Budget performance mods (track guys, not autox)
10-07-2009, 06:57 PM
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I was simply replying to some of the responses I had gotten. Go back to the first few posts, I never talked about the driver with the exception of admitting myself leaving a tiny bit of time off the table.
I know those mods are not big gainers for the RX-8, I had just listed them as an example of what other cars can offer. I am looking for something that will give me the best bang for the buck, excluding driver/tires/brakes while maintaining a street friendly car.
I don't agree with everything you say, but there are a lot of points I agree with you on. For example, "handle/feel better" doesn't mean it is faster. I do think the RX-8 can benefit a lot by having a stiffer suspension. I truly believe in that because I see a weird pattern in cornering speed between the three cars I had and drove. http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7...carcompare.pdf I want to remove myself as a variable (for comparison sake) because most of my laps reveal the same pattern where I am faster in the RX-8 on some corners and slower on some. In the corners where the RX-8 was slower, I found that those were the corners that I had massive amount of lean and I never felt comfortable going through it. I think most would agree that coil-overs are probably the best cure for this, but then it is a $2000 part. Is that $2000 going to get me one sec, two sec or three secs? That's what I want to find out! I look at it this way, handling is subjective while lap times are objective. I want to have an objective answer! By the way, it is way easier to lap the RX-8 consistently than the C6 or the 350z. More power, more room for error.
As for engine power, I had a theory that the RX-8 can benefit by a shorter gear ratio. You can do that cheaply by doing a 245/17 setup, I think someone else backed me on this. Does a flash work? That's a $400 question, but there aren't seem to be many cars on the track with a flashed ECU.
I have an in car camera that shows nothing more than the cars in front of me, so not sure how it is helpful. Start the video @ the 3:15 mark, http://www.vimeo.com/6940191 Car in front had the same car as me with the exception of a set of BFG R1s and a muffler. He was definitely quicker as a driver, but the R1 looked pretty helpful going up the hill and on the off camber corners where I spun one rear tire on my R888. You can see I was a lot slower in the back section on the track, I gained the distance back at the front section of the track. Start this at the one minute mark, you will see the difference driving a 400HP car http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9sx-rkx5UM .
All my times are listed, do a search on lap times for 100% stock cars and see how I compare.
I know those mods are not big gainers for the RX-8, I had just listed them as an example of what other cars can offer. I am looking for something that will give me the best bang for the buck, excluding driver/tires/brakes while maintaining a street friendly car.
I don't agree with everything you say, but there are a lot of points I agree with you on. For example, "handle/feel better" doesn't mean it is faster. I do think the RX-8 can benefit a lot by having a stiffer suspension. I truly believe in that because I see a weird pattern in cornering speed between the three cars I had and drove. http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7...carcompare.pdf I want to remove myself as a variable (for comparison sake) because most of my laps reveal the same pattern where I am faster in the RX-8 on some corners and slower on some. In the corners where the RX-8 was slower, I found that those were the corners that I had massive amount of lean and I never felt comfortable going through it. I think most would agree that coil-overs are probably the best cure for this, but then it is a $2000 part. Is that $2000 going to get me one sec, two sec or three secs? That's what I want to find out! I look at it this way, handling is subjective while lap times are objective. I want to have an objective answer! By the way, it is way easier to lap the RX-8 consistently than the C6 or the 350z. More power, more room for error.
As for engine power, I had a theory that the RX-8 can benefit by a shorter gear ratio. You can do that cheaply by doing a 245/17 setup, I think someone else backed me on this. Does a flash work? That's a $400 question, but there aren't seem to be many cars on the track with a flashed ECU.
I have an in car camera that shows nothing more than the cars in front of me, so not sure how it is helpful. Start the video @ the 3:15 mark, http://www.vimeo.com/6940191 Car in front had the same car as me with the exception of a set of BFG R1s and a muffler. He was definitely quicker as a driver, but the R1 looked pretty helpful going up the hill and on the off camber corners where I spun one rear tire on my R888. You can see I was a lot slower in the back section on the track, I gained the distance back at the front section of the track. Start this at the one minute mark, you will see the difference driving a 400HP car http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9sx-rkx5UM .
All my times are listed, do a search on lap times for 100% stock cars and see how I compare.
Ok, that's a start, although you were again talking about the driver a lot there, where you said a post or so ago this was simply about the car, not the driver. And what is major to you? Is is a cost ceiling, or install difficulty...what exactly? BTW no one changes their control arms in an 8 and an exhaust does about nothing, for example.
There is no mod that will change the power output of the engine significantly. So as the engine is off the list I can answer your original post question easily. Nothing will make the car significantly 'faster' down a straight, while there are some changes that will make the car handle better around corners. I don't know if 'handle better' equates to 'faster' in your mind.
The 'handle better' part is really where the driver makes the difference. Better driving can make a particular car faster.
Do you want us to critique your driving style? Just because you can drive car A well & fast, it doesn't automatically follow that you can drive B well & fast. So even you driving the different cars you offer up isn't really proof of lap time superiority.
Perhaps you can post some more vids of the car driving you did in both? Maybe once driving your Z and one with your 8. That would help a little, but it would still be hard unless someone rode with you. What do your instructors say? I assume you still get occasional instruction just to brush up every now and then and esp. if you want to go faster in an unfamilar car like your RX-8
But then again that the driver not the car. Simple answer, nothing will make the car accelerate faster that's not major!
There is no mod that will change the power output of the engine significantly. So as the engine is off the list I can answer your original post question easily. Nothing will make the car significantly 'faster' down a straight, while there are some changes that will make the car handle better around corners. I don't know if 'handle better' equates to 'faster' in your mind.
The 'handle better' part is really where the driver makes the difference. Better driving can make a particular car faster.
Do you want us to critique your driving style? Just because you can drive car A well & fast, it doesn't automatically follow that you can drive B well & fast. So even you driving the different cars you offer up isn't really proof of lap time superiority.
Perhaps you can post some more vids of the car driving you did in both? Maybe once driving your Z and one with your 8. That would help a little, but it would still be hard unless someone rode with you. What do your instructors say? I assume you still get occasional instruction just to brush up every now and then and esp. if you want to go faster in an unfamilar car like your RX-8
But then again that the driver not the car. Simple answer, nothing will make the car accelerate faster that's not major!
Last edited by tmak26b; 10-07-2009 at 07:01 PM.
10-07-2009, 07:58 PM
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10-07-2009, 08:50 PM
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fixed, sorry.
Alignment is reasonable, nothing crazy (the reason why I didn't ask the autox guys). Tires are planned for the next year. I wanted to use up the Toyos I had in the garage, plus it would make a better comparison to my two old cars with the Toyo. I still say the RA1s I had on the 350 felt the grippiest, the R888 on the Corvette were shot. The ones on the RX-8s were worn too.
Alignment is reasonable, nothing crazy (the reason why I didn't ask the autox guys). Tires are planned for the next year. I wanted to use up the Toyos I had in the garage, plus it would make a better comparison to my two old cars with the Toyo. I still say the RA1s I had on the 350 felt the grippiest, the R888 on the Corvette were shot. The ones on the RX-8s were worn too.
10-07-2009, 09:57 PM
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Sooo, have you decided on how to go about getting faster times. I think last time I post it was basically a big mod list that I pretty much have on my car lol, sorry.
I don't know how much of a budget you are working with but if I had to say anything, it would be sways/tires or coilovers/tires and or sways/strut bar/tires and I think you would chop atleast a sec off with sways/tires IMO.
If you are just going to use the current tires then get either coilovers and or sways/struts and I know for a fact that once you get used to the car again you will easily chop off a sec and be able to hit the corner harder than usual even if that is not your style the upgrades mentioned will let you do it lol.
I don't know how much of a budget you are working with but if I had to say anything, it would be sways/tires or coilovers/tires and or sways/strut bar/tires and I think you would chop atleast a sec off with sways/tires IMO.
If you are just going to use the current tires then get either coilovers and or sways/struts and I know for a fact that once you get used to the car again you will easily chop off a sec and be able to hit the corner harder than usual even if that is not your style the upgrades mentioned will let you do it lol.
Last edited by bhop; 10-07-2009 at 10:02 PM.
10-07-2009, 11:03 PM
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I don't have a set budget, at the same time, I am not going to spend it just for the hack of it. My tires are shot, so I had to buy new ones anyway. I always exclude tires/pads from my racing budget as they are just part of the track expenses.
Obviously tires/17s will be #1, I had already said that before. My debate was either stick with 18s or get 17s. I am still debating if I should get sway/shocks or just get a complete set of coilovers. I don't see any hard data on how much faster a set of coilovers are. It's basically $2K vs $1K.
I am probably not going to bother with an exhaust, maybe a chip
Other than that, nothing really. I will see how much that improves. I can improve as a driver all I want, but there is nothing more than a second or so there.
Obviously tires/17s will be #1, I had already said that before. My debate was either stick with 18s or get 17s. I am still debating if I should get sway/shocks or just get a complete set of coilovers. I don't see any hard data on how much faster a set of coilovers are. It's basically $2K vs $1K.
I am probably not going to bother with an exhaust, maybe a chip
Other than that, nothing really. I will see how much that improves. I can improve as a driver all I want, but there is nothing more than a second or so there.
10-07-2009, 11:22 PM
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Well, I assure you that a set of coilovers will get the job done and with you improving as a driver. Get some Tein Flex or JIC coilovers and you can then approach that turn with more confidence. Coilovers will def help. If you are really ballin get some KW variant's or ohlins coilovers.
10-08-2009, 01:33 AM
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Get a RP Supercat (never thought I'd say that). and the AP.
Dude, no joke, 80% of those posted here have recommended the AP and Midpipe... how are you not getting this? You ask us for advice, and I am begging you to take it. Please (an Rx8club first)
The difference is night and day.
If your running on Worn tires, there is no comparison. You are thinking of your best possible runs in your other cars, and comparing it to what you currently run in the 8. The problem with that is, R888's aren't good, and since yours are worn, it is not a fair mental comparison.
My advice for starter mods from what you described:
Tires on 17's
Swaybars Racing beat makes a good set.
*At this point you should have a better idea on whether or not you want to continue with this car. After the tires you should see the most difference but this would be my stop point if I didn't improve to my liking.*
BHR Ignition
Mazdamaniac Tuned Cobb Access Port
Midpipe OR High Flow Cat
Coilovers
*This is more or less the NA limit. At this point its all driver vs competition. Your car will be great.*
Dude, no joke, 80% of those posted here have recommended the AP and Midpipe... how are you not getting this? You ask us for advice, and I am begging you to take it. Please (an Rx8club first)
The difference is night and day.
If your running on Worn tires, there is no comparison. You are thinking of your best possible runs in your other cars, and comparing it to what you currently run in the 8. The problem with that is, R888's aren't good, and since yours are worn, it is not a fair mental comparison.
My advice for starter mods from what you described:
Tires on 17's
Swaybars Racing beat makes a good set.
*At this point you should have a better idea on whether or not you want to continue with this car. After the tires you should see the most difference but this would be my stop point if I didn't improve to my liking.*
BHR Ignition
Mazdamaniac Tuned Cobb Access Port
Midpipe OR High Flow Cat
Coilovers
*This is more or less the NA limit. At this point its all driver vs competition. Your car will be great.*
10-08-2009, 05:54 AM
#88
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I will no longer be contributing to this thread. Good luck suggesting things guys.
On a completely different note----if any of you would like help driving please feel free to contact me. Would be glad to help. Looks like we're heading to NASA CMP Nov 2009 and NASA Road ATL Dec 2009 to sort out a new car. Stop by and say hey.
Meyer out
On a completely different note----if any of you would like help driving please feel free to contact me. Would be glad to help. Looks like we're heading to NASA CMP Nov 2009 and NASA Road ATL Dec 2009 to sort out a new car. Stop by and say hey.
Meyer out
10-08-2009, 08:53 AM
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When I said chip, I also meant to say ecu tune. So yes, I was debating between flash or the cobbs unit. I am with you on that one.
I had a high flow rp cat before, the difference was less than 3hp. Exhaust in general doesn't add much in the rx8 short of removing the cat, that's why it was never high on my list.
The corvette tires were worse, so I can compare it and get a rough idea. Those were almost the same compounds, none were higher than 100 compound. I wanted to run the rx8 in the same compound to see how it compares.
Trust me I am listening, but I don't see anyone backing their ideas with proof. I am not asking for driving critique, I got plenty of those at the nationals from my co driver.
I had a high flow rp cat before, the difference was less than 3hp. Exhaust in general doesn't add much in the rx8 short of removing the cat, that's why it was never high on my list.
The corvette tires were worse, so I can compare it and get a rough idea. Those were almost the same compounds, none were higher than 100 compound. I wanted to run the rx8 in the same compound to see how it compares.
Trust me I am listening, but I don't see anyone backing their ideas with proof. I am not asking for driving critique, I got plenty of those at the nationals from my co driver.
Get a RP Supercat (never thought I'd say that). and the AP.
Dude, no joke, 80% of those posted here have recommended the AP and Midpipe... how are you not getting this? You ask us for advice, and I am begging you to take it. Please (an Rx8club first)
The difference is night and day.
If your running on Worn tires, there is no comparison. You are thinking of your best possible runs in your other cars, and comparing it to what you currently run in the 8. The problem with that is, R888's aren't good, and since yours are worn, it is not a fair mental comparison.
My advice for starter mods from what you described:
Tires on 17's
Swaybars Racing beat makes a good set.
*At this point you should have a better idea on whether or not you want to continue with this car. After the tires you should see the most difference but this would be my stop point if I didn't improve to my liking.*
BHR Ignition
Mazdamaniac Tuned Cobb Access Port
Midpipe OR High Flow Cat
Coilovers
*This is more or less the NA limit. At this point its all driver vs competition. Your car will be great.*
Dude, no joke, 80% of those posted here have recommended the AP and Midpipe... how are you not getting this? You ask us for advice, and I am begging you to take it. Please (an Rx8club first)
The difference is night and day.
If your running on Worn tires, there is no comparison. You are thinking of your best possible runs in your other cars, and comparing it to what you currently run in the 8. The problem with that is, R888's aren't good, and since yours are worn, it is not a fair mental comparison.
My advice for starter mods from what you described:
Tires on 17's
Swaybars Racing beat makes a good set.
*At this point you should have a better idea on whether or not you want to continue with this car. After the tires you should see the most difference but this would be my stop point if I didn't improve to my liking.*
BHR Ignition
Mazdamaniac Tuned Cobb Access Port
Midpipe OR High Flow Cat
Coilovers
*This is more or less the NA limit. At this point its all driver vs competition. Your car will be great.*
10-08-2009, 11:47 AM
#90
Recovering Piston driver
Get a RP Supercat (never thought I'd say that). and the AP.
Dude, no joke, 80% of those posted here have recommended the AP and Midpipe... how are you not getting this? You ask us for advice, and I am begging you to take it. Please (an Rx8club first)
The difference is night and day.
If your running on Worn tires, there is no comparison. You are thinking of your best possible runs in your other cars, and comparing it to what you currently run in the 8. The problem with that is, R888's aren't good, and since yours are worn, it is not a fair mental comparison.
My advice for starter mods from what you described:
Tires on 17's
Swaybars Racing beat makes a good set.
*At this point you should have a better idea on whether or not you want to continue with this car. After the tires you should see the most difference but this would be my stop point if I didn't improve to my liking.*
BHR Ignition
Mazdamaniac Tuned Cobb Access Port
Midpipe OR High Flow Cat
Coilovers
*This is more or less the NA limit. At this point its all driver vs competition. Your car will be great.*
Dude, no joke, 80% of those posted here have recommended the AP and Midpipe... how are you not getting this? You ask us for advice, and I am begging you to take it. Please (an Rx8club first)
The difference is night and day.
If your running on Worn tires, there is no comparison. You are thinking of your best possible runs in your other cars, and comparing it to what you currently run in the 8. The problem with that is, R888's aren't good, and since yours are worn, it is not a fair mental comparison.
My advice for starter mods from what you described:
Tires on 17's
Swaybars Racing beat makes a good set.
*At this point you should have a better idea on whether or not you want to continue with this car. After the tires you should see the most difference but this would be my stop point if I didn't improve to my liking.*
BHR Ignition
Mazdamaniac Tuned Cobb Access Port
Midpipe OR High Flow Cat
Coilovers
*This is more or less the NA limit. At this point its all driver vs competition. Your car will be great.*
there are limited things I can do before I get kicked out of the stock class.. so based on my own research (and this thread a lot) my mod want list is something like:
sways (should I get stiffer then RB's? I'll deal with ride quality issues
)midpipe
AP (doesn't cost me any points)
Ignition, I'm thinking DIY LS2 coil setup (no points here either)
Lightweight wheels (have to stick with 18s)
Two piece brake rotors (lighter then stock, no points here either)
so thank you all for the input, keep it coming please
Edit: I already bought a set of kumho XS 245/18s, they improved my laptime from 1:33 to 1:31 compared to the old general tire UHP 225s
Last edited by miztic; 10-08-2009 at 12:27 PM. Reason: forgot something
10-08-2009, 12:07 PM
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Maybe this will make some of you feel better, but I had a similar question, "whats the best bang for the buck upgrade on a stock rx-8"
there are limited things I can do before I get kicked out of the stock class.. so based on my own research (and this thread a lot) my mod want list is something like:
sways (should I get stiffer then RB's? I'll deal with ride quality issues )
midpipe
AP (doesn't cost me any points)
Ignition, I'm thinking DIY LS2 coil setup (no points here either)
Lightweight wheels (have to stick with 18s)
Two piece brake rotors (lighter then stock, no points here either)
so thank you all for the input, keep it coming please
there are limited things I can do before I get kicked out of the stock class.. so based on my own research (and this thread a lot) my mod want list is something like:
sways (should I get stiffer then RB's? I'll deal with ride quality issues
)midpipe
AP (doesn't cost me any points)
Ignition, I'm thinking DIY LS2 coil setup (no points here either)
Lightweight wheels (have to stick with 18s)
Two piece brake rotors (lighter then stock, no points here either)
so thank you all for the input, keep it coming please
Yes I forgot about the coils too, I have to look into it as a winter project. The $500 the shops want with no real pictures and description scares me a little bit.
10-08-2009, 02:17 PM
#92
Recovering Piston driver
good idea for a winter project
10-08-2009, 06:01 PM
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I didn't see the DIY, but I personally am more curious about the wiring. I want to be able to make a pigtail so I can plug it on and off whenever I want. I will look to do that in the winter time, I totally forgot about it. I am skeptical about the true gain from it as no one posted a dyno sheet. I wonder if the gain is from changing to a new coil since the original coils go bad at 30K or so
10-08-2009, 11:19 PM
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I don't see why you would need to be connecting and disconnecting coils. They are a stock replacement. I don't think anyone has dyno'd with just the coils change NA, but many attest to the extra oomph and the lasting time is greatly increased.
If you are making a conscious decision to use crappy tires while racing, then you are limiting yourself.
The Exhaust by itself is not a great gain but it can be tuned for, thus the combination of Midpipe and AP will net up to 20 HP, whereas both separately wont do more than 5 each.
since you are allowed to run 17's, you should widen up a bit, 245 or 255 seem to be highly regarded for NA needs.
Lastly I that you want a lot of proof with the advice offered. Trust me, nobody here is trying to steer you wrong. Try some of the advice given and Im sure you will be happy. Besides, isn't racing about trial and error???
If you are making a conscious decision to use crappy tires while racing, then you are limiting yourself.
The Exhaust by itself is not a great gain but it can be tuned for, thus the combination of Midpipe and AP will net up to 20 HP, whereas both separately wont do more than 5 each.
since you are allowed to run 17's, you should widen up a bit, 245 or 255 seem to be highly regarded for NA needs.
Lastly I that you want a lot of proof with the advice offered. Trust me, nobody here is trying to steer you wrong. Try some of the advice given and Im sure you will be happy. Besides, isn't racing about trial and error???
10-09-2009, 12:02 AM
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I just want to be able to go back to stock easily in case I want to sell the car. As I stated, I don't plan to keep the car for more than 2-3 years. I just want to be careful with what I buy and do. I have gone down the road of modifying cars endlessly, I then found out I can do more with limited mods.
I made the decision to use the old Toyos because I wanted to compare it with the other cars I had that were on the same tires! You see why I am hesitant with advices from people that had never done this (car to car comparison with limited variables )? The goal was to compare apples with apples, not apples with oranges. Note no one had listed times before and after mods or dynosheet.
I listed what I am going to get for tire size, I think it was on page 1 or 2. I have to keep the car street legal, cat is a must. I also can't live with myself to be slow and releasing nasty fumes. A header/muffler/cat/intake will net nothing more than 5-10rwhp (if that, excluding tune). Tune is definitely helpful given the car runs rich up top, the decision is get the flash or get the cobbs unit. Is it track safe? I am scared because not many people are running it. (note how no one said I am using it)
I made the decision to use the old Toyos because I wanted to compare it with the other cars I had that were on the same tires! You see why I am hesitant with advices from people that had never done this (car to car comparison with limited variables )? The goal was to compare apples with apples, not apples with oranges. Note no one had listed times before and after mods or dynosheet.
I listed what I am going to get for tire size, I think it was on page 1 or 2. I have to keep the car street legal, cat is a must. I also can't live with myself to be slow and releasing nasty fumes. A header/muffler/cat/intake will net nothing more than 5-10rwhp (if that, excluding tune). Tune is definitely helpful given the car runs rich up top, the decision is get the flash or get the cobbs unit. Is it track safe? I am scared because not many people are running it. (note how no one said I am using it)
I don't see why you would need to be connecting and disconnecting coils. They are a stock replacement. I don't think anyone has dyno'd with just the coils change NA, but many attest to the extra oomph and the lasting time is greatly increased.
If you are making a conscious decision to use crappy tires while racing, then you are limiting yourself.
The Exhaust by itself is not a great gain but it can be tuned for, thus the combination of Midpipe and AP will net up to 20 HP, whereas both separately wont do more than 5 each.
since you are allowed to run 17's, you should widen up a bit, 245 or 255 seem to be highly regarded for NA needs.
If you are making a conscious decision to use crappy tires while racing, then you are limiting yourself.
The Exhaust by itself is not a great gain but it can be tuned for, thus the combination of Midpipe and AP will net up to 20 HP, whereas both separately wont do more than 5 each.
since you are allowed to run 17's, you should widen up a bit, 245 or 255 seem to be highly regarded for NA needs.
10-09-2009, 12:32 AM
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10-09-2009, 03:05 AM
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Hey did you ever dyno your car?
Some people do. Of course the AP is safe. It has been used on track cars and is entirely safe. Just put in the right fuel and you are good to go.
Some people do. Of course the AP is safe. It has been used on track cars and is entirely safe. Just put in the right fuel and you are good to go.
10-09-2009, 07:19 AM
#98
Momentum Keeps Me Going
tmak, some advice. you're 6 yrs late to the party. It's only a new car to you. Much more than you know has been tried, proven or disgarded yrs ago. Searching & researching the forum would be more productive endeavor for you. Regurgitating data points on at your behest is not what members are here for.
The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth,'' and so it goes away. Good luck ... you'll need it.
spin over an out.
The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth,'' and so it goes away. Good luck ... you'll need it.
spin over an out.
10-09-2009, 12:08 PM
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Spin9K: You are right that many things have been tried in the past six years (I did own an 04 in 2005 or 2006). I am just looking for objective numbers to backup people's claims. I am not saying they are right or wrong, I just don't want to waste my time doing the wrong things.
Last edited by tmak26b; 10-09-2009 at 12:22 PM.