I'd like to get some opinions, esp. comparative opinions from those that have used different R-Comps on an RX-8 on a race track, not autocross. There doesn't seem to be any thread dealing with track worthiness opinions of different R-Comp and perhaps even more to the point, factual data collected with track data aquisition devices. from people using R-Comps.

Autocross use of R-Comps is another topic, mostly because the performance requirements seem to be at odds with regular race track use, so I'd like to confine this to track use.

Since 2007, I've had two sets of Nitto NT-01s after switching from U-high Perf steet tires (RT-615s). I've found no down side with the exception of rain use - dont'. I find it impossible to overdrive them or overheating them. Their 'best operating temp' is around 160-200 degrees, I can produce perhaps 165 degrees in adv or adv-interm run groups. I've not run out of grip, haven't spun or found any bad behavior... not really noisy in any bad way, wear well, take punishment uneven wear, plus they are comfortable and useable for extended street driving.

Still, obviously there is other rubber out there, Toyo RA1s, Toya R888s, Hoosier R6s, BFG g-Force R1s, and then the Yoko AO48s, Miichelin Pilot Sport Cups, and various Kumhos.

There are performance metrics to classifing tires like wear rating and various point classifications...but it becomes more like vodoo magic getting real world objective information because.... of the multitude of car setups, wheel widths, tire widths, car weights and handling characterisitics, plus intented use and wear expectations. Point being, that what a Porsche or BMW driver says works great, may not for an RX-8. I've seen and talked to many track addicts about their choices and their opinions, but rarely have I been able to get other RX-8 driver's opinions, simply because there are not enough 8s out there.

So, after hundreds of track and street miles, I'm in the market to replace my worn 255/40-17 NT-01s on 9" wheels and am having a hell of time deciding; namely something in either same size for the 17"x9"s or perhaps 265/35-18 on some Enkei 18x9.5 I have... And I don't feel just fitting the biggest tire I can is the best choice. I'm interested in the wholistic 'best", a combo of grip, weight, speed, gearing advantage and handling at the limit.

Other Choices: - NT-01s again...

or some R888s - they seem to be getting good reviews with only negatives they may get greasy when hot, they are expensive, they are noisy on the highway (if you use them like that).

or some BFG g-Force R1s - they get great reviews, even Tire Rack says they are grippier than R6s, seem to wear ok, and cost like R888s, not too noisy, but not so good for street use

or the others, from what I perceive to be the case - R6s are too expensive, appear to wear quickly, unevenly, definitely not for the street, seemingly too hard core for HPDE use; same for Kumho; Pilot Sport Cups appear dated, good but not outstanding performance, too expensive, seem to me Michelin has just stopped developing R-Comps for some reason; Pirelli - who?

I may be all wet on these last opinions, but aside from Hooisers that are seemingly for those with unlimited budgets and a track trailer, the sweet spot seems to be in the NT-01, R888s, RA1s, BFG R1s.

So anyone? Any opinions after having used those or the others mentioned if it's the case I've got it all wrong on those? :)

BTW pls don't tell me I don't need R-Comps for HPDEs, I simply want to use them.

So tell me your gripping track stories :)

You can cut out all the "vodoo" by simply looking at race results. :dunno: Nearly every amateur RX-8 road racing win, SCCA Runoffs or NASA natls has come on Hoosiers, and the fast guys run the A6.

Do you want to go as fast as you can, or want a tire that will last?

Like you I started with the RT-615's, I actually bought them used off of you, lol. I used them for my first 4 track events and then decided to follow you with the switch to 17x9's and the NT-01's. I've used the NT-01's for my last 2 track weekends and couldn't be happier with them. I've got about 18 sessions on them and the wear is very minimal, I did swap them side to side to ensure even wear. I think they are really well suited to the 8. They give me all the grip I could ever need at my level and are very confidence inspiring. It was in the upper 80's for track temps this weekend at Barber and I had no issues whatsoever. I really like the gearing of the 17x9 and 255 combo for the tracks around me, it gives me the little extra oomph I need in 4th. For ~$170 a tire the NT-01's can't be beat. I thank you for suggesting both the NT-01's and the Cobalt Friction GT Sport pads(6 events and 5,000 street miles and never a hint of fade.)

For the wet I used my 265 RE01-R's on my 18x9.5's which were awesome in the wet at Road Atlanta. Rain is so much fun cause the Z06's just can't keep up :)

One of my friends is running the R888's and will not be running them again after his experience with them. He has a couple more sessions than I do on them and one of the tires is already corded and the wear on them is much more severe than the NT-01's. They definitely don't seem to take the heat as well.

P.S. I was able to keep up with my buddy in his Noble M400 for most of a session by out braking and cornering him :)

You can cut out all the "vodoo" by simply looking at race results. :dunno: Nearly every amateur RX-8 road racing win, SCCA Runoffs or NASA natls has come on Hoosiers, and the fast guys run the A6.

Do you want to go as fast as you can, or want a tire that will last?

Yeahbut...those are an "autocross" compound...they can't work on a road course... ;)

Actually, the old Hoosier autocross tires did overheat and even chunk under certain circumstances on road course, the new ones are amazing in comparison. You hit the nail on the head: do you want to go as fast as you can for 25-35 minutes or do you want to have a set of tires that will last for a few weekends? For those running competitive events, the A6 is the ticket, but for those that are doing lapping days, I wouldn't think the extra cost (as a result of wear) would be justified...

Yeahbut...those are an "autocross" compound...they can't work on a road course... ;)

Actually, the old Hoosier autocross tires did overheat and even chunk under certain circumstances on road course, the new ones are amazing in comparison. You hit the nail on the head: do you want to go as fast as you can for 25-35 minutes or do you want to have a set of tires that will last for a few weekends? For those running competitive events, the A6 is the ticket, but for those that are doing lapping days, I wouldn't think the extra cost (as a result of wear) would be justified...

Many of the A6 shod cars at the Runoffs corded the tires in that one race, but they went fast - some guys will do whatever it takes to win.

For track days I think I would go with the BFG R1. We have them on our SSC Nissan and they can take serious abuse. I also did one track day in the RX-8 on them - 265-35-18 on an 18x8.5 - a little slippery until they get some heat in them, but work great once warm and last a long time.

hey Peppy
Tires are like suspensions--actually they are part of the suspension but that is another story.
i have ran 17's and 18's, i have ran nittos, ra1's and the hoosier r6's.
The hoosiers were my favorite tires. they dont communicate with you and when they let go they let go but they have the grip and i found them to wear fine. if there is pronounced tire wear there usually is more to the story:)
the nittos and the ra's are about the same to me--i hear they have the same rubber compound.
They have less grip than the hoosiers. With the hoosiers i can run with the nanny full on without a problem--i cant with the others--they seem to have more slip angle. they are good tires with good grip, good life, good storage ability- that communicate well. great tires for hpde. but for all out grip the step up is noticeable.
Get a short light wheel tire combo.
olddragger

;)hey Peppy
Get a short light wheel tire combo.
olddragger

yea , hear you there.....I was amazed at some numbers I got this weekend weighing things...I'd forgot just how much weight can be cut with lightweight wheels/tires/rotors vs. stock.

An example:

stock 18"x8" wheels and 235/40/18 RT-615s = 45.2 lbs
18"X9.5" RPF1s w/245/40-18s = 41.6 lbs
17"x9" Hot Wheels w/245/45-17 NT-01s = 45.2 lbs
17"X9" RPF1s w/255/40-17 NT-01s = 39.6 lbs

So from stock to light 17s you can loose 5.5 lbs per wheel!

Then add the RP 2-pc rotors for another 4.4 lbs for a total of ~10lbs of unsprung weight off each side :lol: That's pretty good

for a 17x9 wheel do you prefer a 255 or a 265? Will be used for an even mix of track/autox

for a 17x9 wheel do you prefer a 255 or a 265? Will be used for an even mix of track/autox

Although it's generally the same for each tire, tire brands do vary, so I would go to the tire manufacturers web site (or Tirerack or wherever), find the specs for the different tire sizes and find sizes where the 'measured rim width' is the same as my rim width. That's the 'best compromise' size for handling and ride.

Usually there is another wheel width both narrower and wider that is shown as ok to use with that tire width. The wider size rim will give a bit tighter handling, sidewall stiffness and support and a stiffer ride, whereas the smaller rim will do the opposite, i.e., not such as good thing for ultimate performance.

I would always go with the recommended or wider rim for best performance. In the case you mention the 255 width is good (recommended) for a 9" wheel and as a benefit gives a slightly numerically higher gear ratio for a bit better acceleration compared to our stock 225/45-18. If it's for street use, then closer to stock diameter might be more suitable.

Check out the theoretical difference compared to oem sixe at http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

;)



An example:

stock 18"x8" wheels and 235/40/18 RT-615s = 45.2 lbs
18"X9.5" RPF1s w/245/40-18s = 34.8 lbs
17"x9" Hot Wheels w/245/45-17 NT-01s = 38.0 lbs
17"X9" RPF1s w/255/40-17 NT-01s = 33.4 lbs

So from stock to light 17s you can loose 11.8 lbs per wheel!
That's massive!

Spin are those numbers from you weighing them yourself? I haven't weighed my 17x9 RpF1's and 255 NT-01's but going by the listed weights, the tires are 26lbs and the wheels are 15.9lbs that adds up to 41.9lbs.

Although it's generally the same for each tire, tire brands do vary, so I would go to the tire manufacturers web site (or Tirerack or wherever), find the specs for the different tire sizes and find sizes where the 'measured rim width' is the same as my rim width. That's the 'best compromise' size for handling and ride.

Usually there is another wheel width both narrower and wider that is shown as ok to use with that tire width. The wider size rim will give a bit tighter handling, sidewall stiffness and support and a stiffer ride, whereas the smaller rim will do the opposite, i.e., not such as good thing for ultimate performance.

I would always go with the recommended or wider rim for best performance. In the case you mention the 255 width is good (recommended) for a 9" wheel and as a benefit gives a slightly numerically higher gear ratio for a bit better acceleration compared to our stock 225/45-18. If it's for street use, then closer to stock diameter might be more suitable.

Check out the theoretical difference compared to oem sixe at http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

Thanks for the info :icon_tup:

This setup will have NT-01's for track only, no street use. Just looked online and found nitto doesnt have a 265 tire haha. Recommended rim width for the 255 is 9", so that sounds good.

Spin are those numbers from you weighing them yourself? I haven't weighed my 17x9 RpF1's and 255 NT-01's but going by the listed weights, the tires are 26lbs and the wheels are 15.9lbs that adds up to 41.9lbs.

Good catch...those numbers did seem really light, but I know i double checked them...... still doing it again right now.....my freight scale must have been 'light-headed' that day...so I've corrected the numbers in the OP. The 41.9 lbs sounds about right for new NT-01 2455s on Enkeis, mine are well worn, I just have two grooves and a nice smooth race slick at this point!

I'm currently running the BFG R1's in 245/40/R18 size. These are my fist R comps so I can't compare them to other r comps. I've only done one track day with them but have been really impressed with them. They feel great, grip, wear well, and are predictable at the limits. I was able to take over 3.5 seconds off my lap times (on a 2 mile course) versus street tires.

...I thank you for suggesting both the NT-01's and the Cobalt Friction GT Sport pads(6 events and 5,000 street miles and never a hint of fade.)

One of my friends is running the R888's and will not be running them again after his experience with them. He has a couple more sessions than I do on them and one of the tires is already corded and the wear on them is much more severe than the NT-01's. They definitely don't seem to take the heat as well.

P.S. I was able to keep up with my buddy in his Noble M400 for most of a session by out braking and cornering him :)

...you're welcome :) BTW what run group are you in? IMO the Nittos, and speaking esp. the 255/40-17 on 9" wheels, make you feel (almost) invincible ;). They really do instill confidence driving on track. And the Cobalts means you can stop short of any car out there for sure!

Also, if you think they're sticky now after 4 track days, wait till you rub off those big tread blocks :naughty:, and the NT-01s 2nd personality comes out, smooth race rubber with just a couple circumferential groves. They may look worn out to the uninitiated, but they're actually just broken in. No :icon_bs: whenever I take an instructor out for some hotlaps, as soon as we're back in, they get out and immediately check out my slicks.

...interesting ummm....that's the 1st I've heard of peps being that unhappy with the R888s. Most of the forum talk is RA1 fans switching to R888s and they seem to think it an improvement? ..or something... hard to tell...or perhaps R888 simply aren't the best for how the RX-8s suspension setup. Hopefully others here have had some experience w/R888s and will chime in too. More data would be helpful.

I use Hankook Z214 C50s 245/40/17 at HPDEs. They are the only R-compounds I've ever used so the only thing I have to compare them against are Azenis RT615 street tires which as you might expect they are a great deal more sticky than the Azenis. I don't run them on the street except to the hotel at night or to the track when they are new. They work fine on the street as long as its dry. Not in the wet. I like em but as I say haven't compared them directly to another R-compound.

Spin I run DE2 solo with NASA. I'll see if I can get my friends with R888 and R1 experiences to chime in.

I like the NT01 :)

Howdy Spin... how the hell are ya?

I'm the guy Peppy is talking about that is running the R888's. MY previous tires were Toyo RA1's and I LOVED those tires. When I purchased them, I had them shaved to 3/32 and the first time was on track at Carolina Motorsport Park and I owned the track. I could go anywhere I wanted, inside, outside... didn't matter, they freaking gripped like crazy. I ran the crap out of those tires and they lasted me around 8 events. They died at Roebling Road as rubber gave way to the cords.

So, I figured I'd run the R888's since they were the replacements from Toyo. Alignment still the same and with unshaved 8's because that's what I was told to do, I ran them at TGPR in Alabama. One day of track on those tires and I hated them with tread. I could hardly stay on track. Had to slow down and I didn't like that. They should have been shaved. Also, I should never have run them on that track as it took WAY too much rubber off. Also, they did not wear as even as the RA1's did.

The second event on the 8's was at Roebling Road for 8 sessions. The tires handled MUCH better this go round as I expected because they were like they had been shaved almost. They definitely took a beating there and I was concerned about getting another full event in.

The third event was at Barber Motorsport Park and they were doing OK but the first session, I had a 180º spin and I think I flat spotted them. Didn't know it at the time. I later thought I'd picked up tire boogers and caused a little bumpy ride. After checking, I didn't find any problems. However on the second day, I found they were flat spotted on the driver front, so that was the end of my event and the tires are done.

So, if I add up the sessions on them, I'd say I had 22. I don't think they are rated for that many heat cycles but honestly, I hoped for at least two more events. Granted, I am a bit aggressive now (I'm sure oddragger and peppy will chime in here.) so that could have a major bearing on it.

Now, I'm in the same boat you are and have to make a decision. To be honest... I'm freaking clueless! I do know, I will not be purchasing anymore R888's.

Road Atlanta is coming up next weekend and L8APEX is renting me his BFG set. Damn nice of him. I will be taking off for the summer and that will give me enough time for some of you guys to road rash your money and report back. :D

keeping the sunny side up ;) Wow that's a sad story with the R888s. I was thinking they were somewhat equalivalent to the Nittos, but I guess not. The Nittos are fine full thread 6/32 even brand new, you can beat the daylights out of them and they grip like no tomorrow.

But I'm glad you're getting a chance to try the BFG R1s :naughty: Those are seemingly the only other R-Comps that potentially could be a step up from the Nittos aside from Hoosiers. I'll be really interested in your opinions after you have 'rented them' (how does that work?). They seem similar to the Hoosiers (Tirerack's tests), but last longer and aren't so tempermental w/cording etc. Hopefully you can shed some reality on their characteristic. Although expensive, I'm at a point where I'd pay a bit extra for more grip, if they really provide that and don't have other bad characteristics.

L8APEX has a set of take-offs he picked up from a racer for pretty cheep. I think he has run them at two events. He thinks they may be good for one or two more events. So, I'll pay him the cost of mounting a new set when he gets ready to do that. Otherwise, I don't know how you would go about renting tires from someone. It just worked out for both of us. I'll report back and give you my opinion.

One thing that is going to be a factor though is that I will be stiffening up my settings on my Tein Flex's. I've been running pretty soft and now I want to crispin up the ride. It will effect the handling but I should still be able to get a good feel for what they can do.

EDIT:
There are plenty of drivers that love the R888's. I think some racers have to run them by specification of the org they are running with. I keep hearing Hoosier's the best tire. Hell, I don't know. I think I will do what L8APEX did and purchase take-offs.

One thing that is going to be a factor though is that I will be stiffening up my settings on my Tein Flex's. I've been running pretty soft and now I want to crispin up the ride. It will effect the handling but I should still be able to get a good feel for what they can do....

EDIT:
There are plenty of drivers that love the R888's. I think some racers have to run them by specification of the org they are running with. I keep hearing Hoosier's the best tire. Hell, I don't know. I think I will do what L8APEX did and purchase take-offs.

We'll if you're running BFG g-Force R1's that are well worn, you should have the best grip they can offer...a good test therefore.

Perhaps a setup thought...after much trial and error trying soft and hard....I've determined my best Cusco coilovers setup is full hard front 5 setting (of 1-5) and 4 for the rear. I set my adj sway bars 2 (of 1-2-3) both front rear. The slightly softer rear gives it a tad more grip and keeps it well planted even under extreme condition, and the car corners virtually flat with ultra crisp dynamic behavior. Other drivers even come and tell how flat I navigate the twistie bits after a session running with me....of course that means they were behind me :yelrotflm

My plan is to run these Tein Flex settings (manual):

Front: Rotate full hard and back off 4 clicks
Back: Rotate full hard and back off 6 clicks

Front sway: RB
Rear sway: OEM

I didn't like the RB rear stiffness so I went back o the OEM a long time ago.

yep i would say ole Silver has gotten a little more aggressive in his track driving:)
He has just about gotten to doing anything he wants with it.
One thing I like about the hoosiers is you can run a smaller size (they run large) and get the same grip as a bigger size other tire. Save weight that way.
OD

the new Goodyear Eagle-RS should be coming soon in some RX-8 sizes

Looks yummy...sizes are a bit sparse, no 255/40/17s no 265/35/18s.

Very interesting, thanks for the heads up.

I was at a NJ Porsche event w/perhaps 100 participants a couple weeks back & did an informal survey of R-Comp's on everyones cars looking for inspiration as to what to get next. It was 90% Porsche, 10% other cars. Here's what I found...

...noteably, most use Hoosier R6s or ...the MPSC (Pilot Sport Cup). Here's a typical car on Hoosiers...i.e., the $200,000 variety with spanking fresh rubber...

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff266/spin9k/gt3rs.jpg

...notice the "TireRack HeatCycle" stamp in this closeup...

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff266/spin9k/heatcycle.jpg

...I found one (1) that used BFG R-1s and a few using Nitto NT-01s..

..like yours truly...

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff266/spin9k/yourstruly.jpg

...there was a sprinkle of others R-Comps and quite a few just streetable/semi-track tires like... Falken, Toyo, Yokos, Cooper

It was dry one day and wet the next...the only event casuality was a very nice (originally) 911 on MPSCs pretty much barrel asssed into about 100 yds of armco :eek:

Being chicken I sat in the paddock most all that day on my NT-01 slicks :sad: ... but drove home in one piece :)


They had some Radical cars their for a demo driving day event complete with pit crews..:yumyum: some pics here http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?p=3090387#post3090387

I ended up cording (steel belt poking through) one of my BFG R1s after only three track days. Tires are 245/40/R18s.

All three days were at Gingerman Raceway which is notorious for chewing up left front tires. I have a stock suspension and mild performance alignment but only have about 1.5 degrees negative camber up front.

The first track day was a ton of track time (we had the track to ourselves all day) so that really counts as more than one track day.

I am a little disappointed, however, as I was hoping the tires would last longer.

^Do you think that if you flipped the tires you could have gotten a few more events out of them? Or were they pretty well worn down?

The R1's and RA1's are at the top of my list right now, just trying to decide which one to buy.

^Yikes! :sad: Couple things I can think of that might help next time. Obviously the stock suspension is way too soft and rolls too much, a combo of soft springs and wimpy anti-roll bars. Also the 245/40/18 tire is not best suited to an 8" wheel for track use.... that's more of the comfort combination for DD use.

From Tirerack the recommneded range for that size R1 is 8-9.5" with measured wheel size of of 8.5", meaning 8.5" would be the bare minimum acceptable for track, with 9-9.5" recommended. Without excellent sidewall support from the right-sized rim, it's just going to fold under. The 225/40/18 would be a better choice for stock rims and give some gearing advantage as well.

I'd say all those thing conspired to do your tire in, then the track too, but mainly the tire couldn't take the punishment! I've got 255/40/17 R1s coming in on Monday for my 9" Enkeis... when I get them to track...we'll see what happens ;)
Tirerack says 8.5-10" measured 9" rim size for them. I guess this is the only way to find out what works...burning up rubber on the track :rollingla ...expensive but fun!

Wow, I would be pissed if I only got 3 track events out of a set of tires. I have been using 245/40 NTO1's on a set of enkei gtco1 18/8.5/+30 wheels. The tires were used for 2 events before i purchased them, I have put 6 track days (2 hours on track time each) on them and I think I have 1-2 more left. I have very stiff suspension but only a moderatly aggressive alignment. The tires show very even wear.

^Do you think that if you flipped the tires you could have gotten a few more events out of them? Or were they pretty well worn down?

The R1's and RA1's are at the top of my list right now, just trying to decide which one to buy.

flipping them would have worked. Still plenty of tread left on the rest of the tire.

Also, running a little more tire pressure would have probably helped.

I was shooting for around 40 psi hot and perhaps a little more would have helped.

During the track weekend we also had a tank slapper and a spin and a couple of offs so that might not have been too good for the tires either.

Wow, I would be pissed if I only got 3 track events out of a set of tires. I have been using 245/40 NTO1's on a set of enkei gtco1 18/8.5/+30 wheels. The tires were used for 2 events before i purchased them, I have put 6 track days (2 hours on track time each) on them and I think I have 1-2 more left. I have very stiff suspension but only a moderatly aggressive alignment. The tires show very even wear.

I also almost destroyed a set of Hawk HT-10s brake pads over those three days. Thickness isn't much more than backing plate and one of the front pads is crumbling. I had also hoped the brake pads would last longer.

I'm not pissed though, it just highlights how much money this hobby costs. I'm seriously considering giving up track events to focus on car restoration instead. I have a 69 Jaguar E type that needs some TLC, so I'll probably start using my track funds for that.

flipping them would have worked. Still plenty of tread left on the rest of the tire.

Also, running a little more tire pressure would have probably helped.

I was shooting for around 40 psi hot and perhaps a little more would have helped.

During the track weekend we also had a tank slapper and a spin and a couple of offs so that might not have been too good for the tires either.

3 events for me on my R888's with one spin and "all in"! Actually, it was more like:
1 - 1 one event
1 - 2 day full weekend
1 - 1 3/4 day full weekend

So, less than 5 days. Most expensive tires I've ever purchased if you look at track time per dolor.

3 events for me on my R888's with one spin and "all in"! Actually, it was more like:
1 - 1 one event
1 - 2 day full weekend
1 - 1 3/4 day full weekend

So, less than 5 days. Most expensive tires I've ever purchased if you look at track time per dolor.

slow down,

save money. ?

just wondering. :)

see you the 25?

beers :beer:

Just wondering if you need a different setup to run full slicks(ie. stiffer)?

I ended up cording (steel belt poking through) one of my BFG R1s after only three track days. Tires are 245/40/R18s.

All three days were at Gingerman Raceway which is notorious for chewing up left front tires. I have a stock suspension and mild performance alignment but only have about 1.5 degrees negative camber up front.

The first track day was a ton of track time (we had the track to ourselves all day) so that really counts as more than one track day.

I am a little disappointed, however, as I was hoping the tires would last longer.

You were not running enough air. We have been using these on the SSC Nissan Sentra I have been road racing, four races (plus practice and qual) on the same set. This fwd car has to weigh 3100lbs at the end of the race and has zero negative camber, and we can not kill these tires.

We start at 40f/60r cold - yes 60psi rear, its the only way to get the fwd pig to rotate.

http://myscca.com/photo/250/2009/06/12/727736114d121ad9efdd07ff576_4.jpg

In the August '09 Grassroots Motorsports there's an interesting story where they test an RX-8 with two different tires on the stock wheels to see whether wider is better - 1st the favorite Hoosier 285/30-18 and second a new size available recently - the 255/35-18. Guess which won w/the best track time..?

Give up yet? ... Hint: less tire, go faster

Results may be astounding to some and went (not an exact quote) like this...

"A tire that feels good, secure, and fast seat-of-the-pants on track may not really be the fastest, and one that is the fastest may not feel good or fast...so best leave the subjective judgements aside and use objective measurements to discover what actually gives the quickest times."

I'm not especially keen on how the 255's wear on the front.

In the August '09 Grassroots Motorsports there's an interesting story where they test an RX-8 with two different tires on the stock wheels to see whether wider is better - 1st the favorite Hoosier 285/30-18 and second a new size available recently - the 255/35-18. Guess which won w/the best track time..?

Give up yet? ... Hint: less tire, go faster

Results may be astounding to some and went (not an exact quote) like this...

"A tire that feels good, secure, and fast seat-of-the-pants on track may not really be the fastest, and one that is the fastest may not feel good or fast...so best leave the subjective judgements aside and use objective measurements to discover what actually gives the quickest times."

The Hoosier A6 test was done earlier this Spring, here's an update I posted on another thread after playing outside the box for a few events and test & tunes. 285 Front, 255 Rear :naughty:

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=3097510&postcount=16

Chris H
aka Trent@Tirerack.com

The Hoosier A6 test was done earlier this Spring, here's an update I posted on another thread after playing outside the box for a few events and test & tunes. 285 Front, 255 Rear :naughty:


so, what we have here is a definite "maybe"? :evil_laug

so, what we have here is a definite "maybe"? :evil_laug

Actually, I was reading it as "YMMV" ;)

I still believe it comes down to who is "on" for the specific event/day...245, 285, 255...whatever.

driving style does influence tear wear greatly also--lets not for get that.:)
OD

It's OK Denny, you can use me as your example. :D:

Lol---no i wasnt thinking of you--but come to think of it...........:):SHOCKED:
What I was thinking about is the driver that trys to drive out of understeer with just more steering input, seriously overdriving , not paying attention to air pressors or proper rim size, not rotating their tires and last but not least those that dont properly store them.
OD

I have a set of 275/35-R18 Toyo R888s on Enkei RP-F1 18x9.5s. Tires+rims weighed in at 45.0# each, compared to 46.5# for Bridgestone S-03 Pole Positions in stock size on stock rims (my scale, actual weights).

The tires are a huge improvement over the UH-perf summer tire at the track. I have 4 days (~14 session?) on them, and the outside ones are now below the wear bars (starting unshaven/full depth).

Gratuitous track video (YouTube) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXO5hZKDeEA)

In the video above, the only non-race-prepped cars that were running faster that day at the track that I am aware of were a Porsche 911 Turbo and a Cayman S with Nitto NT-01s, and an Elise with Hoosiers (WHRRI is a grip-limited track, extra HP doesn't buy you much). The Porsche owners were very happy with their NT-01s, saying that they are cheap and wear well.

The tires provide plenty of warning of when they are about to let go, and do it in a very recoverable manner. I have had a lot of "rolling" (chunking?) of the treads into the grooving on the tires, which has contributed significantly to their wearing. I have not noticed any issues with overheating the tires, from the standpoint of reduced grip during sessions. This rolling of the tread has lead to non-uniform wearing of the tires across the tread.

My biggest complaint with this tire/wheel combo is rubbing on the fender lips on the back under hard cornering. I have the Mazdaspeed shocks/springs/sways, so the car is ~1/2" lower than stock.

Spec Miata is running R888s this year (2009). From the few drivers I have talked to, none of them like the tires. This may be that they are just too new and they don't know the fastest way to run them (shaved, reversed, pressures, etc.), or that they are not a good tire for that light of a car, or Spec Miata drivers are just whiny. The complaints ran from lower lap times than the RA1s, to increased wear/fewer sessions on a set. Take this with a grain of salt.

http://www.gerhardstein.net/picturestokeep/RX8WHRRI.jpg

joe love your trackmate set up.
shave the tires if you can--you will be glad you did.
olddragger

I have a set of 275/35-R18 Toyo R888s on Enkei RP-F1 18x9.5s. Tires+rims weighed in at 45.0# each, compared to 46.5# for Bridgestone S-03 Pole Positions in stock size on stock rims (my scale, actual weights).

In comparison the 17" Enkei RRF1s with new 255/40-17 BFG R1s weigh in at 38.8lbs...one of the reasons I'm liking 17s over 18s.

I have had a lot of "rolling" (chunking?) of the treads into the grooving on the tires, which has contributed significantly to their wearing. I have not noticed any issues with overheating the tires, from the standpoint of reduced grip during sessions. This rolling of the tread has lead to non-uniform wearing of the tires across the tread.

This was an issue with my NT-01s too... outside 1/2 tire worn clean, inside 1/3 covered with crap rubber strings - I guess that's chunking? ..not sure.

My biggest complaint with this tire/wheel combo is rubbing on the fender lips on the back under hard cornering. I have the Mazdaspeed shocks/springs/sways, so the car is ~1/2" lower than stock.

...just roll the fender a bit, easy with the correct tool...problem solved.

Spec Miata is running R888s this year (2009). From the few drivers I have talked to, none of them like the tires. This may be that they are just too new and they don't know the fastest way to run them (shaved, reversed, pressures, etc.), or that they are not a good tire for that light of a car, or Spec Miata drivers are just whiny. The complaints ran from lower lap times than the RA1s, to increased wear/fewer sessions on a set. Take this with a grain of salt.

W/R88s, quick wear and greasiness in session seem to be the major concerns that matter (noise was also mentioned) but none on RX-8, perhaps heavier cars have these issues more. Those that I've actually spoken with seem to like them a lot. OTOH, there was a guy at the last track day I attended that spun out/went off course a half dozen times wR888s :eek:....I learned to avoid being near him ... and esp. close behind him.

I never liked the 8's and have no desire to ever put another set on my wheels again. I need to get a used one to finish up the good rubber on the 3 that are still trackable for maybe one event.

shave the tires if you can--you will be glad you did.
olddragger

I'm too cheap. If shaving means I run 1 less day with the tires, then it is 1 day sooner that I need to buy new ones :rolleyes: I'm not running competitions, so I don't need the last 1/10th of 1%.

Point taken, however. Any idea how thick the rubber is between full-slick R888s and the cords? I'm probably at the point where I need to inside-out the tires on the rims before going back to the track...

love your trackmate set up.

Thanks. A buddy of mine in Atlanta owns the company. It is unbelievably helpful to be able to go back and watch individual corners of a track to find the fastest way around.

In comparison the 17" Enkei RRF1s with new 255/40-17 BFG R1s weigh in at 38.8lbs...one of the reasons I'm liking 17s over 18s.

The other parts of the equation are sidewall stiffness (proportional to height of sidewall, as a first-order approximation) and contact patch (the 275 having a wider contact patch than the 255). However, short of running a number of combinations on the same car and track and looking for lap time improvements, I'm not sure there is an easy way to choose what is the correct setup.

...just roll the fender a bit, easy with the correct tool...problem solved.

Yes, I ended up doing that. However, if you ever have any intention of running in SCCA Stock class, this is a no-no, and much more difficult to fix than taking your cold-air intake back off.

OTOH, there was a guy at the last track day I attended that spun out/went off course a half dozen times wR888s :eek:....I learned to avoid being near him ... and esp. close behind him.

Just as likely he didn't have the correct pressure in the tires. I have had one off-track excursion with the R888s (sorry, no video of it). At least in the RX-8, they give enough warning and are easy enough to bring back from the edge that I have not repeated that incident :shocking:

Spec Miata is running R888s this year (2009). From the few drivers I have talked to, none of them like the tires. This may be that they are just too new and they don't know the fastest way to run them (shaved, reversed, pressures, etc.), or that they are not a good tire for that light of a car, or Spec Miata drivers are just whiny. The complaints ran from lower lap times than the RA1s, to increased wear/fewer sessions on a set. Take this with a grain of salt.



Toyo is putting the 205-50-15 RA1 back in to production, as SM is back on the RA1 for 2010.

If anyone is looking for r-comps and is considering the nitto nt-01's, I shopped around and the best deal I found for QTY-4 275/35/18 was $960 delivered from www.hubcaphouseunlimited.com, they dont list the nt-01's on their website but they sell them on their ebay store. If you call or e-mail them they will beat there ebay price by $20+.

Also, I might be putting some lightly used 245/40/18 nt-01's up for sale here soon. They sale the 245/40/18 new for QTY-4 $850 delivered.

Why are you selling, IOW, how did the 245/40/18s work for you? ...why are you going wider did you get those 9.5" track wheels you were looking for?

Why are you selling, IOW, how did the 245/40/18s work for you? ...why are you going wider did you get new wheels?

Yes i got new wheels 18X9.5 +45MM rpf1. I have been very happy with the 245/40/18 nt-01's. They provided a lot of grip and I had very even tire wear.

If anyone is looking for r-comps and is considering the nitto nt-01's, I shopped around and the best deal I found for QTY-4 275/35/18 was $960 delivered from www.hubcaphouseunlimited.com, they dont list the nt-01's on their website but they sell them on their ebay store. If you call or e-mail them they will beat there ebay price by $20+.

Also, I might be putting some lightly used 245/40/18 nt-01's up for sale here soon. They sale the 245/40/18 new for QTY-4 $850 delivered.

Actually there is a place where you can get the 275's for around $880 shipped :)

Actually there is a place where you can get the 275's for around $880 shipped :)

Where is that? I have not paid for mine yet so I would love to save some money.

^You have a PM.

Anybody ever use the 275/35/18 Hoosier Koni tires on a set of 18X9.5 +45MM wheels? I am getting my wheels in about a month and I have been shopping around for tires. I came accross a few lightly used ( 1-2 heat cycle) hoosier r6 tires and koni tires. From what I have read, the koni tires have a little wider tread width and they also recommend a 10" wheel, while the r6 recommend a 9.5. I have also heard the koni tires last longer but dont have as much grip.

The grip I am not worried about, as either are going to have tons, but my biggest concerns are the wheel size and clearance. I dont want them to rub.

I would appreciate first hand experiance or educated guesses. Thanks

^ You'll probably get better responses if you list the type of events you plan to use these tires for - autocross, track events, etc.

^ You'll probably get better responses if you list the type of events you plan to use these tires for - autocross, track events, etc.

I am sorry, I figured because said r6 and the koni tires that I it would obvious that I will be using them on a road course. The r6's are not great on autocross and the koni tires would take even longer to heat up.

But to be more specific I do track days/hpde at thunderhill raceway in willows california and will be running infinion raceway in sonoma and maybe laguna seca too, 20-30 minute runs.

Plus I am mostly concerned with the tire clearance.

you dont mention what you are using for shocks springs or coilovers, but unless you have some sort of crazy drop you should be fine.

beers :beer:


I am sorry, I figured because said r6 and the koni tires that I it would obvious that I will be using them on a road course. The r6's are not great on autocross and the koni tires would take even longer to heat up.

But to be more specific I do track days/hpde at thunderhill raceway in willows california and will be running infinion raceway in sonoma and maybe laguna seca too, 20-30 minute runs.

Plus I am mostly concerned with the tire clearance.

you dont mention what you are using for shocks springs or coilovers, but unless you have some sort of crazy drop you should be fine.

beers :beer:

I had just created a signature with all that info but I forgot to click the button for it to show up. Its there now.

KW Variant 3 coilovers with approx a 1" drop, corner balanced. Progress Tech sway bars. I was running nt-01's on a 18X8.5 +30MM wheel before with no problem.

hoosiers run wider than others? no experience with them.
Actually more and more people are discovering that a small tire can make you faster at times.
I have run 17's and the big 18's --weight for each with in a few pounds of each other.
I liked the responsiveness of the smaller 17's (235 hoosiers) versus the bigger 275 nittos, the gear reduction is also nice.
The smaller tire does give up just a little in a high speed turn -- on the mid and exit, but it makes up for it in acceleration and transitions.
just my 2 cents.
OD

you're comparing 235 Hoosiers to 275 Nittos and you think it's the size difference that's counting??????

put 285/30-18 Hoosiers on there and then let's see ....

So team, to answer my question, 275/35/18 hoosier koni's should have no size problem? And you would think that is a good tire selction?

I have to agree, compairing 235 hoosiers vs 275 nitto's and deciding its the size/weight that made you faster is not fair. First the 235 hoosiers are about 20 lbs vs 26 for the nittos, (the 245 nitto is 24 for the record and the 275 hoosier is around 22). I would bet that a 245 hoosier has as much grip as a 275 nitto. Put the 275/35 hoosier on there or the 285/30 for autocross and see what happens. Or if you really think its the size, put 245 nittos on there see what happens. In fact I have a set of 245/40/18 nitto nt-01's up for sale right now, 5/32nds tread remaining $400 plus shipping. or a free set (plus shipping) that has 1/32nds.

the bad thing about the 275 is it's a bit tall, but with only a 1" drop on 9.5" +45 you should be fine for fitment

I run the Hoosier 285 and 295 sizes on 8" wheels without issue

Thanks, I know others run the nt-01's and 888's with a 275/35/18 on a 18X9.5 +45 but witht he hoosiers running wide I was a little concerned. Worst case, I will just have to roll the fenders a little or dial in some extra negitive camber.

I know what yall are saying thats why I said I dont have any experience with that size hoosier.
My post was more about the size of wheel/tire/wgt combo than about the brand of tire. Hoosiers by far are a better overall grip tire, than the nittos period.
Just remember for the road track it is possible that you can go too big (just as you can be too small) on the tire/wheel and the end result is that it will make you slower. I believe a recent issue of Grassroots magazine there was an article about this very thing(on a rx8). They compared lap times to different sizes of the same tire. Look it up. If i remember right they used the new 255 hoosie during one of the runs.

I wish the hoosie would talk to ya more than it does:)
OD

nope, shouldn't even be that close to the lip

Thanks.

I'll take my 255/40/17s with a soft-chewy center :mdrmed: , and oh yes...I want the diet special please.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff266/spin9k/chewycenter.jpg

blow us a bubble?:)
OD

Update time - Finally got the (above) BFG R1s to Watkins Glen. Was last there maybe 4 yrs ago on 235/40/18 RT615s, so no direct r-comp comparison on this track. But to come full circle to my OP here are thoughts in general to other tracks run with the NT-01s I just took off and the RT-615s used a couple years ago.

Only other change from running the NT-01s is alignment - went from -1.6 front/-2 rear camber to -2 all the way around.

Pressure

NT-01 - mid 40s hot
R1 - 38-39 hot (recommendation from BFG)
RT-615 - 40 something, can't remember


Noise and ride:

NT-01 - Never squealed, only growled a bit at the point they went into understeer mode if pushed too hard on fast corners. Comfortable on the street, fairly quiet. New they sounded like snow tires (not bad), but this lessened over time with wear.

R1 - Squealed readily if you pinch the turn in, but didn't let go. Release the wheel and noise stops. At the the limits I took the car, there was no other noises. On the street, no noise, ride was hard, and if parked hot off the track for even 10 minutes without driving, severe heat flat spotting, as they cool making a weird 'square tire' ride for a mile or two until it even out again.

RT-615 - Squealed like a pig at the slightest provocation under track stress. Good ride, no noise on the street or track otherwise.

Grip:

NT-01 - Good r-comp level grip. Easy handling, benign recovery at the limits. I could never get them to their high temp range of ~200+ deg. Understeer at the limit, either unwind or slow down.

R1 - Excellent r-comp grip. Compared to my rememberences of the "scariness" of various turns, now the car was not "scary", but seems to be on rails and there was no drama, the car simply did what was asked. Growing confidence over the day impressed me as this is major to good track use for me.

Particulars concerning performance on Watkins Glen's turns for those that know the track:

- I'd spun in T1 before, not much fun. Always downshifted to 3rd after braking before entry. Now I stayed in 4th, braked somewhat less, then turn in was immediate and I felt in control, got a little squeal, but unwound and went flat out immediately without drama.

- T2,T3, T4 (the Esses) flat out no problem. Before this was pretty much the same, but with the extra speed thru T1, I got an amazing slingshot effect to fly by others after T4 on the straight.

- the bus stop was now just a game to see just how fast I could go thru it, I was not braking as much to scrub speed, The chaine itself turned into a big arc that was a turn I could accelerate a bit thru. Before it was a challenge to settle the car after the big braking, then get thru it as the car was unstable and on edge.

- T6 I'm working on it but later apex and power on was possible and seemed to work.

- T7 was a power on exercise, grabbing and sliding up the hill.

- T9 was better, still a bit of a challenge

- T10 flat out, T11 brake and go.

RT-615 - Not bad for a street tire, good grip and benign handling on track. But heats up w/hard use and then totally looses grip - as in terminal understeer straight ahead. You must slow down to cool and regain any grip at that point. Otherwise a nice track tire for novice/occasional use.

Wear:

NT-01 - I couldn't wear these out. Lots of rtack days. Wear was not even, inside wearing far less than outside, and major chunking

R1 - Unknown - wear is minimal at this point w/3hrs use.

RT-615 - wear was even and tires lasted farily long, no chunking (big rubber strands balling up on the tread in areas less used).

After calming down from the w.e.'s excitment, I've been reliving the sessions, mostly before falling asleep this week. It's all vaguely clear to me. The BFG R1s did truly exceed the performance of the Nitto NT-01s...like a good beer, and an excellent beer. Being new tires favors them, but the impression of more absolute grip, more direct steering response stands out. I'll need more than 3 hrs to trust them completely, but no vices yet.

Next weekend I'm at Tremblant, so as well as wanting to push harder .... I get the fun now of visualizing ways of knocking seconds off my best lap .... imagining better exit speeds and less braking in my imagination. More to come.

nice write!

beers :beer:

Well the Nitto compound is closer to a street than a true R compound (100 TWR) so no surprise there

He was running the nt-01 at mid 40 PSI hot which was probably not helping either. For me about 38 PSI hot provides the best grip.

He was running the nt-01 at mid 40 PSI hot which was probably not helping either. For me about 38 PSI hot provides the best grip.

Pressure was always an unknown point with the NT-01s. Lower pressure seemed to make them feel underinflated, insecure...higher was more responsive. Right or wrong mid 40s seemed right to me.

The BFGs give real track pressure advice...something that helps take the guesswork out - something not available fromt Nitto. I recorded my pressures cold to hot at 32.5 everywhere cold; 38.5 FL 37.5 other corners. I had to let some air from FL as well to keep it at 38.5. Still once set, relatively stable pressures. I was surprised how nice the lower pressure worked.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff266/spin9k/r1a.jpg

From this...

... increasing front tire pressure reduces turn-in understeer
... increasing rear tire pressure adds cornering grip

I have to conclude that they are encouraging higher tire pressures front & back for best grip. Likewise that would logically increase both lateral and vertical stiffness. I'm not sure I understand the real +/- effect that vertical and lateral stiffness plays in on-track performance? Is it related to smooth track/rough track capabilities or ???. Seems like the trick to improving grip on a smooth track would be easy - just increase the pressures up in the range?

Spin9k with those tires I think you should be able to break the sub 2 min at Tremblant. That would be sweet. Keep me posted.

That's one of the goals for the event....love to get it to 1:55 (from 2:03), but we all know how dear those last few seconds become :hahano: What'll be easier is a direct comparison from a handling perspective to the NT-01s, since I know that track running with those like the back of my hand. Exit speed...exit speed...ummm

So did you achieve the 1:55 If those tires can make up that much time vs the nitto's I'm sold

In short, no, only managed consistent 2:04 times :p:

But there are some extenuating circumstances ...aka excuses I'll offer ;)

... Tires needed to be (according to BFG) at 160-220 deg range...but due to the cold damp weather and therefore track I never saw more than 120+ deg and often more like 100 deg in the tires back in the pits. At WG 2 wks ago (also cool) I was seeing 140+ .... so somewhat better. So tires never got to best working temp ... and I'm sticking with that story :yelrotflm

On the other hand, now that I've done two different tracks with the R1s I can, with confidence, say they are the best tires I've had on the car yet. The NT-01s were fine tires, great on the track, but these offer more grip, later breakaway, and more precision. Basically, even more of the goodness the NT-01s have plus some extra finesse the Nitto didn't possess..

How can I describe in words the difference? Using MT as an example as you're familar with it.... well, everything I asked the car to do on track, it did with less effort, less drama. Where I might have had to work to finesse a tricky feeling turn (T2 or T10), now the car simply tracks through. T10 I stopped downshifting to 3rd, just powered thru in 4th off the straight. The difficult transitions of (T4/T5) are dispatched with a turn or two of the steering wheel. T7 held little difficulty now, esp. with a bit of late apex so I can just quickly power on through with a slingshot effect to the straight and T8.

T8 itself was a real blast, after braking not so much as usual, I was back on the power (full to the floor) either at or even before the apex. Picture full power down around that 180deg turn and that's how much grip the tires had, and still some left over as it was so easy and fun to do. That extra speed brought my 90mph 3rd-4th shift point back considerably to just after T8's exit rather than nearer T9.

You know how the NT-01s in corners tend to track the rear out? I think they have relatively high slip angles at the limit. That was gone with the R1s.

If you want to see this play out watch this last session of the weekend and notice the points and places on the track I mention during each lap. Repeatedly I could fly up on the other cars during some of these critical points. It was really amazingly fun! At this point in the weekend, most of these guys were just letting me fly by

http://vimeo.com/6945270


Starting as the 1st lap yellow goes down at turn 14 you can easily see the result, no one passed me the whole session, I was flying! The vid is a bit long at 21 minutes, but notice that even in this advanced and instructor group, the speeds I could get in the straights let be fly up each successive cars back. I think these new R1s have added the final crowning touch to my momentum track toy - ultimate grip levels! :evil_laug

I think these new R1s have added the final crowning touch to my momentum track toy - ultimate grip levels! :evil_laug
:beerchug:
The BFG's really do transform the car. I had done about 25 track days with my car on street tires (stock Bridgestones, Falken Azenis, Kumho's, Bridgstone S03's) so I was used to driving the car hard and near the limit. The R comps really help to expand that limit.

My instructor (a notorious hotshoe that is crazy enough to race full stage rally) described the cornering ability as "Kung Fu Grip". He speculated that we were taking one of the turns faster than any other car all weekend (including the instructors, some with fully prepped cars). He said for this particular turn, he wanted to shout for me to brake more each time but he just bit his lip and held on and was amazed that we were about to make it through so fast.

RX-8 + alignment + BFG R1's = Kung Fu Grip

I finaly made it to the track with my new track tire set up. Thunderhill raceway in willows california. New set up: RPF1 18X9.5 +45 with hoosier koni series tires 275/35/18. I never got around to weighing them but the wheels are supposed to be 17.4 LBS and the tires are 21.7 lbs for a total weight of 39.1LBS. This is an 8LB per wheel reduction from my last track set up (245/40/18 nt-01's on enkei gtc01 18X8.5 +30).

I had nitrogen put in the tires and started out with a cold pressure of 38PSI all the way around and the pressures on went up by 3-4 in the front and 2-3 psi in the rear. I lowered the right sides down a little and my hot pressures stayed around 39-40 all day.

Comparing 245/40/18 nt-01's to the 275/35/18 hoosiers: Thunderhill 3 mile course. previous best lap 2:16.
From the first lap I could feel the increased grip, I ran 2 seconds faster then my previous best on my very first lap and I had no tire squeal or over/under steer. As the day progressed and I learned the limits of the tires I was able to take another 3 seconds off for a total of 5 seconds off my previous best and that was with a 200LB passenger in the car. I believe with no passenger and some additional practice 2-3 seconds could come off my times.

I run a camara in the car and upon reviewing the film I found that 4 of the 5 seconds I shaved off was on the front side of the course which is 90% turns. only 1 second was removed from the high speed portion of the track. I also found that in the highspeed turns my exits speeds were virtualy the same and most of the time I did shave off was from later brakeing. With my previous tires I was activating the ABS very easily, with the wider hoosiers I only occasionaly activated the ABS. The highspeed portion of the track is where I feel I have room for the most improvment. I need to trust the tires on the highspeed turns and increase my entry speeds. On the tighter slower portion of the track i was pushing the tires in almost every turn and finding the limit was mush easier.

Conclusion: I love 275 hoosiers and lightweight wheels.

Good writeup Hw8...I'd be interested to hear more on how those wide 275s wear over time and how many sessions you get from them. Gotta love sticky tires! Keep us posted.