Lighting_GT

iTrader: (1)

All I'm saying is most people tend to think they need to modify their car off the bat to make it quicker at the track, but they rarely can actually drive the car properly to begin with, which is why they think they are slow.

Now, If you run a track that has alot of straights, yes you car will be at a disadvantage But if you run a tight track, you will notice you are keeping up with most other cars that were demolishing you on the straights.

If you are dead set on modifying your car, or you run mainly fast tracks, you really don't have many budget options because you are looking at engine modifications. some tuning and bolt on's may help you slightly, but you still won't be keeping up with any s2000's or 350's because you cannot compete with their power.

If you have the luxury of trying other tracks, look for one that's tight and technical. If you can do that, I suggest upgrading your cooling system firstly. Maybe the oil cooler fans, upgraded water pump ect... its not that expensive and will help your engine last longer.

Again, just my opinion.

imput1234

iTrader: (6)

seat time, tires, coilovers. Try to find more technical tracks like the shenandoah circuit @ Summit point, those tracks makes our car soo much more enjoyable.

alan23

I think slow is subjective and it would be good to know what cars are you benchmarking against.
I try to share my personal experiences with other cars that I know of (from track logging data). This is over a course of 5.5km with two 800m straights (so I presume horsepower can have a significant impact) with my own timing of mid 2.40s
My performance mods include IHE, reflash & 4.77 FD. I dyno at 184whp as attached somewhere before and runs UHP tyre during trackdays. No lightening for trackdays too.

Against relatively stock s2k (with Intake+exhaust+UHP only)
- I am running about 2kph (192kph) slower on the straights and concerning speed is comparable with me being slower by 2-3kph on most corner. On overall laptimes, I am about 3sec slower than him.

Against Mx-5 (IHE + UHP)
- about 15kph faster than the mx-5 on the straights. Corners abt 3-5kph faster than mx-5 on some corners. I am about 6 sec faster than him

Against new STi (IHE + remap + UHP)
- about 10kph slower than STi on that straights. Rx-8 corners abt 3-5kph faster but the STi really come out punching from the corner real strong. My timing is about 3 sec slower than STi.

Against evo x (many many diff variation)
- on the straight the E10 can be 20+kph faster than me for a 400bhp variant to about 10kph faster for exhaust + reflash variant. Cornering speed is comparable for those running on UHP and those running on semi-slicks can gain up to 10kph on me. E10 timing varies from 2.30 (someone who won a timeattack) to 2.45 (comparable to rx-8)

Against JDM Civic Type R (exhaust+reflash + UHP)
- on the straight the CTR is about 3kph faster than me. Corner speed is comparable and timing is about 2.43 (3 sec faster than me)

The rx-8 is a good driver car for someone relatively new to tracking, like me who have limited experience.
My two cents and hope is useful for your comparison

PS: All the comparison car including mine runs coilover except the Civic Type R, which already comes with rock hard stock suspension

Striker-7

iTrader: (3)

+1 vote for "The Shen"! 20-plus corners of "Can I get it right THIS time!?!"

I love VIR, Summit Point Main is OK, Watkins Glen was a dream come true, but when I get this crap straightened out at home and can play on track with the -8 again, Shenandoah is where I'm going to start the season.

I mean seriously, where else can you see three different straightaways with three utterly different exit corners, one of them being the Karrusel (170 degrees of high-banked concrete excitement)?

tmak26b

There aren't many tracks in the US or the world that will favor the RX-8, it's virtually an uphill battle no matter where you go (I was just at Pocono East, a course you don't even get over 95 in a RX-8). I guess I just have to accept that I will be battling with the middle of the pack guys rather than the ones in the top pack. Hopefully the new RX-7 will have some more power to keep up while keeping the balance and handling.

I am dead set on getting rid of the R888 for the R1s next year, I will most likely get a set of coilovers or maybe sways (I prefer coilovers as it is not a bandit fix like sways). If possible, maybe I will look for the ECU reflash too since that seems to be the only way to extract power from this motor. I guess that's all I can really do without wasting money from the next car.

Here are the difference in times with me as the driver.

Pocono North
350z 1:00.4 (stock except pads, on 235 RA1s)
C6 59.4 (stock except pads & worn R888s)
RX-8 1:04 (stock except pads, on worn 265 R888 (2 have cords))
Track record in the class is a stock Nismo Z on 285 R6s running 59.4. Most drivers in S2000 runs somewhere in the 1:02 range. Not sure about mods as I never drove them

Pocono East (POURING RAIN)
350z 1:17.8
RX-8 1:20.0

VIR Full
2:24 RX-8
2:18 350z
2:14 C6

There was a RX-8 that is similar to mine running 2:23 at VIR. It was mostly the same as my car except it had R1s to it. I am sure he is still faster, but the difference should be smaller with the right tires.

Lighting_GT

iTrader: (1)

Can always go FI :P but that blows the whole "budget" idea...

tmak26b

that's when I say f it and buy a new car

Spin9k

You'll never be able to make up the HP deficit vs. others with inexpensive mods like ECU, there's just very little power to be gained and a good chance of denonating/overheating your engine on track if you try.

Things to possibly improve times (except FI) are 'good' r-comps tires, lightening everything possible (interior, rotors, calipers, wheels, accessories), and sorting out the suspension to your particular liking (sways, strut bars, coilovers, body braces).

Then there is your driving style and track line, that while it may have fit your previous car's profiles and lead to success in times attained, may not work w/momentum cars like the 8. Habits on track can be hard to break, work on them, study what winning drivers do, plan and experiment, use your track data and revise thru feedback. Seconds can be found, but they are hard earned, and not just done with your right foot, because there's so little there.

When properly setup and executed on track (concerning both your car and your state of mind), I find there is a point that you can attain levels of speed and cornering that really are quite good and certainly rewarding.

BTW we are talking a 6sp car here yes?

Still doesn't mean you'll beat all other CARS at the track, but it does mean many other DRIVERS will stop by wondering how your underpowered car and you can do what you do and pass many of them. The 8 is not a brute force track demon you need to finesse it a lot, as you are likely finding out.

tmak26b

You are absolutely right about a lot of those things, that's why I was trying to gather info to see what is a good mod or a bad mod. I already went through the stages of heavily modifying cars, I don't want to do that again. I am looking for little things that can get me the most benefit without having to blow my budget.

Lightening things by removal kind of goes against selling cars in two years, you don't get the same value for the car by hacking it. That's when I have to come up with the perfect balance. Buying lighter components will also add cost that don't equate to much, so buying lightweight parts is probably not the right way to go.

Out of all the things you mentioned, the slicks are already #1 on my list. I am used to running the semi slicks because I never had a car that can quite carry 4 tires, the RX-8 is big enough for me to do that. The 265/35/18 I have came off my last car, so it didn't really cost me anything. Of course I found out they are probably not the optimum choice as far as size or compounds. Also it was a hopeless feeling to see the other RX-8 being able to grip and drive off the corners quite a bit better than me.

I completely agree with you that I can definitely change my driving style to fit this car better. I am used to cars with power, so revving the **** out of the car corner after corner is not something I am used to. I already see a lot of that in my datalogs. Of course I do have to mention that the relatively soft suspension on the RX-8 doesn't exactly give you high confidence through some corners. (NASCAR bend at VIR for example). Still, I am no spring chicken in the game of track driving. There is no three seconds in this car in its current form.

Yes it's a 6 spd car. When I bought the RX-8, I knew my chances of FTD are long gone. Yet I didn't expect the car to be so much slower than the top pack. By no means is the car slow, it's just slower than the top pack and what I was hoping for. I honestly was expecting 2 seconds slower in a 1.5 miles course, I never thought the difference would be 4!!!!

I guess the only good thing is that I paid half as much as what I did for my other cars.

bhop

Midpipe/remove the exhaust, gut it out completely, 255 tires lightweight wheels, race seats, f/r strut bars, sway bars, JIC rear traction bars/control arms, coilovers-kw variant, ohlins. You should be able to keep up for sure,

G-ReX

Bill's car has a B&B muffler, HP+ pads on the front, Konis and he may have done the Mazmart water pump before your event. I think that's it. His is also a base model, so it may be a little lighter. I think he got the exhaust for jollies because it was cheap. I've ridden with him at VIR before & after the Koni's & they eliminated some understeer he had - I think you alluded to the same in another thread. It would make sense to do springs at the same time since the car rolls a lot, but keep the drop under an inch. You might PM him - wankelbolt - since he hasn't chimed in here.

tmak26b

He was the guy that was about a sec to 1.5 sec in front of me at VIR. It was a combination of driver, tires and maybe the mods. He mentioned the fact that his car was noticeably quicker down the straights. I wasn't sure if it was the power or the fact he can come off the corner faster than me. I have checked my car against others, it doesn't seem like my car is making any less power than other stock RX-8s. When I was behind him, I noticed he can clearly put the power down faster off the turns and his car seem to have less lean than mine. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what it is, but it is certainly a combination of driver/tires/mods. I honestly don't think the muffler did all that much, but the shocks definitely looked helpful. Driving on the street, the car doesn't feel like it need shocks/springs, but they sure do look helpful on the track.

I have the video running with him somewhere on a memory card, I just gotta find it.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

The R888s will fall off before they are completely worn out, unlike the RA-1s. Is it possible your tires are shot?

Also, my '04 makes 210 Hp to the ground (Mustang dyno), and weighs 2850. If I'm not mistaken, that makes it fairly competitive with a stock S2000, in terms of power/weight ratio.

This required a custom mid-pipe (with a high-flow cat), a Corksport cat-back, a K&N drop-in filter, an underdrive pulley (which probably contributed nothing) and a custom dyno tune using a Cobb AP.

[edit] None of what I describe above is cheap, so perhaps it wasn't appropriate to post in this thread. But it can be done.

Razz1

Well... other than what others suggested.......

The best bet for a few hundred bucks is the Access Port from MM.

You will get 20 more ponies to the rear.

Pads
Fluid
Sways
Tires
AP
Practice

bhop

Well, what I said earlier would def put him close to a 350z if not in front of it with no problem for certain tracks. That Cobb AP is not cheap neither. Maybe he should save in that case.

Oh yea, he mentioned that he did not want to spend too much money, what is not spending too much money or how much money can he spend?

tmak26b

You are right about how my R888s are crap (I corded the rears). I am never getting those tires again. Unlike the RA1s, the R888 simply doesn't like life. I actually accelerated the wear on these tires by downshifting into 2nd (net result was like a .2 sec in times...) Honestly, even if these R888 are new, I still think the difference would be a second max. That would still put me in a spot where I will be racing with BMW sedans/Hondas rather than the big boys. It is what it is, I will start by getting a set of R1s. I actually have a thought about tires/wheels. I am currently using another set of stock wheels, but I am seriously thinking about dropping down to a 17x8 and run a 235/40 tire instead (as opposed to 245). That would give me the benefit of the lower gearing and save me a shift to 2nd in tight corners. After that, it would seem to make sense to buy a set of coil-overs. I am trying to stay away from the sway bar as it seems to be a temporary fix. Lastly, something needs to be done with the power. The lower gearing would help me slightly, also the less friction from the 235 would be benefical. I know it might sound strange that I want to go with a narrower tire, but I really don't think the RX-8 has enough power to use 265 unless you use a lot of 2nd gear. This is something I am still debating about, I will decide when time comes closer. As far as power goes, I would be curious to see if sometihng like the RB tune would help. I would prefer to stay away from obvious mods like intake and exhaust since my car is still under warranty. Also it seems to me the intake and exhaust are not a great way to get good bang for your buck (<8bhp for $1000). If that is the case, perhaps something like the RB flash might just do the job. They claim 8HP, but since I have stock everything, maybe it will do a few more HP across the powerband. If I can get 4HP across the entire powerband, I would gladly pay the $300.

I can afford to buy parts, I just don't want to go crazy on it because the whole purpose of this car is to save a little money before a car I like comes out again.

If your car is truly putting out 210 at the wheels, then yes the car is competitive against a car like S2000, but I really don't think a stock RX-8 puts more than 185HP to the ground.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

By all means, get the 17s. I have a set and you can feel the difference in acceleration.

Yes, a stock RX-8 puts down 175-185. Mine did 180 on a dynojet with just the catback & K&N filter. The midpipe & cobb tune added power & torque across the entire band, getting me to 210. And, I still have not reached 220, which seems to be the upper limit without going forced induction or taking the motor apart.

tmak26b

The 245/40/17 on the R1 is teh same diameter as the 235/40/17, the overall diameter is 1.6" smaller, so I think that's what i will be using next year

Razz1

Here's the the thing on the Access Port from MM..

You can uninstall it in two years and sell it to a club member in your area.

Tune has to be uninstalled and returned back to stock in order for you to resell it.

So the cost is more practical now.

miztic

I compared notes with my 350z driving nemesis (I'm 1.5 sec slower on a 1:30 lap time), he basically goes 3rd and 4th gear around the track, and i'm between 2nd and 3rd, the car has very little torque, you gotta rev it

quazmosis

iTrader: (2)

I just started autoxing, and when I did the beginner driver training school stuff, the instructer asked to drive my car, and I rode. He was a good 4-5 seconds faster than my time and I drive an Auto.

Winning 8

you need some hawk blue, slick, shocks & springs.
also a sticker that said: "drive it like you stole it" or "***** out competition"

quazmosis

iTrader: (2)

I = fail. I just read the title again and then what a complete idiot I was for posting autox related stuff. quazmosis what a ******.

JantzenRX-8

iTrader: (9)

I like this guy...

Keep it simple stupid

dillsrotary

I maybe the first to say this, but maybe you bought the wrong car? You can "budget" build and still have fun (17" wheels, slicks, pads) but when you add all the other crap that people are saying (sways, coilovers, midpipe and flash) you are removing yourself from the "budget" part of your build.

Since you are trying to stay competitive within your class maybe you should have purchased an obvious competitive/popular car within the class instead of the under dog?

I hope everything works at for ya.