A few months ago, I bought my RX-8 because I wanted to save money compare to the other cars I had. I bought it knowing the fact that it will be slower than the last couple cars I owned, but I have been extremely disappointed at how slow it is at the track. Since the purpose of this car is to save $$$ for a year or two, I just want to see what budget mods are out there for me to at least close the gap for next year.

Yes, tires will be upgraded for next year. I am thinking about what other ways I can improve on it without spending too much money.

A few months ago, I bought my RX-8 because I wanted to save money compare to the other cars I had. I bought it knowing the fact that it will be slower than the last couple cars I owned, but I have been extremely disappointed at how slow it is at the track. Since the purpose of this car is to save $$$ for a year or two, I just want to see what budget mods are out there for me to at least close the gap for next year.

Yes, tires will be upgraded for next year. I am thinking about what other ways I can improve on it without spending too much money.

Free mod. Gut it. Pull everything out for the track. And replace your seat with light race seat. Sure you will spend a couple of hours before and after every event, but it will cost you nearly nothing and will help with acceleration, braking and cornering. :biggthump

budget + performance?

oxymoron?

When you say 'track', do you mean road course or drag strip? I do not find the 8 slow on a road course.

When you say 'track', do you mean road course or drag strip? I do not find the 8 slow on a road course.

I agree, on a road course an RX8 out of the box with a good set of R-compounds and track pads is not a slow car.

Who exactly are you trying to beat?
I knew my car wasn't going to beat a corvette Z06 at the track before I bought the thing.. I think its plenty fast and a lot of fun at the track.
I don't know if I can beat the other guys in my class, a nissan 350Z and an 89 Corvette, the vette is a good 4 seconds faster then my 1:31 laptime, that's hard to make up. I did just start in april and have a lot to learn yet :)

If your fat you could lose weight.

What were your previous cars?

Unlike an Evo or a 350Z or a Corvette where you can use power to mask mistakes and come up with good lap times, the RX-8 is a momentum car. Momentum cars will really teach you to minimize unecessary braking and perfect your line through the corner. You'll have to learn to maximize speed wherever you can and you'll need to work on shifting the car a lot more to keep it in the relatively narrow powerband.

Tires and alignment are my first suggestions. A stock RX-8 is pretty softly sprung, but don't confuse that with slow. The stock suspension works very well. Once you've dialed in the alignment and added decent tires, work on the driver (this is the best mod, since it carries over to any other car you drive). Seek out instructors with experience in momentum cars, like Spec Miatas.

Your best performance mod right now would be just get as much track time as possible, or take some track driving lessons.

There is no point in spending money to modify your car when you really aren't extracting its full potential yet. The RX8 is a great car out of the box, so learn to extract its full potential before adding parts.If you only had it a few months, you still aren't extracting at least 60% of what the car has to offer. By modifying it too soon, you are never going to properly learn your car.

Take a performance track driving course, and/or have someone experienced ride with you, or have an experienced person take you around in your car. Do as many lapping days as you can and focus on your driving firstly.

You say the RX8 it slow at the track? I politely disagree, and say its the driver that needs the work. I guarantee you that if you do this, you will soon realize that your most valuable mod, is the driver.

budget + performance?

oxymoron?

exactly

Speed is money. How fast can you afford to go?

exactly

Speed is money. How fast can you afford to go?

I didn't think the RX-8 was all that mod friendly to begin with, there are other cars that will take to cheaper mods much better..

he said without spending much money, track time=a lot of money. Also there are things that can make you go a lot faster without becoming a better driver....tires comes to mind and is the single largest factor.

Your best performance mod right now would be just get as much track time as possible, or take some track driving lessons.

There is no point in spending money to modify your car when you really aren't extracting its full potential yet. The RX8 is a great car out of the box, so learn to extract its full potential before adding parts.If you only had it a few months, you still aren't extracting at least 60% of what the car has to offer. By modifying it too soon, you are never going to properly learn your car.

Take a performance track driving course, and/or have someone experienced ride with you, or have an experienced person take you around in your car. Do as many lapping days as you can and focus on your driving firstly.

You say the RX8 it slow at the track? I politely disagree, and say its the driver that needs the work. I guarantee you that if you do this, you will soon realize that your most valuable mod, is the driver.

You bought the wrong car to save money.

I should have rephrased my word. The car is slow relative to cars in its class. I am not saying it is a Miata, but it is not exactly a car that can put up fights with S2000/350Z/EVO/STI stock. I know a lot of it goes to the way the classes are formed and the mods allowed, but it seems to be an uphill battle no matter where you go other than parking lots. I am just hoping for something that can improve quite a bit w/o blowing my budget. With the turbo cars, you get power easily by doing simple things. In the Z cars, you pick up tons of corner speeds by doing a control arm to add camber. I am hoping there is something in the RX-8 that can provide a great bang for the buck. Brakes and tires are already done (although the R888 I have left a lot to be desire), but for planning purposes, just want to see what will give me a good bang for the buck in limited budget.

One of the poster is right that I have to completely relearn from driving a HP car to a momentum car. At the same time, the off corner speed is just sad on the RX-8. I have tried using different gears and rev the piss out of it, the result was pretty much the same. As soon as the car gets on power, it is already over. Apex speed, entry speed, they all don't matter when you can't get the speed off the turns

basic mods will make you competitive with stock 350z s2000 etc
What are you allowed to do ?

basic mods will make you competitive with stock 350z s2000 etc
What are you allowed to do ?

:lol:

You are right that I definitely left some times off the table, I am 100% sure of that as I am still getting use to the car. Of course there is only so much I can do when I am almost cornering the same speed as my other cars and running nearly the same lines (did win a few TT back in the days). The difference in acceleration is so great that there is only so much I can do, it also doesn't help that two of my R888s are shot! Still, I wish I have 40% left out there to pick up off the car. I have run against a similar RX-8 equipped with slicks, it is noticeable quicker and I wll definitely do a set of slicks next time. Even with slicks, I will still need some extra help if I want to keep my pace with my competitions. I am just looking at every option to see what is worth or not worth doing.

http://img411.imageshack.us/i/vir3carcompare.pdf/ Red is the RX-8....

Your best performance mod right now would be just get as much track time as possible, or take some track driving lessons.

There is no point in spending money to modify your car when you really aren't extracting its full potential yet. The RX8 is a great car out of the box, so learn to extract its full potential before adding parts.If you only had it a few months, you still aren't extracting at least 60% of what the car has to offer. By modifying it too soon, you are never going to properly learn your car.

Take a performance track driving course, and/or have someone experienced ride with you, or have an experienced person take you around in your car. Do as many lapping days as you can and focus on your driving firstly.

You say the RX8 it slow at the track? I politely disagree, and say its the driver that needs the work. I guarantee you that if you do this, you will soon realize that your most valuable mod, is the driver.

basic mods will make you competitive with stock 350z s2000 etc
What are you allowed to do ?

What basic mods will allow me to pick up 3+ sec over a one minute course. I can probably pick up one second going to a full slick than my half slick, you have to tell me where to find 2 more secs without blowing major $$$ into the car. Of course this is assuming the other car stays stock

Sway bars will give you more stability.... Drop the car... get some Tein S tech's.

Wtv that's all im going to say.

Get a midpipe too, it'll help you out alot.

I don't know about 3 seconds but I know I could keep up with a stock 350z on a 1/2 mile straight with the few NA mods I had .
Midpipe + freeflow exhaust
Tune (accessport)
lightweight flywheel
Racing beat duct sealed into stock intake with k&n drop in
AP underdrive pulley
I also used to remove any excess weight that didn't take too long to do (rear seats, tools, floormats etc.)

I dont track my car but i do spend a fair amount of time on back roads adn can tell you that a good set of sway bars will do wonders on how this car handles. i bought a set of racing beats and upgraded the front end links for mine and i could tell a night and day difference in how it behaved. I'd say if you were able to take the corners faster than your competition it would cut down on your times and help with the lack of acceleration compared to your competition.

My .02 anyway.

I know it is three + seconds because I owned and drove both cars with same brakes and similar tires. The acceleration difference is pretty much what I showed you, the Z also feels less scary through the steady state turns as it has stiffer suspension. The RX-8 feels a lot nicer in the transition though.

I would like to keep the car emission legal, so have to pass on the midpipe. My car is 3200lbs (vs 3440lbs on my Z)exactly with full tank and me at the track. I have heard exhaust on the RX-8 really doesn't equate to much, so I don't know if it is worth while. The RX-8 I met at the track did seem to have more power down the straight, but then it could just be because he came off the corner faster. I think all he had was a muffler.

I did think about a RB tune, but is there a true benefit to a stock car with just the flash?

I dont track my car but i do spend a fair amount of time on back roads adn can tell you that a good set of sway bars will do wonders on how this car handles. i bought a set of racing beats and upgraded the front end links for mine and i could tell a night and day difference in how it behaved. I'd say if you were able to take the corners faster than your competition it would cut down on your times and help with the lack of acceleration compared to your competition.

My .02 anyway.

Most sports car corners at roughly the same speed, tires are the biggest factors. With a slower car, you could take advantage of how to dive into the turn as you don't have to deal with the heavy braking motion

No offense, but most ppl use extra acceleration in their cars to mask driving skill. I'm so glad I started in a slow as car complete with slushbox. Knowing that it is hard to get to high speeds forced me to keep my car at high speeds. With that said
Tires
Sways
and HPDE's. Once you learn how to keep your speeds up during turns, you'll shave off those three seconds in no time.
Lastly, what track are you running at? Some tracks give the 8 an advantage... some really dont.

If your fat you could lose weight.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha yeah stop eating for a month then go back on the track, lol

All I'm saying is most people tend to think they need to modify their car off the bat to make it quicker at the track, but they rarely can actually drive the car properly to begin with, which is why they think they are slow.

Now, If you run a track that has alot of straights, yes you car will be at a disadvantage But if you run a tight track, you will notice you are keeping up with most other cars that were demolishing you on the straights.

If you are dead set on modifying your car, or you run mainly fast tracks, you really don't have many budget options because you are looking at engine modifications. some tuning and bolt on's may help you slightly, but you still won't be keeping up with any s2000's or 350's because you cannot compete with their power.

If you have the luxury of trying other tracks, look for one that's tight and technical. If you can do that, I suggest upgrading your cooling system firstly. Maybe the oil cooler fans, upgraded water pump ect... its not that expensive and will help your engine last longer.

Again, just my opinion.

seat time, tires, coilovers. Try to find more technical tracks like the shenandoah circuit @ Summit point, those tracks makes our car soo much more enjoyable.

I think slow is subjective and it would be good to know what cars are you benchmarking against.
I try to share my personal experiences with other cars that I know of (from track logging data). This is over a course of 5.5km with two 800m straights (so I presume horsepower can have a significant impact) with my own timing of mid 2.40s
My performance mods include IHE, reflash & 4.77 FD. I dyno at 184whp as attached somewhere before and runs UHP tyre during trackdays. No lightening for trackdays too.

Against relatively stock s2k (with Intake+exhaust+UHP only)
- I am running about 2kph (192kph) slower on the straights and concerning speed is comparable with me being slower by 2-3kph on most corner. On overall laptimes, I am about 3sec slower than him.

Against Mx-5 (IHE + UHP)
- about 15kph faster than the mx-5 on the straights. Corners abt 3-5kph faster than mx-5 on some corners. I am about 6 sec faster than him

Against new STi (IHE + remap + UHP)
- about 10kph slower than STi on that straights. Rx-8 corners abt 3-5kph faster but the STi really come out punching from the corner real strong. My timing is about 3 sec slower than STi.

Against evo x (many many diff variation)
- on the straight the E10 can be 20+kph faster than me for a 400bhp variant to about 10kph faster for exhaust + reflash variant. Cornering speed is comparable for those running on UHP and those running on semi-slicks can gain up to 10kph on me. E10 timing varies from 2.30 (someone who won a timeattack) to 2.45 (comparable to rx-8)

Against JDM Civic Type R (exhaust+reflash + UHP)
- on the straight the CTR is about 3kph faster than me. Corner speed is comparable and timing is about 2.43 (3 sec faster than me)

The rx-8 is a good driver car for someone relatively new to tracking, like me who have limited experience.
My two cents and hope is useful for your comparison

PS: All the comparison car including mine runs coilover except the Civic Type R, which already comes with rock hard stock suspension

seat time, tires, coilovers. Try to find more technical tracks like the shenandoah circuit @ Summit point, those tracks makes our car soo much more enjoyable.

+1 vote for "The Shen"! 20-plus corners of "Can I get it right THIS time!?!" :ylsuper:

I love VIR, Summit Point Main is OK, Watkins Glen was a dream come true, but when I get this crap straightened out at home and can play on track with the -8 again, Shenandoah is where I'm going to start the season.

I mean seriously, where else can you see three different straightaways with three utterly different exit corners, one of them being the Karrusel (170 degrees of high-banked concrete excitement)? :cool:

There aren't many tracks in the US or the world that will favor the RX-8, it's virtually an uphill battle no matter where you go (I was just at Pocono East, a course you don't even get over 95 in a RX-8). I guess I just have to accept that I will be battling with the middle of the pack guys rather than the ones in the top pack. Hopefully the new RX-7 will have some more power to keep up while keeping the balance and handling.

I am dead set on getting rid of the R888 for the R1s next year, I will most likely get a set of coilovers or maybe sways (I prefer coilovers as it is not a bandit fix like sways). If possible, maybe I will look for the ECU reflash too since that seems to be the only way to extract power from this motor. I guess that's all I can really do without wasting money from the next car. :icon_no2:

Here are the difference in times with me as the driver.

Pocono North
350z 1:00.4 (stock except pads, on 235 RA1s)
C6 59.4 (stock except pads & worn R888s)
RX-8 1:04 (stock except pads, on worn 265 R888 (2 have cords))
Track record in the class is a stock Nismo Z on 285 R6s running 59.4. Most drivers in S2000 runs somewhere in the 1:02 range. Not sure about mods as I never drove them

Pocono East (POURING RAIN)
350z 1:17.8
RX-8 1:20.0

VIR Full
2:24 RX-8
2:18 350z
2:14 C6

There was a RX-8 that is similar to mine running 2:23 at VIR. It was mostly the same as my car except it had R1s to it. I am sure he is still faster, but the difference should be smaller with the right tires.


All I'm saying is most people tend to think they need to modify their car off the bat to make it quicker at the track, but they rarely can actually drive the car properly to begin with, which is why they think they are slow.

Now, If you run a track that has alot of straights, yes you car will be at a disadvantage But if you run a tight track, you will notice you are keeping up with most other cars that were demolishing you on the straights.

If you are dead set on modifying your car, or you run mainly fast tracks, you really don't have many budget options because you are looking at engine modifications. some tuning and bolt on's may help you slightly, but you still won't be keeping up with any s2000's or 350's because you cannot compete with their power.

If you have the luxury of trying other tracks, look for one that's tight and technical. If you can do that, I suggest upgrading your cooling system firstly. Maybe the oil cooler fans, upgraded water pump ect... its not that expensive and will help your engine last longer.

Again, just my opinion.

Can always go FI :P but that blows the whole "budget" idea...

that's when I say f it and buy a new car

You'll never be able to make up the HP deficit vs. others with inexpensive mods like ECU, there's just very little power to be gained and a good chance of denonating/overheating your engine on track if you try.

Things to possibly improve times (except FI) are 'good' r-comps tires, lightening everything possible (interior, rotors, calipers, wheels, accessories), and sorting out the suspension to your particular liking (sways, strut bars, coilovers, body braces).

Then there is your driving style and track line, that while it may have fit your previous car's profiles and lead to success in times attained, may not work w/momentum cars like the 8. Habits on track can be hard to break, work on them, study what winning drivers do, plan and experiment, use your track data and revise thru feedback. Seconds can be found, but they are hard earned, and not just done with your right foot, because there's so little there.

When properly setup and executed on track (concerning both your car and your state of mind), I find there is a point that you can attain levels of speed and cornering that really are quite good and certainly rewarding.

BTW we are talking a 6sp car here yes?

Still doesn't mean you'll beat all other CARS at the track, but it does mean many other DRIVERS will stop by wondering how your underpowered car and you can do what you do and pass many of them. The 8 is not a brute force track demon you need to finesse it a lot, as you are likely finding out.

You are absolutely right about a lot of those things, that's why I was trying to gather info to see what is a good mod or a bad mod. I already went through the stages of heavily modifying cars, I don't want to do that again. I am looking for little things that can get me the most benefit without having to blow my budget.

Lightening things by removal kind of goes against selling cars in two years, you don't get the same value for the car by hacking it. That's when I have to come up with the perfect balance. Buying lighter components will also add cost that don't equate to much, so buying lightweight parts is probably not the right way to go.

Out of all the things you mentioned, the slicks are already #1 on my list. I am used to running the semi slicks because I never had a car that can quite carry 4 tires, the RX-8 is big enough for me to do that. The 265/35/18 I have came off my last car, so it didn't really cost me anything. Of course I found out they are probably not the optimum choice as far as size or compounds. Also it was a hopeless feeling to see the other RX-8 being able to grip and drive off the corners quite a bit better than me.

I completely agree with you that I can definitely change my driving style to fit this car better. I am used to cars with power, so revving the piss out of the car corner after corner is not something I am used to. I already see a lot of that in my datalogs. Of course I do have to mention that the relatively soft suspension on the RX-8 doesn't exactly give you high confidence through some corners. (NASCAR bend at VIR for example). Still, I am no spring chicken in the game of track driving. There is no three seconds in this car in its current form.

Yes it's a 6 spd car. When I bought the RX-8, I knew my chances of FTD are long gone. Yet I didn't expect the car to be so much slower than the top pack. By no means is the car slow, it's just slower than the top pack and what I was hoping for. I honestly was expecting 2 seconds slower in a 1.5 miles course, I never thought the difference would be 4!!!!

I guess the only good thing is that I paid half as much as what I did for my other cars.

You'll never be able to make up the HP deficit vs. others with inexpensive mods like ECU, there's just very little power to be gained and a good chance of denonating/overheating your engine on track if you try.

Things to possibly improve times (except FI) are 'good' r-comps tires, lightening everything possible (interior, rotors, calipers, wheels, accessories), and sorting out the suspension to your particular liking (sways, strut bars, coilovers, body braces).

Then there is your driving style and track line, that while it may have fit your previous car's profiles and lead to success in times attained, may not work w/momentum cars like the 8. Habits on track can be hard to break, work on them, study what winning drivers do, plan and experiment, use your track data and revise thru feedback. Seconds can be found, but they are hard earned, and not just done with your right foot, because there's so little there.

When properly setup and executed on track (concerning both your car and your state of mind), I find there is a point that you can attain levels of speed and cornering that really are quite good and certainly rewarding.

BTW we are talking a 6sp car here yes?

Still doesn't mean you'll beat all other CARS at the track, but it does mean many other DRIVERS will stop by wondering how your underpowered car and you can do what you do and pass many of them. The 8 is not a brute force track demon you need to finesse it a lot, as you are likely finding out.

Midpipe/remove the exhaust, gut it out completely, 255 tires lightweight wheels, race seats, f/r strut bars, sway bars, JIC rear traction bars/control arms, coilovers-kw variant, ohlins. You should be able to keep up for sure,

I know it is three + seconds because I owned and drove both cars with same brakes and similar tires. The acceleration difference is pretty much what I showed you, the Z also feels less scary through the steady state turns as it has stiffer suspension. The RX-8 feels a lot nicer in the transition though.

I would like to keep the car emission legal, so have to pass on the midpipe. My car is 3200lbs (vs 3440lbs on my Z)exactly with full tank and me at the track. I have heard exhaust on the RX-8 really doesn't equate to much, so I don't know if it is worth while. The RX-8 I met at the track did seem to have more power down the straight, but then it could just be because he came off the corner faster. I think all he had was a muffler.


Bill's car has a B&B muffler, HP+ pads on the front, Konis and he may have done the Mazmart water pump before your event. I think that's it. His is also a base model, so it may be a little lighter. I think he got the exhaust for jollies because it was cheap. I've ridden with him at VIR before & after the Koni's & they eliminated some understeer he had - I think you alluded to the same in another thread. It would make sense to do springs at the same time since the car rolls a lot, but keep the drop under an inch. You might PM him - wankelbolt - since he hasn't chimed in here.

Bill's car has a B&B muffler, HP+ pads on the front, Konis and he may have done the Mazmart water pump before your event. I think that's it. His is also a base model, so it may be a little lighter. I think he got the exhaust for jollies because it was cheap. I've ridden with him at VIR before & after the Koni's & they eliminated some understeer he had - I think you alluded to the same in another thread. It would make sense to do springs at the same time since the car rolls a lot, but keep the drop under an inch. You might PM him - wankelbolt - since he hasn't chimed in here.

He was the guy that was about a sec to 1.5 sec in front of me at VIR. It was a combination of driver, tires and maybe the mods. He mentioned the fact that his car was noticeably quicker down the straights. I wasn't sure if it was the power or the fact he can come off the corner faster than me. I have checked my car against others, it doesn't seem like my car is making any less power than other stock RX-8s. When I was behind him, I noticed he can clearly put the power down faster off the turns and his car seem to have less lean than mine. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what it is, but it is certainly a combination of driver/tires/mods. I honestly don't think the muffler did all that much, but the shocks definitely looked helpful. Driving on the street, the car doesn't feel like it need shocks/springs, but they sure do look helpful on the track.

I have the video running with him somewhere on a memory card, I just gotta find it.

The R888s will fall off before they are completely worn out, unlike the RA-1s. Is it possible your tires are shot?

Also, my '04 makes 210 Hp to the ground (Mustang dyno), and weighs 2850. If I'm not mistaken, that makes it fairly competitive with a stock S2000, in terms of power/weight ratio.

This required a custom mid-pipe (with a high-flow cat), a Corksport cat-back, a K&N drop-in filter, an underdrive pulley (which probably contributed nothing) and a custom dyno tune using a Cobb AP.

[edit] None of what I describe above is cheap, so perhaps it wasn't appropriate to post in this thread. But it can be done.

Well... other than what others suggested.......

The best bet for a few hundred bucks is the Access Port from MM.

You will get 20 more ponies to the rear.

Pads
Fluid
Sways
Tires
AP
Practice

Well, what I said earlier would def put him close to a 350z if not in front of it with no problem for certain tracks. That Cobb AP is not cheap neither. Maybe he should save in that case.

Oh yea, he mentioned that he did not want to spend too much money, what is not spending too much money or how much money can he spend?

The R888s will fall off before they are completely worn out, unlike the RA-1s. Is it possible your tires are shot?

Also, my '04 makes 210 Hp to the ground (Mustang dyno), and weighs 2850. If I'm not mistaken, that makes it fairly competitive with a stock S2000, in terms of power/weight ratio.

This required a custom mid-pipe (with a high-flow cat), a Corksport cat-back, a K&N drop-in filter, an underdrive pulley (which probably contributed nothing) and a custom dyno tune using a Cobb AP.

[edit] None of what I describe above is cheap, so perhaps it wasn't appropriate to post in this thread. But it can be done.

You are right about how my R888s are crap (I corded the rears). I am never getting those tires again. Unlike the RA1s, the R888 simply doesn't like life. I actually accelerated the wear on these tires by downshifting into 2nd (net result was like a .2 sec in times...) Honestly, even if these R888 are new, I still think the difference would be a second max. That would still put me in a spot where I will be racing with BMW sedans/Hondas rather than the big boys. It is what it is, I will start by getting a set of R1s. I actually have a thought about tires/wheels. I am currently using another set of stock wheels, but I am seriously thinking about dropping down to a 17x8 and run a 235/40 tire instead (as opposed to 245). That would give me the benefit of the lower gearing and save me a shift to 2nd in tight corners. After that, it would seem to make sense to buy a set of coil-overs. I am trying to stay away from the sway bar as it seems to be a temporary fix. Lastly, something needs to be done with the power. The lower gearing would help me slightly, also the less friction from the 235 would be benefical. I know it might sound strange that I want to go with a narrower tire, but I really don't think the RX-8 has enough power to use 265 unless you use a lot of 2nd gear. This is something I am still debating about, I will decide when time comes closer. As far as power goes, I would be curious to see if sometihng like the RB tune would help. I would prefer to stay away from obvious mods like intake and exhaust since my car is still under warranty. Also it seems to me the intake and exhaust are not a great way to get good bang for your buck (<8bhp for $1000). If that is the case, perhaps something like the RB flash might just do the job. They claim 8HP, but since I have stock everything, maybe it will do a few more HP across the powerband. If I can get 4HP across the entire powerband, I would gladly pay the $300.

I can afford to buy parts, I just don't want to go crazy on it because the whole purpose of this car is to save a little money before a car I like comes out again.

If your car is truly putting out 210 at the wheels, then yes the car is competitive against a car like S2000, but I really don't think a stock RX-8 puts more than 185HP to the ground.

By all means, get the 17s. I have a set and you can feel the difference in acceleration.

Yes, a stock RX-8 puts down 175-185. Mine did 180 on a dynojet with just the catback & K&N filter. The midpipe & cobb tune added power & torque across the entire band, getting me to 210. And, I still have not reached 220, which seems to be the upper limit without going forced induction or taking the motor apart.

The 245/40/17 on the R1 is teh same diameter as the 235/40/17, the overall diameter is 1.6" smaller, so I think that's what i will be using next year

Here's the the thing on the Access Port from MM..

You can uninstall it in two years and sell it to a club member in your area.

Tune has to be uninstalled and returned back to stock in order for you to resell it.

So the cost is more practical now.

I know it might sound strange that I want to go with a narrower tire, but I really don't think the RX-8 has enough power to use 265 unless you use a lot of 2nd gear. This is something I am still debating about,

I compared notes with my 350z driving nemesis (I'm 1.5 sec slower on a 1:30 lap time), he basically goes 3rd and 4th gear around the track, and i'm between 2nd and 3rd, the car has very little torque, you gotta rev it :)

I just started autoxing, and when I did the beginner driver training school stuff, the instructer asked to drive my car, and I rode. He was a good 4-5 seconds faster than my time and I drive an Auto.

you need some hawk blue, slick, shocks & springs.
also a sticker that said: "drive it like you stole it" or "balls out competition"

I just started autoxing, and when I did the beginner driver training school stuff, the instructer asked to drive my car, and I rode. He was a good 4-5 seconds faster than my time and I drive an Auto.

I = fail. I just read the title again and then what a complete idiot I was for posting autox related stuff. quazmosis what a faggot.

you need some hawk blue, slick, shocks & springs.
also a sticker that said: "drive it like you stole it" or "balls out competition"

I like this guy...

Keep it simple stupid :lol2:

I maybe the first to say this, but maybe you bought the wrong car? You can "budget" build and still have fun (17" wheels, slicks, pads) but when you add all the other crap that people are saying (sways, coilovers, midpipe and flash) you are removing yourself from the "budget" part of your build.

Since you are trying to stay competitive within your class maybe you should have purchased an obvious competitive/popular car within the class instead of the under dog?

I hope everything works at for ya.

Yes and no to your comment. When I got into the car, I knew I was going to have an uphill battle. I didn't know I would have to climb Mt. Kilomanjiro. The car is honestly slower than I expected with my usual setup (Stock except brakes+Toyo tires). The reason why I am not hating myself is because there are not many cars within the price range that can give me the same performance with the same package (stock except for pads and Toyo tires). If you think about it, cars in its class are probably cars like the STI, EVO, Z, Solstice Turbo, S2000, M3, C4. With the exception of the S2000 and the E36 M3 and the C4, you are not going to find many cars under 15K that can do what I am doing stock. If I pay $30K for my vehicle, then yes I would have more problems. Since I paid half of that, I can at least live with it. I am just a little pissed that the car can't really go much faster without doing work, oh well.

The other poster is probably right that I am probably not using all of the car yet, but at the same time I know I am not far from it in its current state. You can only ask a donkey to do so much.

I maybe the first to say this, but maybe you bought the wrong car? You can "budget" build and still have fun (17" wheels, slicks, pads) but when you add all the other crap that people are saying (sways, coilovers, midpipe and flash) you are removing yourself from the "budget" part of your build.

Since you are trying to stay competitive within your class maybe you should have purchased an obvious competitive/popular car within the class instead of the under dog?

.....

beers :beer:

swoope, love ya man... but i dont even try and read your posts anymore. it's so painstaking to make heads or tails of what you're trying to convey that it is simply not worth it:tear: this is about what i can catch from most posts these days:

faster? hmm, found some once. smelled cold. try backwards.

(btw that post above is one of the better ones i've seen as of late :) )

/threadjack

It's not hard to pass an incompetent driver in a fast car, but it's a different story to pass a good driver in a fast car (not even a great driver). You can't change the rule of physics, the car can only go so fast. In this instance, it is not making up four seconds over a minute and a half. It goes back to the more you spend, the faster you go. In my instance, I want to see what is the cheapest way to go faster....(I had excluded tires) because I had accounted for that as a fixed cost to tracking cars.

adapt to a car that does not have hp to rely on.. the rules change!

i recall our debates from years ago.. ;) :)

i am still learning, but have rode along with a couple of talented people in a couple of varying mods of rx8..

from stock with street tires to sc with coilovers on r compounds. the talent of the driver made it work, and fast..

on a budget. one of the best rides i had, with a really talented driver.

the specs. racing beat springs. racing beat front sway, bilstien hd shocks. dont recall the tire, but it was a r compound. likely a toyo..

you would be surprised as to the twice the hp cars that he got the wave by and we never saw again.

beers :beer:

The driver and car swoope is speaking of the tires he was running were Hankook Z214's in 225/45-17. Believe me he can pass a good driver in a fast car. Have an experienced instructor ride with you, maybe a Miata guy who is well versed in getting the most out of momentum cars. Having someone in the right seat no matter what level you are at is always beneficial. I try to have as many people as possible ride with me, lucky for me I have 6 or 7 friends who drive or have driven RX-8's and are instructors. I've had lots of "ah ha" moments with them in the right seat adjusting my braking zones or having me try a different line. We are always going to be the limiting factors in our cars and there will always be someone faster who can show us a thing or two.

I am not questioning about the driver, I am sure he is great. The fact is that no matter how good or fast he is, he is not passing faster cars with good drivers. It's just the law of physics. A lot of people think passing cars is a great way to see how well you are doing, but it really doesn't tell you the story like laptimes.

Let's use this video as an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7UD5F71Ry4 This car flew by me and was running about 1-2 sec faster than me per lap. Should he be proud given the fact he was on 305/335 Hoosier slicks and I was on 245/285 Toyos. I forgot to mention the suspension and the extra 150rwhp.

/\lol. Maybe you both suck?
just kidding of course. Looks like you have him on corners and your line looks much better.

/\lol. Maybe you both suck?
just kidding of course. Looks like you have him on corners and your line looks much better.

It could be, but I know the RX-8 was going about 10 sec slower than the C6 with the same "sucky" driver. The amazing thing about that video was that I was going nearly 140mph when the Z06 blew by me. As I said before, I am not expect the RX-8 to be anywhere as fast as those guys. I just thought the gap would be a lot smaller

It could be, but I know the RX-8 was going about 10 sec slower than the C6 with the same "sucky" driver. The amazing thing about that video was that I was going nearly 140mph when the Z06 blew by me. As I said before, I am not expect the RX-8 to be anywhere as fast as those guys. I just thought the gap would be a lot smaller


Tires, tires, tires.

Your comparison isn't valid until you put some fresh, properly selected tires on your car. By running worn-out R888s, you have taken the single most important component of a momentum-based car and killed it. It's like tracking a Mustang with four malfunctioning spark plugs.

George,

All three cars I collected data on were on toyos, stock, driver/owner and same brake pads. Its as close as a valid comparison in a non racing environment. I also have data from other cars, but they do not have the same tires or owner or driver. I do have to admit the z had the best grip, followed by the rx8 and then vette.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

Mr. Tmak,

I applaud you for seeking answers to your questions. Keep seeking and you will find the answer to your situation.

Here is my .04

In no particular order:

-Casual open track drivers coming from higher hp cars (V-8's as an example) typically find it un-rewarding when they move to a momentum based, lower power car.
-Those drivers (and I'm not pointing at you----I'm generalizing here), those drivers that aren't very good cover their mistakes with a capable car. I've instructed hundreds of students both new and experienced in slow, medium and fast cars. Those in the faster cars go faster regardless of thier skill sets. Those in the slower cars go slow or fast dependant on thier skill sets. In otherwords, a poorly skilled driver can make a new Z06 fly at VIR. Not true for the RX8 at VIR. You will need both a skilled driver and car mods to extract the cars performance.

The RX8 won't run faster than a 2:11-2:12 at VIR full with an n.a. motor and every suspension mod you can think of. You'll need to be a very, very, very skilled driver to get there. This is essentially what a skilled driver in a Koni Challenge sports car could run if he/she is really fast. You will need to run in a unlimited passing run group as the RX8 will have to take advantage of it's strengths (handling and brakes) to get ahead of the cars that are faster in the straights. "Follow the leader" events with limited passing don't favor the RX8. Courses with long straights don't favor the RX8.

The big gains are in the suspension. Huge gains. Monster gains. They will also require your car to be trailered as you can't/won't want to drive it to the from the track.

I would bet a 6 pack of beer that you are waaay overslowing prior to corner entry which makes it even harder on this 1.3L little guy engine to regain lost momentum. Spec Miata drivers know this which is why (on the record) that people who start learning with momentum cars generally CRUSH those guys that learn on V-8's. See it all the time. It takes talent to drive a momentum car. Moving from a V-8 (or high hp) car to a momentum car can be very frustrating. More often than not (and most likely in your case) the opportunity is in your driving style as most drivers making a transition from high hp to momentum often say (there is NO POWER there). True and not true. Most of these drivers don't learn to adapt their driving style. This is your challenge. Done correctly a modified RX8 can be very rewarding. However if you need the seat of the pants V8 high speed fix, this car isn't for you.

Since you're looking for data, may I suggest you consider some form of data acquistion that will point out your opportunity. Done correctly with a professional driver or a skilled race data acquisition engineer, you will see the data that will reveal your driving style. This may not be an option for you.

Your in a tough spot my friend as its going to take a while to learn this skill and THEN figure out if you enjoy this momentum style of driving (or not).

You have a couple of options from where I sit:

(a) Keep the car and sink a ton of money in hodge-podge modifications that almost always mask the real issue (the driver's skill set). Then figure out you like or don't like it.
(b) Go buy a used C5 Z06, put gas and brakes in it. Drive it to and from the track, park it in the garage and forget about it.
(c) Buy a Spec Miata which already has all the suspension mods it needs (about $9-13K) and learn how to momentum drive.
(d) Invest in driver coaching to help you confirm that you are extracting the majority of time out of your car.

The easy fix is a C5 Z. Cheap. Proven. Easy to drive.

The Mazda is a driver's car, requires a "momentum" style driving skill set and car suspension mods.

Hope this helps.

Happy rotoring

Eric, I agree with you completely. I've been driving a Miata on the track for the last 6-7 years and I've improved my driving a lot. The biggest gains came from having someone faster drive my car, or even doing a lead-follow with a quicker SM. In the Miata, it's all about braking as little as possible, getting back on the throttle quickly and feathering the car around the corner.

^^^ same with my AT.

I agree on a lot of things you said, but I respectfully disagree on some.

In order of your response

#1 I agree, but personally, I don't care as long as the car puts down a respectable time. Of course I have to like the car too.

#2 Once again, I agree up to a certain point. You are always going to have hacks driving slow or fast cars. I have passed faster cars and been passed by slower cars. You do have to remember each car has its limit, a good driver can only make up so much. This is why I compare all the cars I owned as I have tried hard to limit my variables. This is as close as I could get to real data since there aren't many real datas I can compare to. I found it laughable when people think they have a faster car than what they really have. When my friends make fun of slow times, I can at least say I am paying half of what you are paying. That's my trade off for trying to save for a wedding and owning multiple houses.

#2b Koni ST cars make 270HP or so, I don't think a stock RX-8 make anywhere close to that. I am one of the guys who believes the RX-8 makes 210-220bhp. There is no way you can compare a stock RX-8 to a race car. It's like saying the average ST cars run 59 sec on Hoosiers at Lime Rock Park. I did 1:02 in my stock 350z on Toyos. Does that make the Z bad? I don't think it is fair to compare them since there are so many things that are different.

#3 I agree about suspension. Stock suspension is very soft. As I stated in previous posts, the high amount of roll makes it hard for me to go hard into certain corners. (hence some corners I am faster and slower than my old cars) I have coil-overs as #2 on my list if I ever choose to modify the car. The suspension on the RX-8 is softer than my Z51 Corvette, so it's not exactly the track special. This partially explains why the car went slower in SOME corners compare to the Z.

#4 You are absolutely right about the braking and corner entry comment. This is why I wouldn't be surprise if I am leaving a little time off the table. How do I know? I have datalogs who can confirm that in certain corners. At the same time, I doubt I am leaving a lot of time because the corner entry speeds are still respectable (If anything, I have problem with the apex speed). I also notice I keep going back to my old braking points rather than finding new deeper ones since I am carrying a lot less speed. I need the reset button in my head.

#5 I own a cheap datalogger and I am constantly looking for good data to collect. Unlike a lot of people, I look at myself based on what the data is giving me. It really doesn't matter to me if I pass a Corvette or a Miata. I am one of those who prefers to set myself up for two clean laps per session rather than 10 laps in and out of traffic. If I feel the car gets tired, I back off to cool the car and set myself up for the next lap.

I just want to add that driving a high HP car FAST is not much different than a momentum car. You still have to carry as much speed as possible to get the best available times. If it is that easy to drive, you wouldn't see bunch of people crashing them! Trust me, going from 130mph down to a 90 mph turn and taking a car from 100mph down to 90mph is different, but similar in that it can still take a lot of balls and skills to do.

This is not easy to drive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9sx-rkx5UM



-Casual open track drivers coming from higher hp cars (V-8's as an example) typically find it un-rewarding when they move to a momentum based, lower power car.
-Those drivers (and I'm not pointing at you----I'm generalizing here), those drivers that aren't very good cover their mistakes with a capable car. I've instructed hundreds of students both new and experienced in slow, medium and fast cars. Those in the faster cars go faster regardless of thier skill sets. Those in the slower cars go slow or fast dependant on thier skill sets. In otherwords, a poorly skilled driver can make a new Z06 fly at VIR. Not true for the RX8 at VIR. You will need both a skilled driver and car mods to extract the cars performance.

The RX8 won't run faster than a 2:11-2:12 at VIR full with an n.a. motor and every suspension mod you can think of. You'll need to be a very, very, very skilled driver to get there. This is essentially what a skilled driver in a Koni Challenge sports car could run if he/she is really fast. You will need to run in a unlimited passing run group as the RX8 will have to take advantage of it's strengths (handling and brakes) to get ahead of the cars that are faster in the straights. "Follow the leader" events with limited passing don't favor the RX8. Courses with long straights don't favor the RX8.

The big gains are in the suspension. Huge gains. Monster gains. They will also require your car to be trailered as you can't/won't want to drive it to the from the track.

I would bet a 6 pack of beer that you are waaay overslowing prior to corner entry which makes it even harder on this 1.3L little guy engine to regain lost momentum. Spec Miata drivers know this which is why (on the record) that people who start learning with momentum cars generally CRUSH those guys that learn on V-8's. See it all the time. It takes talent to drive a momentum car. Moving from a V-8 (or high hp) car to a momentum car can be very frustrating. More often than not (and most likely in your case) the opportunity is in your driving style as most drivers making a transition from high hp to momentum often say (there is NO POWER there). True and not true. Most of these drivers don't learn to adapt their driving style. This is your challenge. Done correctly a modified RX8 can be very rewarding. However if you need the seat of the pants V8 high speed fix, this car isn't for you.

Since you're looking for data, may I suggest you consider some form of data acquistion that will point out your opportunity. Done correctly with a professional driver or a skilled race data acquisition engineer, you will see the data that will reveal your driving style. This may not be an option for you.

Your in a tough spot my friend as its going to take a while to learn this skill and THEN figure out if you enjoy this momentum style of driving (or not).

You have a couple of options from where I sit:

(a) Keep the car and sink a ton of money in hodge-podge modifications that almost always mask the real issue (the driver's skill set). Then figure out you like or don't like it.
(b) Go buy a used C5 Z06, put gas and brakes in it. Drive it to and from the track, park it in the garage and forget about it.
(c) Buy a Spec Miata which already has all the suspension mods it needs (about $9-13K) and learn how to momentum drive.
(d) Invest in driver coaching to help you confirm that you are extracting the majority of time out of your car.

The easy fix is a C5 Z. Cheap. Proven. Easy to drive.

The Mazda is a driver's car, requires a "momentum" style driving skill set and car suspension mods.

Hope this helps.

Happy rotoring

Tmak,

Please let me introduce myself. My name is Eric Meyer and I'm here to help. I am no longer aware of what topic we are addressing in this post. I THOUGHT it was "I have a relatively slower car and what do I need to do with it to make it faster" (these are my words, not yours).

Don't get defensive please. I can back up my words with data.
-Koni Challenge RX8's have approx 215 hp
-I have driven and raced VIR more than 99% of the people on this board. In the rain, snow and even raced in the dark at the 13 hour.
-I own/have owned 3 RX8 race prep cars and am building a 4th.
-My last car has over $30K of data acquisition labor and effort
-One of my most personally rewarding efforts is to help drivers who want to improve. Instructing a student who is open minded and wants to advance is a wonderful experience.

If you like, send me your data and video and I can help. If not, that's OK too.

Don't get defensive but I can tell you there is more opportunity in your driving and car and I can show you (with your data) how to go get it. Now for the point I want to make-----this car is NOT like driving a big V8 car when braking and cornering. Don't argue with it. This is the opportunity to drive differently and go faster. If you're open and would like to learn more. Give me a shout.

Eric

meyermotorsports@mac.com

UPDATE:

My good buddy Tom Long just sent me this video. Tom won the season finale' Grand-Am Koni Sports Car Challenge race at VIR. The fast MX-5 is similar in driving to the RX8 however it has a bit more power and we have a bit better handling and brakes. The big difference is the driver and Tom Long is one of THE best. He's 28 years old and has been my driver coach and friend for the past few years. Enjoy the racing action but more importantly listen the throttle application and when he goes to full power. Also notice his braking points. I believe this car was running low 2:10 lap times---just off the Koni track record for ST which is a 2:09 and change. I think my best there in the fastest RX8 that I could find is a low 2:11.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Pr2d84jhU

Well I don't post much as I tend to rather listen and learn rather than run my mouth as if I know everything. If Tmak doesn't want to learn anything from that video I most definately did!! Aside from the great racing action and gutsy passes (to say the least) it was interesting to hear how much time he spends on the throttle and how little time he spends on the brakes.

Thanks for the post Eric!

UPDATE:

My good buddy Tom Long just sent me this video. Tom won the season finale' Grand-Am Koni Sports Car Challenge race at VIR. The fast MX-5 is similar in driving to the RX8 however it has a bit more power and we have a bit better handling and brakes. The big difference is the driver and Tom Long is one of THE best. He's 28 years old and has been my driver coach and friend for the past few years. Enjoy the racing action but more importantly listen the throttle application and when he goes to full power. Also notice his braking points. I believe this car was running low 2:10 lap times---just off the Koni track record for ST which is a 2:09 and change. I think my best there in the fastest RX8 that I could find is a low 2:11.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Pr2d84jhU

that was scary to watch.....

I am on a cell phone, can't view till I am home.

As I said, I agree with a lot of things you said, at the same time I also disagree on some. If you have data on a stock car, please post them or pm me with it. Compare race carrs to street cars are not exactly fair. Its hard to learn, especially oover the internet, without datalogs or videos with equal car. the closest thing I have is another stock car, but its still hard to learn when there is an difference

this is not about me getting defensive, I just found some things that I don't think is right.

st cars make 218 at the wheels or engine? I am not familiar with them. if it is wheels, my original statement of 260 270 seems fairr

Tmak,

Please let me introduce myself. My name is Eric Meyer and I'm here to help. I am no longer aware of what topic we are addressing in this post. I THOUGHT it was "I have a relatively slower car and what do I need to do with it to make it faster" (these are my words, not yours).

Don't get defensive please. I can back up my words with data.
-Koni Challenge RX8's have approx 215 hp
-I have driven and raced VIR more than 99% of the people on this board. In the rain, snow and even raced in the dark at the 13 hour.
-I own/have owned 3 RX8 race prep cars and am building a 4th.
-My last car has over $30K of data acquisition labor and effort
-One of my most personally rewarding efforts is to help drivers who want to improve. Instructing a student who is open minded and wants to advance is a wonderful experience.

If you like, send me your data and video and I can help. If not, that's OK too.

Don't get defensive but I can tell you there is more opportunity in your driving and car and I can show you (with your data) how to go get it. Now for the point I want to make-----this car is NOT like driving a big V8 car when braking and cornering. Don't argue with it. This is the opportunity to drive differently and go faster. If you're open and would like to learn more. Give me a shout.

Eric

meyermotorsports@mac.com

Thanks for posting that video Eric. Long's driving is stellar!!!!

Eric awesome explanation and video... I look forward to some of your advice in person at the track... as for you tmak you should really learn to listen to people with experience. A wise person once told me "a driver who is willing to listen to their instructor and try the things they suggest will ultimately learn more and become a better driver then the person who doesn't".

There are many people in this thread that are true track addicts and professional drivers that have tons of experience with this specific car in the stock and modified versions. So in my eyes you have two choices:

1. Be a sponge and learn from them and take in their experiences, successes, and pitfalls with this car.
2. Be so stubborn that you never end up reaching some of the potential of the vehicle and ultimately end up selling it.

Hint: it’s better to be a sponge in this situation....

I am all ears, I am just looking for something that I either looked over and don't know about. At the same time, I still haven't seen any concrete evidence to disprove some of my believes. If you have it, I am all ears. I still have not seen time trial results, datalogs to disprove some of my theories. I know it is hard because every car and driver are different, that's why it might not even be a good comparison to begin with. I am just looking for ideas, someone backed up my theory of the 17s setup, soft suspension setup, basically things like that. This is not about the driver, simply about the car. if the driver is the only problem, trust me I wouldn't be stupid enough to ask people to teach me how to drive on the internet. I choose not to list my experience because I don't want to sound cocky. As I said before, I am no expert and I don't claim to be. At the same time, I am no spring chicken.

Eric awesome explanation and video... I look forward to some of your advice in person at the track... as for you tmak you should really learn to listen to people with experience. A wise person once told me "a driver who is willing to listen to their instructor and try the things they suggest will ultimately learn more and become a better driver then the person who doesn't".

There are many people in this thread that are true track addicts and professional drivers that have tons of experience with this specific car in the stock and modified versions. So in my eyes you have two choices:

1. Be a sponge and learn from them and take in their experiences, successes, and pitfalls with this car.
2. Be so stubborn that you never end up reaching some of the potential of the vehicle and ultimately end up selling it.

Hint: it’s better to be a sponge in this situation....

I am all ears, I am just looking for something that I either looked over and don't know about. At the same time, I still haven't seen any concrete evidence to disprove some of my believes. If you have it, I am all ears. I still have not seen time trial results, datalogs to disprove some of my theories. I know it is hard because every car and driver are different, that's why it might not even be a good comparison to begin with. I am just looking for ideas, someone backed up my theory of the 17s setup, soft suspension setup, basically things like that. This is not about the driver, simply about the car. if the driver is the only problem, trust me I wouldn't be stupid enough to ask people to teach me how to drive on the internet. I choose not to list my experience because I don't want to sound cocky. As I said before, I am no expert and I don't claim to be. At the same time, I am no spring chicken.

Could you try that again in english someone can comprehend tmak? Don't take this as hostile please, it's merely stating the obvious, but really....

You expect to be taken seriously on this board (I assume), but you're not willing to tell us anything almost anything (except you're not a spring chicken as well as being a non-expert) about yourself or experience so we can at least get a clue where you're coming from and how to address a specific issue with you.

You tell us you aren't getting "something you have (sic) looked over" (overlooked?), but you still need evidence to disprove "some of (sic) my believes?" (beliefs?) and "some of my theories"?

Can you please list some of these? It would be easier to discuss them if there was a list of your beliefs and theories.

Then you say "I am just looking for ideas"? There have been many, many idea give here, backed up by both experience and fact. There are really few ideas left you haven't heard already. Depending on what you know (sorry you won't tell us what you know) all you need do now is assemble the respective parts needed and apply them to your car. It's not really rocket science. Then experience the results for yourself being the ???? driver you are! Then you can tell us the answers...well you can tell someone the answers. We are the ones with the answers you are looking for, even if you don't accept that, so we don't really need the answers so much.

Perhaps you need someone to help you pick out the parts, or install them? Is that's what missing for you? I'm unclear on what you need from us here?

I am typing on a phone with a sticky keyboard, sorry for not proof read my posts.

As I stated in my original post, I am looking for something that can make the car faster without major modification. I gave an example like control arm on the z or exhaust in an evo. I listed specifically that tires are not included because I am getting new and better ones. Yet with the exception of a couple posts (soft oem suspension/17s), most were just about driving or other unrelated things. I had listed my datalogs, videos and lap times. If you can show me where the driver lost four seconds in time, please feel free to show me. I am using four (sb in the 3s once I get used to the car) seconds because I was four seconds faster in my old car on same tires, yet some people think the rx8s should be faster because they passed a z in their track days. If you could find something to show that I am wrong, please show me. And my z was the lap record holder in class forr 3 years until it was beaten this year, so I either got lucky or my field sucked..

I do have a racing and tt license, but then its not important because you can basically buy them. If you find cars running faster times with similar equipment, let me know as I am more interested in that than credentials. I want to see where he is going faster. I don't have an ego regarding my driving. I lost them all after attending a few national events, I feel comfortable enough as to knowing where I am as an amateur driver.-

Could you try that again in english someone can comprehend tmak? Don't take this as hostile please, it's merely stating the obvious, but really....

You expect to be taken seriously on this board (I assume), but you're not willing to tell us anything almost anything (except you're not a spring chicken as well as being a non-expert) about yourself or experience so we can at least get a clue where you're coming from and how to address a specific issue with you.

You tell us you aren't getting "something you have (sic) looked over" (overlooked?), but you still need evidence to disprove "some of (sic) my believes?" (beliefs?) and "some of my theories"?

Can you please list some of these? It would be easier to discuss them if there was a list of your beliefs and theories.

Then you say "I am just looking for ideas"? There have been many, many idea give here, backed up by both experience and fact. There are really few ideas left you haven't heard already. Depending on what you know (sorry you won't tell us what you know) all you need do now is assemble the respective parts needed and apply them to your car. It's not really rocket science. Then experience the results for yourself being the ???? driver you are! Then you can tell us the answers...well you can tell someone the answers. We are the ones with the answers you are looking for, even if you don't accept that, so we don't really need the answers so much.

Perhaps you need someone to help you pick out the parts, or install them? Is that's what missing for you? I'm unclear on what you need from us here?

As I stated in my original post, I am looking for something that can make the car faster without major modification. I gave an example like control arm on the z or exhaust in an evo.

Ok, that's a start, although you were again talking about the driver a lot there, where you said a post or so ago this was simply about the car, not the driver. And what is major to you? Is is a cost ceiling, or install difficulty...what exactly? BTW no one changes their control arms in an 8 and an exhaust does about nothing, for example.

There is no small mod that will change the power output of the engine significantly. So as the engine is off the list I can answer your original post question easily. Nothing will make the car significantly 'faster' down a straight, while there are some changes that will make the car handle better around corners. I don't know if 'handle better' equates to 'faster' in your mind.

The 'handle better' part is really where the driver makes the difference. Better driving can make a particular car faster.

Do you want us to critique your driving style? Just because you can drive car A well & fast, it doesn't automatically follow that you can drive B well & fast. So even you driving the different cars you offer up isn't really proof of lap time superiority.

Perhaps you can post some more vids of the car driving you did in both? Maybe once driving yoiur Z and one with your 8. That would help a little, but it would still be hard unless someone rode with you. What do your instructors say? I assume you still get occasional instruction just to brush up every now and then and esp. if you want to go faster in an unfamilar car like your RX-8

But then again that the driver not the car. Simple answer, nothing will make the car accelerate faster that's not major!

I was simply replying to some of the responses I had gotten. Go back to the first few posts, I never talked about the driver with the exception of admitting myself leaving a tiny bit of time off the table.

I know those mods are not big gainers for the RX-8, I had just listed them as an example of what other cars can offer. I am looking for something that will give me the best bang for the buck, excluding driver/tires/brakes while maintaining a street friendly car.

I don't agree with everything you say, but there are a lot of points I agree with you on. For example, "handle/feel better" doesn't mean it is faster. I do think the RX-8 can benefit a lot by having a stiffer suspension. I truly believe in that because I see a weird pattern in cornering speed between the three cars I had and drove. http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7105/vir3carcompare.pdf I want to remove myself as a variable (for comparison sake) because most of my laps reveal the same pattern where I am faster in the RX-8 on some corners and slower on some. In the corners where the RX-8 was slower, I found that those were the corners that I had massive amount of lean and I never felt comfortable going through it. I think most would agree that coil-overs are probably the best cure for this, but then it is a $2000 part. Is that $2000 going to get me one sec, two sec or three secs? That's what I want to find out! I look at it this way, handling is subjective while lap times are objective. I want to have an objective answer! By the way, it is way easier to lap the RX-8 consistently than the C6 or the 350z. More power, more room for error.

As for engine power, I had a theory that the RX-8 can benefit by a shorter gear ratio. You can do that cheaply by doing a 245/17 setup, I think someone else backed me on this. Does a flash work? That's a $400 question, but there aren't seem to be many cars on the track with a flashed ECU.

I have an in car camera that shows nothing more than the cars in front of me, so not sure how it is helpful. Start the video @ the 3:15 mark, http://www.vimeo.com/6940191 Car in front had the same car as me with the exception of a set of BFG R1s and a muffler. He was definitely quicker as a driver, but the R1 looked pretty helpful going up the hill and on the off camber corners where I spun one rear tire on my R888. You can see I was a lot slower in the back section on the track, I gained the distance back at the front section of the track. Start this at the one minute mark, you will see the difference driving a 400HP car http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9sx-rkx5UM .

All my times are listed, do a search on lap times for 100% stock cars and see how I compare.

Ok, that's a start, although you were again talking about the driver a lot there, where you said a post or so ago this was simply about the car, not the driver. And what is major to you? Is is a cost ceiling, or install difficulty...what exactly? BTW no one changes their control arms in an 8 and an exhaust does about nothing, for example.

There is no mod that will change the power output of the engine significantly. So as the engine is off the list I can answer your original post question easily. Nothing will make the car significantly 'faster' down a straight, while there are some changes that will make the car handle better around corners. I don't know if 'handle better' equates to 'faster' in your mind.

The 'handle better' part is really where the driver makes the difference. Better driving can make a particular car faster.

Do you want us to critique your driving style? Just because you can drive car A well & fast, it doesn't automatically follow that you can drive B well & fast. So even you driving the different cars you offer up isn't really proof of lap time superiority.

Perhaps you can post some more vids of the car driving you did in both? Maybe once driving your Z and one with your 8. That would help a little, but it would still be hard unless someone rode with you. What do your instructors say? I assume you still get occasional instruction just to brush up every now and then and esp. if you want to go faster in an unfamilar car like your RX-8

But then again that the driver not the car. Simple answer, nothing will make the car accelerate faster that's not major!

your vid on vimeo is marked private

As I stated in my original post, I am looking for something that can make the car faster without major modification.

do you have an aggressive alignment on your RX-8? If not, I'd start there and then get some better R Comps (hoosiers or BFG R1).

lay down some ice packs on your intake, you will feel it faster for 10 min lol

your vid on vimeo is marked private

fixed, sorry.

Alignment is reasonable, nothing crazy (the reason why I didn't ask the autox guys). Tires are planned for the next year. I wanted to use up the Toyos I had in the garage, plus it would make a better comparison to my two old cars with the Toyo. I still say the RA1s I had on the 350 felt the grippiest, the R888 on the Corvette were shot. The ones on the RX-8s were worn too.

Sooo, have you decided on how to go about getting faster times. I think last time I post it was basically a big mod list that I pretty much have on my car lol, sorry.

I don't know how much of a budget you are working with but if I had to say anything, it would be sways/tires or coilovers/tires and or sways/strut bar/tires and I think you would chop atleast a sec off with sways/tires IMO.

If you are just going to use the current tires then get either coilovers and or sways/struts and I know for a fact that once you get used to the car again you will easily chop off a sec and be able to hit the corner harder than usual even if that is not your style the upgrades mentioned will let you do it lol.

I don't have a set budget, at the same time, I am not going to spend it just for the hack of it. My tires are shot, so I had to buy new ones anyway. I always exclude tires/pads from my racing budget as they are just part of the track expenses.

Obviously tires/17s will be #1, I had already said that before. My debate was either stick with 18s or get 17s. I am still debating if I should get sway/shocks or just get a complete set of coilovers. I don't see any hard data on how much faster a set of coilovers are. It's basically $2K vs $1K.

I am probably not going to bother with an exhaust, maybe a chip

Other than that, nothing really. I will see how much that improves. I can improve as a driver all I want, but there is nothing more than a second or so there.

Well, I assure you that a set of coilovers will get the job done and with you improving as a driver. Get some Tein Flex or JIC coilovers and you can then approach that turn with more confidence. Coilovers will def help. If you are really ballin get some KW variant's or ohlins coilovers.

I am probably not going to bother with an exhaust, maybe a chip


Chip????

More like midpipe and AP.

Yea, if it were up to me I would just have a midpipe or nothing at all lol.

Chip????

More like midpipe and AP.

I cant go to work smelling like oil

Get a RP Supercat (never thought I'd say that). and the AP.

Dude, no joke, 80% of those posted here have recommended the AP and Midpipe... how are you not getting this? You ask us for advice, and I am begging you to take it. Please (an Rx8club first)
The difference is night and day.
If your running on Worn tires, there is no comparison. You are thinking of your best possible runs in your other cars, and comparing it to what you currently run in the 8. The problem with that is, R888's aren't good, and since yours are worn, it is not a fair mental comparison.

My advice for starter mods from what you described:
Tires on 17's
Swaybars Racing beat makes a good set.

*At this point you should have a better idea on whether or not you want to continue with this car. After the tires you should see the most difference but this would be my stop point if I didn't improve to my liking.*

BHR Ignition
Mazdamaniac Tuned Cobb Access Port
Midpipe OR High Flow Cat
Coilovers

*This is more or less the NA limit. At this point its all driver vs competition. Your car will be great.*

I will no longer be contributing to this thread. Good luck suggesting things guys.

On a completely different note----if any of you would like help driving please feel free to contact me. Would be glad to help. Looks like we're heading to NASA CMP Nov 2009 and NASA Road ATL Dec 2009 to sort out a new car. Stop by and say hey.

Meyer out

When I said chip, I also meant to say ecu tune. So yes, I was debating between flash or the cobbs unit. I am with you on that one.

I had a high flow rp cat before, the difference was less than 3hp. Exhaust in general doesn't add much in the rx8 short of removing the cat, that's why it was never high on my list.

The corvette tires were worse, so I can compare it and get a rough idea. Those were almost the same compounds, none were higher than 100 compound. I wanted to run the rx8 in the same compound to see how it compares.

Trust me I am listening, but I don't see anyone backing their ideas with proof. I am not asking for driving critique, I got plenty of those at the nationals from my co driver.

Get a RP Supercat (never thought I'd say that). and the AP.

Dude, no joke, 80% of those posted here have recommended the AP and Midpipe... how are you not getting this? You ask us for advice, and I am begging you to take it. Please (an Rx8club first)
The difference is night and day.
If your running on Worn tires, there is no comparison. You are thinking of your best possible runs in your other cars, and comparing it to what you currently run in the 8. The problem with that is, R888's aren't good, and since yours are worn, it is not a fair mental comparison.

My advice for starter mods from what you described:
Tires on 17's
Swaybars Racing beat makes a good set.

*At this point you should have a better idea on whether or not you want to continue with this car. After the tires you should see the most difference but this would be my stop point if I didn't improve to my liking.*

BHR Ignition
Mazdamaniac Tuned Cobb Access Port
Midpipe OR High Flow Cat
Coilovers

*This is more or less the NA limit. At this point its all driver vs competition. Your car will be great.*

Get a RP Supercat (never thought I'd say that). and the AP.

Dude, no joke, 80% of those posted here have recommended the AP and Midpipe... how are you not getting this? You ask us for advice, and I am begging you to take it. Please (an Rx8club first)
The difference is night and day.
If your running on Worn tires, there is no comparison. You are thinking of your best possible runs in your other cars, and comparing it to what you currently run in the 8. The problem with that is, R888's aren't good, and since yours are worn, it is not a fair mental comparison.

My advice for starter mods from what you described:
Tires on 17's
Swaybars Racing beat makes a good set.

*At this point you should have a better idea on whether or not you want to continue with this car. After the tires you should see the most difference but this would be my stop point if I didn't improve to my liking.*

BHR Ignition
Mazdamaniac Tuned Cobb Access Port
Midpipe OR High Flow Cat
Coilovers

*This is more or less the NA limit. At this point its all driver vs competition. Your car will be great.*

Maybe this will make some of you feel better, but I had a similar question, "whats the best bang for the buck upgrade on a stock rx-8"
there are limited things I can do before I get kicked out of the stock class.. so based on my own research (and this thread a lot) my mod want list is something like:
sways (should I get stiffer then RB's? I'll deal with ride quality issues :) )
midpipe
AP (doesn't cost me any points)
Ignition, I'm thinking DIY LS2 coil setup (no points here either)
Lightweight wheels (have to stick with 18s)
Two piece brake rotors (lighter then stock, no points here either)

so thank you all for the input, keep it coming please :)

Edit: I already bought a set of kumho XS 245/18s, they improved my laptime from 1:33 to 1:31 compared to the old general tire UHP 225s

Maybe this will make some of you feel better, but I had a similar question, "whats the best bang for the buck upgrade on a stock rx-8"
there are limited things I can do before I get kicked out of the stock class.. so based on my own research (and this thread a lot) my mod want list is something like:
sways (should I get stiffer then RB's? I'll deal with ride quality issues :) )
midpipe
AP (doesn't cost me any points)
Ignition, I'm thinking DIY LS2 coil setup (no points here either)
Lightweight wheels (have to stick with 18s)
Two piece brake rotors (lighter then stock, no points here either)

so thank you all for the input, keep it coming please :)

If you get F&R bars that are too stiff, you might have traction problem coming off slower corners.

Yes I forgot about the coils too, I have to look into it as a winter project. The $500 the shops want with no real pictures and description scares me a little bit.

If you get F&R bars that are too stiff, you might have traction problem coming off slower corners.

Yes I forgot about the coils too, I have to look into it as a winter project. The $500 the shops want with no real pictures and description scares me a little bit.

I was looking at the DIY projects here on the site... it seems to be pretty straight forward, making a nice bracket would be the hardest part for me.. I'd have to look at an actual LS2 coil to see how best to mount them..

good idea for a winter project :)

I was looking at the DIY projects here on the site... it seems to be pretty straight forward, making a nice bracket would be the hardest part for me.. I'd have to look at an actual LS2 coil to see how best to mount them..

good idea for a winter project :)

I didn't see the DIY, but I personally am more curious about the wiring. I want to be able to make a pigtail so I can plug it on and off whenever I want. I will look to do that in the winter time, I totally forgot about it. I am skeptical about the true gain from it as no one posted a dyno sheet. I wonder if the gain is from changing to a new coil since the original coils go bad at 30K or so

I don't see why you would need to be connecting and disconnecting coils. They are a stock replacement. I don't think anyone has dyno'd with just the coils change NA, but many attest to the extra oomph and the lasting time is greatly increased.
If you are making a conscious decision to use crappy tires while racing, then you are limiting yourself.
The Exhaust by itself is not a great gain but it can be tuned for, thus the combination of Midpipe and AP will net up to 20 HP, whereas both separately wont do more than 5 each.

since you are allowed to run 17's, you should widen up a bit, 245 or 255 seem to be highly regarded for NA needs.

Lastly I that you want a lot of proof with the advice offered. Trust me, nobody here is trying to steer you wrong. Try some of the advice given and Im sure you will be happy. Besides, isn't racing about trial and error???

I just want to be able to go back to stock easily in case I want to sell the car. As I stated, I don't plan to keep the car for more than 2-3 years. I just want to be careful with what I buy and do. I have gone down the road of modifying cars endlessly, I then found out I can do more with limited mods.

I made the decision to use the old Toyos because I wanted to compare it with the other cars I had that were on the same tires! You see why I am hesitant with advices from people that had never done this (car to car comparison with limited variables )? The goal was to compare apples with apples, not apples with oranges. Note no one had listed times before and after mods or dynosheet.

I listed what I am going to get for tire size, I think it was on page 1 or 2. I have to keep the car street legal, cat is a must. I also can't live with myself to be slow and releasing nasty fumes. A header/muffler/cat/intake will net nothing more than 5-10rwhp (if that, excluding tune). Tune is definitely helpful given the car runs rich up top, the decision is get the flash or get the cobbs unit. Is it track safe? I am scared because not many people are running it. (note how no one said I am using it)

I don't see why you would need to be connecting and disconnecting coils. They are a stock replacement. I don't think anyone has dyno'd with just the coils change NA, but many attest to the extra oomph and the lasting time is greatly increased.
If you are making a conscious decision to use crappy tires while racing, then you are limiting yourself.
The Exhaust by itself is not a great gain but it can be tuned for, thus the combination of Midpipe and AP will net up to 20 HP, whereas both separately wont do more than 5 each.
since you are allowed to run 17's, you should widen up a bit, 245 or 255 seem to be highly regarded for NA needs.

I will no longer be contributing to this thread. Good luck suggesting things guys.


^ This
Genius out.

Hey did you ever dyno your car?

Some people do. Of course the AP is safe. It has been used on track cars and is entirely safe. Just put in the right fuel and you are good to go.

tmak, some advice. you're 6 yrs late to the party. It's only a new car to you. Much more than you know has been tried, proven or disgarded yrs ago. Searching & researching the forum would be more productive endeavor for you. Regurgitating data points on at your behest is not what members are here for.

The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth,'' and so it goes away. Good luck ... you'll need it.

spin over an out.

He's not listening to any ideas.:banghead:
He thinks that track days are racing.:banghead:
This thread is a waste of time. :banghead:

Hey did you ever dyno your car?

Some people do. Of course the AP is safe. It has been used on track cars and is entirely safe. Just put in the right fuel and you are good to go.

Not the RX-8, I did it with every car I owned (I have stock dyno sheets to 7 cars). The nearest dyno is closed, so it's hard to do it now. I just use the datalogger as a reference point to see what the power is at.

Spin9K: You are right that many things have been tried in the past six years (I did own an 04 in 2005 or 2006). I am just looking for objective numbers to backup people's claims. I am not saying they are right or wrong, I just don't want to waste my time doing the wrong things.

He's not listening to any ideas.:banghead:
He thinks that track days are racing.:banghead:
This thread is a waste of time. :banghead:

I am not listening? Let me see....

#1 Tires.....I had listed in post #1 to exclude that as I know what they can offer and I had said I want a fair comparison between all the cars I drove that had the same tires.

#2 ECU Tuning (I am on board with it. I was more curious as to who had tried it at the track and if the chip is better than the tune.)

#3 Tire size (Already went over that one and someone backed my thoughts about the 17")

#4 Suspension (I already said suspension is definitely an improvement area, but no one had said how much better coilovers are compare to a shock/sway combo. Once again, I want to see objective comparison if it is possible.

#5 Exhaust..... I heard it loud and clear, I responded by saying I can't run without a cat. I also said header/highflow cat/muffler would net no more than 5-10rwhp for $1200. No one disputed that.

#6 Driving....I never said I was the best driver, but how is it that I can set lap records and win TTs with other cars. Yet I struggle to find time in this? I agreed that I left a little bit of time out there, but it really isn't big enough to close a large gap. I also put up my datalog for all to see, if you can find 2-3 seconds, show it to me.

Am I missing something? Perhaps it's because I am typing on a cell phone, so certain things might be lost in translation. I don't agree with some people's opinion doesn't mean I am not listening. I am hoping they can find something to prove me wrong!

Ever think that not everyone is going to be able to drive different cars at their full potential? Different cars have different handling characteristics...Therefore the RX8 might not be the right car for you.

Also, Compairing the same tire (R888) on different cars is not always a good thing. Take the R1R for example. The ST cars at Nationals love the R1Rs' but when Jason did his test, he mentioned that the weight of the RX8 is too much for the R1R's. There is a guy down in Georgia who has tracked a few times on the R888's and hates them on his RX8. Is it possible that the heavier cars...350z and Vette, are a better match for the R888's...Who knows.

I can think of some reeaaallyyyy cheap mods should not cost you more than $60 combined. might not be a huge bump in performance but they work.

1. DIY Stock intake box mod with 1 or 0 screens (free) + fhigh flow filter ($50)

2. DIY Throttle body bypass mod ($3) just need a fitting and clamps

3. DIY gut your catalytic converter a hammer and a metal pole is all you need($ a real man should have these things on stock)

4. JDM style :rofl: hood lift for the cooling ram air effect ($5) spacers or washers is all you need. notice the crooked looking hood

http://www.modifiedcarforums.com/images/events/2006/initial_drift/july/oran_park_22_7_06/images/initial_drift_64.jpg

4. And if a fire starts under the hood you will be grilled when the flames goes through the air ventilation intake.

4. And if a fire starts under the hood you will be grilled when the flames goes through the air ventilation intake.

..... so bring marshmellows ?

..... so bring marshmellows ?

why bring them? you are going to be a huge marshmellow :rolleyes:

mmmm marshmallows :aroused:

http://www.jonco48.com/blog/marshmallow_20bra.jpg

5. throw a ice pack on your intake for cooling, CAI