the massaged Taurus motor in the 6 are pretty weak compared to competition like Nissan 4 and 6 cylinder models. The 4 banger is a real Mazda motor but the 6 cylinder motor is a Ford product it's likely to be unreliable and crude.

Three the Protege is too small and rough, the 6 is plain looking where the RX-8 is gorgeous. I think a wagon version could be gorgeous too.

I guess I'll have to wait to see if they build a wagon version of the new Infinity G35. It produces way more torque anyway and just as much horsepower as the RX-8 but is definitely not as cool looking.

As I see it the fact that the 6 and Protege wagons are around only make it more likely for Mazda to continue the family with the RX-8.

I'm surpised by all the negative remarks in this thread regarding wagons. Why wouldn't you want more room and utility than less? Stop being so vain and let's have a little common sense pragmatism around here. Wagon's RULE! Small minded people are the one's who suck.

Jerome81

05-28-2002, 10:08 PM

I'll chime in about the 6 V6.

While the Duratec engine is a Ford design, it is actually a VERY good engine. I believe it has proven quite reliable and durable. All in all I would say it is nearly as good an engine as the others offered in the class, but at a level just below everyone else from Japan. This is as it stands in the Taurus.

However, the Duratec has been heavily massaged by Mazda. This is why the engine now has S-VT (valve timing) and swirl control, and makes 220hp instead of 200hp as in the Escape/Tribute/Taurus. I would guess that it has been done for the better, and it will be much more refined than the Taurus engine.

Also, remember that this basic engine design powers the brand new Aston Martin V12 Vanquish. It is a 6.0L V12 that is basically two 3.0L Duratecs stuck together. The car has amazing power, and nearly every magazine that has tested the Vanquish say that the V12 motor is one of the best supercar engines they've ever experienced.

So, while it does come from the Ford basic design, the Duratec is actually a very good engine. The massaging by Mazda will only make it better.

Now what I think Mazda really needs in the new 6 is a 6 speed manual rather than 5. With the new Accord likely having a six speed option, Mazda should jump in with that now, rather than play catch up later. Plus it would give even more credo to the whole sporting image the 6 is all about.

windahdah

06-06-2002, 04:59 PM

My friends I would like to point out to all you wagon snobs out there:

1) The popularity of big heavy slow sloppy "SUV's" reflects the fact that a large proportion of buyers require more utility and space than is found in most cars.

2) Wouldn't you rather be stuck behind an RX-8 sportwagon (or any of the other sporty wagons on the market) than some huge 3 ton battering ram on wheels?

3) Woundn't you "SUV" buyers out there rather get your utility and some REAL sport in the mix for once? Wouldn't you rather drive a responsive and well balanced car as opposed to a clutzy dangerous TRUCK? Wouldn't you like to get better than 15 MPG? Do know what the terms independent suspension, rigid chassis, curb weight, unibody construction, 50/50 weight distribution and low center of gravity mean?

Rather than protesting this concept I think all sports car fans should be cheering for it, look at the alternatives.

D C

06-07-2002, 12:33 AM

I don't know about a wagon version of the RX-8. I really don't think I would like it, but you never know. There are some cool wagons out nowdays, but there are also alot of them that totally reek of heinousity.

elisemk1

06-10-2002, 09:41 AM

I would buy a RX-8 station wagon for sure...

most SUV's are sold because the people want a different way of a station wagon, not because they need cars with offroad abilities. The sportscar / station wagon mix is the next step. I hope Mazda will be the first to follow this track...

Stefan Janssen
Germany

KayakDaddy

06-27-2002, 01:52 AM

Sport wagons are very versatile. They combine usefulness with high performance. I think some manufactures make the mistake of thinking if you need a wagon, you don't need a high performance car. I'm an agressive driver when I'm driving by myself and spend a lot of time on curvy mountain roads with a whitewater kayak on my roof. I like cars that can do a lot of things.

Before I got turned on to the upcoming RX-8 I actually looked at both the WRX and the IS300. Subaru messed up by not putting the flared fenders on the WRX wagon and Lexus messed up by only offering the the Sportcross with a automatic. Plus their manual only has 5 gears. Neither was perfect for my needs but they are both great cars. I may get flamed but I think they look good too. They are certainly unique. :)

windahdah

06-28-2002, 02:07 PM

I'm so glad to see there are many of you that want to see an RX8 Sportwagon like I do. There is a huge void in the market and--as KayakDaddy pointed out--no one is serving this market. Current versions of "SUV's" are really like the "cross trainer" shoe, a shoe supposedly good for everything shoe but is't really good for nothing. If you want to go running buy a running shoe, if you want to play basketball buy a basketball shoe, if you're going cycling buy a cycling shoe. By the same token if you want to go off roading buy an off roader, if you want a road car buy a road car. The problem is that IF you want to drive on the road and haul your dog and gear and family/friends you're caught out buying another Ford Exploder SUV or paying $45K for an Audi or Mercedes sportwagon (the WRX wagon notwithstanding). The only people I hear objecting to the RX8 Sportswagon are the Boyracer types that want to see this car become another swoopy Speed Racer fashon victim-mobile. Remember a car is NOT a fashion statement, it is a mode of transportation. In the end the best performing car wins, not the most boy-racy looking one. If you boys out there want a boy-racy looking car go buy a Pontiac Firebird before production ends. In the meantime Mazda, break the automotive paradigm again with the advent of the RX-8 SPORTWAGON! Build it and they will come.

Sven

06-28-2002, 10:14 PM

I would choose an RX-8 Sportswagon over the current design. And keep it a true sportswagon by offering the same engine configurations as in RX-8. In other words, if there is to be a 3 rotor or turbocharged variant of motor, offer it in the wagon.

Sven

windahdah

07-30-2002, 11:12 AM

Have you seen the brand new Alfa-Romeo BRERA coupe? I've Posted a shot of it below. It's perhaps the coolest looking car in decades. Only the RX-8 is anything near as cool but IMAGINE THIS. Mount a very BRERA like wagon back end on the RX-8 and you have our very own ($25-30K) sportwagon wonder. It would look much like the Brera I think but offer 4 place seating and a large stowage. Can someone out there work some photoshop wonder on this??

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106&stc=1

windahdah

07-30-2002, 11:13 AM

See Attachment.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=107&stc=1

ZoomZoom

07-30-2002, 05:35 PM

Very nice! :D

zoom44

07-30-2002, 05:46 PM

looks kinda like the rear end of the porshe 928s. more of a hatch than a wagon. as far as the coolest looking car in decades? i think you should take another look at the aston martin vanquish.
but thats just my opinion

red_base 95

07-31-2002, 06:54 AM

That Alfa is a very sharp car. Very similar to the BMW M coupe, but a bit larger. We'll never see it for sale in the states though.

The Saab 9-3X concept that was at the auto shows last year could make it though.

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=reviews&loc_code=index&content_code=03154418

This car is likely to be built. Pretty sharp in book.

ekrampitzjr

07-31-2002, 02:58 PM

Mazda should consider an RX-8 sportwagon. I am forced to stick to one vehicle, and I have hauling and carrying needs that a regular sedan, let alone a sports car, does not adequately address. For me a wagon is an excellent compromise. With the looks of the RX-8 as it is now, I'll bet Mazda could make a really nice looking wagon version, but it would have to look just right to sell.

Barring that, I would love to see a version of the Tribute (small SUV) with a RENESIS rotary. It could be a high-end version to supplement or even replace the V-6. The more vehicles with the rotary engine, the better. But let's push for at least an RX-8 wagon.

Finally, keep in mind that there were wagon versions of the RX-3 and RX-4. The RX-3 wagon in particular sold well and outlived the sedan version in the US; it was available until 1976. I wish I still had mine, which I bought as a teenager. There is ample precedent for rotary wagons. I'm uncomfortable with keeping the rotary in just one car, as was done with the RX-7. (By the way, the RX-7 goes out of production in Japan in August 2002.) If that one car doesn't sell well . . .

Immi

07-31-2002, 03:05 PM

I'm not a wagon fan... if mazda made a wagon RX-8.. I wouldn't buy any RX-8.

Most of time people hardly use the space a wagon has.. so just rent a uhaul.. im sure the 162 lb/ft torque can hadle it :P

NOTA V6

07-31-2002, 03:31 PM

I used to think that way too. Matter of fact, I used to think Saturns were POSs. :D

Now I have a '99 Saturn wagon (my wife's car... really ;) ) and use the extra space all the time. And my opinion of the quality of Saturns has taken a 180° turn. They are still fugly IMHO, but they get good mileage, are dependable transportation, and even our wagon has a (believe it or not) sporty feel in the steering and acceleration. It needs better tires though...

I wouldn't buy an RX-8 wagon, but I am sure that there would be a market for it if Mazda was so inclined. The RX-4 wagon did fairly well. :)

T-RX

08-03-2002, 07:08 PM

Oh my gentle jesus....are you serious?

Why don't they just add a truck bed to the back and give it 6 inch wheels?...you can burn in yuppie hell

3_Times_Seven

08-04-2002, 04:31 AM

Just take a look at the present Alfa Romeo 156 Sportwagon and also the (now discontinued) Volvo 1800ES. These vehichles prove you can have a sport wagon variant of a sports car which very much add to and complement the image of the original car.

I owned two second generation RX-7 (FC-3S) and one FD-3S. the FC-3S was by far the more practical car and I used it as a virtual mini wagon on many occasions. It was amazing what it could carry. Unfortunately the FD-3S had a much too shallow luggage compartment.

By the way, if any of you who complain about a RX-8 sport wagon variant really want to be purists, you should ALSO not accept that the RX-8 is going to be a 4-door sedan.

However, the fact that the RX-8 is going to be just that (a 4 door sedan), the step to also make a sport wagon (like the beautiful Alfa Romeo 156 Sportwagon) is a very small one.

Why not have a choice for us who have families and a need to carry stuff?

cOz

08-04-2002, 12:20 PM

If an estate is a viable option to the rx8 line, why would anyone care if they added one? Evryone should remember this is not the RX7 replacement that will come if the 8 sells well. The bigger the line with rotaries the better. By the way, the new 6 wagon looks great.

windahdah

08-05-2002, 01:53 PM

I'd like to point out that while I feel that the RX-8's existing lines could easily be extended in to a VERY handsome Sports Wagon it would have to maintain a certain level of utility to sell well. Although the above mini-truck bed comment was in pure jest it's not a bad idea and certainly not hard to do...Have you seen the new removeable rear roof sections on the new GMC Envoy XUV? I've pasted a pic below. I would love to see that kind of innovative practicality employed here too. Bottom line Mazda, make the wagon look good but give it enough room in the back and consider adding a removeable rear roof/backlight wit tailgate option. Sporty and Practical!

zoom44

08-05-2002, 02:31 PM

i think it would be fine to incorporate a "mid-gate" design in a future rx-something truck i just can't see it on an rx8. it's (imo) not the direction this car is taking or should.

irresistibo

09-25-2002, 06:44 PM

I think a RX-8 wagon could look nice, i mean look what they did with the Protege, i think the wagon looks at least 3 times better than the sedan. maybe a wagon would look better with the RX-8 too!! gosh, what are you people thinking? C'mon a wagon for a sports car, who would actually buy that. You wouldnt be caught dead in that car.

Quick_lude

09-25-2002, 07:18 PM

How are the sales of the WRX wagon? There should be a good measure of the demand for a utility wagon with a high hp engine.

zoom44

09-25-2002, 08:49 PM

and the protege5 is selling like rabbits breed! they are all over the place around here.:)

wakeech

09-25-2002, 11:48 PM

Quick_lude, in response to your Impreza wagon question, i see MANY more wagons around than even the sedans, but maybe i just notice them more... and again, i'm not exactly sampling this statisitcally.. ;)

oh, and that's right!! Mazda already has the Protege5 out, and with the 6 wagon, how would the 8 fit in there too??
maybe that'd just be too many...

btw, i'm TOTALLY against the idea... just give the ol' 323 (or Demio as they call it in Japan) the rotary... :D THAT would be one sport compact hatchback :D

Quick_lude

09-26-2002, 12:21 AM

The Protege5 and regular Imprezza wagon do not cost $40K+ Cnd.. which the RX-8 wagon would. Different market.

windahdah

09-26-2002, 01:10 PM

The very fact that this discussion polarizes people into either the "I hate it" or "I love it" camps outght to catch Mazda's interest on this concept.

The reason that the Subaru WRX wagon is selling so well is that it has created it's own marketing niche. It's the only true Sports Wagon currently out there. Yes Mazda has the Protege 5 wagon that sells very well and will soon have the 6 wagon too, but that does not mean that the RX-8 SportWagon wouldn't fit the portfolio nicely. The important distinction is that the Protege 5 and 6 wagons are SPORTY wagons, not true SPORTS wagons. The RX-8 wagon would take on the WRX Wagon directly offering more room, power and luxury for not much more coin. That sounds like a solid marketing plan to me...

wakeech

09-26-2002, 01:14 PM

sure the Protege5 isn't that much Quick_lude, but what about the 6 wagon that is coming out... would that be cheaper too??
i guess that the 8 would be in the same price braket as the Volvo and Audi, right??

Donny Boy

09-27-2002, 04:45 PM

A 2 door wagon or a 4 door wagon? If the design is kept fresh and on the edge, a wagon would be great. Think of the Volvo 1800 ES and the Jensen GT. Both unique yet sporty designs.

Quick_lude

09-28-2002, 03:01 AM

Originally posted by wakeech
the 6 wagon that is coming out... would that be cheaper too??
i guess that the 8 would be in the same price braket as the Volvo and Audi, right??
Well assuming the RX-8 wagon would be around $40K Cnd.. that's above the cost of the WRX wagon but also below the prices of BMW, Audi and Mercedes.. It would be in a class of it's own. The only problem I forsee is that most likely the wagons would have more auto sales and that means a detuned engine. :(

irresistibo

09-28-2002, 03:31 AM

DOnt think a RX8 wagon would work. If you notice in pics, theres a huge box that runs accross the middle of the cabin about a foot high. I believe alot of important stuff runs through the car under that box. I dont think a RX8 could be made to seat more than 4 people, what would be the niche of a 4 seating sports wagon, wagons in my opinion must be alittle more practical than that, ie seat at leat 5 people and carry their cargo efficiently.

For my group of friends a 4wd sports wagon is awesome because it can haul 4 adults + one little brother and their snowboarding gear to the slopes in style, and you can do some fun rally style driving in the mountains on your way their. On top of that it can keep up with most stuff on the road. The RX8 would have much less of that utility thrown into the mix.

windahdah

09-28-2002, 06:35 PM

Why would someone only want a 4 seat wagon? The WRX wagon sells like mad here, nearly at the pace of the Sedan it seems. And yes my friend the $45k+ US for an Audi, BMW or Mercedes wagon makes for a nice car but we're $30k for the RX-8, BIG difference there. Besides again I feel that by virtue of their 3500 lb. curb weights that the Audi, Mercedes, Volvo or Saab or even BMW wagons hardly count as true SPORTSWAGONS (yes, they are "Sporty" but not "Sports wagons). The Mazda would be alone in it's category with a sub 3000lb curb weight. As for utility of the wagon it may not compare to that of the Lincoln Navigator but it would certainly be greater than that of the RX-8 coupe/sedan. I also don't buy the Automatic argument, as I personally would only consider a stick (or perhaps a CVT).

73JPS

10-01-2002, 12:39 AM

If you want a rotary wagon, canvas for Mazda to put the rotary into an existing wagon, or start a new line of rotary family vehicles! I know that this forum has decided that the '8 is not a replacement for the '7, but until and if the new '7 arrives, it is the closest thing Mazda has to the spirit of the '7. To me, you wreck what the '8 is about if you start offering it as a line of cars rather than the one unique car it is supposed to be! This car is going to be pretty focused: it ain't some sort of sporty family sedan! This is a sports car with a couple of unique features. It is supposed to be Mazda's image leader.

The RX-8 should be as single a vehicle as the the RX-7 that preceded it was! The RX-8 should not be a product line like the 6 or Protege!!!:mad: :mad:

pelucidor

10-01-2002, 09:51 AM

IF the RX-8 is a raging success and IF Mazda find they are taking sales from BMW/Audi/Lexus/MB then it might make sense to compete more effectively against them with a wagon version of the RX-8 (and then a convertible, and then a 4wd version, and then a coupe, and then a SUV (BMW X3 anyone), etc). Yuk - this path leads to dilution of value for a 'halo' car.

If Mazda feels they must release a wagon version to be competitive, they shouldn't do this until the RX-7 has been released (maybe 2-3 years from now). Those fans who would love a rotary engined sports car but would never dream of sharing that sports-car platform with a wagon (or suv/truck etc) can then upgrade to the RX-7, keeping their vehicle 'pure sports-car' and making Mazda more money from repeat buyers.

But personally I think it would make more sense to install the rotary into other existing cars and wagons such as the 6 a few years down the line. If Mazda really believes in the rotary (and if it's massively successful in the RX-8) and cheaper to make and more reliable than a V6 then they should put it EVERYWHERE.

windahdah

10-22-2002, 11:56 AM

I don't get why people think that an RX8 Wagon would "ruin" the image of the line. I also don't agree that Mazda should wait to add a wagon until after the re-introduction of the RX7. Engineering a wagon version would require very little effort from Mazda (simply add a new rear end to the car, perhaps modify the cargo area), whereas launching the new RX7 would require re-working the entire chassis of the RX8.

I hope Mazda is not afraid of alienating buyers who are would not buy an RX8 simply because it's "image" had been tarnished by the presence of a wagon in the line. I would think that those are exactly the kind of buyers that Mazda doesn't want. I think Mazda's new position as the Japanese BMW/Porsche appeals to people with more sophistication that that. Criminy, even PORSCHE has an SUV our now, as if you needed more proof that car buyers with MONEY want a fair dose of UTILITY in their sports cars. If you really would not be interested in the RX8 if it had a wagon stablemate please go buy an Audi TT. Now there's a car that's all "image" and no substance, you'll get along famously.

Let's all try to remember that a car is a means of transportation and not a fashion statement. Some cars are faster than others, some go around corners better and some haul all your stuff better than others. So what's wrong with wanting a car that does all 3 of those things well?

If you regard your car as that large of a part of your "image" then you have no self confidence in the first place. Perhaps you should go to the GYM or to a shrink or back to school or something to work on your self esteem. Driving a flashy sports car does not make you more of a man. I laugh at guys that need Loud Harleys or who feel the need to peel out in souped up sports cars in order to appeal to women. I'm sorry but if you want to attract more babes get to work on improving yourself, not your car.

73JPS

10-22-2002, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by windahdah

Let's all try to remember that a car is a means of transportation and not a fashion statement. Some cars are faster than others, some go around corners better and some haul all your stuff better than others. So what's wrong with wanting a car that does all 3 of those things well?

If you regard your car as that large of a part of your "image" then you have no self confidence in the first place. Perhaps you should go to the GYM or to a shrink or back to school or something to work on your self esteem. Driving a flashy sports car does not make you more of a man. I laugh at guys that need Loud Harleys or who feel the need to peel out in souped up sports cars in order to appeal to women. I'm sorry but if you want to attract more babes get to work on improving yourself, not your car.

Yo, Windy-boy! To believe that a person who likes a specific image with their automobile is therefore a person of low self confidence is specious reasoning. I have my family car, thank you very much, and I drive it for family things. I would like my sports car to be a sports car, and would prefer that the RX8 be a singular model, not a model line. It is simply my preference, and has nowt to do with my "self image", healthy or not.

Personally, I believe that having an RX8 wagon dilutes the image of the vehicle, not ruins it. Is there a 350Z wagon? A 911 wagon? A Mustang wagon? A Corvette wagon? An NSX wagon? A Viper wagon? Jeez, is there going to be a Tiburon wagon? These cars, some arguably sportier than the RX8, some less, are all image leaders for their respective manufacturers. If the RX8 is to become a line rather than a model, I will agree with pelucidor in saying that the RX-7 should be released first.

Yes, if I am going to plonk down 55K Canadian (tax in) on a vehicle, I would like to think that there will be a certain amount of value to the image of the vehicle as well as the to the vehicle itself. (I just checked: Family? Yup, still there. Home? Yes... Health? Caring? Love? Responsibility? Yep, yep, yep, yep, all still there. Wait, let me check my shorts: Yeah, its till there too... hmmm, I'm still wondering why my view on this is somehow supposed to mean my self image is bad...) :rolleyes:

PatrickB

10-22-2002, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by 73JPS

Personally, I believe that having an RX8 wagon dilutes the image of the vehicle, not ruins it. Is there a 350Z wagon? A 911 wagon? A Mustang wagon? A Corvette wagon? An NSX wagon? A Viper wagon? Jeez, is there going to be a Tiburon wagon?

Or, god forbid, an Impreza WRX wagon?!?!?

:rolleyes:

73JPS

10-22-2002, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by PatrickB

Or, god forbid, an Impreza WRX wagon?!?!?

:rolleyes:

Subaru's entire marketing and image is rally, rally, rally. And when they get done marketing that, they market a bit of rally, I think. The WRX Sport wagon is a perfect image leader for that line. (besides, its the best looking one of the bunch):)

PatrickB

10-22-2002, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by 73JPS

Subaru's entire marketing and image is rally, rally, rally. And when they get done marketing that, they market a bit of rally, I think. The WRX Sport wagon is a perfect image leader for that line. (besides, its the best looking one of the bunch):)

My point is that, like the WRX, the RX-8 is a four-door car with a bit of a bent toward practicality, not a two-door two-seat car like the other cars you mentioned. You're comparing apples to oranges. (I'm not saying that the RX-8 is directly comparable to the WRX - it's not - but they both have a practicality bent that your post ignored.)

Don't want a wagon? Don't get a wagon. If someone is upset at the mere existence of a wagon version of their car even if they don't have the wagon, then they have bigger problems that the fact that a wagon version of their car exists.

-Patrick

PatrickB

10-22-2002, 01:12 PM

windahdah

10-22-2002, 01:21 PM

Sorry Buddy, I didn't mean to question your Masculinity, only your lack of depth.

You are right, none of those cars have wagon versions. On the other hand NONE of them has a (usable) back seat either. You probaly find the concept of the RX8 (what with a REAL back seat) incredibly offensive. Why would you be interested in a practical sports car that could haul 3 other members of the family you mention? Furthermore why would you be interested in a wagon version of said car that's even more functional yet? Seriously go buy that Audi TT you so desire, it's only a little more money and has a TEENY back seat and tons of "image".

Instead wait, I know....When Mazda launches the RX8 Sportswagon and you don't like it....DON'T BUY ONE. I'll wave and smile nicely as I pass your TT (probably on the side of the road broken down) in my RX8 Wagon (with 4 passengers and my dog in the back).

73JPS

10-22-2002, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by PatrickB

My point is that, like the WRX, the RX-8 is a four-door car with a bit of a bent toward practicality, not a two-door two-seat car like the other cars you mentioned. You're comparing apples to oranges. (I'm not saying that the RX-8 is directly comparable to the WRX - it's not - but they both have a practicality bent that your post ignored.)

Don't want a wagon? Don't get a wagon. If someone is upset at the mere existence of a wagon version of their car even if they don't have the wagon, then they have bigger problems that the fact that a wagon version of their car exists.

-Patrick

Y'know, respectfully, I get kind of confused when people solicit opinions and then make odd personal judgements about those opinions.

If I may speak for myself, I will simply say that I will not sell my RX8 if a wagon version of it comes out. I won't be particularly upset, either, but I will be dissappointed. Why? I guess I am not sure that I can quantify that. On the other hand, I am fairly certain that I won't have to run off to the shrink just because it is so: in other words, I don't think I have bigger problems just because I feel that a wagon version of the RX8 will somehow dilute the image of what I wanted the car to be for me .

Now, please don't make me cry again...:D :D

PatrickB

10-22-2002, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by 73JPS

Y'know, respectfully, I get kind of confused when people solicit opinions and then make odd personal judgements about those opinions.

Well, this thread started with someone saying "wouldn't a wagon be neat" and then getting attacked for it, so...

If I may speak for myself, I will simply say that I will not sell my RX8 if a wagon version of it comes out. I won't be particularly upset, either, but I will be dissappointed. Why? I guess I am not sure that I can quantify that.

You know, there are people who could help you with that... Just kidding :D :D :D I do know what you mean, actually. A wagon version just doesn't fit the mental model you had for the car. On the other hand, I would be extremely surprised if a wagon version came out. The Mazda6 already has 5-door and wagon versions planned.

You know, a Mazda6 MPS Turbocharged AWD Sport Wagon would be pretty awesome. :)

Edit: fixed quotation fonts

73JPS

10-22-2002, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by PatrickB

Well, this thread started with someone saying "wouldn't a wagon be neat" and then getting attacked for it, so...

Yes, actually, you are quite correct. After I wiped the tears off of my keyboard and monitor, I was able to see that Windahdah did not in fact solicit opinions. Nevertheless, what has been said since has been quite entertaining: this thread has illicited quite passionate discussion.:cool:

pelucidor

10-22-2002, 04:43 PM

I can't think of a single car company that has ever brought out wagon and sedan versions of a new car at the same time except perhaps Subaru (a company more famous for wagons than sedans so it might have been the reverse with them). Think about it: Audi, BMW, Ford, Lexus, Aston Martin (Shooting Brake), Mercedes, Toyota VW, etc all had wagon versions 1-3 years after the 4-door was reasonably successful (i.e. there was a chance the wagon might sell).

I can't think of a single company that has a wagon version of their top 4-door vehicle in the line-up (BMW 7 series, Mercedes S class, Ford Crown Victoria, Lexus LS, Audi A8, VW W8 or Phaeton, Toyota Avalon etc).

Do you think a company coming out of financial problems like Mazda would dare to risk a wagon at the same time as their hugely risky rotary with odd doors? Especially on their top of the line car? As I said, perhaps a few years from now IF the RX-8 is very successful then Mazda might have the money to tool up to build and test a wagon version, although personally I would prefer a convertible first.

The RX-8 is meant to be the first 4-door SPORTS CAR, not a SPORTS WAGON. Lexus tried bringing out a Sports Wagon 1 year after the IS300 was released - it wasn't very succesful even though it looks good for a wagon. Personally I couldn't care less if Mazda makes a wagon version of the RX-8 (just as I didn't care that Lexus, Audi, BMW etc made wagon versions of their sedans that I owned). But Mazda DOES care about spending extra money to risk diluting their image car in the first year or two....

73JPS

10-22-2002, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by windahdah
Sorry Buddy, I didn't mean to question your Masculinity, only your lack of depth.

You are right, none of those cars have wagon versions. On the other hand NONE of them has a (usable) back seat either. You probaly find the concept of the RX8 (what with a REAL back seat) incredibly offensive. Why would you be interested in a practical sports car that could haul 3 other members of the family you mention? Furthermore why would you be interested in a wagon version of said car that's even more functional yet? Seriously go buy that Audi TT you so desire, it's only a little more money and has a TEENY back seat and tons of "image".

Instead wait, I know....When Mazda launches the RX8 Sportswagon and you don't like it....DON'T BUY ONE. I'll wave and smile nicely as I pass your TT (probably on the side of the road broken down) in my RX8 Wagon (with 4 passengers and my dog in the back).

Windy, windy, windy. *sigh*. As it turns out, I really dislike the TT. And I don't think that a sports car is not a sports car just because it has a back seat. I just happen to believe that the RX8 is a going to be a pretty focused car that happens to have a back seat and a cool rear door concept, as opposed to an almost family sedan that wants to pass as a sports car. The structure of this car has been reported to be stiffer than that of the previous RX-7 (Road&Track), and the handling (in the same article) to be pretty sharp; the car is not going to be much slower than the previous RX7, either. Nevertheless, if you would like to cram four passengers into a car that will only seat three passsengers, and make your poor dog suffer in the back of what would probably be a pretty impractical wagon, (I guess he can stick his nose out those pop out windows, eh?) be my guest.

I'll wave and smile nicely as I pass your RX8 Wagon (probably overloaded on the side of the road) in my family car, secure in the knowledge that most products that try to be a "Jack-of-all-trades" usually end up being Masters of none. (I'll bet I catch heat for that one...)

I suppose I just don't think that this car is going to be as practical as some here may believe it is going to be. Yeah, its got the doors, its got the back seat, but I don't think she's gonna haul three kids, a load o' groceries, and the family dog... at least, not all at once.:D

pelucidor

10-22-2002, 05:55 PM

Originally posted by 73JPS
I suppose I just don't think that this car is going to be as practical as some here may believe it is going to be. Yeah, its got the doors, its got the back seat, but I don't think she's gonna haul three kids, a load o' groceries, and the family dog... at least, not all at once.:D

I just need it to be practical enough that I can say to my wife:-"look the baby seat goes there if there's an emergency AND your SUV isn't available". Otherwise it's a single-seater F1 vehicle with AC (no stereo though as the BOSE is too crappy to count).

windahdah

10-22-2002, 06:07 PM

OK, for starters I feel that launching a new RX7 would be FAR more risky for Mazda than would be a simple wagon version of the RX8. Secondly not all people can afford two vehicles like my canadian friend. I personally own 2 cars, one a sedan the other a highly modified suzuki sidekick off roader. I chuckle when I see people in HUGE SUV's that are all toughed up for off roading. They are eye candy and can't compete off road with the real thing. I admit that my little Suzuki can't haul the kids like a Suburban BUT I have a Nissan Maxima SE for that purpose (see we do have something in common).

I agree that the concept of the "Cross Trainer Shoe" is bunk. Surely the Jack of all trades master of none adage is correct but how does that apply to the RX8 Wagon? It will be no more slow than the regular RX8 and should handle and stop as just as well, so where's the rub? Surely it won't be as able to tote the kids and camping gear as the Suburban, but it will do better than would the sedan/coupe no? That's the point....low rooflines and small back seats have been the eye candy of the sports car world for eons. The RX8 breaks that mold and says you can have sports car performance and handling without sacrificing your back seat. The RX8 wagon says you can have your back seat and some considerable stowage capacity too (especially with back seats folded flat). If you ask me the RX8 wagon would be the ultimate expression of this kind of thinking....The Practical Sports car.

Just think canada man...you could sell the sports car and the sedan, buy an RX8 Wagon and whole family is just as happy. With the spare money you could get that REALLY loud Harley you got all those tattoo's for.;)

73JPS

10-22-2002, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by windahdah
OK, for starters I feel that launching a new RX7 would be FAR more risky for Mazda than would be a simple wagon version of the RX8. Secondly not all people can afford two vehicles like my canadian friend. I personally own 2 cars, one a sedan the other a highly modified suzuki sidekick off roader. I chuckle when I see people in HUGE SUV's that are all toughed up for off roading. They are eye candy and can't compete off road with the real thing. I admit that my little Suzuki can't haul the kids like a Suburban BUT I have a Nissan Maxima SE for that purpose (see we do have something in common).
...
Just think canada man...you could sell the sports car and the sedan, buy an RX8 Wagon and whole family is just as happy. With the spare money you could get that REALLY loud Harley you got all those tattoo's for.;)

I am told that the Canadian identity is to be far more docile and polite than I seem to be here... wow, my first cyber scrap!;)

Tatoos aren't for me, I just sold my 2000 ZX6R, and I ain't much of a Harley man (although I have worked with about a dozen guys who have them, and most of them seemed fairly sure of themselves...). Like I said before, I just don't think the RX8 (wagon or otherwise) is going to be that practical, and I hate to see it sort of end up lumped in with the family sedan crowd.

So are you telling me its going to easier to hope for an RX8 wagon and sell your Maxima SE than it is to convince your wife to take on a third car?;)

And while anything I may have written that is the least bit offensive has been said totally tongue in cheek (:D ), and nothing you have said honestly offends me at all (all in good fun, my man), please do put a capital "C" on "Canada" or "Canadian" : we have one tenth yer population, but we are still a country. I mean, you even put a capital "H" on Harley...:D

pelucidor

10-22-2002, 11:42 PM

Mazda will not release a wagon version of the RX-8 at the same time as the sedan. So in your opinion they should only release the wagon so that they will have a REALLY PRACTICAL SPORTS CAR so that you can be happy. Never mind they would have to redesign the car to make the rear seats fold down, probably remove the center tunnel, probably replace the swing doors with regular doors etc. Very easy and cheap to do I am sure...

Most people in the USA don't really like the idea of a wagon (no matter how good it looks), so when Mazda goes bust 6 months later having made a few hundred sales there will be no chance of ever getting the sedan or a convertible or an RX-7 - but you will be happy...

Mazda needs to have massive success with the RX-8 before they can give us wagon or convertible versions of it and other cool cars like the RX-7. If they make enough money on the RX-8 sedan they can afford to sell the RX-7 halo car for a smaller profit margin and still sell way more of these than any RX-8 wagon (there is fanatical devotion to the RX-7 and guaranteed buyers, can you say the same exists for any brand of wagon?). I trust Mazda to make the right business decision.

Hercules

10-23-2002, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by pelucidor
Mazda will not release a wagon version of the RX-8 at the same time as the sedan. So in your opinion they should only release the wagon so that they will have a REALLY PRACTICAL SPORTS CAR so that you can be happy. Never mind they would have to redesign the car to make the rear seats fold down, probably remove the center tunnel, probably replace the swing doors with regular doors etc. Very easy and cheap to do I am sure...

Most people in the USA don't really like the idea of a wagon (no matter how good it looks), so when Mazda goes bust 6 months later having made a few hundred sales there will be no chance of ever getting the sedan or a convertible or an RX-7 - but you will be happy...

Mazda needs to have massive success with the RX-8 before they can give us wagon or convertible versions of it and other cool cars like the RX-7. If they make enough money on the RX-8 sedan they can afford to sell the RX-7 halo car for a smaller profit margin and still sell way more of these than any RX-8 wagon (there is fanatical devotion to the RX-7 and guaranteed buyers, can you say the same exists for any brand of wagon?). I trust Mazda to make the right business decision.
The 6 will be their wagon.

I don't see the point of a rotary wagon, the low torque hurts a wagon that needs a little bit of pull because you're using it to haul stuff around... but hey, who am I say rule it out :)

I'd hate to see it though, it's really like taking a corvette and making a wagon out of it. Ruins the reputation of your car :(

73JPS

10-23-2002, 01:06 AM

Originally posted by Hercules

I'd hate to see it though, it's really like taking a corvette and making a wagon out of it. Ruins the reputation of your car :(

Well Herc, I'm with you, but it looks like we have to be careful. Previous posts have indicated that if we are worrying about this image thingy with relation to cars, it might mean we have a self-image problem.:D

Spining Ncnratr

10-23-2002, 05:19 AM

Only thing I'm adding is Ford is still kicking themselfs for not making the SHO wagon. If they had then the SHO would still be in production.

Sputnik

10-23-2002, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Spining Ncnratr
Only thing I'm adding is Ford is still kicking themselfs for not making the SHO wagon. If they had then the SHO would still be in production. :confused: What makes you think that a SHO wagon would have kept the SHO Taurus alive?

---jps

Spining Ncnratr

10-23-2002, 09:53 AM

Because my Uncle worked for Ford at Walton Hills stamping plant
and I got to see background and consumer feed back reports on it
But yes the RX-8 has enough versatility to not be a Wagon but look at BMW and their sport wagons of the 3 and 5 series.

Sputnik

10-23-2002, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by Spining Ncnratr
Because my Uncle worked for Ford at Walton Hills stamping plant
and I got to see background and consumer feed back reports on it... Interesting... Were they wanting more power, or were they actually interested in a sport wagon with an upgraded suspension? Or were the feed back reports not that detailed?

---jps

windahdah

10-23-2002, 11:07 AM

You people are OFF YOUR ROCKERS! It's tiny impractical sports cars with no room inside that GOT MAZDA INTO FINANCIAL TROUBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE. That's why Ford bought half of the company. Your assertions that an RX8 wagon would get Mazda into deeper financial trouble is crazy. And as for how difficult you seem to think it will be, well I disagree--it's easy to turn a sedan into a wagon. As for Torque well 162lb/ft. is enough for any sub 3000 lb. car.

The Europeans seem very keen on the Wagon concept. This is largely because in Europe WAGONS are everywhere. They don't equate the word wagon with Ford Country Squire or Chevy Caprice Classic like so many NA's do. Our Wagons used to SUCK and they all died in the late 70's and were replaced with Minivans and then with SUV's (whick suck even worse). Forward looking individuals recognize that wagons offer all the benefits of cars with more practicality.

I'm terribly sorry if the RX8 Wagon doesn't fit with your concept of what the car should be, or if it offends you somehow. On the other hand I get the feeling that most of the fanatics here on this forum really just want the return of the RX7. Perhaps those people should go start the new RX7 forum or something...you can all argue about how a back seat is entirely useless and stuff. As for those of us that want a no-compromise sports car, we'd love to see the RX8 Wagon.

Top Cars for the "Image Conscious":

1) Audi TT
2) Mini Cooper
3) VW New Beetle
4) Ford Thunderbird
5) BMW X5 (why not just get the 5 series wagon?)

Otherwise known as "Vicmobiles" around here for the Fashion Victims usually found inside.

Spining Ncnratr

10-23-2002, 11:08 AM

Just like the sedans with possability of 5 spd trans in the mix but everything the same except in the wagon body.

PatrickB

10-23-2002, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by windahdah
You people are OFF YOUR ROCKERS! It's tiny impractical sports cars with no room inside that GOT MAZDA INTO FINANCIAL TROUBLE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

Dude, take a chill pill. PEople will pay more attention to you if youdon't sound like you're off your rockers. Mazda got in trouble for a variety of reasons, much of which were lagging sales on the 626. With the RX-7, it was overheating problems and pricing that car out of reach that was the problem, not its existence.

Your assertions that an RX8 wagon would get Mazda into deeper financial trouble is crazy. And as for how difficult you seem to think it will be, well I disagree--it's easy to turn a sedan into a wagon. As for Torque well 162lb/ft. is enough for any sub 3000 lb. car.

It might be relatively easy to do, but that doesn't mean it would be free. Would the extra cost of training, parts, and maintenance be made up by increased sales, without robbing sales from the Mazda6?

The Europeans seem very keen on the Wagon concept. This is largely because in Europe WAGONS are everywhere. They don't equate the word wagon with Ford Country Squire or Chevy Caprice Classic like so many NA's do.

That's why Mazda has the Mazda6 sport wagon in Europe, and will be starting production of it in the states as well.

zoom44

10-23-2002, 12:39 PM

The Europeans seem very keen on the Wagon concept. This is largely because in Europe WAGONS are everywhere. actually you have that backwards-wagons are everywhere because europeans like them.
As for Torque well 162lb/ft. is enough for any sub 3000 lb. car. it is enough for any sub 3000lbs. car that you own. don't speak for me. if this car doesn't climb the hill, that i go over every day and night to and from work, at a rate i like then it is not enough torque. i don't care what the number says.
They don't equate the word wagon with Ford Country Squire or Chevy Caprice Classic like so many NA's do. Our Wagons used to SUCK and they all died in the late 70's and were replaced with Minivans and then with SUV's (whick suck even worse).
what do they equate the word wagon with?actually, my family had a lot of fun in our ford country squire and i bet if you asked people back then they would have said their wagons were great. my mom and my freinds moms at the time loved them. and SUVs suck so much now, they hardly sell any :rolleyes:
Forward looking individuals recognize that wagons offer all the benefits of cars with more practicality.
i must be backward looking then, because i recognize that wagons also have increased weight and different centers of gravity then their sedan counterparts which will affect acceleration and handling not to mention fuel economy.

wakeech

10-23-2002, 12:54 PM

exactly Zoom... i'll just elaborate on your last point...

this "no comprimize" stuff is just marketing garbage. there is ALWAYS a trade-off, and any engineer can back me up on this ('cause i'm not one... :p)
the RX-8 is not a no comprimize car: think about the next 7, which'll be on a shortened, and contracted version of the same chassis the 8 is on now, with a (presumeably) more powerful engine. tell me how the 8 is on the same level with it, whilst maintaining its 4 seater configuration, with the less powerful engine (which would be, again presumeably, lighter on the fuel and probably cleaner out the back end).

there is always a comprimize, and those who say this car isn't comprising are salespeople... making a sports car half a compact sedan (which makes it a sports-sedan) rather than a sedan half a sports car (like a BMW), it retains a sportier focus, but is still not a purebread sports machine.
taking that a step further and making it into a wagon would again move this car away from the sports philosophy.

PatB also raises a good point in that the 8Wagon would pull sales away from the Mazda 6 Wagon, it's an uneccessary overlap: besides, how many wagon buyers are adventurous enough to want a rotary engine, eh??
and if you're gonna say "the 8 would be the Escort Wagon to the 6's Taurus wagon", then i'm just gonna have to remind you that the Protege 5 is already on the market.

sorry bud, i sincerely doubt it's gonna happen. the 8 is pretty far upscale already, and a rotary engined, more expensive "sports" wagon isn't gonna sell... of course, that's just my opinion, i'm often very wrong.
:D

pelucidor

10-23-2002, 03:16 PM

When I was absolutely besotted about the Honda S2000 I read every review I could find. In several of them the reviewer noted (sometimes sarcastically) that the passenger seat airbag could not be turned off so making it impossible to put a baby seat there. One reviewer asked Honda how he was expected to carry his baby in the car. The answer from Honda was something like "this is a no compromise sports car, don't carry babies in it as it's not designed to do that". I'm sure it might be almost as easy to add an airbag-defeat switch to the S2000 as to turn the RX-8 into a wagon;) , but for some reason I like that answer...

If you always compromise based on every person's input you end up pleasing no-one. Of course a 'no compromise' attitude is just as bad as others have pointed out

I doubt those engineers that worked nights and weekends for free to design the RX-8 thought "just 12 more weekends and we'll have the perfect wagon"; some other passion must have been inspiring them...

pelucidor

10-23-2002, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by windahdah
Top Cars for the "Image Conscious":

1) Audi TT
2) Mini Cooper
3) VW New Beetle
4) Ford Thunderbird
5) BMW X5 (why not just get the 5 series wagon?)

1),3),4) Agreed they are mostly image cars
2) Many people say the MINI is an amazing handling vehicle. Image and performance don't always have to be mutually exclusive. The RX-8 ought to fall into this category.
5) I made EXACTLY this comparison a few months back. The BMW 540 wagon is cheaper, has much more space and much better performance than the X5 4.4. I agree the X5 is all about image, and I would not get one as a much better alternative exists.

Sadly the 540 wagon (I also looked at the VW Passat wagon, Audi A6 Avant, Audi allroad quattro, Mercedes E-class wagon) did not have sufficient space for my needs (two huge dogs - need at least 50 cubic feet behind 2nd row seats). The Merc was closest to space requirements but looks hideous and too expensive. So eventually I got an SUV (Acura MDX) which was the 'smallest' and most car-like vehicle that fit my space/luxury/reliability needs.

Note that I wanted a sporty luxury wagon but had to compromise and get a low-image SUV... if only BMW/Audi made a much bigger wagon:rolleyes:

pelucidor

10-23-2002, 04:12 PM

Originally posted by Hercules
I'd hate to see it though, it's really like taking a corvette and making a wagon out of it. Ruins the reputation of your car :( If, a few years after the RX-8 comes out, thousands of people go into Mazda showrooms, test-drive the RX-8 and love the rotary engine, the slick gearshift, the perfect balance, the gorgeous looks, the 4 seats etc,....
...but then say they will only buy it if it was a wagon.... at that point I would say that Mazda should build a wagon - they are in the business to make money after all. And they could then use that money to fund other projects (e.g. a higher end car to base their reputation on like the RX-7). Personally I can't see it happening...

windahdah

10-23-2002, 07:06 PM

Say what you will about the difficulties of developing a Wagon but I'd note that other Wagon versions of Sporty Sedans (yes my friends I consider the RX8 to be a sedan, sorry) like Ummm...Lessee...The WRX, BMW 3 and 5 series, Volvo's of all ilks, Saab 5 series...they all perform virtually the same as the sedan. Name one that is even marginally slower than it's sedan counterpart? As for handling/cornering in fact in most cases the handling improves with the Wagon's additional rear weight bias, which usually amounts to around 50 additional pounds. Furthermore the shape of a wagon usually lends itself to a more aerodynamic shape for the rear end, lowering wind drag. So I'd say that the argument that a wagon represents a comprimise in terms of performance vs. a sedan is BUNK.

Since I'm no Mazda Engineer and neither are many of you I suspect I don't think we can comment on how difficult it might be to engineer such a change to the RX8. I can say with relative assuredness that making and RX8 wagon would be MUCH easier than making the RX7 off the RX8 Chassis. Furthermore I would wager to guess that (given the small (and shrinking) segment of the car market made up by 2 seat sports cars) an RX8 Wagon model would exceed the sales of said RX7 2 seater in todays market (especially when viewed from worldwide demand). Like it or not (and I suspect not by many of you) wagons are a growing market segment and 2 seaters a shrinking one. Some people think that wagons are the next SUV.

Lastly I for one think that Wagons if done right (like the Alfa already clipped earlier in this thread) are SWEET Looking. Better than their stablemates in many cases. I think the RX8 could be morphed into a particularly cool looking ride. Obviously some disagree, saying it's like putting a wagon on the Corvette. Well since they sell a paltry 50,000 Corvettes a year in N. America then perhaps they'd better consider it. Mazda made the RX8 a 4 door 4 seat car because they seek VOLUME, and I'm not talking about interior space.

Buenos (re)Tardes amigos.

zoom44

10-23-2002, 07:16 PM

ok lets see if any of the photoshop wizards will take a stab at creating an rx8wagon. anyone up for the challenge?

wakeech

10-24-2002, 12:30 AM

Windadah, i really don't want to be critical, but some of your ideas are wrong.

Since when has rear weight bias been an empirically beneficial to handling, not to mention an extra 50 lb?? now, yes, race cars (as in F1 or CART karts) are setup with "strong" rear biases with weight, but then again, they've got all sorts of front end aerodynamic grip (which is increasing normal force on the front wheels without increasing the mass of the car), not to mention the grip they NEED on the rear wheels under acceleration out of a corner. the same is not necessarily true for a vehicle with a net lift value of about zero; in fact, i know this is false... my gr12 champoin kart driver chemistry teacher (like 100cc's or something... ya know, the small ones) tells me this is so (i'm inclined to belive him).

I'm not an engineer, but i do know a thing or two about aerodynamics, and i've never seen any evidence to suggest that a hatchback is more aerodynamic than a fast-back coupe (they DO call them fast backs for a reason). if this claim that hatchbacks universally have less drag than a "more streamlined" shape, then wouldn't everything be shaped that way?? think about it: why do torpedoes, airplanes, the wings on aircraft, (speed) boats (like catamarans, or hydroplanes), race cars, etc, etc, etc, NOT have a flat plane on the trailing end of the body moving through the fluid?? it's because laminar flow is inherently lower drag than turbulent, and a given fluid has an engergetic threshold only so high before the laminar flow separates and turbulence is created as you try to change the direction of the flow (around the blunt end of something).

so, no, it's not bunk to say that having a wagon is comprimizing vehicle performance for greater practicality.

you must also remember that sales are not dependant ONLY on the high volume sales cars, but also on the image the entire coporation projects onto their products. without a serious halo car, Mazda's image will continue to be dominated by the Zoom Zoom kid, and how much he likes Miatas. Mazda needs the RX-7 to continue to increase it's share of the marketplace.
i'm not sure about the validity of you statement about the growth or reduction (in real terms) of sales in those markets, but i do know that it is still worth it to Mazda to produce two seaters and profit in that market niche.
remember too that it was a big folly for Mazda to try and beat Toyota and Honda, as they did in the early 90's: the very same could happen in the estate car market.

73JPS

10-24-2002, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by zoom44
ok lets see if any of the photoshop wizards will take a stab at creating an rx8wagon. anyone up for the challenge?

I hate myself, I hate myself I hate myself... but mostly I did it so I could make the pic that appears in the next post... honest...

Hey, looks like she handles pretty good, eh boys? Geez, she's goin' pretty fast too! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

73JPS

10-24-2002, 02:21 AM

And for you, Windahdah my friend... sorry, I couldn't resist!:D And yes, as a matter of fact, that is the best I can do...:D :D

Quick_lude

10-24-2002, 07:10 AM

That looks pretty good! Where do I sign.. haha... not. :)

windahdah

10-24-2002, 11:01 AM

Now that does look pretty sweet! Could you clean up the window around the C pillar? I don't think they'd leave that large of a blind spot....

Where to I sign up??? Just think fellaz, a real Sports Wagon (not just a "sporty" wagon like all those other ones). 73JPS, I'm going to have to personally drive my new RX8 SportsWagon up to Toronto just to thank you....

As for the Aerodynamic principles of Wagons vs. sedans, well read up on the work of an old german physicist named Wunibald Kamm whose work led to the Shelby Dayton Coupe and a whole bunch of other race cars (without the need for drag inducing rear wings). I think then you'll understand where I'm coming from.

And seriously guys....If all you really want is another RX7 then please go to the RX7 forum, or go start one if it's not around...

pelucidor

10-24-2002, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by windahdah
Furthermore I would wager to guess that (given the small (and shrinking) segment of the car market made up by 2 seat sports cars) an RX8 Wagon model would exceed the sales of said RX7 2 seater in todays market (especially when viewed from worldwide demand). Like it or not (and I suspect not by many of you) wagons are a growing market segment and 2 seaters a shrinking one. Some people think that wagons are the next SUV. I completely disagree that the market is shrinking for 2-seater sports cars. It is increasing - have you seen the waiting lists for the 350Z, the S2000 etc. Porsche just had their most profitable year ever. I believe that a certain company even sold over 600,000 2-seater sports cars over the last decade - the main reason it's still alive today.

As far as wagon sales go, in the late 1980's wagon sales peaked at 600,000 in the USA, now they are 250,000 per year. Analysts are predicting possible growth in the wagon market... to 375,000 over the next 5 years, but this includes mass-market vehicles like the Matrix, Vibe, PT Cruiser etc (not really up to par with a BMW 540 wagon). Wagons ARE NOT the next SUV, or even the next minivan (minivans sales = 1.3M per year, SUV sales = 4M per year and growing fast).

If wagons are such a guaranteed money maker then why isn't there an Accord or Camry wagon. You might have noticed that these cars sell pretty well without a wagon version. Why isn't there a BMW 7 series wagon, or a Mercedes S-class wagon (or even a Ford Crown Victoria wagon or Chrysler 300M wagon - I've already mentioned the Accord and Camry). Manufacturers don't make wagon versions of their top-end cars, and the RX-8 is the top-end Mazda for the time being.

pelucidor

10-24-2002, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by 73JPS
I hate myself, I hate myself I hate myself... but mostly I did it so I could make the pic that appears in the next post... honest...

Hey, looks like she handles pretty good, eh boys? Geez, she's goin' pretty fast too! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
73JPS - that is just plain cruel. It's so true that a picture is worth a thousand words - thank you for so eloquently stating your case.

Is this discussion closed now?

73JPS

10-24-2002, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by windahdah
Now that does look pretty sweet! Could you clean up the window around the C pillar? I don't think they'd leave that large of a blind spot....
...

As for the Aerodynamic principles of Wagons vs. sedans, well read up on the work of an old german physicist named Wunibald Kamm...

And seriously guys....If all you really want is another RX7 then please go to the RX7 forum, or go start one if it's not around...

1. Ok, here's a smaller "C" pillar: yep, still looks kinda ugly
2. No Kamm back on this wagon, although Mazda's three rotor exotic concept from the 70's had one.
3. Man, the RX8 may not be a replacement for the 7, but it is not a family sedan... jeez, even Consumer Reports isn't goofy enough to think that!

Hercules

10-24-2002, 12:29 PM

Originally posted by 73JPS

1. Ok, here's a smaller "C" pillar: yep, still looks kinda ugly
2. No Kamm back on this wagon, although Mazda's three rotor exotic concept from the 70's had one.
3. Man, the RX8 may not be a replacement for the 7, but it is not a family sedan... jeez, even Consumer Reports isn't goofy enough to think that!
Damn straight it looks ugly :)

windahdah

10-24-2002, 12:43 PM

Gee this looks like the top thread in the entire "requests" forum. I guess if I were Mazda I'd make note of that fact. Thanks for adding more fuel to this fire guys 'cause the bigger it gets the more likely Mazda is to take notice.

This is one of those "Polarizing" concepts I guess. Just like the shape of the Doge Trucks when they came out...people seemed to either love it or hate it. Sales of Dodge's trucks doubled after the intro of the "big rig" look. In the same vein while there certainly are many of you seem to hate the RX8 Wagon idea there are many of us who love it. Either way thanks for posting your comments because positive or negative they still make this the hottest topic on the whole forum. :D

zoom44

10-24-2002, 01:01 PM

73jps,
that was very good work. don't hate yourself for giving one for the cause and accepting the challenge. i think your pic speaks for itself but maybe you could put a roof rack up there with some luggage since there wont be any room in the back once widadah's dog is in there.
pelucidor, there was an accord wagon a few years ago, and i still see them around once in a while, but you are correct- if honda didn't have the sales volume with an accord wagon to keep building them i don't think widadah is ever going to see an rx8 wagon unless he takes it to someone and has it chopped just for him. i just hope i never see it. maybe nissan ought to consider a 350z wagon?

bwayout

10-24-2002, 01:42 PM

How about a compromise ... sometime soon, in the future, I'd love to see a future RX-8 (still a 2+2) that's a fastback hatchback! And also has room in the back for a little more than two golf bags!

Or bring back something like the mx-6 ... that's alittle more aerodynamic than the new 6 hatchback will be.

And for the record, I really like the looks of the new Alfa-Romeo BRERA! But I wouldn't call it a wagon. Also, I can't recall if anywhere this was mentioned earlier (this is quite a long thread) but there's the BMW M Sport Hatchback but both are out of my price range :p and thier not fastbacks ;)

windahdah

10-24-2002, 01:49 PM

Chalk up one for another gomer that should be making his comments over on the "Bring back my RX7 Forum".

A 350Z wagon, now that's just silly. It doesn't even have a back seat. I've read that the RX8 has a quite sizeable back seat. How about an Infinity G35 Wagon? I'd consider buying one and It's off the same chassis as the 350Z. So there, Neeener neener...gomenheimer. There's a G35 Sedan, a G35 Coupe and the 350Z all off the same chassis, I'm sure a Wagon version of the G35 would sell well. Probably in larger VOLUMES than the 350Z.

If there's any doubt in your mind that utility sells cars just look at all your neighbors driving SUV's. Each and every one of them shoud be driving either a Minivan or a Wagon (better gas mileage, equal or greater cargo capacity, cheaper to buy, cheaper to maintain, more reliable, better handling, better acceleration, better braking, less prone to rollovers, less likely to act like a battering ram in a head on collision). You can go thank them for polluting the air, endangering our roads and increasing our dependence on foreign oil. To which they'll reply "But I need the extra room". What they really meant to say was "Well we should have gotten a minivan but the wifey wouldn't be caught dead in one of those". Vanity leads to ugly behavior.

I guess my desire to see an RX8 Wagon is driven out of my hate for SUV's. I find it objectionable that people feel the need to drive cars that are even heavier, guzzle even more gas and handle worse than the 70's Detroit "Land Yacht's" of yore. It's sad that the Government (through CAFE regulations) practically legislated the SUV into the phenomenon that it is today.

If I'm such a bad guy to all you RX7 nutz out there for this concept well perhaps you'd better consider the alternative. Just think of me every time you're trying to peer around another huge SUV to see if it's OK to pass his lumbering ass.

bwayout

10-24-2002, 01:54 PM

Anyone kwow about if this will be a reality?

http://www.mazdausa.com/conceptcars/default.asp?vehicle=&zip=&did=&state=

I hope they add a fastback model to the MX Sport Tourer line :D

zoom44

10-24-2002, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by windahdah
Chalk up one for another gomer that should be making his comments over on the "Bring back my RX7 Forum".

A 350Z wagon, now that's just silly. It doesn't even have a back seat. I've read that the RX8 has a quite sizeable back seat. How about an Infinity G35 Wagon? I'd consider buying one and It's off the same chassis as the 350Z. So there, Neeener neener...gomenheimer.
you seem to be replying to my post. first perhaps you should reread my posts in this thread and note that though i am not on your side of the arguement, i have not called you any names nor have i commented on your level of intelligence.
second, i am on this forum because i want an rx8.i do not want nor will i in the future want an rx7 for myself. but for those people who do i don't see why they can't be interested in both cars and put their comments on this forum.
third, the 350z as a wagon remark should have been read as irony and sarcasm, as i believe others on this forum did. it was supposed to be silly, as i think the rear of that is bloated looking to begin with and adding a wagon version would be laughably hideous. and for trying to play nice i get called names? if you really think that the photoshop version looks good i won't question your taste or intelligence, but i do question your sanity:rolleyes:

wakeech

10-24-2002, 02:41 PM

first bud, the conceptual work on those blunt ended cars (where a small turbulent area was purposefully created behind the car to sort of create a "streamlined" shape, the laminar flow goes around the turbulence) was the work which has led up to the spoiler, and more modern concepts of ground effect, diffuser technology, and on the fore-front these days, is venturi stuff (where swirls of turbulence pass beneath the car to create ground-effectesque downforce without the use of ground scraping plates) as you see on the F12002 (the serated barge boards). wings are not the only things that create drag. any time that you displace any given volume of a fluid, the amount of energy used to displace it and then move it back to it's origional position is the amount of energy taken away in drag. the more efficient you more the air around the body, and put it back where it used to be, the less drag you've got on that body.

those concepts and work you're speaking of is obviously out of date, and AGAIN, it IS a comprimize, where turbulent air is there in place of a more streamlined tail, only to reduce the mass of the vehicle. it still creates more drag than a streamlined shape, and the blunt end on the Daytona Shelby coupe was a helluva lot smaller in area than the back of a fat-ass wagon is.
again, if you want more proof that it DOES create more drag, simply try drafting a sports car (like a miata or something), and then drafting a lorry/semi-truck/whatever on the highway... see the difference??

well, windahdah, it may be so that you NEED to have a wagon, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea for Mazda to make one out of the RX-8.
yes, i agree that wagons are simply better than SUV's.
yes, i also agree that SUV's are 95% image.
yes, if i needed something of the like, i'd get a minivan (for more people) or a wagon (for more stuff)...
but no, just because i don't think a wagon is the way to go with the 8 doesn't necessarily mean that i'm against KEEPING IT THE WAY IT IS (going to be)!!! i am an RX-7 guy, and ya, i'd buy a 7 before an 8, but, that doesn't mean that i don't like the 8 for what it is; that implies that i don't think it should be a wagon, and i stand by that. it's a sports (sedan) car.

you want a wagon, get the 6. really, there's not gonna be a rotary wagon.

Speedbuggy

10-28-2002, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by bwayout
How about a compromise ... sometime soon, in the future, I'd love to see a future RX-8 (still a 2+2) that's a fastback hatchback! And also has room in the back for a little more than two golf bags!

Now you're talking... I think a fastback hatch would look absolutely awesome. I would love it if they offered one with rear styling similar to that on the old MX-3, I think that would be gorgeous and would readily buy that over the stock model.

It's nice to see I'm not the only one whose tastes run in that direction.

Mazda, are you listening?

Hercules

10-28-2002, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by Speedbuggy

Now you're talking... I think a fastback hatch would look absolutely awesome. I would love it if they offered one with rear styling similar to that on the old MX-3, I think that would be gorgeous and would readily buy that over the stock model.

It's nice to see I'm not the only one whose tastes run in that direction.

Mazda, are you listening? Not to makign the 8 a wagon, no I hope not.

The 6 is the wagon, it will be coming out with AWD and turbo, and will be plenty fast. Get that if you don't want to suffer on the room with the RX-8. The RX-8 would be fugly as a hatch or any derivative thereof.

Speedbuggy

10-28-2002, 01:40 PM

No, not as a wagon. I don't like the Protege5, and I won't be looking at the Mazda6 wagon either. I don't care for wagons, personally, and I wasn't talking about making the RX-8 into one.

What I -was- referring to is a fastback, which is an extended rear glass/hatch that slopes down at a gentle angle from the roofline, not an extended roofline like a wagon has.

Examples of that sort of fastback styling are the MX-3 (which I mentioned, and was definitely not a wagon by any stretch of the imagination), Porche's 944 and 928, as well as the non-convertible version of the second-generation RX-7. Various incarnations of the Toyota Celica and Supra from the 80's have worn this configuration as well. None of them wagons, all of them very sporty and attractive coupes, and all of them quite popular.

I also don't think a fasback should be a replacement for the current body style, just an alternative. Celicas, in particular, have offered both notchback w/trunk and fastback w/ hatch body styles in the same model, and done well with it. And unlike the wagon idea, I don't think it would dilute the image.

Food for thought.

wakeech

10-28-2002, 07:31 PM

well, Mazda has made this car very sleek and long, but for the comprimize to make a compact car with enough room for four pretty big adults, they've sacrificed copious amounts of cargo space for seating... you can't have your cake and eat it too, unless you make another comprimize: making the car bigger adds wieght FAST, making it less sporty even faster... it's not suppost to be a car that's all show and no go, it IS suppost to be pretty fast... really, just get the 6 MPS: it's the sedan, right?? so, lots of power, more room, 4wd, and not as sporty. again, it's all a comprimize. the RX-8 is exactly what Mazda promised, and i really really dont' think they should change it.

bwayout

10-30-2002, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by Speedbuggy
No, not as a wagon. I don't like the Protege5, and I won't be looking at the Mazda6 wagon either. I don't care for wagons, personally, and I wasn't talking about making the RX-8 into one.

What I -was- referring to is a fastback, which is an extended rear glass/hatch that slopes down at a gentle angle from the roofline, not an extended roofline like a wagon has.

Examples of that sort of fastback styling are the MX-3 (which I mentioned, and was definitely not a wagon by any stretch of the imagination), Porche's 944 and 928, as well as the non-convertible version of the second-generation RX-7. Various incarnations of the Toyota Celica and Supra from the 80's have worn this configuration as well. None of them wagons, all of them very sporty and attractive coupes, and all of them quite popular.

I also don't think a fasback should be a replacement for the current body style, just an alternative. Celicas, in particular, have offered both notchback w/trunk and fastback w/ hatch body styles in the same model, and done well with it. And unlike the wagon idea, I don't think it would dilute the image.

Food for thought.

... so I'm curious what others might think and bring this up as a new request thread

wakeech

10-30-2002, 02:54 PM

again, i'd like to reiterate that it wouldn't be an RX-8 anymore if you tried to make it a "fast back"... to keep the four-seater layout, you'd really have to stretch the chassis a good couple of inches to ensure that there's head room for the back passengers, and for Speedbuggy's bigger trunk... tack on another 200 lb of car, and you're stretching the wheelbase don't forget, again comprimising the sportiness of the car for greater functionality...

if you don't "need" to keep the back seats and want a fast back, well my friend, now you're talking about a 7 (see styjan's kick ass photoshopped images:scroll down the page a bit (http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1087&pagenumber=3) ), which again, is not an RX-8 (although it's more my kind of car ;))...

pelucidor

10-30-2002, 04:14 PM

Ye gods - this topic is still going! I thought 73JPS killed it for sure with his 'artist's impression' of the wagon.

Let's have the RX-8 on sale and successful AS IT IS before we all try to get Mazda to redesign it into wagons, hatchbacks, SUVs, submersibles and snow-ploughs.

windahdah

10-30-2002, 04:45 PM

Yes of course this forum is Still Going...Good ideas endure no matter what Peculiar er Peculidor er whatever.

It's a difference of perspective between us I guess. I (like most people as evidenced by the puny sales numbers of the last generation RX7) admire the old RX7 but would never consider owning one. It's 2 seat layout with a tiny "trunk" made it totally impractical even for me as a single guy. I need more utility but don't to sacrifice sports car performance.

Whereas I get the feeling you really just wish that the RX8 had never seen the light of day and that you could just have a new RX7. I on the other hand am only interested in the RX8 because it now comes with a useable back seat and decent space in the trunk. I only wish it were more so, hence the RX8 SportsWagon.

And no the 6 wagon just won't do for me. If Mazda TRULY wants to assume the role of the Japanese BMW/Porsche they need to stop marketing FWD platforms entirely.

Go ahead and proclaim something like "there's not going to be and RX8 Wagon, no matter what" or something keen like that. If Mazda's listening and watching the market they'll see that there's opportunity in this concept. Now back off to your "I want my RX7 back Forum", please.....

zoom44

10-30-2002, 05:21 PM

if you look at pelucidors list of cars owned you will see that he never owned an rx7in the first place. and this topic is still going because of the oppostion to the idea not because people ar in favor of it.

Speedbuggy

10-30-2002, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by wakeech
again, i'd like to reiterate that it wouldn't be an RX-8 anymore if you tried to make it a "fast back"... to keep the four-seater layout, you'd really have to stretch the chassis a good couple of inches to ensure that there's head room for the back passengers, and for Speedbuggy's bigger trunk... tack on another 200 lb of car, and you're stretching the wheelbase don't forget, again comprimising the sportiness of the car for greater functionality...

if you don't "need" to keep the back seats and want a fast back, well my friend, now you're talking about a 7 (see styjan's kick ass photoshopped images:scroll down the page a bit (http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1087&pagenumber=3) ), which again, is not an RX-8 (although it's more my kind of car ;))...

Not to seem rude, but what makes you think that the frame would have to be stretched etc to make a fastback version of the RX-8?

Look at the pic at the top of the page, and then imagine the rear face just an inch or two taller and the back glass stretching all the way to meet it. The frame and wheelbase and such wouldn't need to be changed at all, and would remain identical to the current car. That is what a fastback RX-8 would look like from the outside.

Inside, the trunk enclosure would be opened up and the back seats made able to fold down, thus expanding cargo space and giving the option of even more space if you need to carry stuff instead of people. Headroom would remain identical as the roofline wouldn't change, only the back glass which begins behind the back seats anyhow.

Weight shouldn't change, as what extra glass there is is balanced by less metal, and the aerodynamic profile would likely improve. After all, they're not called "fastbacks" for nothing. Performance would remain virtually identical.

Thus, what you would end up with is a car with slightly higher cargo capacity, a different look, and virtually identical specs.

For examples of when and how this has been done successfully before, look at the early-80's Celica and Corolla from Toyota. Fastback and notchback versions of both cars were produced while changing very little about the car's performance features, dimensions, etc. And Toyota profited by expanding the markets for the models with the broadened appeal the choice in body styles gave.

And no, they never made a Celica wagon.

zoom44

10-30-2002, 08:38 PM

think it would have louvers as an option in the fastback/hatch version?

Speedbuggy

10-30-2002, 09:25 PM

Maybe so! *S* It would depend on how they'd look and how they affected the aerodynamics. They might just use tinted glass instead, after all the MX-3 never had louvres that I saw. Intersting question though. *S*

wakeech

10-31-2002, 01:11 AM

well, if Speedy, if you've got a concept like that in your head, you can't ignore issues like cost, weight of the trunk lid, structural issues, oh jesus... i can't really come up with a real list of negatives which counter balance your positives, as it's a neat idea... i see now what you mean, and i don't mean stretching the wheel base a foot, i'm thinking 2 or 3 inches, which (obviously) is a lot... in any case, i'm sure that Mazda designers would have addressed this, and found that the plain-jane all metal bootlid to be a solution more in tune with the car they wanted to produce, rather than a huge windowed fast back... i don't know why, and might take pot shots at it, but your arguements are very very valid, and it'd be hard to argue them down without some really REAL science... hmmm... well, maybe Mazda would in fact make a version as such, but :confused: who knows?? i still think that the way it is kicks serious ass...
and thanks for adding your voice to the anti-wagon chorus (nothin' personal windahdah... just really isn't the right concept for the car)

73JPS

10-31-2002, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by zoom44
...and this topic is still going because of the oppostion to the idea not because people ar in favor of it.

BINGO! Hit the nail on the head, Zoom. But it got me thinking: how about a poll on the subject? After nine pages of postings, perhaps a carefully worded poll could put some perspective on this topic, or at least give it some closure.

pelucidor

10-31-2002, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by windahdah
It's a difference of perspective between us I guess. I (like most people as evidenced by the puny sales numbers of the last generation RX7) admire the old RX7 but would never consider owning one. It's 2 seat layout with a tiny "trunk" made it totally impractical even for me as a single guy. I need more utility but don't to sacrifice sports car performance.

Whereas I get the feeling you really just wish that the RX8 had never seen the light of day and that you could just have a new RX7. I on the other hand am only interested in the RX8 because it now comes with a useable back seat and decent space in the trunk.That's a big inference you've made about me wanting an RX-7. Actually in almost 20 years of driving I have never considered a Mazda until I heard about the RX-8, and for EXACTLY the reasons you want it - a sporty car with usable back seat (for the baby when necessary) and reasonable trunk. Until 8 years ago I had only owned European brands, but my first experience with a Prelude in Singapore changed my opinions about Japanese cars in a big way.

Now I understand how great a new RX-7 could be I really hope it makes a return so others may enjoy it, but I will never be able to get one due to (increasing) family reasons. To tell the truth if I could afford a third car it would be a 2-seater RWD convertible (preferably 360 Modena Spyder when I win the lottery, more likely a '93-'95 Miata for <$7000 when I don't).

I agree with you that it's a shame certain manufacturers whom I now admire (Mazda, Honda/Acura etc) don't make mainstream RWD vehicles - hopefully that will change eventually (see Infiniti and Lexus).

BTW what kind of dog do you have?

windahdah

11-05-2002, 10:46 AM

Well I broke down and bought a new Suzuki Aerio SX Wagon. I guess there'll be no RX8 (wagon or not) in my driveway anytime. The Aerio has tons of room inside and comes with a nice little 2L DOHC 4 banger. I understand that Suzuki planned for the Aerio Sedan to outsell the Wagon 3 to 1 but the inverse of that has proven to be the case. I bought the last Black SX with a Manual and ABS in the state of California this year (had to search like hell for it). Put a grand down and got 0% financing...can't beat that.

As for my dog I own a beautiful German Shorthaired Pointer named Jake. He's a wonderful dog who's very affectionate yet also protective, he doesn't dig, never wanders (despite still having his boy parts), he never fights and is great with kids. He's also a fine competitor in Dog Aglity Trials (leaps like a gazelle). He likes his new ride just fine and thinks it goes well with his other ride the modified '93 Suzuki Sidekick (black of course).

Alas I fear this might be my last post to this forum...I'm off to the SuzukiAerioForum looking for neat parts to add to my SX.

Armoir Amigos & Happy Wagoning...
Windahdah

Speedbuggy

11-05-2002, 04:18 PM

Good luck and happy motoring, Windadah (hope I spelled that right *S*)

While I still think a rotory wagon is a bad idea for torque reasons, and that the RX-8 is the wrong sort of platform for a wagon configuration, I hope that doesn't send you away from Mazda forever. In fact I would very much like to see you one day test-drive an RX-8 fastback, if they make one, and see if it has the room you need. Maybe then you'll find the best of both worlds, enough space to suit your needs and the performance and zip you'll never find in a true wagon.

However it works out, best of luck and I hope the road is good to you and your four-legged friend.

Take care.

rotorhead

11-11-2002, 10:13 AM

I'd consider a wagon. I thought I wanted a WRX, but the reviews from the press and friends are starting to say "numb and dumb" although I haven't driven one yet.

feelthesweetbea

11-12-2002, 06:53 PM

I would love a wagon.... but only if it rivaled the Audi Sportec RS4 Biturbo Level 2!!!!!!!!! Imagine the looks on corvette drivers faces when all they can see is the dust coming from your "soccer-mom" type wagon!!!!

Hercules

11-12-2002, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by feelthesweetbea
I would love a wagon.... but only if it rivaled the Audi Sportec RS4 Biturbo Level 2!!!!!!!!! Imagine the looks on corvette drivers faces when all they can see is the dust coming from your "soccer-mom" type wagon!!!!
Blech... AWD...

If I wanted a wagon (not yet at that stage in my life) I'd be happy in an Audi for a daily driver but I'd still need a nice light RWD weekend car :)

Speedbuggy

11-12-2002, 08:12 PM

Ok, this might be wandering off-topic, but...

What is the weight penalty like on a full-time AWD system? And are the benefits in traction, handling, and acceleration worth it?

I know AWD was all the rage in sports cars a few years back, what with the Mitsu 3000GT and Celica All-trac and such sporting it. But I am not a big expert in the stats of those cars or the advantages and disadvantages that sort of system gave them. Could you fill me in if you know more than I do? I'd be curious to find out more.

Thanx in advance.

Hercules

11-12-2002, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by Speedbuggy
Ok, this might be wandering off-topic, but...

What is the weight penalty like on a full-time AWD system? And are the benefits in traction, handling, and acceleration worth it?

I know AWD was all the rage in sports cars a few years back, what with the Mitsu 3000GT and Celica All-trac and such sporting it. But I am not a big expert in the stats of those cars or the advantages and disadvantages that sort of system gave them. Could you fill me in if you know more than I do? I'd be curious to find out more.

Thanx in advance. 300-500lbs, depending on the system. Also causes a general weight imbalance. Audi's current S4 runs like 63/37, to give you an idea.

It's good for safety though, and rallying, but otherwise I wouldn't want it.. just me though.

trekkerz-06

11-12-2002, 10:33 PM

i am having a hard time imagining what a wagon would look like from the rx-8. Would the suicide doors carry over?

Hercules

11-12-2002, 10:50 PM

Originally posted by trekkerz-06
i am having a hard time imagining what a wagon would look like from the rx-8. Would the suicide doors carry over?
There's a reason you're having a hard time.. cuz it would look nasty :)

Besides the Mazda6 is there for that purpose.

Buger

11-13-2002, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by Hercules
300-500lbs, depending on the system.

C'mon Herc, You can add a little truth to your dogma. ;)

The Mazda Tribute awd system adds about 150 lbs.

Brian

wakeech

11-13-2002, 11:20 AM

150 lb is the difference between the AWD and 2WD (dunno much about the vehicle) systems in the Tribute???? WOW!!!!! but could that small discrepency be accounted for by a very very robust (ie, a GUTTED AWD system) 2WD system??
so, what system're they gonna use for the 6 MPS (aka MazdaSpeed)???

Hercules

11-13-2002, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by Buger

C'mon Herc, You can add a little truth to your dogma. ;)

The Mazda Tribute awd system adds about 150 lbs.

Brian
You aren't forgetting the driveshaft that connects to the rear are ya? I haven't heard of a system weighing the car down by only 150, but hey live and learn..

Buger

11-13-2002, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by Hercules

You aren't forgetting the driveshaft that connects to the rear are ya? I haven't heard of a system weighing the car down by only 150, but hey live and learn..

Hi Herc,

I got the curb weights from carpoint (http://autos.msn.com/vip/specifications.aspx?modelid=10157&src=vip).

DX ........... 3091
DX 4WD .... 3245
154 lb difference

LX (v6) ............ 3292
LX (v6) 4WD ..... 3455
163 lb difference

Of course the AWD system on the Tribute isn't intended for heavy duty off-roading but most car AWD systems aren't intended for heavy duty off-roading either.

Brian

Speedbuggy

11-13-2002, 07:35 PM

Wow... interesting numbers there. I'm willing to bet that a similar system for a car, being for a smaller wheelbase and such, would weigh less than it's counterpart in the Tribute. Kinda makes you wonder if it's a good idea to consider in the RX-8, considering that some of the target market for the car will be thinking twice about an RWD vehicle because of winter driving needs. And if it can improve takeoff accelleration (those all-important 1/4 mile and 0-60 times) and cornering as well, then it might be a good idea indeed.

Really, it's a matter of market appeal. As much as we performance types love our rear drive, we need to face the fact that a rear drive car will never be anything more than a niche vehicle in the modern mainstream market. And front drive just doesn't cut it in a performance car. So maybe, just maybe a properly designed and tweaked AWD might be the answer to satisfy both camps. After all, Mazda is already seeking a more practicality-oriented market by making the car a 4-door four seater. Giving the car the added safety and bad-weather handling capability of AWD without sacrificing performance might be just the right move for this car.

if they can do it without adding too much in the way of additional weight or cost, and without robbing the car of it's weight balance and performance, then it's something I'd definitely consider buying.

Especially if it came in a fastback. *G*

Buger

11-13-2002, 07:53 PM

Originally posted by Buger
DX ........... 3091
DX 4WD .... 3245
154 lb difference

You know the funny thing about this is that my Tribute DX (awd) weighs less than the touring 350z. Aren't sports cars supposed to be lighter than SUVs? :p

Brian

Buger

11-13-2002, 08:27 PM

Originally posted by Speedbuggy
Wow... interesting numbers there. I'm willing to bet that a similar system for a car, being for a smaller wheelbase and such, would weigh less than it's counterpart in the Tribute. Kinda makes you wonder if it's a good idea to consider in the RX-8, considering that some of the target market for the car will be thinking twice about an RWD vehicle because of winter driving needs. And if it can improve takeoff accelleration (those all-important 1/4 mile and 0-60 times) and cornering as well, then it might be a good idea indeed.
I'm sure that a light AWD system kinda makes you wonder if it's a good idea for the rx-8. :D

Seriously though, the perfect application of the NA rotary is for a small lightweight sports car. Mazda meant for the side port rotary to go into a small lightweight sports car (rx-01) but couldn't get the approval of the company with the purse strings (Ford). The rotary has incredibly high horsepower for an engine it's size but it doesn't have incredibly high torque for an engine it's size.

The reason why we have the rx-8 is because it was the only way to get a new rotary on the market. The rx-8 was built from the beginning with the dual goals of lightweight and affordability. A lot of effort was made to shave a few pounds here and there to get the rx-8 to the weight it is now. A carmaker without Mazda's attention to this might even end up with a sports car that is heavier than an SUV. :p Trust me, Mazda didn't come up with a car this light just so that they could add another 150 pounds for awd.

The Mazda6 was made for the awd market and also has 2 very good engines with great torque curves. People that really want awd should really take a close look at the Mazda6.

Originally posted by Speedbuggy
Really, it's a matter of market appeal. As much as we performance types love our rear drive, we need to face the fact that a rear drive car will never be anything more than a niche vehicle in the modern mainstream market. And front drive just doesn't cut it in a performance car. So maybe, just maybe a properly designed and tweaked AWD might be the answer to satisfy both camps. After all, Mazda is already seeking a more practicality-oriented market by making the car a 4-door four seater. Giving the car the added safety and bad-weather handling capability of AWD without sacrificing performance might be just the right move for this car.

if they can do it without adding too much in the way of additional weight or cost, and without robbing the car of it's weight balance and performance, then it's something I'd definitely consider buying.

Especially if it came in a fastback. *G*

Believe it or not, Mazda has already thought of what you are mentioning and already has plans for the awd Mazda6.

Seriously, "performance types" really don't care whether their car has mass market appeal. In fact, most "performance types" probably wish that their car didn't have a large mass market appeal because they don't want a car that everyone else has. Obviously Mazda has made sacrifices to practicality to get their new rotary car to the market. This car isn't meant for awd fans and they are the ones who will have to "face that fact".

IMHO, as much as you hope that there will be an awd rx-8, you will be disappointed.

Brian

Speedbuggy

11-13-2002, 08:42 PM

Ain't it weird? My old Toyota Corolla from '81 was around 2100 pounds, and that was with a larger engine than the RX-8 will be getting and surely less technological advancements. So I couldn't believe when I read they were -hoping- to bring the car in around 2800 pounds! I mean, where is the extra weight coming from? It kinda makes you wonder, huh?

C'mon, Mazda, you can do better than that. The Protege seats five and has a larger engine (2.0 liters for it's 4-banger compared to 1.3 for the Renesis). If you can't make the RX-8 at least as light as it is, you have a problem.

PS: When you're trimming weight, start with those awful 18 inch rims. Can you say unsprung weight? I knew you could.

TheSaCK

11-13-2002, 08:55 PM

I read in motor trend, that the RX8 will be around 30k. Anyone know if this is true? i called the dealer to see if there were any waiting lists for it and a estimate of the price. They were kinda rude and didnt help much. =( I hate being on waiting lists for cars ...

And seirously, they should raise up the HP on the rx-8 .. i was hoping to get one that went over 300 hp .. wanted to get a supra, cause i heard they were gonna redo it around 2005, but guess not.. so .. RX 8 looks like the car to zip around in. is it me or did the weight on the rx8 get heavier?

Speedbuggy

11-13-2002, 09:53 PM

Nice to hear the good news about the 6. I always thought awd was a superior choice to fwd, especially for performance-minded buyers. That option alone should help cement the 6 as a more sporty car than the 626 was.

For me, though, the 6 will be larger and heavier than what I want. I have no interest at all in a midsize no matter what it's performance is like. And I certainly don't want a 3000+ lb car.

I suppose that brings up the question, what size -will- the RX-8 be? Will it be similar in size to a midsize like the 6 or more like a subcompact like the Protege? That will make a huge difference in what the final weight will be, and I suppose also in if I'm going to want it or not.

Really for me the attraction of the RX-8 is the engine. I love nothing better than a small, light, agile car and the Renesis engine is perfect for that considering it's low size and weight. And though it's torque is low compared to it's horsepower, it's still by far more powerful than a much larger cylinder engine.

One of the main reasons I like the idea of awd in a very small and light car is that it enhances accelleration off the line and out of corners, which is important when you don't have a lot of torque to work with. That's why I thought it would be an interesting idea to see done on an RX-8, since it would really help to make the most out of the torque available and give it performance numbers closer to more powerful cars like the Z.

Then again, my perfect car would be a Protege with awd and the Renesis engine, call me weird. I just love the idea of a subcompact car with more power than it knows what to do with. Kinda like my namesake... room-a-zoom-zoom!

Hercules

11-13-2002, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by Speedbuggy
Nice to hear the good news about the 6. I always thought awd was a superior choice to fwd, especially for performance-minded buyers. That option alone should help cement the 6 as a more sporty car than the 626 was.

For me, though, the 6 will be larger and heavier than what I want. I have no interest at all in a midsize no matter what it's performance is like. And I certainly don't want a 3000+ lb car.

I suppose that brings up the question, what size -will- the RX-8 be? Will it be similar in size to a midsize like the 6 or more like a subcompact like the Protege? That will make a huge difference in what the final weight will be, and I suppose also in if I'm going to want it or not.

Really for me the attraction of the RX-8 is the engine. I love nothing better than a small, light, agile car and the Renesis engine is perfect for that considering it's low size and weight. And though it's torque is low compared to it's horsepower, it's still by far more powerful than a much larger cylinder engine.

One of the main reasons I like the idea of awd in a very small and light car is that it enhances accelleration off the line and out of corners, which is important when you don't have a lot of torque to work with. That's why I thought it would be an interesting idea to see done on an RX-8, since it would really help to make the most out of the torque available and give it performance numbers closer to more powerful cars like the Z.

Then again, my perfect car would be a Protege with awd and the Renesis engine, call me weird. I just love the idea of a subcompact car with more power than it knows what to do with. Kinda like my namesake... room-a-zoom-zoom!
The best quote comes from Sam Mitani of Road and Track for the dimensions of the car:
The car's exterior dimensions are roughly those of an Acura NSX, only taller, measuring 174.2 in. from bumper to bumper, with an overall width and height of 69.7 and 52.8 in., respectively. But its wheelbase is longer than anything in its class at 106.3 in. (longer than the company's midsize sedan, the 626, by more than an inch). This means there's plenty of leg room inside for both front and rear passengers, as well as space for two golf bags in the trunk.
I'm not a big fan of AWD for two reasons.. first, it adds an imbalance of weight and is difficult to engineer that out. BMW succeeded in this area by adding a RWD bias to the AWD system they have in their 3 series. Audi's Quattro system while a great system, adds a weight of something like 350 lbs in addition to a weight balance of 63/37 :mad: (in the A4/S4).

While it's not important for every-day travelling, the weight balance can add a severe disadvantage in tossability of the car, not to mention the added weight that AWD brings with it. The Renesis is not a torque monster so coupling it with an AWD car that goes a tad heavy... well it would be a disaster.

Anyhoo, the RX-8 is pretty much ideal for me given my budget, at 30k. It's got room for four, a decent trunk, should handle exceptionally and be pretty quick off the line. Not to mention it looks great and if the build quality is anything like that of the Mazda6, or the Millenia I have now, it's going to be better than any Japanese car out there.

AWD for me would be good if I lived in an area like.... Wisconsin, where you get oodles and oodles of snow. Since I live in Jersey though, it snows during the season but within a day the roads are clear enough to travel on, so I'm not really worried.

rotorhead

11-14-2002, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by Speedbuggy
Ain't it weird? My old Toyota Corolla from '81 was around 2100 pounds, and that was with a larger engine than the RX-8 will be getting and surely less technological advancements. So I couldn't believe when I read they were -hoping- to bring the car in around 2800 pounds! I mean, where is the extra weight coming from? It kinda makes you wonder, huh?

C'mon, Mazda, you can do better than that. The Protege seats five and has a larger engine (2.0 liters for it's 4-banger compared to 1.3 for the Renesis). If you can't make the RX-8 at least as light as it is, you have a problem.

PS: When you're trimming weight, start with those awful 18 inch rims. Can you say unsprung weight? I knew you could.

Hey, look at the competition, especially the German tanks, 2,800 lbs is not bad! The B pillarless design requires more weighty reinforcements and the RX8 is a much larger car than the Protoge and the higher power output requires much more stiffening. What does a Mitsu Eclipse weigh? 3500?

I agree about the rims; that is why I won't get rid of the factory 14" alloys on my Miata...and the Yokos are cheap in that size...

BUT, I owned a 77 Corolla wagon (the War Wagon) and a 79 Corolla 2 door. I was afraid to hit a cat, let alone a deer or another car. The bodies on those things were ultra cheapo-hence the amazing rusting ability. When you closed a door, it sounded like a lunch box, a cheapo lunch box. Those early 80s Corollas didn't just rust, they DISSOLVED! An engineer friend at Penn State told me the Japs were using inferior, thin steel at the time. I swore my Corollas were made of steel foil. My brother had an early 80s Subaru that looked like it was shot up with a 12 guage rust gun. And at that time there were few, if any, safety requirements, which add hundreds of pounds to cars today. If you crash a 79 or 81 Corolla into a cement barrier at 35 MPH, the crash dummies will exit the car before impact because they know what's coming: certain death!

windahdah

11-14-2002, 11:01 AM

The big difference between the lighter cars of yore (like your 2100 lb. '81 Corolla) and modern cars is Chassis stiffness. In the past 10 years significant gains have been made in Chassis design by nearly all manufacturers (GM notwhithstanding). Following the lead of the German Manufacturers others soon realized that the reason BMW's and Mercedes' cars drove so well and seemed so solid was that they had really stiff Chassis'. Flexy-Flyer Chassis' are now a thing of the past but you can't add stiffness w/o adding at least some weight. The RX-8 of couse has a super stiff Chassis because it needs it to handle well and to shore up the lost "B" pillar where the rear doors usually hang from.

Safety is anther reason why cars weigh more these days. Airbags all 'round and all the techno wizardy involved in making them work adds weight. So bear in mind that 2800 Lbs is a pretty good weight for a modern car, although I'm sure Mazda could have shaved weight with Aluminum or carbon fiber body panels but that gets awfully expensive.

I agree that an AWD system in the RX-8 would be a bad move. The relatively low torque output of the Renesis means that the car will be slow off the line compared with a Corvette or 350Z, just like the old RX-7 was. BUT the RX8 will make up time soon thereafter. When the Chevy shifts at 'round 5500 RPM and the 350Z at around 7000 RPM the RX-8 is still ripping along 'til 9000 RPM. The RX-8 won't be a great car for laying long strips of rubber on the road, but will be a great car for Autocrossing or for road courses etc. So given that the RX-8 relies on it's light weight and high revving engine to generate good numbers an AWD system and the 300 lbs it would add just don't seem appropriate.

But back on point here folks...an RX-8 Sports Wagon, now that would be NEAT!

rotorhead

11-14-2002, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by windahdah
So bear in mind that 2800 Lbs is a pretty good weight for a modern car, although I'm sure Mazda could have shaved weight with Aluminum or carbon fiber body panels but that gets awfully expensive.

I remember an Audi ad a few years ago that made me chuckle. It highlighted the (whatever model)'s aluminum space and its light weight. I checked out the car and I think it weighed about 4,500 pounds...now that's heavy! I think the heaviness of the German cars is what gives them their feel.

Speedbuggy

11-14-2002, 08:25 PM

I agree the bodies rusted pretty bad on the old japanese cars, but I don't think that had to do with weak steel so much as steel that was really vulnerable to rust. I know my old Corolla was a &%!@$#ing tank, and those big black rubber bumpers could survive damned near anything.

And perhaps more to the point, "good" steel isn't necessarily any heavier than "bad" steel. In fact the best steel I know, 4120 Chrome Moly steel, is a set-carbon alloy virtually immune to rust, has extreme strength, and is quite a bit lighter than conventional steel. It's more expensive than rgular steel but less expensive than aluminum. They used to use it extensively in racing bicycles until they figured out they could charge more by convincing the customers that aluminum was better.

Point taken though about airbags and other crap they legislated into cars. I hate the damned things, I'm short so I have to sit close to the wheel so my legs will reach the pedals. If my airbag goes off, it's more likely to kill me than the accident is. It's a waste of weight and money, they legislated the crap before even working out the bugs or making sure it worked right. I guess that's policitians for you.

Me, I'd rather the agility to avoid an accident than take the chance of my car protecting me, cause in my experience they don't. Hell, even seat belts can kill you. Maybe if they had crossover belts like they use in racing, sure, they'd do some good. But lap and shoulder belts are as likely to cut your throat and rupture your organs as they are to save your life. Sad but true.

To be honest, the best thing you could possibly have in a car wreck is the same thing that saves people in motorcycle wrecks, and that's a good helmet. But it's pretty unlikely anyone will be wearing helmets inside their cars anytime soon. Hell, even I'm not really advocating the idea. But it'd be something that'd actually do some good compared to the lame-duck safety devices they are using now.

Anywho, I'm not thrilled that the RX-8 will be so heavy or that it will be larger than the Protege. I was really hoping it'd be closer to the MX-3 in size, now that was a cute and fun little car. Maybe they'll do what I'm hoping and bring back something similar to it or give us an option to get a Renesis in the Protege. For that, though, the RX-8 will have to do well. I'm really hoping it will. But it's starting to look less like what I'm looking for.

I still love that engine though.

ZoomZoom

11-17-2002, 04:49 PM

error402

11-19-2002, 12:57 PM

Seeing how this is my first post here, some of you may know me from www.rx7club.com. In any case I saw this thread an put this together real quick. Enjoy.

-Error402

http://www.rx8forum.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=15335

NOTA V6

11-19-2002, 07:05 PM

Now that doesn't look bad IMO. :) Nice job 402. :D

zoom44

11-19-2002, 07:26 PM

someone please make this thread stop. please. its like undead. it keeps coming back. someone put a stake in it already. nice photoshop skills though.

ZoomZoom

11-19-2002, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by zoom44

someone please make this thread stop. please. its like undead. it keeps coming back. someone put a stake in it already.

I agree.

windahdah

12-04-2002, 11:53 AM

Finally a good looking version of what this car might look like in wagon form. Thanks very much for the post. There's no reason the RX-8 Wagon would need to be ugly and finally wagons are making a comeback in the USA. It definitely does resemble the Alfa-Romeo Brera concept as noted earlier in this thread. Sorry all you RX-7 fans but the RX-8 Wagon idea just won't die! Suck it up and admit that you were wrong :D.

Just read the review of the first drives in Auto Week and Motor Trend magazines. They indicated a luke warm liking to the car and noted the lack of torque output compared to conventional engines. Looks like the RX-8 won't hit the market with nearly the praise that the Infiniti G35 has garnered. Further reason for Mazda to differentiate itself with a sports wagon.

pelucidor

12-04-2002, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by zoom44
someone please make this thread stop. please. its like undead. it keeps coming back. someone put a stake in it already.
This is hilarious! Roll on page 7...

Windy - how's the Aerio Wagon doing?

unemployedpimp

12-10-2002, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by windahdah
This may sound wild but I think the RX-8 would be perfect if only I could haul my dog in it too! Make it and I will buy one for sure.

wow 3000 replies

windahdah

12-11-2002, 11:21 AM

I was reading this morning while taking my AMBM that Infiniti is market testing the G35X WAGON concept. I guess the RX8 Wagon won't be the first affordable sports wagon to come to market after all. Unfortunate because it would be the most handsome and far lighter. Either way the G35 Wagon has way more torque, gets the same mileage and has a far bigger back seat than would the RX8 Wagon. Still Mazda had better not miss the next coming wave just as it has the past several (Minivans and SUV's come to mind).

The Suzuki Aerio SX Wagon is going great thanks for asking Pelucidor...it only weighs 2600 lbs and has and engine that makes 135lb/ft of TORQUE at a very low 3000 RPM (gee that's nearly as much torque as the RX8 at a way lower RPM), so it scoots around nicely. The 5spd is a joy to shift and I've added new 16" wheels/tires, so the handling is better than stock. I've also added an AEM CAI so power is up to around 155 or so and I have yet to add the cat back exhaust which should put me around 165 HP at 6000 RPM. I plan to add a FSTB soon too and may add the aftermarket rear swaybar and bushings from Progressive. There's a big brake kit and short shifter kit too but that may have to wait. Springs are out, I want some ride quality...Watch out for Aerio SX's coming to the Autocross scene soon. Best of all we moved recently and you wouldn't believe how the little sucker swallowed box load after box load. It looks different for sure but after the wheels and the tinted windows it make other the other cars I park next to look so old school. The biggest smile of all comes when I think that I paid only US$16K for it and got 0% financing for 60 mos. Don't ask the car mags what they think about it though they hate it because...IT HAS A DIGITAL SPEEDOMETER!!! Oh yeah, so does the RX8...Right??

rotorhead

12-11-2002, 02:09 PM

Over on the Miata.net, you'll see the same kind of posts from Dodge Omni, er, Neon owners. They seem to make their arguments about as long as their Chrapler products last, which isn't long. I hope for the best for you windy, but those Suzukis are ugly as Hill and, well, they're Suzukis. If Suzuki's styling (or lack thereof) is new school, I'm dropping out. Or am I the only one that thinks the Aztek is ugly too?

Puppy1

12-11-2002, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by rotorhead
If Suzuki's styling (or lack thereof) is new school, I'm dropping out. Or am I the only one that thinks the Aztek is ugly too?

I always thought it would be funny to have a movie made that was set in some kind of an alternative reality, populated with the uggliest cars ever made. The story would have nothing to do with the cars, they would just be there in the background.

I'm thinking AMC Pacer, AMC Gremlin, Pontiac Aztec, Ford Pinto, Nash metropolitan, that 3 wheeled europeon car with the entire front of the car that was the door (the one Urkel drove), and any other ugly car you can think of, especially that psuedo crossover tall boxey station wagon (Sentra?) Nissan made in the late 80's.

Hercules

12-11-2002, 03:26 PM

Originally posted by Puppy1

I always thought it would be funny to have a movie made that was set in some kind of an alternative reality, populated with the uggliest cars ever made. The story would have nothing to do with the cars, they would just be there in the background.

I'm thinking AMC Pacer, AMC Gremlin, Pontiac Aztec, Ford Pinto, Nash metropolitan, that 3 wheeled europeon car with the entire front of the car that was the door (the one Urcle drove), and any other ugly car you can think of, especially that psuedo crossover tall boxey station wagon (Sentra?) Nissan made in the late 80's. That three wheeler was a Reliant Robin :)

http://pages.zoom.co.uk/elvis/Robin65.jpg

Puppy1

12-11-2002, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Hercules
That three wheeler was a Reliant Robin :)

Actually I had never seen that car before. Can we say Butt F****** ugly!

That has to be the uglyest car I've ever seen!!!

Hercules

12-11-2002, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Puppy1

Actually I had never seen that car before. Can we say Butt F****** ugly!

That has to be the uglyest car I've ever seen!!! Oh I don't know what car Urkel drove... I remember it now though... Urkel's g/f was kinda cute :)

Puppy1

12-11-2002, 03:36 PM

Urkel's trademark car, the BMW Isetta
http://www.cqql.net/iz-closeddoor1.jpg

pelucidor

12-12-2002, 10:22 AM

Who can name the TV series where the Reliant Robin was the car owned by the main characters. Nobody from the UK is eligible for this contest....

Puppy1

12-12-2002, 10:28 AM

this has got to be the Energizer Bunny thread. It keeps going and going....

windahdah

01-07-2003, 01:51 PM

Wow have you all noticed how many wagon concepts there are at the Detroit auto show? The Maserati Kubang concept wagon is one of the hottest items in the show. It seems to me that it looks like what an oversized RX-8 Sportwagon might look like....

Speedbuggy

01-07-2003, 05:16 PM

Your point? Mazda jumping on bandwagons and following trends got them precisely nowhere. How well did their SUV do, or their minivan, even at the height of those trends? Not very. Why? Because people bought the nameplates they asociated with those concepts, not knock-offs. When did Mazda gain it's biggest hit? When it started it's -own- trend with the Miata and everyone else was jumping on the bandwagon to carve out a share of the market they created with that car. Mazda needs to be a leader, not a follower.

Beyond that, how many times do you have to be told that the RX-8 is NOT wagon material? It's rear area is just too small, the cargo space would be pathetic. Really, to get much useful cargo space at all you'd have to make the car taller overall and longer behind the rear wheels. And once you do that, it's not the same car at all...

As I've said, a fastback with hatch and open cargo area I can easily see. Sure, you won't gain much cargo space, but it wouldn't hurt anything either and the fastback concept has other appeals besides cargo capacity. To make it a wagon, however, would be pointless because you still wouldn't gain enough useful cargo space to be worthwhile and the gain in weight and the destruction of the weight distribution would simply not be worth it.

Put another way, they could make it a wagon and it STILL wouldn't have room for your dog and the stuff you want to carry, and it would drive like sh!t besides. So if they DID make one, you probably wouldn't want it once you realized how tiny the cargo area would be.

Are we done with this now?

*still waiting for my Renesis-equipped Mazdaspeed Protege*

B-Nez

01-08-2003, 02:28 AM

Well, I think we can officially call this thread DEAD. Take a look at Charlie Hughes' and Jay Amestoy's remarks on rotarynews.com. Specifically, read about their reaction when presented a photoshopped RX-8 wagon from this forum.:D

zoom44

01-08-2003, 02:49 AM

well the thread isnt since you and i posteed to it but the issue is.... charlie hughes laughed out loud when the question wasraised and he was shown a photochop from this thread!! and gave an emphatic no!!

RX-3_13B_Tommo

01-08-2003, 05:24 AM

As if the press hasn't rapped enough shit on the RX-8 for not being a TRUE sports car by having 4seats, what are they gonna say when you make it a wagon? How'd you feel about an RX-7 wagon? It's look shit. If you want a sports wagon, get a second turbo whacked in a wrx engine and shove it in a Liberty wagon, Or get a B4 engine. Geez. :mad:

windahdah

01-08-2003, 11:38 AM

I'm sure those two probably saw the first Photoslop job version of the wagon posted on this thread, not the second. That image was a joke and was done by a guy that hated the concept. The Alfa Brera and the new Mazerati wagon prove that wagons CAN be both sporty and good looking if done right.

Take a look at Charlie Hughes' and Jay Amestoy's remarks on rotarynews.com. Specifically, read about their reaction when presented a photoshopped RX-8 wagon from this forum.

Yes my friends this is exactly the kind of narrowminded thinking that led Mazda to have to sell out to Ford. Now their troubles have REALLY begun. Do you think the lame ass Ford management would have ever approved the Miata had they owned the company back then? Not likely I think.

The MPV minivan was a poor seller because it was a poor vehicle, basically a van body dropped on Mazda's crummy truck chassis. As for the Navajo SUV well it was a Ford Ranger turned Explorer turned Mazda. Smacks of the future for Mazda. Besides the RX8 Sportwagon is the antithesis of an SUV.

As for bandwagons the "Sport Crossover" movement is certainly here and growing, yet I certainly wouldn't classify the RX8 sportwagon as a sport crossover. More like ummmm.....a "Sport Wagon". The basic idea behind this movement is that we don't have to sacrifice sport to get utility. The BMW wagons are no slower than their sedans, same for the Audi's and Mercedes wagons, so why would the RX8 wagon be any less sporty than the sedan? You certainly can't argue that it would have less interior volume, so where's the rub? What's your problem with this idea? Because YOU think it might be UGLY in your mind's cloudy vision? Wow, stop the world, I'm getting off.

....how many times do you have to be told that the RX-8 is NOT wagon material?

Umm....yess daddy, I'll just go to my room and cry now OK? I forgot that you were the knower of all things, amost Deiety like in your knowledge of car design. I cower in the presence of your wit.

Sadly the RX8 is the last true Mazda you're likely to see any time soon, what with Ford's well publicized financial woes. From here on out Mazda's are going to be some warmed over Ford models (like the New 6) with little or no unique personality or virtue. Mazda's will be "market focused" so as not to intrude on Volvo or Jaguar or Mercury or Lincoln or Ford's market position. Furthermore they will all be homogenized "platforms" (likely a very marinal Ford based one at that) with slight "tweaks" for a particular brand. Smacks of the GM "Brand Management" failure from the 90's. Would you be willing to buy a BMW if you knew the thing was a warmed over Fiat or something? How do you feel about the new GM owned Saab 9-3? Talk about homogenized, and I never really liked Saab in the first place. This is the future I'm afraid....I looked in daddy's crystal ball and it told me so.

Sayonara "Zoom Zoom", Ford marketing must have come up with that one. I guess Mazda is Ford's new Pontiac. Perhaps they'll add more cladding to the MPV and the Protege in response. Oops...they already did, I snicker and laugh in your general direction....Perhaps they should add a big non functional air scoop on the hood?

Speedbuggy

01-08-2003, 06:15 PM

Oh please... if that were the case, they'd not be making the RX-8 or it's Renesis powerplant at ALL, because the first thing Ford did when they came aboard was to put the kibosh on any new sports car concepts and to kill the rotary engine entirely. Nevertheless, here they are, because Mazda insisted it was the heart and soul of their company.

Do you know what was said by Mazda about the Tribute, which everyone knows is virtually identical to the Ford Escape? "Never again will Mazda and Ford build so similar a vehicle". No matter that it sells, or that SUV's in the Ford style are popular. It doesn't fit their vision, so they have pledged to never make the same mistake again.

Contrary to what you seem to believe, Ford does NOT own Mazda. Nor does it own a controlling interest. The percentage of the company that Ford owns is under 50%, and it takes 51% or more to have controllig interest in a company. Ford uses more Mazda engineering and technology in it's own small engines and small cars than Mazda uses anything of Ford's.

By the way, what model of Ford is the 6 based on, if I might ask? Since you brought it up. I'm curious to know, because it doesn't match anything I can think of that Ford makes.

One last thing. Do you plan at all to answer my points about the lack of cargo space in an RX-8 wagon, or how changing the vehicle's rear proportions to create such a dismally tiny cargo area would impact weight distribution and performance?

Really, how much room do you think you can get from boxing in the area from the beginning of the back window to the end of the trunk lid? A few square feet if you're lucky? Considering how low the roofline is, and how short the rear deck is, there just isn't much space there. Again, you would not have the room you're looking for. Wagon or not, there will never be a large amount of cargo space in this vehicle. Understand yet?

Someone out there who knows how to calculate this stuff, would you mind figuring up what the cargo space would be if you were to make the wagon Windadah wants? Maybe once he realizes how tiny it would be, he'll understand why the rest of us think it's impractical.

windahdah

01-08-2003, 06:55 PM

Yes, I believe that the Mazda 6 chassis is the same as the Euro only Ford Mondeo. Same chassis underpins the Jag X type. Ford decided not to bring the Mondeo here as the new Contour because it would have cannibalized sales of the oh so outdated Taurus.

I don't know how much room there would or wouldn't be, I have yet to see the actual car. If the roofline is low then raise it. It's all conjecture at this point for most of us. As for weight distribution most front engine cars are front heavy rear light by nature. Adding a 50 lbs of glass and metal to the rear end for a wagon usually helps get more weight on the rear wheels thereby improving balance. Acceleration and braking would be largely unchanged and handling would be marginally better thanks to the rear weight bias of the wagon.

Speedbuggy

01-08-2003, 07:36 PM

Raise the roofline??? Are you joking?! Do you have any idea how costly and impractical that would be? You're talking about changing the shape and proportions of the entire car! And all to turn it into something that you want instead of what it was designed to be.

If Mazda wants a serious sport wagon --and they might--, it makes far more sense to design a car with that end in mind than to try to alter a car designed for something else entirely. Can it share a platform with the RX-8? Sure, I see no reason why not, they've already said they intend to use that platform in as many other applications as possible to help defray production costs. Can it share styling cues with the RX-8? Again, no reason why not. But when you talk about utterly altering the RX-8 to shoehorn it into the wagon mold, you've gone too far. If they raise the roofline and extend the rear wheelbase and all the other things necessary to turn it into a practical sport wagon, then guess what? IT'S NOT AN RX-8 ANYMORE AT ALL. So, since it's not an RX-8, you might as well call it what it is -- an entirely different model. Thus, you can NOT have an RX-8 wagon. Because if you alter it to turn it into a wagon, it's not an RX-8. It's something else. Get it?

And another thing. Did you read anything at all about this car? It is NOT front heavy. It was deliberately designed with 50-50 weight distribution, which was one of the primary aims they were going for. Thus, adding weight to the rear would not help weight distributiona and balance, it would only hurt it.

None of this is "conjecture" at all. The car is -finished- it's design process and has begun production. Altering it in the way you describe is not a matter of altering some blueprints, you're talking about making major changes to a vehicle that does indeed already exist. You're talking about nothing less than a whole new body for the car, and that costs money. A lot of it.

Be smart, and ask Mazda for a serious sport wagon based on the RX-8 platform. But don't go asking them to spend the money to create a bastardized hybrid that will will do none of the jobs you're trying to make it do. Because none of us will be happy then, especially not you when you drive it and realize that it performs like crap and doesn't have room for more than a couple of sacks of groceries in the tiny joke of a cargo area and your dog is STILL riding in the front seat with you.

Are we done with this yet?

windahdah

01-09-2003, 11:42 AM

So you're saying that instead of making an RX8 sportwagon that they should launch an whole new vehicle based on the RX8 platform with the RX8 motor? What's the difference? Sure man, call it the Bugaboo...I don't care. Fact is I'd be a shiatsu load more likely to buy something like that rather than the relatively impractical and non-utilitarian RX8. Like most people out there I'd love to dive a true sports car but can't afford to sacrifice virtually all utility.

Your arguement about cost is ludicrous....Are you seriously trying to propose that it's cheaper to make a whole new car as opposed to modifying an existing one slightly? Rooiiigghht....

As for weight distribution penalties...let's do a little math just 'cause that's what engineer's and scientists and stuff do OK? The RX8 weighs a hefty 2900 lbs, the wagon would add 50 lbs. for a total of 2950 (look at the weight difference between other wagons/sedans and you'll find this to be an accurate number). On the RX8 that would be 2900/2=1450 per axle. Now we take 1450+50 to get 1500 which we divide over 2950 (the wagon's new weight) to get.....49.2/50.8 front rear weight distribution. Perhaps that .8% change would RADICALLY alter the vehicle's dynamics but I kinda doubt it.....

Bring on the New Rotarty Powered Bugaboo with 49.2/50.8% front rear wieght distribution, the world is WAITING! Meanwhile I'll just count on the new Infinity GX35 wagon, it'll be faster anyway.

B-Nez

01-09-2003, 04:07 PM

What do you think your weight distribution will be when you get on the throttle?

zoom44

01-09-2003, 04:36 PM

this will be my last post on this topic and especially in this thread:
PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF MIKE WOULD EVERYONE STOP RESPONDING TO THIS MADNESS. IT JUST KEEPS IT GOING! no offense windadah meant towards you, i just cant stand this thread anymore and wish it would just go away.

D MENAC 7

10-26-2004, 07:12 AM

Hey Charlie! You know, this search feature works better than I thought. :D

hotpot

10-26-2004, 07:32 AM

Someone finally revived this thread! :eek:

SpinninAgain!

10-26-2004, 09:31 AM

Look, I want to be able to haul my dog and 3 other people in fast efficient comfort and style. Toss the doggie in the boot, open the pass-through so he can stick his head through and drool in the rear cupholders. Everybody's happy! :p

Seriously, if the design were done with some flair I think a hatchback could look pretty cool. I'm not holding my breath though.

windahdah

10-26-2004, 09:34 AM

Sorry to say folx but the RX-8 SUX! Let's see, it gets worse gas mileage than a Ford Explorer, makes Less Torque than a Toyota Corolla and weighs more too! Let's not even get started on how the Rotary burns more oil than an Iraqi Well Fire! I'm sorry but I really haven't seen many RX-8's out there, so I guess other people feel like I do....18MPG! Are you f'ing kidding? If you're going to get that kind of mileage you'd at least expect it to haul loads of crap or people! 18MPG and no torque? Gee, I wonder why the Rotary is soon to be dead all over again? Best of luck to all of you who bought one....Bet you can't wait for $3 gasoline huh?

Chrisbert

10-26-2004, 09:38 AM

The WRX Wagon has been reported to handle better than the sedan because the weight distribution is closer to 50/50.

foxman

10-26-2004, 09:46 AM

^^^
http://host-link.com/images/trollxing.jpg

D MENAC 7

10-26-2004, 11:38 AM

Tayninh

10-26-2004, 11:53 AM

This may sound wild but I think the RX-8 would be perfect if only I could haul my dog in it too! Make it and I will buy one for sure.

It appears the RX-8 is getting bashed by the poster so what gives with what you first started to write?

Ike

10-26-2004, 12:01 PM

This may sound wild but I think the RX-8 would be perfect if only it had 400 hp and had a pullout bed and discoglobe in the back! Make it and I will buy one for sure.

Tayninh

10-26-2004, 12:28 PM

For the money a shop could take an RX and turn it into whatever you wanted. Not sure 400 hp unless they increase the number of rotaries. Then again, for the money it could be done. Even if you could afford to mod an RX like this would you really want to do that to an RX?

Ike

10-26-2004, 12:34 PM

Humor is so lost on some people...

frig

10-26-2004, 12:46 PM

It gives me flashbacks of a Volvo P1800 ES. That's for us old timers that can remember that far back.

BIMMER5&RX8

10-26-2004, 12:49 PM

You are too poluted by the image of American station wagons with fake wood side panels. Sport wagons are great. Just look at those BMW, Audi, and Volkswgen sport wagons. In Europe there are many of those on the road.

chalk another reason as to why i am NOT buying an RX8. images of the WRX sport wagon and the IS300 sport cross have entered my head and i cant sleep anymore...thanks

SAY NO TO STATION WAGONS!

Tayninh

10-26-2004, 01:02 PM

Wood sides? Maybe an RX-8 woodie then!! I still like the 400 hp grocery getter idea. No, my humor went out the window today. Sorry

zoom44

10-26-2004, 01:32 PM

Hey Charlie! You know, this search feature works better than I thought. :D

why's it say banned under your name? :D damn you menac!! not only did you bring it back up but you got windadah back here too!! nooooooooooo!!! :eek:

Who's peeking out from under a stairway
Calling a name that's lighter than air
Who's bending down to give me a rainbow
Everyone knows it's Windy

that's it everyone who has posted in this thread gets a WARNING!! you too IKE :p

*steps into the on deck circle. starts taking practice swings with banning stick* :D

zoom44

10-26-2004, 01:36 PM

if you want a sport wagon Mazda makes a lovely 6wagon. its even got awd in europe. Or the mazda 3 hatch is nice also.

ike- couldnt you just use the discoglobe from your current car so you didnt have to buy a new one? :D :rolleyes:

StewC625

10-26-2004, 01:40 PM

Anyone remember the BMW M-Coupe? It's an M-Roadster with a weird "sport-bak" on it ... gotta think that's what a wagon-8 would look like.

http://www.theautochannel.com/cybercast/laautoshow98/images/bmw_m_coupe.jpg

Tayninh

10-26-2004, 01:47 PM

Not

foxman

10-26-2004, 02:17 PM

fugly

foxman

10-26-2004, 02:54 PM

http://host-link.com/images/sni.gif

presto chango rx wagon

Tayninh

10-26-2004, 03:01 PM

That's a pretty good presto there foxman.

rx8wannahave

10-26-2004, 03:16 PM

RX-8 station wagon...GOD HELP US ALL!!!

I don't care how they make it look, how much HP they give it...a WAGON is a WAGON...nothing more...but could be much less.

Heck, some people complain the 8 is 2+2 and has 2 extra doorlitz...if they build a wagon RX-8...they should just put in a V-8 and call it VX-8 or something.

Other than a supercharger or turbo...leave the 8 alone....

Wagon...I mean come on man...LOL :p

D MENAC 7

10-26-2004, 05:24 PM

why's it say banned under your name? :D damn you menac!! not only did you bring it back up but you got windadah back here too!! nooooooooooo!!! :eek:
that's it everyone who has posted in this thread gets a WARNING!! you too IKE :p
*steps into the on deck circle. starts taking practice swings with banning stick* :Dhe he he :D ;)

brothervoodoo

10-26-2004, 07:40 PM

Here's a concept for you. And to commemorate the release of "GTA," ...

http://home.comcast.net/~store0001/rx8sigs/rx8wagon2.jpg

zoom44

10-26-2004, 07:47 PM

AAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGRGRRRGRRGGGHHHGGGHHHHHH!!!!!
\

See what you have caused D? it will go on like this for months now......... :o :( :rolleyes: :) :(

jtimbck2

10-26-2004, 09:07 PM

Anyone remember the BMW M-Coupe? It's an M-Roadster with a weird "sport-bak" on it ... gotta think that's what a wagon-8 would look like.

I was thinking the same thing...

D MENAC 7

10-26-2004, 10:29 PM

Here's a concept for you. And to commemorate the release of "GTA," some added bling to the wheels... http://home.covad.net/~carrillo/emoticon/penser.gif http://home.covad.net/~carrillo/emoticon/langue.gif

http://home.covad.net/~carrillo/rx8wagon2.jpg
You beatme to it brothervoodoo. And I was working on this with photoshop too. :D rats. You can try to ban me but I can come back from the dead!

devious12

10-26-2004, 11:18 PM

Why don't you throw a 4 rotor in it as well!!!

BlueFrenzy

10-27-2004, 03:06 AM

Heh heh ... this thread is funny. I personally can do WITHOUT the wagon but wouldn't be opposed to a fastback version.

I'm surprised that after all this talk about wagons (ie subaru WRX wagon, etc) that nobody mentioned the Dodge Magnum. I don't know much about it but from a superficial point of view, looks like its plenty strong and has lots of room.
Guy#1"What do you have in that?"
Guy#2"A stepladder, guitar, amp, etc"

Regardless, I'll stick with the "normal" version of the RX8

ZoomZoomH

10-06-2006, 04:39 PM

BUMP!

BUMP because zoom linked this to my *new* rx8 wagon thread lol

here it is

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?p=1560574

Freddie

10-07-2006, 10:08 AM