I'm taking under the assumption that the oil metering pump is still controlled by the stock computer with the Interceptor-X/Microtech. If so is there anyway to increase the oil metering pump voltage then?

I'm wondering because I would think a little more oil would be required with a turbo engine then the stock N/A. Anyone have any ideas?

thewird

Premix...it works better and is more consistent....

Well premixing is fine for someone that treats their car as a summer/weekend warrior but for someone that wants their car to run like a normal car all season without carrying cases of premix around that really isn't an option. Especially for the rx8 which requires more frequent fillups. Or at least its annoying as hell for someone who doesn't treat their car as something more then a car.

A little info, this is not my car and is a customers car I am tuning. I do own an RX-7 and the PowerFC ECU has a function to bump up the OEM oil metering pump voltage by temperature. I only dab a bit of premix when I go to the track but otherwise its stock oil metering. This works well as the housings dont show any sign of excessive where when I open the engine up. I drive the car often and take it to the track often as well (26,000 km so far this year with over 10 track days).

I would just rather not tell the customer, "you installed a turbo so now you have to start premixing because we're unsure if your engine will wear quicker then normal".

thewird

Get rid of the IntX and flash tune or premix . Those are your only options .
Anyone who has a turbo fitted should understand that additional maintenance is a good idea . Can't see why you can't just tell him that .

premix is a must for an NA Renesis even; it's a design flaw
it would be beneficial to tell your customer to premix IMO

If you carry 1 quart around you have lots for quite a few tanks....and for the peace of mind he would be foolish not too.....You can flash tune it to up the OMP flow...but it isn't a voltage thing to get more flow.......

Well premixing is fine for someone that treats their car as a summer/weekend warrior but for someone that wants their car to run like a normal car all season without carrying cases of premix around that really isn't an option. Especially for the rx8 which requires more frequent fillups.

A little info, this is not my car and is a customers car I am tuning. I do own an RX-7 and the PowerFC ECU has a function to bump up the OEM oil metering pump voltage by temperature. I only dab a bit of premix when I go to the track but otherwise its stock oil metering. This works well as the housings dont show any sign of excessive where when I open the engine up. I drive the car often and take it to the track often as well (26,000 km so far this year with over 10 track days).

I would just rather not tell the customer, "you installed a turbo so now you have to start premixing because we're unsure if your engine will wear quicker then normal".

thewird

Use both the AP to bump the oil metering and the INTX to maintain the other variables, currently I don't premix and have a larger turbo and have yet to see a need for premix.

The engine has 10k miles on it with the turbo kit but those miles were heavy spirited driving, autocrossing, and just flat out having fun with it.





This kit has been on my car for over 2 years now without major issue.

Use both the AP to bump the oil metering and the INTX to maintain the other variables, currently I don't premix and have a larger turbo and have yet to see a need for premix.

The engine has 10k miles on it with the turbo kit but those miles were heavy spirited driving, autocrossing, and just flat out having fun with it.

This kit has been on my car for over 2 years now without major issue.
Thats actually a very good idea. The customer does have an accessport so I could ask him for it. I just didn't know what you could change with the accessport as I have never played with it.

If you carry 1 quart around you have lots for quite a few tanks....and for the peace of mind he would be foolish not too.....You can flash tune it to up the OMP flow...but it isn't a voltage thing to get more flow.......
I assumed the RX-8 oil metering pump worked the same as on the RX-7. Basically it is mechanically controlled by RPM and the computer controls the voltage to the oil pump. As water temperature goes up, the voltage is increased to add more oil.

The only reason I even add premix at the track is because the 3mm ceramic apex seals should be more agressive on the housings as they don't wear. So I add a little extra oil for extra insurance when I'm beating the car hard at the track. If I was using stock type seals I wouldn't even bother.

thewird

If he has an AP he does not need the InterX. Waste of money. The AP will do everything needed related to tuning and engine management. Including the OMP output. One package and simple.

CLICK (http://paradox-performance.mazdamaniac.com/cobb/accessport.htm)

That is not what the seller of the of the turbo kit (Esmeril Racing) thinks. He says the accessport is junk for a high boost RX-8 and would likely lead to motor blowing.

Also, using a MAP over a MAF is preferred in a turbo car for accurate tuning. So I sort of understand where he is coming from.

thewird

How much boost are you going to run? If you don't mind me asking?

How much boost are you going to run? If you don't mind me asking?
I'm aiming for 12 as I honestly don't trust the RX-8 seals with high compression rotors to take the abuse of what I normally tune say an FD to which is 16-17 PSi. I understand it needs less timing and a touch more fuel and will be testing timing on the dyno once I get the car running mint tuned on the street.

My starting timing map is pretty conservative to begin with, as I basically took the timing I run at 15-16 PSi (on a streetported FD motor) and put it at 10 PSi and filled the timing around that. More or less anyway.

If the owner later comes to me asking for more after a month or so of driving, I will tune it to 15-16 but he has to understand how on the edge it is for his stock motor. We do have Sunoco 94 octane available locally everywhere so thats kindof a plus though. If he gets some sort of injection, I would feel a lot more comfortable though.

thewird

That is not what the seller of the of the turbo kit (Esmeril Racing) thinks. He says the accessport is junk for a high boost RX-8 and would likely lead to motor blowing.

Also, using a MAP over a MAF is preferred in a turbo car for accurate tuning. So I sort of understand where he is coming from.

thewird

He is correct, and I would agree with you as well.

I'm aiming for 12 as I honestly don't trust the RX-8 seals with high compression rotors to take the abuse of what I normally tune say an FD to which is 16-17 PSi. I understand it needs less timing and a touch more fuel and will be testing timing on the dyno once I get the car running mint tuned on the street.

My starting timing map is pretty conservative to begin with, as I basically took the timing I run at 15-16 PSi (on a streetported FD motor) and put it at 10 PSi and filled the timing around that. More or less anyway.

If the owner later comes to me asking for more after a month or so of driving, I will tune it to 15-16 but he has to understand how on the edge it is for his stock motor. We do have Sunoco 94 octane available locally everywhere so thats kindof a plus though. If he gets some sort of injection, I would feel a lot more comfortable though.

thewird

I have run 14 psi and up but like you said it really puts the car's motor on its edge. I run 8 daily and 14 psi for fun. My flow would be slightly less then the esmeril kit if I am not mistaken so 12 would be best actually, running the higher octane he should be able to go even further.

If he has an AP he does not need the InterX. Waste of money. The AP will do everything needed related to tuning and engine management. Including the OMP output. One package and simple.

CLICK (http://paradox-performance.mazdamaniac.com/cobb/accessport.htm)

Selfless plug for MM...lol

Why are you in this conversation you don't have a boosted RX-8, there is a difference in principles and applied knowledge versus real world experiences and results. Not to mention your recommendations is actually in rather poor judgment without supporting claim.

I think thewird is trying to get safe, reliable tune with a good EMS, the AP just can't do it with the setup such as the esmeril kit.

That is not what the seller of the of the turbo kit (Esmeril Racing) thinks. He says the accessport is junk for a high boost RX-8 and would likely lead to motor blowing.

Also, using a MAP over a MAF is preferred in a turbo car for accurate tuning. So I sort of understand where he is coming from.

thewird

He is correct, and I would agree with you as well.



I don't completely agree. The MAF tuning vs MAP tuning is undebatable (sp?). Both systems have got their pros and cons like everything in life, our MAF has got some scaling limits though but i don't think that those will be reached with the airflow you're going to see.
The real junk piece should be the microtech computer inside the interceptor-x in case, i'd rather rely on a motec or a haltec for that same purpose. 2 different worlds imho.
The problem is that MAF tuning requires an accurate sensor position, be it blow or draw through you need a straight tube of the correct lenght\angle capable to feed the MAF with straight airflow. Something the esmeril kit isn't famous for and the reason why (i think ) it adopted the int-x (the only cheap alternative to serious stand-alones).

Giorgio

He says the accessport is junk for a high boost RX-8 and would likely lead to motor blowing.

lol


Also, using a MAP over a MAF is preferred in a turbo car for accurate tuning. So I sort of understand where he is coming from.

:rofl:

He is correct, and I would agree with you as well. :yelrotflm:rofl::lol::lol::knob:

I don't completely agree. The MAF tuning vs MAP tuning is undebatable (sp?). Both systems have got their pros and cons like everything in life, our MAF has got some scaling limits though but i don't think that those will be reached with the airflow you're going to see.
The real junk piece should be the microtech computer inside the interceptor-x in case, i'd rather rely on a motec or a haltec for that same purpose. 2 different worlds imho.
The problem is that MAF tuning requires an accurate sensor position, be it blow or draw through you need a straight tube of the correct lenght\angle capable to feed the MAF with straight airflow. Something the esmeril kit isn't famous for and the reason why (i think ) it adopted the int-x (the only cheap alternative to serious stand-alones).

Giorgio

Believe it or not I am actually using both right now the AP and INT-X with some good results.

I am quite certain that if Chris really WANTED the Esmeril kit to work with the Cobb AP that Jeff could help him be successful with it. All this bullshit is never a matter of objective logic, anyway. It is largely one of a given tuner's preference.

Selfless plug for MM...lol

Why are you in this conversation you don't have a boosted RX-8, there is a difference in principles and applied knowledge versus real world experiences and results. Not to mention your recommendations is actually in rather poor judgment without supporting claim.


Selfless plug for MM,, Not at all. He pay's me rather well.

What's the matter Brice? Having a bad day?
And why are you in this conversation? You know nothing about tuning.
Which is evident by the last Turbo Fluid installed on one of your customers cars?

Oh look your selling the Turbo parts for the customer.
LINK (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=181851)

Oh look supporting claim.

Here is an Accessport customer with the MM Turbo Upgrade and pushing lot's of reliable power and torque. selfless plug for Chickenwafer.
330rwhp and 326ft-lbs of torque @ 13.5psi!!
Tuned with an AccessPort.

LINK (http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=3196741&postcount=142)

Now go butter someones buns Brice and sell another turbo kit. You pusillanimous twit.

You pusillanimous twit.

lol
I luvz me sum $5 words!

Easy not all of his turbos have blown.
You forgot 05rex8 who has Fluids Greddy Turbo Upgrade...
then again, he didn't even make 300HP with it, not even close.
Heck, in this thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=180037&page=8) he states he's already thinking about changing it and going with a different (better) upgraded turbo.
Guess Brice knows nothing about turbo's either

Selfless plug for MM,, Not at all. He pay's me rather well.

What's the matter Brice? Having a bad day?
And why are you in this conversation? You know nothing about tuning.
Which is evident by the last Turbo Fluid installed on one of your customers cars?

Oh look your selling the Turbo parts for the customer.
LINK (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=181851)

Oh look supporting claim.

Here is an Accessport customer with the MM Turbo Upgrade and pushing lot's of reliable power and torque. selfless plug for Chickenwafer.
330rwhp and 326ft-lbs of torque @ 13.5psi!!
Tuned with an AccessPort.

LINK (http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=3196741&postcount=142)

Now go butter someones buns Brice and sell another turbo kit. You pusillanimous twit.

You really are a dumb shit. We never even got a chance to tune the car. Once we got it in the car in our hands and after the installation had been completed a compression test was completed by us and the customers car was on the verge of going out so the customer made the decision to part out and get rid of the RX-8.

The sad thing is a week before he had the installation completed the car was at Mazda for engine diagnosis....

But you already know the whole back story you schmuck.

Easy not all of his turbos have blown.
You forgot 05rex8 who has Fluids Greddy Turbo Upgrade...
then again, he didn't even make 300HP with it, not even close.
Heck, in this thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=180037&page=8) he states he's already thinking about changing it and going with a different (better) upgraded turbo.
Guess Brice knows nothing about turbo's either

Not to engage into further debate but we werent even there for tuning...the tune if I am not mistaken had been completed by MM with his E-Tune services.

And by the way none of our turbos have blown.

I'm taking under the assumption that the oil metering pump is still controlled by the stock computer with the Interceptor-X/Microtech. If so is there anyway to increase the oil metering pump voltage then?

I'm wondering because I would think a little more oil would be required with a turbo engine then the stock N/A. Anyone have any ideas?

thewird

Despite all the nonsense and drama, if you would like any help or advice on this feel free to PM myself, Easy_E1, MazdaManiac, or Flashwing and we would be more than happy to share our opinons with you. BHR has a long history of helping out other professionals to have the best outcomes possible with their installation and/or tuning jobs as well as a long roster of references. We have our opinions, others have theirs, and you can decide for yourself which is the more comfortable route for you.

Easy not all of his turbos have blown.
You forgot 05rex8 who has Fluids Greddy Turbo Upgrade...
then again, he didn't even make 300HP with it, not even close.
Heck, in this thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=180037&page=8) he states he's already thinking about changing it and going with a different (better) upgraded turbo.
Guess Brice knows nothing about turbo's either
Ok I need to clear some things up here.

First of all, 284rwhp is not that far from 300rwhp.

Also, if you keep reading that thread you linked, Brettus gave me a suggestion in order to work the kinks out of my current setup. This was something I over looked and is not Brice's fault. So I apologize if it looked like I felt I got ripped off. I probably should not have worded things that way to begin with, just some frustration coming thru in my post. I've had so many headaches with this car in the past year because of FI. In fact I have edited that post, as it was not accurate.

The greddy actuator is garbage for an upgraded turbo. Plain and simple. The upgraded turbo Brice offers is a decent alternative over the stock unit. According to Bryan at BNR it is a great compressor wheel. However the wg actuator needs work, which again I overlooked and was not his fault.

Brice, again, I apologize for that post. It was my bad since I didn't research fully.

sorry for the threadjack

wow - this thread delivers LOL .
So you are parting out your car 05rex8 ? That is two in the last week that fitted a turbo only to part out shortly thereafter . It's a very common story on here .

wow - this thread delivers LOL .
So you are parting out your car 05rex8 ? That is two in the last week that fitted a turbo only to part out shortly thereafter . It's a very common story on here .
heck no
my turbo feels great on the street as is. 259 tq at the wheels isn't that bad ;)
I just need to modify the w/g actuator arm like you advised yet. Then I will go back to the dyno. :)

/\ I thought Fluid was refering to you .
Good to hear you are still going forward . Let me know if you need any help with getting your boost control sorted - I've tried lots of different stuff to get a decent result with that actuator.

/\ I thought Fluid was refering to you .
Good to hear you are still going forward . Let me know if you need any help with getting your boost control sorted - I've tried lots of different stuff to get a decent result with that actuator.
no sir, must have been a local to him

I shall try your suggestion with the actuator arm and go from there. Keep your pm box open. :)

Is it normal for a battle and spinoffs to ensue when someone is trying to get technical info (preferably unbiased) lol.

I understand a blow-through MAF is possible, the same can be said about a blow-through carburetor in front of a turbo. Now which is the more correct way to go about it. With a MAP, you know what timing and fuel happens at a given PSi level vs RPM. In my opinion it is the more ideal setup for high horsepower applications but I won't mind hearing other side of the table.

Food for thought. A GM 3bar map sensor costs $60 on ebay new and all you need to do to hook it up is a vacuum line and plug it into the ECU. How much would a comparable MAF cost to buy and then install. Also, with a MAF, BOV air must be re-routed back into the intake after the MAF. See where I'm going with this?

thewird

12psi at 20deg. C is not the same as 12psi at 50 deg.C . See where i'm going with that ?

That's what air correction tables are for?

thewird

Is it normal for a battle and spinoffs to ensue when someone is trying to get technical info (preferably unbiased) lol.

I understand a blow-through MAF is possible, the same can be said about a blow-through carburetor in front of a turbo. Now which is the more correct way to go about it. With a MAP, you know what timing and fuel happens at a given PSi level vs RPM. In my opinion it is the more ideal setup for high horsepower applications but I won't mind hearing other side of the table.

Food for thought. A GM 3bar map sensor costs $60 on ebay new and all you need to do to hook it up is a vacuum line and plug it into the ECU. How much would a comparable MAF cost to buy and then install. Also, with a MAF, BOV air must be re-routed back into the intake after the MAF. See where I'm going with this?

thewird


Many of we vendors are pretty passionate about what we do so these dust-ups happen from time to time. We try not to take them personally and when meet up with each other you'd never know that we had previous arguments going on.

As for "unbiased" opinions; there is a theory that lack of bias is impossible but I suppose the closest one can come to that is making sure that the advice-giver can articulate for you why they prefer their particular approach. There are plenty of people who have enough experience with many different methods of tuning, be they EMS's, reflash tools, or what have you, but getting them to explain their reasoning isn't often easy.

A carb installed in "in front" of a turbo is a "draw-through" set up while a turbo installed before the carb is a "blow-through" design. Further, the bowl vents on a carburetor serve a very important function in a blow-though set up that make it a bit easier than dealing with blow-through MAF set ups.

Because of all this, there is no "correct" way to go about it. Just like I said previously, it is often a matter of personal preference.

I suppose the first two questions that need to be asked are; 1) What is your ultimate power goal, realistically? 2) With which method are you more comfortable?

If your power goals are modest, that can heavily influence the idea of keeping things simple.

1) I want whatever 12 PSi will give on that turbo so the car can be delivered to the owner as he has been without his car for 2 or 3 months, due to parts delays etc. I'm aiming for a reliable car as opposed to one thats on the edge like mine so my interest in horsepower stops at giving the owner a dyno sheet.

2) I feel more comfortable with a MAP based setup as that is what I have always tuned with and enjoy making cars run as close to stock as is possible with a given setup. Even if I have to spend days on a car to get it right.

I feel at somepoint the owner will want more as he didn't seem to like the 12 PSi idea to begin with as Esmeril advertises 414 rwhp @ 16 PSi with their coils (what do coils have to do with horsepower but alas lol. yes I know the RX-8 coils are weak and it is a good upgrade but they advertise it as if the coils is what makes the power). But he agreed to start with this for now and then get back to that point once he has had the car for a bit.

thewird

1) I want whatever 12 PSi will give on that turbo so the car can be delivered to the owner as he has been without his car for 2 or 3 months, due to parts delays etc. I'm aiming for a reliable car as opposed to one thats on the edge like mine so my interest in horsepower stops at giving the owner a dyno sheet.

2) I feel more comfortable with a MAP based setup as that is what I have always tuned with and enjoy making cars run as close to stock as is possible with a given setup. Even if I have to spend days on a car to get it right.

I feel at somepoint the owner will want more as he didn't seem to like the 12 PSi idea to begin with as Esmeril advertises 414 rwhp @ 16 PSi with their coils (what do coils have to do with horsepower but alas lol. yes I know the RX-8 coils are weak and it is a good upgrade but they advertise it as if the coils is what makes the power). But he agreed to start with this for now and then get back to that point once he has had the car for a bit.

thewird


12 PSI, manifold, is becoming more and more common with the RX-8 and they are often doing it with a factory MAF sensor set up. This is where reflashing is a strong tool. When you look at how often the real-world driver is in boost it is a mere percentage of drive time. Especially as it concerns idle quality and throttle transitions (what we at BHR call "driveability"). The MAF sensor will certainly measure that amount of airflow. BTW, you may want to consider embracing the idea of thinking of all this in terms of mass-airflow rather than manifold boost. It makes many things far easier to compare and consider.

Since the RX-8 is a MAF system, switching to a MAP system can be complicated without any equal payoff.

In the next paragraph what I see is a conflict between your views on realistic power and what your customer's views on realistic power might be. When getting near 400 h.p. there are all SORTS of things that need to be uppgraded in the name of reliability/durability.

I am glad you customer at least agrees to start at lower power levels and then to pursue higher levels later.

As for what coils have to do with it; that is a whole other talk show but they do make a difference, even in N/A applications, and especially when we get to 8 psi or MAF values near 300 gms./sec.

That's what air correction tables are for?

thewird

The inter-x is known to have very poor temperature correction . Early users were constantly changing tunes depending on atmospheric conditions .

The inter-x is known to have very poor temperature correction . Early users were constantly changing tunes depending on atmospheric conditions .

That drove Jeff NUTS when trying to tune Phil's S/C with the Int-X. Plus, the idle had to be set quite rich, IIRC. He did manage to get T-Diddy's engine with the PTP turbo kit to run pretty darned nice with the Int-X but Tommy has less climatic/altitude changes to tune around.

I have never had an issue making a car run like stock on a MAP sensor. When my car was tuned many moons ago by a "professional" tuner from from the states I hated the way it drived. It bucked in random places, wouldn't respond instantly, ran rich, and overall was just a poor drive. Because of this I started tuning my car and found its actually very easy to make it drive smooth and respond instantly on throttle. Maybe you had a similar experience and is influencing your decision. Anyway, I really didn't want to turn this into a MAF vs MAP debate lol.

I understand the need to upgrade other things when you demand more horses out of a car quite well. I have gone through that process with my car and still is going on an ongoing basis.

My point about the coils was that it wasn't the coils themselves that made the power. As long as you have a properly functioning ignition setup that is smooth all the way to redline on the dyno for example, going to stronger coils, isn't going to make more power. Like I said, yes its a good upgrade as the the oem rx8 coils are weak but it was just the way they advertised it that bothered me. They should have advertised it as keeping your rx8 from misfiring (can't remember if this is the correct term, its when your HP is jumping on the dyno instead of being smooth)

thewird

The inter-x is known to have very poor temperature correction . Early users were constantly changing tunes depending on atmospheric conditions .
Don't think its a problem with the Microtech specifically. The ECU only does what you tell it too. If you tell it to do the wrong thing, its not going to do the right thing on its own. I find that AIT temp correction tables are more or less close between cars and don't really need much tweaking once its set correctly.

Also, a MAF based FI system doesn't eliminate the need for AIT correction table.

thewird

On another note, I've been thinking about making a PowerFC harness for the RX-8 as that is a MUCH cheaper option and comes with a commander to view live data. The PowerFC has a lot more drivability features then the Microtech. I just find the Microtech too simple in some regards and the fact that you cant save a map or copy and paste data is retarded.

thewird

Don't think its a problem with the Microtech specifically. The ECU only does what you tell it too. If you tell it to do the wrong thing, its not going to do the right thing on its own. I find that AIT temp correction tables are more or less close between cars and don't really need much tweaking once its set correctly.

Also, a MAF based FI system doesn't eliminate the need for AIT correction table.

thewird

If so you have done better than anyone else has with the X (that i've heard about) . I remember having a conversation with Scott from Mazsport about this . He said at the time that the scale for AIT correction was too course and offered to fix it so perhaps it can be overcome if you know what parts to replace .

Yes there is a correction table in the stock software for AIT - seems to work well .

If so you have done better than anyone else has with the X (that i've heard about)

Yes there is a correction table in the stock software for AIT - seems to work well .
The car runs very smooth so far and is pretty consistent both hot during the day and late at night when its cold (I've taken the car home with me a few times). This is with the stock values in the Microtech. I haven't really looked into it much as I was spending most of my time with staging the injectors. When I get closer to a complete tune, I will start looking into those correction tables.

So what was your point of adding the temperature debate? If the stock AIT values didn't work well with stock components I would be worried for all RX-8's.

thewird

Hmm, now that I think about it, the stock Microtech AIT table was a flat line. Might explain why a few people had issues as you would need to make your own table from scratch.

thewird

When I had the int-x, it was setup with the base tune that Scott had developed over dozens of RX-8's. It still had variations in AFR values going from winter to summer. Some people use two maps to help with the transition.

There is no way the microtech can come close to the accessport if you want OEM like drivability.

I have to disagree with that statement. Drivability has nothing to do with the ECU used but rather with the tuners familiarity with the ECU and desire to make a car he does not own run smooth. This is actually the reason I started tuning other peoples cars in the first place. I was literally disgusted with the drivability this tuner from the States left peoples cars with. My main priority when tuning is making the car run smooth and near stock. Making power is easy, making a are drivable is the real hard part.

I'm not sure who Scott is but if its the base map thats on the Microtech, the air temp correction table is a flat line.

thewird

I have to disagree with that statement. Drivability has nothing to do with the ECU used but rather with the tuners familiarity with the ECU and desire to make a car he does not own run smooth.

Nope.

The analog world in which we live has a continuous gradient for pressure, temperature, mass and volume.
The most appropriate tool will have the greatest resolution for determining where on that gradient the motor lies at any given moment.
The Microtech has very, very, very low resolution. Therefore, to get get maximum drivability, you make the maximum compromise with the device with the minimum resolution.
Human beings - while quite variable - are very sensitive to changes in the gradient. If you make these kinds of compromises, the driver will notice. Some much more than others.
If you just want to go thump, the Microtech will work. Anything finer than that and you must use a better tool.
There is NO tool with finer resolution than the factory ECU. It exceeds the granularity of ALL aftermarket stand-alone devices. (That is not to say that its utility is greater than a Haltech, for instance. Just that it measures that gradient with greater resolution.)

You really are a dumb shit.

Me thinks "pusillanimous" went completely over someone's head.

Here Brice,,,, YOU DUMB SHIT!

dictionary.reference.com/browse/pusillanimous (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pusillanimous)

I'm sure 99% of the people on this forum didn't know what that word meant. Myself included. :)

thanks for the link tho, lmao.

I'm sure 99% of the people on this forum didn't know what that word meant. Myself included. :)

thanks for the link tho, lmao.

I figured as much. Hence the link. I like to use it in special cases.

Nope.

The analog world in which we live has a continuous gradient for pressure, temperature, mass and volume.
The most appropriate tool will have the greatest resolution for determining where on that gradient the motor lies at any given moment.
The Microtech has very, very, very low resolution. Therefore, to get get maximum drivability, you make the maximum compromise with the device with the minimum resolution.
Human beings - while quite variable - are very sensitive to changes in the gradient. If you make these kinds of compromises, the driver will notice. Some much more than others.
If you just want to go thump, the Microtech will work. Anything finer than that and you must use a better tool.
There is NO tool with finer resolution than the factory ECU. It exceeds the granularity of ALL aftermarket stand-alone devices. (That is not to say that its utility is greater than a Haltech, for instance. Just that it measures that gradient with greater resolution.)
This says nothing? The factory ECU is actually very primitive lol. Resolution doesn't actually mean anything. I actually think the Haltech is retarded for having such high resolution as its completely unnecessary. Interpolation just averages the cells and if its tuned properly AFR's are smooth as silk.

I get the feeling some people posting here don't know what they are talking about or are blindly promoting something >_>

thewird

This says nothing? The factory ECU is actually very primitive lol. Resolution doesn't actually mean anything. I actually think the Haltech is retarded for having such high resolution as its completely unnecessary. Interpolation just averages the cells and if its tuned properly AFR's are smooth as silk.

I get the feeling some people posting here don't know what they are talking about or are blindly promoting something >_>

thewird

Wow. OK.
I won't bother. Hopefully, no one is taking you too seriously, then.

Great end to a thread. Thanks to all that posted useful information. Someone needs to look deeper into what is actually involved in the stock computer.

thewird

Did you come here to ask for some informations or to teach us how to tune?
Reading your posts it sounds like you're just encouraging the use of the microtech without really asking for some help.

Now again, since your poor customer could turn out to be an unfortunate victim of some thread mayhem: what do you need? Provided that the microtech is a pretty primitive ecu, how wold you like to reach your goals?
This could help giving plain answers.

Giorgio

Ok I need to clear some things up here.

First of all, 284rwhp is not that far from 300rwhp.

Also, if you keep reading that thread you linked, Brettus gave me a suggestion in order to work the kinks out of my current setup. This was something I over looked and is not Brice's fault. So I apologize if it looked like I felt I got ripped off. I probably should not have worded things that way to begin with, just some frustration coming thru in my post. I've had so many headaches with this car in the past year because of FI. In fact I have edited that post, as it was not accurate.

The greddy actuator is garbage for an upgraded turbo. Plain and simple. The upgraded turbo Brice offers is a decent alternative over the stock unit. According to Bryan at BNR it is a great compressor wheel. However the wg actuator needs work, which again I overlooked and was not his fault.

Brice, again, I apologize for that post. It was my bad since I didn't research fully.

sorry for the threadjack

Hey no problem, I was going to make a comment in that thread but it would have been in the same context as yours...not fully thought through and out of disappointment/anger or whatever you call it.

All good :)

/\ I thought Fluid was refering to you .
Good to hear you are still going forward . Let me know if you need any help with getting your boost control sorted - I've tried lots of different stuff to get a decent result with that actuator.

No it is a local.

Zeon if anyone is curious, really never posted much but yeah really shitty situation for what happened. But things like that happen I guess.

The premise of this thread was loaded with irony and destined to the current conclusion.

The premise of this thread was loaded with irony and destined to the current conclusion.

Yes, persistant ignorance is something hard to fight. I guess that keeping a standpoint in tuning would be like keeping one in medicine... technology does change and calling something like the stock ecu "not advanced" looks much like talking about the 8bit rx7 ecus.

Did you come here to ask for some informations or to teach us how to tune?
Reading your posts it sounds like you're just encouraging the use of the microtech without really asking for some help.

Now again, since your poor customer could turn out to be an unfortunate victim of some thread mayhem: what do you need? Provided that the microtech is a pretty primitive ecu, how wold you like to reach your goals?
This could help giving plain answers.

Giorgio
I'm not encouraging anyone to use the Microtech ECU's. It was merely suggested that reflashing the stock ECU is the BEST tuning method when in actuality it really isn't as that highly depends on application. Still running an N/A RX-8, sure reflashing would probably be the best way to go about it. Add turbo and looking for a high performance, it no longer becomes the best method.

Yes, the Microtech is probably one of the most simple standalones out there but it is preferred by many tuners out there. It is especially often used in 20b applications.

Anyway, I already got what I needed out of this thread on the first page. Everything after has just been completely off-topic and full of biased opinions. Would appreciate if the bickering stopped as well.

thewird

I'm not encouraging anyone to use the Microtech ECU's. It was merely suggested that reflashing the stock ECU is the BEST tuning method when in actuality it really isn't as that highly depends on application. Still running an N/A RX-8, sure reflashing would probably be the best way to go about it. Add turbo and looking for a high performance, it no longer becomes the best method.

Yes, the Microtech is probably one of the most simple standalones out there but it is preferred by many tuners out there. It is especially often used in 20b applications.

Anyway, I already got what I needed out of this thread on the first page. Everything after has just been completely off-topic and full of biased opinions. Would appreciate if the bickering stopped as well.

thewird

Hence my observation of the irony in the first post.

Someone needs to look deeper into what is actually involved in the stock computer.


And that would be you.

I really hope that you aren't suggesting that a 16x16 or even 32x32 fuel table referenced to MAP is "higher resolution" than a fuel table for each gear, overlayed by a Ve table for the motor, overlayed by an absolute throttle position table, overlayed by tables for IAT, ECT and BARO, overlayed by an RPM delta table, all referenced to absolute air mass.

And that would be you.

I really hope that you aren't suggesting that a 16x16 or even 32x32 fuel table referenced to MAP is "higher resolution" than a fuel table for each gear, overlayed by a Ve table for the motor, overlayed by an absolute throttle position table, overlayed by tables for IAT, ECT and BARO, overlayed by an RPM delta table, all referenced to absolute air mass.

Key word being "overlayed".
MM, I am ready to go back to a Tascam 488 MkII. Are you?

I am no longer responding to this thread unless its something about oil metering.

edit: I realized I'm getting caught up in your bickering, so only going to care about direct technical information.

thewird

I'm not encouraging anyone to use the Microtech ECU's. It was merely suggested that reflashing the stock ECU is the BEST tuning method when in actuality it really isn't as that highly depends on application. Still running an N/A RX-8, sure reflashing would probably be the best way to go about it. Add turbo and looking for a high performance, it no longer becomes the best method.

Yes, the Microtech is probably one of the most simple standalones out there but it is preferred by many tuners out there. It is especially often used in 20b applications.

Anyway, I already got what I needed out of this thread on the first page. Everything after has just been completely off-topic and full of biased opinions. Would appreciate if the bickering stopped as well.

thewird

I understand your point but i have to disagree.
Add a turbo with a properly mounted MAF and the stock ecu can handle it. For sure you can't scale the MAF up to infinite but up to today there's probably no system topping over the MAF's capabilites.
I think that the first Standalone comparable to our stock ecu is the motec m600 with some add-ons. It would be a fair battle between the two imho.

The problem is that the discussion got trapped in "general" for this car while you were probably referring to your kit (esmeril), already well known for not being that much maf friendly because of the maf's location!
Saying that the accessport or any other stock ecu flasher is junk just because in your configuration is not optimal is not fair.
Said that, i will use an accessport to tune my car with a pretty good turbo as well and believe me i've done my homework!

Here, searching a bit, you can find some screenshot of the Hymee's protuner. That could give you a base idea of what the stock ecu can handle.

I am no longer responding to this thread unless its something about oil metering.

thewird

You're only talking to yourself now, bse50.

Yep, guess so. He replied while i was still writing :)

Angry with me Charles?

OK then -
The OMP is a stepper motor. It is not voltage controlled.
Your Microtech does not have the ability to control it.
Then again, neither does the Haltech or Motech because their stepper outs can't deliver the PW that the Mikuni requires.

OK then -
The OMP is a stepper motor. It is not voltage controlled.
Your Microtech does not have the ability to control it.
Then again, neither does the Haltech or Motech because their stepper outs can't deliver the PW that the Mikuni requires.
Thank you. So the only solution to modify this is with the accessport then or to premix.

thewird

Thank you. So the only solution to modify this is with the accessport then or to premix.

thewird

Or build a stepper motor controller.
Of course, the PCM will freak and attempt a limp mode, but if you are using an external computer for fuel and spark, that won't matter.

Or build a stepper motor controller.
Of course, the PCM will freak and attempt a limp mode, but if you are using an external computer for fuel and spark, that won't matter.
That would be a neat thing to try if this was my car but since it belongs to someone that I might never see again after I'm done with it I have to keep tweaks with what should be reliable instead of experimenting. Too bad the Microtech doesn't have this programmed in as it would be useful.

thewird

I predict you will see them again next time the weather turns LOL

I predict you will see them again next time the weather turns LOL
I'd hope for a different reason then your suggesting though. :scared:

I'm fairly confident that the Microtech can control the temperature changes correctly as the AIT sensor seems to respond pretty well to temperature change. I've been taking it home so have experienced both hot and cold weather as well as a really humid day we had today. A computer will only perform as good as what you tell it to do. Anyway, we will see, the car should be done this week.

thewird

Well if you succeed my hat goes off to you ...

I'm fairly confident that the Microtech can control the temperature changes correctly as the AIT sensor seems to respond pretty well to temperature change.

If you shoot for the middle (running crappy everywhere), it won't be as big of a deal. lol

If you shoot for the middle (running crappy everywhere), it won't be as big of a deal. lol
What do you mean?

thewird

What do you mean?




Just stupid rich everywhere. Especially in cruise, idle and transition.

Essentially, if you set the idle to anything leaner than 12.7:1, it won't idle once the baro, ambient temp or humidity changes.
The IAT table doesn't have nearly the granularity to be useful and the fixed data points are too far apart.
Same goes for ECT.

Sigh...

thewird

Let's put it this way; if you are able to get the Microtech to work with the RX-8 in a fashion other than what MazdaManiac describes either you are a WAY better tuner than he and Scott Glassburn or Mazsport fucked up the Microtech when they modified it and sold it as the "Interceptor-X".

That's how it has been for years around here and if you can do better than you will have a LOT of customers coming your way for new Microtech/Int-X tunes and the rest of us shall applaud and support you.

Well that puts it better, we will see then.

thewird

Good luck and I am sure you will have a lot of people anxious to hear about your discoveries and results. :)
Are you aware of the manner in which it is said that Mazsport modified the Microtech? That info may help you along.

I didn't really look into it. My understanding is the Microtech has complete control of fuel and timing and the stock PCM controls the rest. Is that correct?

thewird

It should be pretty much it. I don't remember if you can tune the ignition split as well with the microtech. That's a key feature for a rotary pcm.

We first have to distinguish whether you plan on using an unmolested Microtech or plan on using an Interceptor-X. Scott made some internal changes, from what my partner MazdaManiac has told me, and rewired the Microtech so as to turn it into the "Interceptor-X". Once we establish which unit you will be using we can move the conversation forward a bit.

Yes, you can tune the split, however, only by RPM and not load which was a little unfortunate as I like giving it less split at vacuum/low boost levels.

It is the Interceptor-X as it has the Mazsport badging and such. I just refer to it as the Microtech because you use the same software and its pretty much the same as far as I can tell. To be honest, I thought the only thing involved in the Interceptor-X was the patch harness that wired into the stock PCM.

thewird

It is my understanding, and I am sure MM will correct me if I am wrong, that Mazsport internally changed the injector staging or something. I do remember MM being a bit frustrated in his tuning of Phil's (Phil's 8) and Tommy's (T-Diddy) cars, although his outcome with Tommy's car was much better than Phil's car. Tommy is turbo'd and Phil is supercharged.

That might be the Aux output (sequential+Aux) for secondary injectors that the unit came with as default. Which basically is a fuel table that ONLY controls the secondary injectors. Supposedly to make the car transition smoother.

However, I disabled this and set it back to sequential so the staging now works as Microtech designed it as I didn't think having 2 separate fuel tables controlling primaries and secondaries was the correct way to go about it.

I'm not sure if this is what MM was referring to though.

thewird

You may be correct about that and I am sure that once he has a chance, MM will jump in and clear up any errors I may have made. I have to log-off in a minute and hit the road for a couple hours so I will catch ya in a bit.......

Both you guys are tuners. I am just the idiot in BHR who tries to turn the team's ideas into reality. :lol2:

That might be the Aux output (sequential+Aux) for secondary injectors that the unit came with as default. Which basically is a fuel table that ONLY controls the secondary injectors. Supposedly to make the car transition smoother.

However, I disabled this and set it back to sequential so the staging now works as Microtech designed it as I didn't think having 2 separate fuel tables controlling primaries and secondaries was the correct way to go about it.

I'm not sure if this is what MM was referring to though.

thewird

and what does that have to to with the omp?

was that not the point and what you laid down the law about?

how did this turn into tuning camp?

maybe start a thread on how to tune with a microtech lt-10.

beers :beer:

My car ran well using the AP to control the idle, OMP volumes, and the CELs created by the Int-X. The Int-X controls the fuel & timing. The reason for my ECU setup is that I have a top mount T4 turbo kit which doesn't allow for proper MAF mounting. It was designed to work with a MAP based system.

The temp problems can somewhat be overcome by wiring a GM Air Temp sensor into the Int-X and registering the charge temps with it. The only way to overcome the OMP is to reflash or to remove it and premix. The injector staging is different with the Int-X but it sounds like you have that worked out.

It seems like you know what your goal is so keep up the good work. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Indeed. I prefer the compressed air method like McDonald's uses on their chickens.

OK then -
The OMP is a stepper motor. It is not voltage controlled.
Your Microtech does not have the ability to control it.
Then again, neither does the Haltech or Motech because their stepper outs can't deliver the PW that the Mikuni requires.

What makes the S1/S2 OMP different from the S5-S8 RX-7 OMP's? AFAIK, the MoTeC's could run the RX-7 Electronic OMP's.

If you read back, i believe it stated that you can change omp using voltage on RX7 but RX8 OMP is controlled by a stepper motor and is untunable using this method.

Just info gathered from this thread

The wird is that he went back to RX7Club with his tail between his legs ... you will probably be the same with that pre-RX8/Renesis mentality

The MoTeC can run the S1 Renesis MOP too, it still has nothing much in common with the earlier version